Official Kettering University Status Thread

[John Stimpson]

This is the official Kettering status update thread.

We have 8.5 days to go...

The short:

We were approached by Mahle 7 months ago to build a car with their engine/trans to compete in Romeo. We accepted. The powertrain consists of the 3 cylinder 609cc engine, and a 3 speed sequential transaxle. The trans was delivered plenty early, no probs. However, with 8.5 days until competition, we don't have an engine yet. Mahle is working on it, and it looks like we may get an engine on Wednesday (with 6 days to go to comp)

This weekend, we schemed up an alternative plan, including a CRF450X engine, perhaps chain drive to an intermediate box, perhaps turned sideways with a propshaft driving the input shaft of the transaxle we already have.

At this point, we have a rolling chassis that awaits main roll hoop braces (dependant on the engine), plumbing fuel lines and coolant lines, cutting throttle cable to length... etc etc.

I'll start posting pics a couple times a day.

We WILL make it.....one way or another!

[John Stimpson]

This is the official Kettering status update thread.

We have 8.5 days to go...

The short:

We were approached by Mahle 7 months ago to build a car with their engine/trans to compete in Romeo. We accepted. The powertrain consists of the 3 cylinder 609cc engine, and a 3 speed sequential transaxle. The trans was delivered plenty early, no probs. However, with 8.5 days until competition, we don't have an engine yet. Mahle is working on it, and it looks like we may get an engine on Wednesday (with 6 days to go to comp)

This weekend, we schemed up an alternative plan, including a CRF450X engine, perhaps chain drive to an intermediate box, perhaps turned sideways with a propshaft driving the input shaft of the transaxle we already have.

At this point, we have a rolling chassis that awaits main roll hoop braces (dependant on the engine), plumbing fuel lines and coolant lines, cutting throttle cable to length... etc etc.

I'll start posting pics a couple times a day.

We WILL make it.....one way or another!

[VFR750R]

That's crazy, I hope you guys make it.

Is it the same 3 cylinder they developed a couple of years ago?

Did you guys get to test with anything else? What are you going to do for fuel and ignition maps?

[John Stimpson]

Same engine...

No testing yet! The CRF has digital ignition and a TPS. That will be retained as is. Carb will also be used (upstream of restrictor, of course), with an additional choke upstream of the carb.

[Dan Deussen @ Weber Motor]

John,

would you mind telling us how complete this engine will be? Does it include a mapped ECU, intake system, exhaust system, etc.? Without all those parts it will be really tough to make it to comp in 4 days, but doeable! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Good luck!

[John Stimpson]

Does *not* include:

Mapped ECU
Intake system
Exhaust system

We got a Motec for the engine, we built the intake, the header, and brought the parts to their test cell to do calibration. Calibration is complete, but the engine has been having some technical difficulties, thus we don't "have" it for our car.

[John Stimpson]

Dan... You work for Weber? We've used their 750 turbo twin for our Clean snowmobile for the last 2 years. We've had a lot of success with it.

We got one hot on the dyno (115ºC), and it spun a rod bearing (which I notice don't have conventional "tangs" to engage the rod's big end - care to comment?). At competition, another team with the Weber got theirs hot (not sure how hot...it twisted the head though), and it also spun a rod bearing. Typical for these engines?

I might say however, it took the spun rod bearing like a CHAMP! Barely buggered the crank, cylinder walls not marred or scuffed, piston barely got into the head or crank!

[Dan Deussen @ Weber Motor]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by John Stimpson:
Dan... You work for Weber? We've used their 750 turbo twin for our Clean snowmobile for the last 2 years. We've had a lot of success with it.

We got one hot on the dyno (115ºC), and it spun a rod bearing (which I notice don't have conventional "tangs" to engage the rod's big end - care to comment?). At competition, another team with the Weber got theirs hot (not sure how hot...it twisted the head though), and it also spun a rod bearing. Typical for these engines?

