FSAE-A 2011

[NickFavazzo]

Hi all, Thought I would start up a thread for Aus comp 2011.

How are the cars going?

I have booked our accommodation and have arranged it so we can have a driver swap day on the Tuesday. So I'm trying to gauge some interest in doing it.

What does everyone think of the later date of comp this year?

[NickFavazzo]

Hi all, Thought I would start up a thread for Aus comp 2011.

How are the cars going?

I have booked our accommodation and have arranged it so we can have a driver swap day on the Tuesday. So I'm trying to gauge some interest in doing it.

What does everyone think of the later date of comp this year?

[Rex Chan]

Driver swap - Melbourne Uni should def be up for it, assuming the car is still working. Monday might be pushing it a bit, since people are usually too tired after comp.

Later date = more time after exams to work on the car.

Progress - design was supposed to be done start of April, but still small stuff going on now. Having trouble sourcing billet from Bohler Uddeholm - how is your situation? Chassis doesn't exist except in CAD, but I've been told it will be done within a month...

Since I'm an engine guy, we've got some cool things happening. Our uni gave us some more money after last year's results, for engine management stuff, so we got a MoTeC M400 and PDM15 (have been running M48 since at least 2008). Will be good to have more inputs and smart power management, and means new dyno wiring loom. Still using the CBr600RR with E85, but ditching the 3 year old rapid proto plenum and going back to alum center feed. We should be running a flat sump too - design's done, just waiting for plate to machine.

[NickFavazzo]

Yeah Sorry I forgot about the Monday, I arranged it so we can do Tuesday, I really want to try and get a go-kart comp going too, a bit of fun after comp.

I suppose with the extra week of work should be great for testing (assuming of we don't do what we did last year).

Progress is ok, we have heavily focused on recruiting new team members so a lot of the usual work has been happening but later, we have picked up a few new guys that are really keen to get to comp and 'play race cars' which is quite good.

On the books this year is possible aero, a more serious look at Ethanol and possibly a new chassis (based on the 2010 car but with a few cosmetic changes), the chassis really depends on how many new members like working with carbon...

[MartyB]

Good to hear you guys will be around for the driver swap this year. Should be a good day.

Progress is going really well, we've gone for a clean sheet redesign this year, so we're focussing on finishing the car early. Our rolling date was meant to be tomorrow, which we were on track for a few weeks back, but we had complications within the team, which set us back a few weeks.

"On the books this year is possible aero" - Oh no. We are doomed.

[Rex Chan]

Re:Monash rolling by mid May - holy crap, that was an aggressive timeline. Rolling means all chassis and suspension stuff done. What else is there, apart from engine and driveline? I suppose you guys have aero to build too, but wouldn't you plan to have all the engine stuff soon after rolling chassis? How did you plan for 6 MONTHS of testing? You might even make FSAE West or whatever they call the 2nd US comp on that timeline.

Re:UWA and ethanol. I heard at comp/driver swap that you problems with E85, and since you're the powertrain guy over there, you'd be the one to ask - can you elaborate what kind of issues you had last year? We had and continue to have oil problems, but we just change it every 1-2 hrs run time, which is on par with most track cars anyway. It also helps to have Valvoline as our oil sponsor; there's no way we could go through as much oil as we do now if we had to buy the stuff they give us.

The car also doesn't run very well when cold, but we actually just started it up tonight - started pretty easily for a cold autumn evening (14C in Melbourne according to BoM), by FSAE standards. Only needed 3-4 cranks to get it running, after sitting around for 2 months and having all the fuel drained out of the tank/rails.

I'm pretty sure ethanol has helped us in the fuel economy event, getting 3rd in 2009 and 2nd in 2010 for a 240 & 250 kg car.

