Two simple rules to improve results.

[Claude Rouelle]

Naoh,

Not necessarily last year part but in any case a Plan B and ideally a Plan C. For each car part.

Claude

[Z]

Kevin,

In a small competition a decent strategy is to focus on reliability and wait for the others to fail.

That is, in fact, the strategy that Steven Bradbury's (very cunning Chinese!) coach used.



I reckon Wollongong's Oz-2016 win was pretty much the same thing.

Which raises another point, "If you ain't in it, you can't win it."

Methinks you guys at ECU missed a great opportunity there at Oz-2016!
~~~o0o~~~

JT A.

Z,
...if your management / motivational ideas were any good,...

The motivational approach I posted above is the guaranteed-good way of getting the best results. That is why it is always used whenever there is an overwhelming NECESSITY for those results.

But today there is an over-abundance of food, so no real necessity for anything. So hordes of useless teams in FS/FSAE that bring cars that fall apart on the start line. Or before.

Obvious, really.

Z



(PS. Kev, also found this one, which I thought you might like. )

[StefStam]

If you want to walk, firstly you need to run a bit

[lctromnml]

Will,

Need OUTSIDE pressure to succeed? I have employees who build pressure for themselves, on their own. THAT is Inside-Out solution. These are people who know that if they are not part of the solution they are part of the problem. If I build pressure on them that is because something is going wrong and thankfully that should and is not happening very often.

You got side track in your management analysis. If you think you need pre-mini events to build pressure so that you car becomes reliable in real competitions, then I feel there is a great chance you and your team need to first create some abilities to believe and yourself/themselves and from there create a action plan.

Again 10 endurance runs without any failure on your own test track. Then you can get out and face the world with much, much more confidence. Any pre-event with other teams (mandatory or informal) before that would be a waste of time, energy and focus.

You are right FSAE/FS design judges do not change: we need to continuously tell some students (or ex-students) like you to kick your own butt!.

Create your own structure and your own incentives. Do not wait for somebody else to do it for you.

I think "pre-mini-events" are important for having a successful season. What's it worth to run 10 or even 50 endurance runs on the test track, if your car is not rules compliant and you then start to make significant changes on the "real events"?
This is exactly what happens to many teams at FSG each year. Several teams missed one or more dynamic disciplines and only 6 (!!) electric teams were able to finish the endurance. At least 4 of those teams that finished attended at least one "pre-mini-event".

Despite the advantage, that you already had a scrutineering and can make the changes to get the car fully rules compliant before the "real events", the whole team learns the structure and the procedures of an event.
The next big advantage is, that you can estimate the performance of your car much better and then adjust the focus of what has to be done. If you run against some of the best teams mid of june and have 5s off-pace, you should focus in the performance. If the speed is good, you can focus on reliability.

My team attends at least the ZF Racecamp almost every year. In the 4 years I am with the team now, we missed it only once and this year was the worst of our team's history. The guys from Delft travel more than 600km every year, just for this "pre-mini-event".
And you can regularly see, that teams that perform good at these pre-events also perform well on the real events. We also use this event as a team building. There are always some team members who continue working twice as hard after returning from the race camp.

In comparison to the industry, you have no possibility to make pressure on the manufacturers that you are highly dependent on. In every season, there are some parts that are delayed 4-6 weeks and these are often parts (e.g. planetary gearbox) where you cannot have a Plan B or C or D.
It's often difficult enough to find anybody who is able to manufacture the part. My experience is, that a pressure from outside can help a lot. We just tell the new team members that the first event is at date X and the car has to be running until then, so they have to plan their season that everything is finished one month earlier.
This is way easier than telling that there is an imaginary date X where the car needs to be running in order to have a successful season. Those are still students in their first or second year and not experienced engineers.

[Claude Rouelle]

Whoever you are Mr. lctromnml (not worth to introduce yourself?....)

I somewhat agree with you on the pre-inspection training...but...