I might say however, it took the spun rod bearing like a CHAMP! Barely buggered the crank, cylinder walls not marred or scuffed, piston barely got into the head or crank! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

John,

sorry I cannot comment much on the mechanical difficulties you had. But running an engine that hot typically results in some sort of damage. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I would assume you and the other team spun the bearing due to excessive oil temperature and the resulting lack of oil pressure and lubrication.

[Figlio_del_Diavolo]

I hope that another hand on deck will help a bit later this week.

[John Stimpson]

Looks like we may still be running Mahle power, yet. Supposed to get the engine tomorrow!

Sorry I haven't posted pics yet...dude with the camera has some "sensitive photos" and hasn't removed them yet for me to upload some late pics.

[John Stimpson]

Alright... 7 days to comp, we have an engine, and its on.

Here are some pics!



http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q243/stimpsonjohn/2007%20Kettering%20FSAE/P1010003.jpg

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q243/stimpsonjohn/2007%20Kettering%20FSAE/P1010002.jpg

[BamaJeff]

Good luck John...

[Conor]

Goodluck guys. Hang in there and you'll make it. I wish I could steal some of the hard work ethics you have on your team... God knows the WMU team could definetely use it...

[John Stimpson]

Haha! We have 4 members working on this at all. The last couple weeks we've had 2 basically new freshman start to bloom, and they are doing great. There are a couple others that stop in to help a bit.

We'll see y'all in Romeo for sure!

Updates to come!!

[Wesley]

Do I spy a hydraulic clutch?

Do you guys have a weight estimate? Or did I miss it. And do I see a pull-rod front suspension?

Looks good guys, looking forward to competition.

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

Looks like a better setup then the last car the 3 cylinder was in (900lbs! and that cool, but huge, cone CVT)

Can we get some details on how you got this, was it free, why did they pick you guys, what was the holdup on shipment?

Looks like you have a LOT of exhaust tubing, is this for a tuned length or did you just wana make it really "swoopy"?

[John Stimpson]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wesley:
Do I spy a hydraulic clutch?

Do you guys have a weight estimate? Or did I miss it. And do I see a pull-rod front suspension?

Looks good guys, looking forward to competition. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is indeed a hydraulic clutch. And yes, those are pullrods in front. Weight estimate, which is the source of at least 3 bets on the team, according to the optimists is 499 (under 500). Estimates from the realists (me) is 525. This powertrain could not be construed as light, and it must be run no hotter than 70ºC, which meant double the cooling capacity we've had before with our F4's.

[John Stimpson]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by drivetrainUW-Platt:
Looks like a better setup then the last car the 3 cylinder was in (900lbs! and that cool, but huge, cone CVT)

Can we get some details on how you got this, was it free, why did they pick you guys, what was the holdup on shipment?

Looks like you have a LOT of exhaust tubing, is this for a tuned length or did you just wana make it really "swoopy"? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


The powertrain was a donation from Mahle. Their North American operations were to sponsor a US team, and their NAO is pretty closeby to us. We were the lucky ones.

Hold up was mostly because of all those little pain the ass things you run into with doing engine testing.

I don't think we have a lot exhaust tubing at all! 1.25"x.035" 304SS primaries 24.5" long, a collector, and then about 4" of 2" tube, then muffler. We do have a BAM though, don't we?

Come by and chat with us at comp and we'll tell you all about the development of this car this year.

[Ben Beacock]

you might want to consider bars from the top of your front hoop to the top of your front bulkhead. It would likely save you alot of trouble in tech. Of course, if your nose is made already you might have an issue.

"The Front Hoop braces must be constructed such that they protect the
driver's legs and should extend to the structure in front of the driver's
feet."

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

That should pass tech, its braced.

I will definitely stop by to hear this thing run and shoot the shit with you guys.

[John Stimpson]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by drivetrainUW-Platt:
That should pass tech, its braced.