[StevenWebb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rex Chan:
Re:Monash rolling by mid May - holy crap, that was an aggressive timeline. Rolling means all chassis and suspension stuff done. What else is there, apart from engine and driveline? I suppose you guys have aero to build too, but wouldn't you plan to have all the engine stuff soon after rolling chassis? How did you plan for 6 MONTHS of testing? You might even make FSAE West or whatever they call the 2nd US comp on that timeline.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the perks of only having a 3 day holiday after the 2010 comp http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

to all victorian teams, try and bring your old car to some of the gippsland car club khanacross events http://www.gippslandcarclub.co...nts/gcc_calendar.pdf (http://www.gippslandcarclub.com.au/documents/gcc_calendar.pdf) next one is june 26th. the tracks are perfect for fsae cars and its great competition experience (even if the competition is a 14 year old in a rusty hyundai)

[Rex Chan]

Re: StevenWebb - thanks for the info. I'll let the team know about these events. We went to some hillclimbs earlier on, but the tracks are not good for drivers to get FSAE-A experience, Silhouette Karts is much better (even if slower & not as much fun). We used them for a comp-like atmosphere and timeline/deadline training.

I noticed that the 26th June event is at Bryant Park, where we went for our first 2011 hillclimb. Will this event be the same track/layout, or a tighter track like comp?

In 2010, we had a look at some motorkhana photos, but they seemed too dirt & backyard compared to FSAE?

[NickFavazzo]

@MartyB: Aero will be interesting, the concepts we are going with sound awesome and I hope to hell that physical testing justifies us competing with them, having no real wind tunnel will hurt but We will just have to make do with the data we collect and go from there..

@Rex- Ethanol was an issue as we didn't tune the car for it, as we were so under prepared for comp last year we never had the chance to run a decent tune and fault find on the loom/powertrain, the end result was that the team chose to stay with ethanol and run using a Petrol tune with correction factors, When we finally ran we were only using 2 or 3 cylinders (I know one was definitely not firing). The muffler blew up as a result of us stupidly putting heat shielding on the aly muffler case to try and pass noise, My theory is we were running lean, the aly got a little too hot, it melted and let in enough air and yeah we started to make a little more noise than usual.

Monash rolling! Do you any pictures to tease us with!

Rex do you have oil problems due to the Ethanol? We use Redline and had no problems (but them again we didn't run for very long).

[MartyB]

http://www.facebook.com/photo....46670&type=1&theater (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=209197749101485&set=a.201802033174390.48939.185745901446670&type=1&theater)

http://www.facebook.com/photo....46670&type=1&theater (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=210212365666690&set=a.210211929000067.56422.185745901446670&type=1&theater)

This is from a few weeks back, chassis and you can see wishbone construction.

@Rex, the karnacross is tight, it's pretty much like the layouts we make at silhoutte karts. The karnacross doesnt have dirt parts either. As for the 6 months of testing, this is a brand new car, (the 2010 is still together and running, and should be for the next few years), so every component will probably break once, the new engine will leak or not fire half the time etc etc.

We figured the only way to stay competitive this year was to get 4 years worth of testing out of the way in the first year.

[Boffin]

Well as most of you have herd by now, Swinburne will NOT be entering this year with a petrol car.
The long and short of it is they do not want to listen to students and want to focus on the electric car as they have reached a "peak" (their words not ours) with the petrol car. Which so far has turned out to be a fantastic choice (insert sarcasm).

However, the good news is that the petrol car will be heading to the Japan FSAE event. We were able to source funding (not by the uni, they paid only the $900 event entrance fee), so it will be all hands on deck soon in order to check/prep/test the car.

The plan is to leave the car mostly the same (No E85 at japan http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif ) but to run on goodyears.

On top of this, I am planning on having the car at the car swap this year running on E85, just for the shear sh*t's and giggles of it.

Outside of that, if anyone has any questions about engine tunning, what we did, or wants some help (or even a tuner - Please I'm bored), then drop me a line and I will do what I can.

Best of luck to you guys this year. I am very envious.


