SURVEY: FSAE Team Rights

[Nate Notta]

We are currently struggling unsuccesfully to obtain more rights as a team (see the survey to see which ones I am talking about)... so I want to get an idea of how many teams are just like us, or are better off than us.

Thanks, the results will be interesting!
Check here to see if your team has been spoken for:
http://www.opinionpower.com/textResults.cgi?id=821019495
And fill it out:
http://www.opinionpower.com/Surveys/821019495.html
And see the current results:
http://www.opinionpower.com/results.cgi?id=821019495

Nate

[Nate Notta]

We are currently struggling unsuccesfully to obtain more rights as a team (see the survey to see which ones I am talking about)... so I want to get an idea of how many teams are just like us, or are better off than us.

Thanks, the results will be interesting!
Check here to see if your team has been spoken for:
http://www.opinionpower.com/textResults.cgi?id=821019495
And fill it out:
http://www.opinionpower.com/Surveys/821019495.html
And see the current results:
http://www.opinionpower.com/results.cgi?id=821019495

Nate

[cmeissen]

i wish we had faculty or grad student supervision/support

[Nate Notta]

Yeah I'm the grad student keeping the shop open for the team here in Windsor. We don't have faculty with enough time on their hands to sit around here on evenings.
For the record our team's answers to my survey were no, no, no. Our 2005 team has only been able to test drive our 2004 car once since Pontiac.
I guess not too many teams are allowed to have undergraduate students supervise the shop. But, I know some schools train an undergrad as a shop steward...

[Afazz]

Here at Carnegie Mellon, it seems to be hit or miss when it comes to team rights. They won't let us work in the machine shop if it's busy with other students and projects or even at all after hours (closes at 3:30). But they have no problem with letting us drive the car around in the parking lot unsupervised. There have been times when we called campus police for an escort from our garage to the parking lot (which includes driving on public roads through campus), and they said "just go ahead, it's OK." So they don't trust us using a manual mill alone, but they're fine with us driving on public roads http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Cement Legs]

Unfortunately it kinda makes sense though. The government trusts you with a licence to drive on the road... But I think the big thing for most schools, ours included, about unsupervised shop time is the liability as most people would guess. With my background in fabrication before going back to school I still have to be supervised. It can be such a pain. After labs and classes what time is leftover for the shop... Well as it turns out I should say after shop time what is left over for classes and labs http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Cheers

[Nate Notta]

I would think the liability for a school letting students drive (unsupervised) a car they built would be very similar to the liability when letting them build it unsupervised.
Is it as easy as having students sign waivers? Do any schools do that?

[Cement Legs]

Yeah I agree, but in the minds of someone in administration it's likely easier to see problems with untrained people on potentially deadly equipment as opposed to licenced drivers... driving... my two cents anyway.

Besides, I agree with universities somehow setting up policy to allow students more fexibility in shop time. I'm sure 100 people would have 100 different ideas on how to do this, and maybe thats the problem...

[Chase]

The reason we are able to machine things unsupervised is because of three main things.
1. We had to take a safety class for 30 minutes like 3 days in a row.
2. We have our own shop housing our own machinery.
3. We have good safety procedures and a near perfect safety record, that doesn't require OSHA to be on our backs all the time.

If you can do something similar to that you might have a good chance of being able to do things without senior supervision.

Another thing that we have just recently done is make design leaders in charge of all maintenance and training for a particular piece of equipment like lathe, mill, and various welding.

[Nate Notta]

We've taken the initiative of making safety inspection sheets, safety posters, etc., to show we're serious about safety. We've offered to meet and discuss things, but faculty doesn't even respond to us. I don't really know what to do next... we want the priveleges most other teams have.
Anybody want to come to Windsor for a protest?

[James Waltman]

There was a similar topic a while ago. (http://fsae.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=763607348&f=125607348&m=1986021955&r=1986021955#1986021955)

[Craig'r]

Nate.. you should take the team out to Fredericton with Cement Legs as they have the best set-up going (at least they did a few years ago when I was there). I used to live in the machine shop out there day and night with minimal supervision, although it sounds like the times may have changed out there as well.

Cement Legs: Do you guys have a Formula Team going out on the east coast?

I think having a safety class / machine shop class would be a great way for people to learn how to do things the right way, right from the start.

[Ballzac]

I can understand if the school requires supervision to work in the shop, but it is just frustrating to find events that we can take our car to and get some testing and driver training at, only to be told "no way" when we have our own means of transporting the vehicle, and a budget that could support it.
Also, I appreciate when faculty takes the time to come out and see us test drive, they do it on their own time, but i dont see why having a professor present during testing makes anything safer. I think an orientation class would be just as effective, if not more effective at ensuring the safety of the people involved. We are all adults after all.

[EgyptianMagician]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Craig'r:
Nate.. you should take the team out to Fredericton with Cement Legs as they have the best set-up going (at least they did a few years ago when I was there). I used to live in the machine shop out there day and night with minimal supervision, although it sounds like the times may have changed out there as well.

Cement Legs: Do you guys have a Formula Team going out on the east coast?

I think having a safety class / machine shop class would be a great way for people to learn how to do things the right way, right from the start. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


times HAVE changed...

Wicked shop, fancy smanshy new C&C machine, 4:00pm the shop closes (CNC machine can be run later on since a grad student runs it). We tried once to get permission to use the shop on lunch hours, it worked for about 25mins, then all hell broke loose.

