Shortage of Carbon FIber

[HyeZeus]

Hey Ive been calling around for some prepreg and alot of companies are telling me there is a shortage of CF, because of Boeing sucking up all the sources dry. Any body know any good resouces for cf prepreg weave.

[HyeZeus]

Hey Ive been calling around for some prepreg and alot of companies are telling me there is a shortage of CF, because of Boeing sucking up all the sources dry. Any body know any good resouces for cf prepreg weave.

[Didier Beaudoin]

We have been told the same thing at various places and we haven't been able to find any prepreg and no company wanted to give us dry carbon fibre. We'll have to buy it.

[coldfire]

hmm, there is something humourous about Boeing sucking up all CF sources, lol.
i wonder what they need all that for? just trying not to get run over by Airbus i guess http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Jersey Tom]

Interesting. Talked to one of the larger ALCOA distributors here about some materials acquisition, apparently Boeing is also buying up massive amounts of high strength aluminum alloys, including the exotic ones.

Must have some huge contract goin on

[Marshall Grice]

funny, i have plenty of CF and aluminum just laying around here at work...

oh wait, i work for boeing.

[js10coastr]

...I was gonna say.

Maybe try contacting Boeing.

[Chris Davin]

Maybe with fuel prices climbing, it makes economic sense to make planes out of lighter and more expensive materials in order to save operating cost.

Just a guess.

[Bryan Hagenauer]

Yes, Boeing is doing a huge contract of composites. It's called the 787.

Friend of mine owns a small online composites retail buisness. He isn't able to get much carbon at all, and he has to submit his requests about a year in advance. Prices have almost doubled, if you can get it at all.

[Psychosis]

yeah i have a vague memory of seeing a picture of an entire nose section/cockpit in a CNC CF weaving machine. looked nuts. you'd think that boeing would have a single CF supplier and wouldnt just buy everything they can get their hands on. whats going to happen when this plane goes into production???

[Igor]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Psychosis:
whats going to happen when this plane goes into production??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

CF factories will increase production?

Igor

[MaizeRage]

check this out
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/7e7/programfacts.html

they say the plane is 50% Composites and 20% Alum

[Jersey Tom]

Primary aluminum production is half of what it was in 2000. Would be nice if that went up..

[Marshall Grice]

also check these out.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/7e7/k63374.html
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/7e7/k63211-1.html

i'd say that's a significant amount of carbon usage.

[Jersey Tom]

Yea, wow. Really sucks theyre sucking up so much out of the commercial sector rather than having their own internal supply of this stuff.

[HyeZeus]

SO any teams out there that have done cf parts in the past that are switching to aluminum, or steel because of the shortage? Are there any teams that are continuing with cf parts? And if you are where can i get some?!!!

[Ashley Denmead]

Yes Boeing and Airbus are using heaps of carbon and have a monopoly on the 3k market due to the fact that they are prepared to pay twice the amount we pay for it because their material has to be certified. They are mostly using 3k carbon and all of the 3k factories are flat out keeping up with their demand. Dont stop using the stuff, simply change to 5 or 12k weave! 12k looks better anyway http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Ash

[Tony K]

There's also a small amount of prepreg out there that is past its FAA certification date that is still useable, just not certifiable. We've had some luck finding rolls of Torayca prepreg from a few aircraft manufacturers that they can't use. They donate it to us because it's worthless to them, and get a decent tax write-off in the process.

[Andy M]

Sigmatex is an Anglo-American company that supplies Carbon fibre material (NOT PRE-PREG) of different weaves! Personally i've found their prices in the UK very reasonable, despite the price increase due to the oil situaton and boeing eating all the resources! (please note australia have recently put in orders for at least 2 more planes so expect prices to continue to rise!)
As for Pre-pregs I have always used Advanced Composites!

[EliseS2]

My senior design project is the bike for the ASME Human powered vehicle competition. I was really considering making some sections out of carbon, but with this shortage it may make this impossible.