[EDIT]
For those wondering why we chose Japan, there was talk of heading to the US before our cancellation news came down. While we were busy trying to same the team (not heading over sea’s was one of the compromises to continue), we missed the entrance for FS-UK and for Formula student. And as it turned out, only the top team got an invite to the US comps (we thought top two)

[DStevens]

@NickFavazzo: Good to hear Im not the only one already pumped for comp. Adeliade Uni also has a team evaluating aero, but at this stage it doesnt look like we will be getting any meaningful wind tunnel time so we will decide if we run it based on our on track testing.
I did get a bit of inspiration after seeing Purdue present their car at Michigan http://www.flickr.com/photos/3...8542/in/photostream/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39370869@N04/5497548542/in/photostream/) . Then Kansas State taking fastest Autocross time.

Monash: Great work getting the car together so quickly. I was hoping to get a step up on you with the direction change this year, but alas not. I have been following you on Facebook, and it looks like it is all coming together well.

Swinburne: Dissapointing to hear that you wont be there with your petrol car this year, especially after the great result last year. Hopefully for you guys the electric competition picks up in the next few years, or you can get support to take it to Europe and compete over there.
Great to hear you are heading overseas, We will all be watching and supporting you guys all the way.

Adelaide Uni is currently trying to bust out as much testing as possible, we will be bringing new parts onto the old car as they come through to get as many k's on everything as we can. Then build the new chassis in the second half of the year and test, test, test. The aim is a super reliable car for comp, I want to be pulling a Missouri and sitting on a couch in the pits all comp.

Cheers

[carbon_black]

Boff, whilst it's sad to hear that Swinburne petrol won't be at the 2011 aussie comp, I'm glad to see that you are going overseas. All the best with that one.

Steve, scary to see you guys so far forward with your build. (Does that mean Aurora _finally_ got back to you?)

UTS is coming along strong, and like Adelaide (and a fair few other teams it seems) we are putting a bigger focus on testing. We are no where near organising our event accommodation yet, but we are keen on keeping a few people around till Tuesday for a driver swap.

Pete Ringwood
UTS Motorsports

Project Manager 2011
pete.ringwood@utsmotorsports.com

[Natalie Ajay]

Hey everyone!

Our Monash Motorsport Facebook page has a few photos of our chassis construction:

http://www.facebook.com/media/...6422.185745901446670 (http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.210211929000067.56422.185745901446670)


And from a test day at haunted hills:

http://www.facebook.com/media/...6421.185745901446670 (http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.210210809000179.56421.185745901446670)

Hopefully have some more exciting photos showing some progress soon http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Boffin]

Overseas will be interesting for us. Unfortunately this year their is no US or European team entering Japan. Good and bad for us really.

I forgot to mention guys, remember we have a sae friendly (to a degree) chassis dyno.
So if you’re after one to shake the car down on, or need some last minute tuning done keep us in mind.
Any time doesn't matter either. We've tuned till 2/3 in the morning before.

[Macros]

Hey guys

We're pretty excited about comp this year. Things seem to be progressing. Transaxle design revisions have been made and we should have photos of our chassis build up on facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/UoAfsae).

Not sure if we'll make it to car swap this year. Flights back home get more expensive a week closer to christmas.

[Rex Chan]

Wow - this thread has gotten a lot of replies. I have to go to sleep, because we're going driver selection/training tomorrow, so will reply more thoroughly later; but since our 2010 car is still going, and Monash plans to keep their 2010 car for a few years (wish we could, but I don't think we have the space or resources if stuff starts breaking), maybe we could organise a FSAE dyno day at Swinburne? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ben - I know you very kindly offered to let us use the chassis dyno so we could get a real torque curve, and I'm keeping that in mind, as the 2010 car will be getting some more driving time in the next month or so (as opposed to sitting in the workshop with various bits missing).

The 2011 engine guys will be running the dyno soon (next month - needs wiring and the 2011 intake/exhaust), so we may take you up on that tuning help offer. They're all new to it, and I only have 1 FSAE season's worth of experience.

[Jon Oneill]

Event entry has been announced at $4180. Does anyone else think this is amazingly expensive considering we are Uni students with no money?

Event cost + accommodation + travel = the most expensive weekend of racing in Australia.

What are the event entry fee's elsewhere in the world, because it seems to be getting more expensive every year, and I though we were past the GEC. Hell, Australia pretty much missed it all together.