So, we cope, we'll get there, just means the mech's keep missing more classes.

Oh well, glad to see we aren't the only ones in this boat, and goes to show it can STILL be done !!!

Only team on the east coast ... if we can pull it off nicely then we'll bug Dal and Munn until they get one going as well ...

UNB ! UNB ! UNB !

[Nate Notta]

I need to know, for you teams who are able to take your car out and test drive it, is there anything you do to secure that privelege?
Do you sign a waiver of some sort, or is there any discussion at all of who is liable in the event of an accident?

Nate

[Nate Notta]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ballzac:
... i dont see why having a professor present during testing makes anything safer. I think an orientation class would be just as effective, if not more effective at ensuring the safety of the people involved. We are all adults after all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great point... are they hoping by having a prof present that he/she will be liable rather than the U?

[Cement Legs]

I wouldn't even ask. If I spend copious amounts of time working on an extra curricular activity (like 200 hrs a year) then I'll take our car out whenever I feel like it. I'm a pretty responsible and mature person so the day that someone gets all paternal about this issue with me is going to be a very very very cold day...http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[James Waltman]

We get to drive our cars whenever we like – although not nearly as often as we should.

Here are the hoops we jump through:
Each quarter we have to get our faculty advisor to fill out a form that says he has verified that we have a driver's license, valid insurance, and no DUI or negligent driving convictions in the last 3 years. This form stays on file in the office.

We also purchase supplemental "Field Trip Insurance for medical expense benefits and accidental death and dismemberment coverage."� As far as the university is concerned the insurance is optional but our faculty advisor requires it. It really isn't a big deal because it only costs $0.50 per person per day. The biggest hassle is that it has to be turned in one business day before we go – not that tough.
You can find the form we fill out for the insurance here (something is not working with making this address link - you will need paste it in the address bar I guess):
www.wwu.edu/depts/ehs/pdfs/FT_%20Docs (http://www.wwu.edu/depts/ehs/pdfs/FT_%20Docs)(4-04).pdf

When we drive with the University of Washington we fill out a waiver that they have set up with Boeing. One of those guys could probably tell you a little more about it.

These requirements are not difficult complete. We generally give our Faculty advisor a heads up when we are planning on driving but it doesn't really matter. The university is pretty trusting. I'm pretty sure that I could load up about 7 million dollars worth of research vehicles on our truck and drive them to Florida and nobody would object.

Good luck.

Cement Legs – did you forget a zero on your time estimate?

[Nate Notta]

I notice from the insurance form "The insurance policy requires that the event be sponsored and supervised by the university". So when you drive at WWU are you supervised by your faculty advisor?

I'd like to see the waiver form from U of Washington, or any school that uses one.
The way I see it, our school is liable for an accident as the situation is now, whether or not we are supervised. If they really wanted to be safe we should be signing waivers.
If I had an example to present to the department head I bet I could get him to consider it.

[James Waltman]

The supervision comes from the club. We are an official student club so I guess that takes care of those requirements. Our faculty advisor comes with every once in a while but not to supervise.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

[jonno]

see if your uni has a personal liability cover, the students and the car are all covered on ours to the tune of £25,000,000 (ie properly covered) however it is only when you go to make a claim you tend to find out the full extent of your cover....
We don't need a lecturer present for testing, just a responsible team captain, several safety forms and risk assesments etc...

[Ballzac]

I've noticed many teams have posted which do not require faculty present to drive the car. Are there any other teams out there struggling for more freedom, or maybe teams that are tightly restricted but don't mind?

[kwancho]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nate Nantais:
I'd like to see the waiver form from U of Washington, or any school that uses one.
The way I see it, our school is liable for an accident as the situation is now, whether or not we are supervised. If they really wanted to be safe we should be signing waivers.
If I had an example to present to the department head I bet I could get him to consider it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Apologies from raising this thread up from the dead, but we had a meeting with our bureaucracy today and one of the things we have to address before we're certified as a group is liability. I'm looking for a couple things:
1. Types of waivers you guys use protecting the University from risk. Does anybody have any that they could send me? I took a look at a basic SCCA waiver, and that absolved the SCCA, and we'd need something more than that here.
2. Other written agreements that you have (like UW and WWU w/ Boeing) to test, or use their equipment. Anybody?
2. Insurance. I read that other thread, but if I understand correctly, we are not provided with any type of insurance at an FSAE competiton in the US, right? I saw that some teams use the standard field trip insurance, but the person I talked to didn't seem too keen on that. What other options are there?
My email's kwancho at stanford dot edu. Thanks guys.

[RiNaZ]

hey egyptianmagic, check your PM ...

[SeanM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cement Legs:
Yeah I agree, but in the minds of someone in administration it's likely easier to see problems with untrained people on potentially deadly equipment as opposed to licenced drivers... driving... my two cents anyway.

Besides, I agree with universities somehow setting up policy to allow students more fexibility in shop time. I'm sure 100 people would have 100 different ideas on how to do this, and maybe thats the problem... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd have to disagree with your statement, i'm sure the school could get in more trouble by letting their students drive an obviously street illegal car on public roads without any type of police or security supervision then with a university student operating a machine. yes the machines are potentially deadly but before you go to work on a machine you should know how to operate that machine already and therefore any incident occuring on the machine would by the operators fault. thats my 2 cents