I know this is a shot in the dark, but if anyone has a source for donated carbon, could you please share it. I know that you probably would not like to share, but if you have already got your stuff donated, we could take some scraps, since we should not need that much. So if you want to help a FSAE alum, it would be greatly appreciated.

Btw, the 787 is amazing. At my coop boeing came in and did a presention and so did Rolls Royce. Its not just the heavy use of composites, but so many other systems are huge leaps over over other commercial airliners. Also they are really making the development process is not just amazing for the time that it will take, but also the interaction with suppliers. If Boeing is able to pull it off, it will be just amazing.

[Bryan Hagenauer]

My friend who owns the composites store just relayed that the shortage may have "peaked". He says that his supplier got their full order in, so he is back to buying at will. No more having to forecast their needs etc. He thinks that things will start to get better, slowly.

[Nick Anderson]

There is much debate over industry statistics for carbon fiber. Estimates of annual worldwide demand for continuous PAN-based carbon fiber range from 13,600,000 kg to 22,700,000 kg (30 million to 50 million lb). Industry capacity is estimates to be around 31.7 million lb for conventional tows and large tows combined.
Historically carbon fiber markets had gone through boom/bust cycles, making it difficult for fiber manufactures to predict capacity needs. Aerospace and high volume sporting goods markets have consumed the majority of prepregs made with standard/intermediate tensile modulus and small-tow (1k-12k) carbon fiber. From 2001 through 2003 carbon fiber demand dipped, as economies in the U.S and Western Europe slowed significantly, but recovery and growth was the norm in 2004.
Demand is now up and continuing to rise, making the slump in carbon fiber demand a memory. Industry suppliers forecast increased demand over each of the next several years. The aerospace market has rebounded and as segments such as industrial applications for the fiber multiply, the market for carbon fiber is strong. So strong in fact, that some in the industry have expressed concern that the carbon fiber supply, as it has in the past, soon will be outstripped by demand, driving prices up and potentially killing otherwise viable development programs. In response, several manufactures have expanded capacity.
Forecasting 7-8 percent growth in demand per year, Toray has expanded its US facilities. Toray Carbon Fibers America Inc. (Decatur, Ala) will add new PAN based fiber production lines, increasing capacity by 1,800 tons/4.03 million lb per year. In addition, prepreg production at Toray Composites (America) Inc. (Tacoma, Wash) will be increased by 6.2 million m2. The expansions will be online in early 2006. Toho Carbon Fibers Inc. (Menlo Park, Calif) acquired large PAN carbon fiber producer Fortafil Fibers Inc. (Knoxville, Tenn), giving Togo a U.S. based facility to meet growing demand that it estimates is increasing by 10 percent per year. In addition, Toho has added a new fiber plant in Germany, which should be online in late 2006.

From Composites Sourcebook 2006, an Industry Trade Journal

Personally I believe behemoths like Boeing and Airbus do not affect the small users (such as a FSAE team) directly at all. Sure they contribute to demand, but their demand is for highly specialized fibers, i.e. high and ultra high modulus carbon with insane tolerances and specs attached, etc.. What it does do though is lessen output of the carbon we use, as supply is generally fixed. Furthermore, the highly fractured makeup of the carbon market, with thousands of different fiber types, different manufacturing practices, finishes applied etc furthers the extent of the carbon supply.

Furthermore, there are other gigantic projects that consume vast quantities of carbon. The Navy's DD(X) program (new littoral attack destroyer) will utilize a composite deckhouse and related structure, that is expected to use around 1 million lb of carbon fiber and vinyl ester resin. They are building 30 of these, in the next 10-15 years. Oil refineries are starting to use composite pipes, as is water distribution, etc..

For those interested in the 787, I posted some pictures of the COPB2 mockup for 787 composite fuselage barrel production:
http://www.aerosleeves.com/gallery/v/album/?g2_navId=xc2210b01

Nick Anderson