If you compare our event & the location to other international events (Hokkenhiem/ Silverstone/ MIS) its pretty clear the event seems to be very under-supported over here, and students seem to be footing the bill.

Opinions + comments?

[bob.paasch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JonJon:
Event entry has been announced at $4180. Does anyone else think this is amazingly expensive considering we are Uni students with no money?

Event cost + accommodation + travel = the most expensive weekend of racing in Australia.

What are the event entry fee's elsewhere in the world, because it seems to be getting more expensive every year, and I though we were past the GEC. Hell, Australia pretty much missed it all together.

If you compare our event & the location to other international events (Hokkenhiem/ Silverstone/ MIS) its pretty clear the event seems to be very under-supported over here, and students seem to be footing the bill.

Opinions + comments? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The US events are $2000 registration. FS Austria is 1000 euros. I don't remember the UK and FSG, but thought they were also around 1000 pounds/euros.

[Boffin]

$900 for japan, but no tents or shelter is provided.

[TMichaels]

750 Euros for FSG

Regards,

Tobias

[Rex Chan]

Seems like we're about twice the price of most other comps. Although we only have about 25 entries, vs about 100 for the others.

The most disturbing thing is that I thought Vic Uni provided the track for free, which means we're only paying for tent hire and generators.

[TMichaels]

Do not underestimate the budget needed to setup an event since you usually have to pay for everything:
- Track rental
- Firefighters & Ambulance
- Lodging & Meals for the volunteers (including Judges and Scrutineers)
- Fire Extinguishers
- Flags & Cones
- Tents & Generators
- Timekeeping
- Awards
- Signs & Banners
- Scrutineering Equipment & Stickers
- Radio equipment for the organization staff and track marshals

Just to name a few.

I will not provide numbers, but the entry fee at FSG with 108 teams this year and 750Euros per team is a drop in the ocean compared to the overall budget of the competition.

Regards,

Tobias

[Joji]

i want to know that would we be getting our registration money back if in case we fail to register and we know it after 29th july (registration cut off date)? I am asking because it sounds really odd if we neither compete nor get our refund..

The addendum states that

A7.6.2 Pg14 Registration Fees
"Registration fees will not be refunded after the registration cut off date of
July 29, 2011. Early advice of withdrawal prior to that date may, at the
discretion of the organisers, result in some refund of fees paid."

[StevenWebb]

To all interstate/international teams currently organising freight - try and keep your cars in Victoria for the Wednesday after comp. we might be organising something special.

[PatClarke]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">want to know that would we be getting our registration money back if in case we fail to register and we know it after 29th july (registration cut off date)? I am asking because it sounds really odd if we neither compete nor get our refund.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Joji,
This question is better directed to SAE-A, the organiser of the event. You cannot get any answer on this forum.

Pat

[NickFavazzo]

@stevenwebb Logistics is going to be a pain because everything is closer to xmas now, most of the team is looking for flights on the Wednesday morning in a bid to avoid the price rise as xmas approaches. Can it not be done on the Monday or Tuesday?

An extra day in Melb is expensive for out of state teams.

[Joji]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Joji,
This question is better directed to SAE-A, the organiser of the event. You cannot get any answer on this forum. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

thanks Pat for your response, but I posted it here after I emailed to fsae-a and waited for time period I thought was long enough ..but then we called them and got their answer http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Chris B]

hey all, UQ is going ok thus far. had a few test days so far got some more planned. just finished a pretty intensive development period over the mid year break, looking forward to getting it dyno'd then hit the track again.

[Chris B]

and the later comp date suites me fine as it means i get to go the tenacious D and foo fighters concert http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[NickFavazzo]

UWA just back from a few days in at the Collie Motorplex, ran in the new engine before doing a big end other than that the car went well. We got plenty of work done on the mid-sem break.

Bit of driver training in the older cars also, it was a good trip for the newer members, several days driving away from home.

[Macros]

Auckland are busy testing new components on the 2010 car.
The new chassis is a few weeks away still but the good news is that the powertrain package that we've been making the last few years is proving itself to be more reliable.
No more exploding gearboxes or alternator brushes.