I am not qualified to give you a clear opinion on inspection, other people know this exercise better than me, but what I know is that often the issues met in inspection are due to either a lack of knowledge of the rules by students and/or some procrastination of the students to ask the rule committee (the rule committee, not the FSAE forum!) questions that would eliminate their doubts on some specific matters.
Also I am not sure that all car issues that will be spot by official scrutineers at FS / FSAE events will necessarily spotted by "amateur" scrutineers.

What I can also tell you is that in Formula Bharat (Bharat is the former name of India) students have to send dozens of pictures ahead of time of all car details including pictures of templates inserted in the chassis. They also have to send a video of the car starting on its own, accelerating, braking, locking all 4 wheels in braking and the driver exiting the car in less than 5 seconds. I am proud to say that I initiated this process. Pictures and videos are analyzed by experienced judges and scrutineers and the team are aware of issue to be fixed ahead of the competition.
It makes the job of scrutineers and students easier. Indian FS car are still way behind in terms of performance and reliability but their slope of progress is the best I know. I am sure these pictures / video submission as well as coaching from several design and cost judges as help the Indian students.

Student Formula Japan has the same procedure although less intense. Their percentage of endurance finish is the best. They sacrifice innovation for reliability. I bet the documents submission is part of their car reliability reasons.

Now you will ask why aren't other organizers doing this? I do not know; you have to ask them. I did it for Formula Bharat because we (students, organizers, judges) got in several informal conversations on how Indian FS cars design and performance and reliability could be improved and I gave my suggestions. They were definitely the the kind of team that need the most guidance. Maybe it will come a time that such guidance won't be necessary at least for experienced teams.

But there is also a limit of the pre-event assistance that the organizers have to give to students. Students are supposed to be responsible adults and should be able to take themselves by the hand. It is their initiative that will make a good and reliable car.

What about getting around your car (this year car, last year car, next year car drawings) with all team members and objectively and unemotionally ask yourself what could go wrong in tech or in reliability. And come with an action plan.

There will be more results coming from that inside-out approach than an outside-in pre-event "solutions". But that requires communication, leadership, ownership. objectivity and honesty. That is the less visible cause where the great team are getting their performance from. They have learnt how to stop whining and start winning.

*****

Coming back to the initial topic of this thread: shame on you, on your children and on the children of your children for the next 20 generations if you show up at any FS / FSAE event with a car that weights more that 200 Kg.

[tromoly]

Coming back to the initial topic of this thread: shame on you, on your children and on the children of your children for the next 20 generations if you show up at any FS / FSAE event with a car that weights more that 200 Kg.

Back in 2013 we had a car weigh 460 pounds / 208 kg, shame on us.

That same car is one of only two times in the last decade that school has finished every single event at Michigan, and we placed low-50s overall. Shame on us?

The problem isn't as simple as saying "too much weight!" or "test more!", there's lots of internal things (knowledge transfer, school limitations, student involvement) that cause cars to fail that is never apparent. Some school will never change and are content with building cars that would look right at home in 1993 competitions, it's just the way it is.

[Claude Rouelle]

I do not see any reason why a team that made a car at 208 Kg in 2013 could not make car at 200 Kg (440 pounds) or less in 2017. Can't lose 8 kg in 4 years? Take a subscription to weight watcher!

[Will M]

Will,

Need OUTSIDE pressure to succeed? I have employees who build pressure for themselves, on their own. THAT is Inside-Out solution. These are people who know that if they are not part of the solution they are part of the problem. If I build pressure on them that is because something is going wrong and thankfully that should and is not happening very often.

You got side track in your management analysis. If you think you need pre-mini events to build pressure so that you car becomes reliable in real competitions, then I feel there is a great chance you and your team need to first create some abilities to believe and yourself/themselves and from there create a action plan.

Again 10 endurance runs without any failure on your own test track. Then you can get out and face the world with much, much more confidence. Any pre-event with other teams (mandatory or informal) before that would be a waste of time, energy and focus.

You are right FSAE/FS design judges do not change: we need to continuously tell some students (or ex-students) like you to kick your own butt!.