I will definitely stop by to hear this thing run and shoot the shit with you guys. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

From the hoop forward, our spaceframe has essentially been unchanged for a couple years, and we've never raised an eyebrow at tech.

Come on by Mike, if we're not wrenching the whole damn time, I've love to "chew the fat" so to speak!

John - no sleep, new workday!

[MalcolmG]

I'd love to see some more pics of the transaxle if at all possible...

[Dallas Blake]

Looking great guys, one thing that might pose a problem it having the exhaust exit that close to the intake inlet, you may end up with intake noise disrupting your readings. The german team with the mahle engine last year had a hell of a time passing noise last year and I know our recent noise test readings have been high because of our intake noise

[John Stimpson]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dallas Blake:
Looking great guys, one thing that might pose a problem it having the exhaust exit that close to the intake inlet, you may end up with intake noise disrupting your readings. The german team with the mahle engine last year had a hell of a time passing noise last year and I know our recent noise test readings have been high because of our intake noise </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting point... Hadn't really thought too much about that, but your right. One thing going for the setup is the BAM... We oughtta be pretty quiet, I think (hope).

[Conor]

6 days and counting.. how are you guys looking?

[John Stimpson]

Alright, relatively... We've been busting ass on all the *details* that we couldn't do anything about without the engine.

We had to make removable main hoop braces, and did the "sleeved butt joint" style, which I found out today, is a real pain... To get both tubes to be coaxial, and a nice slip-fit into the sleeve, no oversize bolt holes, and then off course, welding of the ends... One side was perfect, the other warped a touch and it was a huge bear to get apart. I am pretty competent in the shop and it took me over 6 hours today to tackle it.

The main things we have to do at this point is plumb the cooling system and terminate the Motec harness.

I think we'll be driving Saturday sometime.

Battery in camera died... New pics tomorrow.

[John Stimpson]

Well, we finally got our shocks... Because we were waiting on the engine, we were willing to wait for our shocks... And thus now have to weld our upper shock mounts in. Headrest is in now, and the cooling system plumbed. We are *almost* ready to race.

Oh, I'll include pics of our BAM!


http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q243/stimpsonjohn/2007%20Kettering%20FSAE/P1010016.jpg


http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q243/stimpsonjohn/2007%20Kettering%20FSAE/P1010015.jpg


http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q243/stimpsonjohn/2007%20Kettering%20FSAE/P1010025.jpg

[Wesley]

Aw heck, you call that a BAM?

When it approaches critical mass and collapses into a neutron star under its own gravity like ours did, then you can call it a BAM! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Matt N]

Hate to admit it but I just figured out what your BAM was.

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

WOW, I hope those engines mounts in the second to last pict arent all that is holding the engine in the frame!

Whats the story on the tranny, also a FSAE designed gearbox for this engine?

Do they actaully sell this engine or did they spend $1000's developing it for 2 teams to use in fsae?

[John Stimpson]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by drivetrainUW-Platt:
WOW, I hope those engines mounts in the second to last pict arent all that is holding the engine in the frame!

Whats the story on the tranny, also a FSAE designed gearbox for this engine?

Do they actaully sell this engine or did they spend $1000's developing it for 2 teams to use in fsae? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The engine is not to be a stressed member of the chassis. The transaxle is. The engine is ridgidly bolted to the transaxle by no less than 8 bolts. Thus, when the rear half of the chassis flexes, the engine is going to move with it. If the engine mounts up front were any stronger, they would stress the engine case, when the engine moves with the rear half.

Essentially, those are there to carry the weight of the engine, nothing more. They are specifially very weak in the lateral direction, to not put stress on the engine. It is a rapid prototype casting.

The trans was specifically designed for this engine... Its very similar to the Hewland FTR, but it has only 3 gears, and no reverse.

The engine is not for sale, and you might wanna add a couple zeros to your approximation of development cost!

[John Stimpson]

Oh yeah: We're clean this year; that BAM is catylized!

[Jersey Tom]

That's a cool little package.