[Rex Chan]

Since people are giving team status updates, I'll do the same for Melbourne Uni:

The main members for the 2011 chassis have all been welded up, so the chassis guys are "done". Pictures on my facebook (http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150259700578036.331825.559588035) and videos on my YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezqsmThi6aQ&feature=channel_video_title). Currently waiting for suspension + all other chassis tabs to come back from laser cutting.
Engine dyno getting closer to being done. Actually, tomorrow we're going to spend a few hours and hopefully finish off the wiring.

On the engine side, we've got our exhaust bends bent up, getting picked up tomorrow, and need to be cut, jigged on chassis + around suspension a-arms, then welded before we can get a 2011 engine tune. All parts for 2011 intake are ready, except injector holders, but we can use the 2010 one until the (identical) new parts arrive. So the aim is to make sure no dyno issues this week, and maybe tuning the 2011 system next week or so.

On the 2010 car front, we took it out a fair bit over the semester break to get the 2011 drivers trained up. We tried to go out every wed/thursday for 4 weeks, and made most of those days, although missed a few due to broken wheel centers and rain. The track we test at (Silhouette Karts in Somerton) is a right handed track, so even though we cone it up, the front left wheel gets highly loaded under braking/turning. On one of the first holiday test days, the front left wheel center broke 3 out of 6 spokes. We replaced both front wheels, and checked all the others. However, at the next day, we found cracking along the back of many of the spokes on left hand wheels. This reduced us to our last set of wheels (always mounted with wets, so lightly used and lightly loaded when used), though we are making more thanks to CH Tooling, who are casting magnesium wheel centers for us. We strongly suspect the wheels were incorrectly designed, as the 2011 guys are highly skeptical of some of the forces applied in the FEA analysis (designed + made in 2009, so there's a lesson to be careful when using old, student designed parts). This also meant that rain forced us to use slicks, so now all drivers have experience in the wet on slicks. It wasn't pretty, and we won't be doing any more driving like that.

One of the issues with having FSAE as a 4th year final project is that nearly all drivers have to be trained in that year, then graduate. Therefore, the more driving they get in last year's car, the better, since the current year's car is always late/breaking/needs setup before comp. It also doesn't help that we don't have space to keep 2 cars, so as the 2011 car gets built, we'll dismantle the 2010 to make space. Oh well, I'm just happy that "my" car had a longer life than many FSAE cars.

[Jon Oneill]

UTSM is a little behind, but still going well. Chassis is all tacked up and awaiting final welding.
Machining is under-way, and should be done soon.
All our laser cutting will be in soon, and ready for attachment to the chassis.
Bodywork moulds will be going together soon.
Powertrain production is going well, and we're looking good to get the engine on the dyno.

Apart from that, we're focusing on developing the 2010 car, and our drivers. We've found a lot of speed through engine & suspension changes on the test track, and as our new car is evolutionary, we will be able to apply all the knowledge to the 2011 car once its done.

Our drivers are getting faster too. Our main issue last year was our lack of driver training, so this year we've really focused on building some depth in that area.

Once we have 2 cars on track, we should also be able to train drivers very quickly. We're looking forward to December.

It seems a lot of teams are running 2010 cars this year.

[MartyB]

Monash is going well. After setting a very aggressive timeline in November last year, and not enjoying any holidays over the summer break, we drove our 2011 car yesterday.

It was a surprisingly issue-free day. No components broke, and apart from a few bolts loosening, it ran reliably all day. Got to love carbureted engines! The engine guys are still getting the efi tune going on the dyno while we run carbureted.

We still have a long way to go as many of the components are either still to go on (wings, arbs, etc) or have temporary parts on them (radiators, fuel tank, efi, etc). We decided that testing time was key to remaining competitive with a clean sheet redesign. Even if it was only running on carby, we can start testing suspension components and getting the setup going.