Create your own structure and your own incentives. Do not wait for somebody else to do it for you.

No need for the belligerent tone; it is counter productive and has shut down this discussion.

We cannot even agree what success is in FSAE.
Simply honestly consider: Why do students participate in FSAE?
I think you will find that the internal goals of FSAE teams and students are not aligned with the goals of the FSAE leadership.
So yes, in this case external pressure is required to readjust their priorities.

Bye,
William

[noah]

I think "pre-mini-events" are important for having a successful season. What's it worth to run 10 or even 50 endurance runs on the test track, if your car is not rules compliant and you then start to make significant changes on the "real events"?
This is exactly what happens to many teams at FSG each year. Several teams missed one or more dynamic disciplines and only 6 (!!) electric teams were able to finish the endurance. At least 4 of those teams that finished attended at least one "pre-mini-event".

Despite the advantage, that you already had a scrutineering and can make the changes to get the car fully rules compliant before the "real events", the whole team learns the structure and the procedures of an event.
The next big advantage is, that you can estimate the performance of your car much better and then adjust the focus of what has to be done. If you run against some of the best teams mid of june and have 5s off-pace, you should focus in the performance. If the speed is good, you can focus on reliability.

My team attends at least the ZF Racecamp almost every year. In the 4 years I am with the team now, we missed it only once and this year was the worst of our team's history. The guys from Delft travel more than 600km every year, just for this "pre-mini-event".
And you can regularly see, that teams that perform good at these pre-events also perform well on the real events. We also use this event as a team building. There are always some team members who continue working twice as hard after returning from the race camp.

In comparison to the industry, you have no possibility to make pressure on the manufacturers that you are highly dependent on. In every season, there are some parts that are delayed 4-6 weeks and these are often parts (e.g. planetary gearbox) where you cannot have a Plan B or C or D.
It's often difficult enough to find anybody who is able to manufacture the part. My experience is, that a pressure from outside can help a lot. We just tell the new team members that the first event is at date X and the car has to be running until then, so they have to plan their season that everything is finished one month earlier.
This is way easier than telling that there is an imaginary date X where the car needs to be running in order to have a successful season. Those are still students in their first or second year and not experienced engineers.

Ictromnml,

How many parts are you guys having someone else manufacture? I understand maybe if you are buying something with a long lead time like wheels or differential components, but normally that lead time is accounted for when ordering. On another note, I think the ability for teams to be able to attend a mini-event says a lot more about their funding than anything else. I agree with Claude on his points regarding inspections. Going to a pre event isn't really feasible for my team. Even if it was, I would argue that it would be much better to spend the days/money related to traveling on hard testing back at home base (for my team at least).

Noah

[JulianH]

Love the conversation!

A couple of points:
Noah,
why is a Pre-Event not possible for you? Just make your "own" Pre-Event. We did that at least twice before the first competition every year.
Just spend some time with Alumni scrutineering the car, run through a Design Event and Presentation and then take the Car through every discipline. It helps.

Claude,
we cannot optimize for all things. And it seems you are suggesting this.
Yes, running a car in 10 enduros before every competition is a nice thing. But nearly all members from eg. Zurich are new every year. So a) we cannot push all deadlines much earlier, otherwise we would build the same car every year and b) they need to "feel" the pressure of an event otherwise mistakes happen.
We usually see a massive improvement in "team performance" and "game time genes" at the second event compared to the first one.(That's why we always went for FSUK before FSG and FSA...).
You cannot "practice" these things properly. And here we are not the Audi's and Porsche's of this world that have experience in these situations.

A pre-event helps best possible to simulate this scenario and that's why we always pushed to make the ZF Race Camp. Travelling a day to Friedrichshafen was always worth it! Don't know why anyone would have a problem with this. Gas for the team for this trip should not make or break your budget...

I like the picture stuff from India. Don't know if we have enough manpower in scrutineers to handle e.g. FSG with those pictures.