[John Stimpson]

Update:

Car is about to be rolling for the first time! There have been a ton of details to finish up the last couple days and we've been working around the clock.

Once rolling, we'll go directly to the chassis dyno and see if its capable of powering its wheels and running worth a damn.

I'll post pics again soon!

John

[John Stimpson]

Car just came back from its first drive! Its working so far! We're able to keep it cool, have a bit of a tip-in bog, which I hope to tune out of it.

Car weighs in at 470... Totally blew me away, I predicted 518! Not sure how we managed to lose 13lb since last year, after incurring a pretty fat weight penalty associated with the new powertrain. We bust our ass this year to shave weight, it apparently paid off!

See y'all tomorrow.

[Gasperini]

Haha... We're in your hotel!

[formula_geek]

John-

Keep us updated on how things go at competition, there are plenty of Kettering alums rooting for you!

Travis Slagle

[John Stimpson]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dallas Blake:
Looking great guys, one thing that might pose a problem it having the exhaust exit that close to the intake inlet, you may end up with intake noise disrupting your readings. The german team with the mahle engine last year had a hell of a time passing noise last year and I know our recent noise test readings have been high because of our intake noise </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We came in at 103.4 DBA... Which was .4 higher than the quietest car there!

[Matthew Giles]

I second Travis's request. How did things go at comp? I just started reading up on what you guys have been up to lately and it's quite impressive. It's so cool to see how far along things have come, design wise, and yet still be able to pick out little details left over from when we were there.

[John Stimpson]

We were using some NSK deep groove wheel bearings with a 40mm ID and 58mm OD. 3mm balls inside. They weren't up to it, and they exploded in the right rear about 45 minutes prior to endurance.

We were able to knock some new bearings into the upright, JB Quick/File the stub axle and hub to fit into the bearings again, and start endurance, only to explode the same corner bearings 2.5 laps in.

In all fairness, it was absolutely amazing that we were able to get the car together and to competition, having received the engine with only 6 days to go. There was so much stuff to finalize, that had all been waiting on the engine.

I truly believe (and this may be nothing more than monday-morning quarterbacking) that if we had the engine a few days sooner, we could have uncovered our wheel bearing problem and come up with a suitable solution.

Of course, we then may have uncovered another problem at competition... Hindsight is 20/20!

Matt: What do you see on our car that is carried over from past years? I think the basic structure from the main hoop forward is pretty similar, pullrods in the front have been maintained for a long time here at Kettering. Steering rack placement...

By the way guys, if you'd like to see some specific pics of the car, I'd be happy to post them. Mahle found this thread though, and was unhappy that I posted any pics of their engine/trans, so I had to remove them.

[Pete M]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by John Stimpson:
Mahle found this thread though, and was unhappy that I posted any pics of their engine/trans, so I had to remove them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you serious?! You're not even allowed to post pictures of your car? Wow, that's awesome. I doubt anyone will consider running a Mahle powertrain next year after what you've been through.

[Conor]

John,

Were your wheel bearings standard deep groove ball bearings or where they double row angular contact?

[John Stimpson]

Standard deep groove...

I'm a tapered roller believer myself. They are a bit heavy, yes, but they've proven their worth over the course of billions of happy service miles in millions of automobiles.

Also, when cars used to use tapered rollers, you could go to the parts store and buy a new one, drop it in and everything was happy. These days, where most cars use ball bearings, you buy the entire assembly, because its beyond the scope of a service tech to replace/setup a ball bearing correctly.

Ultimately, we are amateurs, and its hard to justify components that are not as forgiving to use.

[John Stimpson]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pete M:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by John Stimpson:
Mahle found this thread though, and was unhappy that I posted any pics of their engine/trans, so I had to remove them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you serious?! You're not even allowed to post pictures of your car? Wow, that's awesome. I doubt anyone will consider running a Mahle powertrain next year after what you've been through. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They're sad we didn't do well.