We have plenty of photos, and a few videos from yesterday and the weeks leading up to it. It's all up on our facebook http://www.facebook.com/pages/...port/185745901446670 (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Monash-Motorsport/185745901446670)

We have wind tunnel testing from today til Sunday, so the aero guys will not be getting much sleep over the next four days, and we wont be able to take the car out on track til Monday. The plan is to pressure tap the undertray at some stage and do some on track validation.

We're also hoping to put a lot more effort into the static events this year, because we should have more free time for them this year with our current timeline.

Which teams are running 2010 cars do you know?

[NickFavazzo]

We are technically running 2010 again although we have massive changes to what we already have, just the same tub really so it doesnt pass the new chassis rule, even if we have new kinematics http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Rex Chan]

Re: martyB - according to ADFAs facebook and website, they wil be running the 2010 car again. UQ seem to have their 2011 car running already, so must have started design last year, and manufacture early this year. UNSW/Redback Racing are changing lots of parts on their 2010 car, so maybe not really the same car.

[Chapo]

ADFA is running 2010 again at this comp, it has had a few modifications to pass the FSUK interpretations of the rules but mostly the same car.

[Joji]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MartyB:
Monash is going well. After setting a very aggressive timeline in November last year, and not enjoying any holidays over the summer break, we drove our 2011 car yesterday.

It was a surprisingly issue-free day. No components broke, and apart from a few bolts loosening, it ran reliably all day. Got to love carbureted engines! The engine guys are still getting the efi tune going on the dyno while we run carbureted.

We still have a long way to go as many of the components are either still to go on (wings, arbs, etc) or have temporary parts on them (radiators, fuel tank, efi, etc). We decided that testing time was key to remaining competitive with a clean sheet redesign. Even if it was only running on carby, we can start testing suspension components and getting the setup going.

We have plenty of photos, and a few videos from yesterday and the weeks leading up to it. It's all up on our facebook http://www.facebook.com/pages/...port/185745901446670 (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Monash-Motorsport/185745901446670)

We have wind tunnel testing from today til Sunday, so the aero guys will not be getting much sleep over the next four days, and we wont be able to take the car out on track til Monday. The plan is to pressure tap the undertray at some stage and do some on track validation.

We're also hoping to put a lot more effort into the static events this year, because we should have more free time for them this year with our current timeline.

Which teams are running 2010 cars do you know? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow! this is an ideal for every fsae team, right? Great work, i am impressed. Wish you guys best of luck.

[Chris B]

UQ's in a similar position to UWA, but we've opted to develop what we had rather than make whole sale changes to it. 2012 design is nearing completion, which is good. we're happy with where we're at.

[NickFavazzo]

So who has registered for Aus comp? I have not received confirmation yet :/ not too sure when I should be expecting anything, will any international teams visit us?

[Chris B]

UQ has, or at least I believe we've submitted the paperwork to be registered.

[Jon Oneill]

After looking at the results from FSG, would anyone disagree with adopting the fuel efficiency formula of the Germans.

The FSG system seems much more effective, as it considers a competitors event average speed, as well as the actual fuel used. If more fuel was used to increase the cars speed, its considered.

Considering we've already changed the rules once, what damage could changing them again do...

h t t p ://www.formulastudent.de/events/event-2011/results/

[NickFavazzo]

The German efficiency formula would be awesome, although we have already spoken to marissa about it and the rules committee said they will be using "The SAE [American] formula as opposed to the Formula student [German] formula"

UWA would prefer the German efficiency formula as it promotes efficient powertrain packages, the American formula essentially says if you turn it off it will use less fuel, thats not engineering.

If they believe so much in the American formula they should also tell the electricity users to 'just use less' to reduce CO2 emissions...

[Scott Wordley]

I think practically every australian team would be in favor of the german efficiency rules rather than the US version, at least all the ones we have talked to, ourselves included.

This seems to have no bearing on the choice that has been made by SAE-A and the consortium sponsors.

As a consequence we will probably burn 10 times as much fuel in testing trying to figure out how to achieve the best balance between speed and economy, in the process risking our engines through running dangerously lean, increasing the amount of dyno work and engine modifications required, and ultimately reducing the spectacle of the event.

And we are running a 450 single!
I feel sorry for teams still running 4s... how long are you going to be able to keep doing that? How much investment will be wasted if you all need to go singles to compete?

PS Blatant Plug: we have 2 husky engines for sale, 1 new and 1 used. $5k for both PM us!

[DSR]

Hi all,

We are a rookie team from India, IIT Roorkee Motorsports, and would be participating in FSAE-A 2011. Could anyone of you tell me about the cheap accommodations near the competition site. And when should we book the accommodations.

Expecting some really helpful replies at dsr.iitr@gmail.com

Digendra Rathore
IIT Roorkee Motorsports

[Chris B]

i dont know about specific places as i dont organise our accomodation, but you should be pretty well booking it about now. otherwise you run the risk of not getting anything, especially this year with competition being so close to christmas.

[DSR]

Thanks Dear.

[woodsy96]

The event is held near Hopper's Crossing at the University of Victoria's Industrial Skills Training Centre.

I know a few teams regularly stay nearby and walk to the venue but I don't know exactly where the accomodation is.

[Macros]

I remember WESMO staying in a pretty close place. You could flick them an email.

[Ashmeet]

Hello

Is there a Hoosier tire stall in FSAE A as in other competitions? We know that Michigan, FSUK and other comps too have one. We'd be bringing dry and wet tires - one set each to the competition.

Ashmeet
Team Captain
IIT Roorkee Motorsports

[NickFavazzo]

Not that I know of.

[Ashmeet]

Thanks Nick

Hi All

Cheers!
We, being a first year team are a bit confused in the SEF preparation. We have manufactured our chassis using baseline materials (AISI1020 tubing) and used proper dimensions as in B.3.3.1 “Baseline Steel Material”. We've also made sure that we follow all the chassis rules for steel structures.

The Structure Equivalency Guide explains how to write the SEF only for monocoques/alternate frame.

My question is do we just need to say that 'No, chassis did not deviate from baseline'. If not, then what else do we need to do?

I would highly appreciate if you help us in this regard.

Ashmeet
Team Captain
IIT Roorkee Motorsports

[NickFavazzo]

If you have not deviated from the baseline then you just mark that, if you have used alternate methods/materials you need to provide supporting documents that show that your design meets the criteria. There are sections that are not there for monocoques only.

[Rex Chan]

In 3 years of attending FSAE events (2008, 2009, 2010), I have never seen a Hoosier truck. So I don;t think the 2011 comp will have one either. In fact, I've never seen any manufacturer/supplier set up a stand (like I've seen at FSUK/FSG).

I saw a FSAE form in our office being filled out that asked whether you used the baseline or not. We had ticked yes to all the baseline stuff. Not sure if this helps, but just wanted to let you know there is a form that lets the organizers know if you are using the baseline material or not.

[Michael Royce]

Ashmeet,
All teams are now required to submit an SEF form, even if they built their car to the Baseline steel requirements with no deviations.

As Nick said, except for those lines for monocoques, just put a check mark or "X" in the left hand column of the form, and send it in to SAE-A before the deadline date.

Take your tyres already mounted on wheels. There has been no tyre supplier on site at any of the FSAE-A events that I have attended. If you are short of "good", i.e. light weight wheels, mount your "wets" on steel wheels. The wheels for your "wets" do NOT have to e the same as those for your "dries".

As far as lodgings is concerned, although I would NOT recommend it, at least one Indian team has stayed down in Melbourne, caught the train out to Hoppers Crossing and then walked to the U of Victoria site. It is about a mile. If you can rent a car or van.

Good luck. It is a good event to go to as Malcolm, Scott and Nick will testify.

[Ashmeet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> To all interstate/international teams currently organising freight - try and keep your cars in Victoria for the Wednesday after comp. we might be organising something special.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We are currently planning our journey and logistics. We are in for staying up to wed/thur after the competition. Please share some details about the driver swap/bbq nights/after comp parties.

IIT Roorkee Motorsports
Team Captain

[Rex Chan]

Re the afterparty, here's an email sent out by RMIT, who oranised it last year, and are doing it again this year:

"From: Stefan Millard &lt;fsae@rmit.edu.au&gt;
Date: 25 August 2011 18:24
Subject: FSAE AUS COMP AFTER PARTY
To:


G'Day Everyone,

Hope all is going well with the manufacture of your cars and looking on track to make the comp.

Talking of the competition, it has been the tradition for the past few years that RMIT Racing has organised the after party on the Sunday night of comp.

As it is fast approaching, thought it might be time to start organising it.

Previous years it has been held at the Colonial Hotel on King St and tickets have been around $25-30 with a discount for buying tickets earlier.

If you guys could let me know if you are happy with this. Then I can get back to you with more details. Feel free to email this to all the teams as I don't have everyone's email addresses.
Thanks,

Stefan Millard

3rd Year Mechanical Engineering
2011 Suspension Design / Co Team Leader
RMIT Racing FSAE Team
RMIT University, Melbourne"

I'm not sure about BBQ nights???

Driver swap last year was Tuesday after comp at Silhouette (to give Monday off to sleep, sleep, and more sleep). I suppose we'll know closer to comp how teams are going and who is likely to have a working car after comp.

In any case, feel free after comp to drop into Melbourne Uni to have a chat/discuss/etc. Just let me know via mobile/email.

[carbon_black]

It's brave of RMIT to offer to host it again, and probably more so for the Colonial to have us back.

Cheers to RMIT for offering to organise it again through. From us out-of-state teams, it is much appreciated.

[NickFavazzo]

Couldn't agree more, the after party is looked forward to almost as much as the actual event by the guys over at UWA, we really appreciate the work that goes into it! Definitely looking forward to Silhouette on Tuesday also!

[Kirby]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pete Ringwood:
It's brave of RMIT to offer to host it again, and probably more so for the Colonial to have us back.

Cheers to RMIT for offering to organise it again through. From us out-of-state teams, it is much appreciated. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It would be nice to find a new venue, but there isn't that many places keen to host a couple hundred engineers till the silly hours on a Sunday night.

[Rex Chan]

Hello all FSAE-A 2011 teams!

I just thought I'd post a quick update on where Melbourne Uni (MUR Motorsports) is up to. Today, we just got our CV housings (EDM wirecut), sprocket carrier, front brake rotor carrier (all from OEM Engineering), and wiring loom from Australian Arrow. There were two types of CV housings made: Al with steel (EN26 + heat treated) inserts and just Al (to be hard anodized by Electromold). Not sure of what type of Al. The 2010 ones were all steel. The 2011 will be lighter, and hopefully will take loads from the tripods. Stub axles are being heat treated as I type. Loom is being checked, and the plan is to bench test it over the weekend.

Race Radiators has finished our custom radiator, so will be picked up soon. That means nearly all our engine parts are ready to go on the car (intake/exhaust are on the dyno; sump pan will be same as last year, or the new CH Tooling magnesium one; oil tank needs to welded by us; using 2010 scavenge pump; fuel tank has been leak tested and fit on the car (thanks Rob Black Engineering!), new spare Delphi fuel pump has been tested/testing on the dyno).

A-arms have been welded, powdercoated, bearings press fir, and circlips inserted. Brake rotors have been waterjet cut (Westlink).

The plan for engine team tomorrow is to re-shim our fourth engine, check out the load cell on the engine dyno, and check the loom from Engine's POV.

Re: Engine number 4 - we have one dyno engine (bought by Brear/ACART in 2009), 2010 car engine (Brear 2010), 2009 car engine, and engine number 4. The 2010 car engine is back at Honda for a checkup/rebuild. Currently, the 09 car engine is sitting in the 2011 chassis, but the fourth engine is being re-assembled. Engine number 4 is made of several older engines, and will be using a higher CR head. The cams were removed for another engine in 2010, so now the 2011 engine guys are putting back shims, valve lifters and cams to make it a complete engine. It's almost done, with valve clearances all correct except for one valve.

From Facebook, many teams are already driving. Would love to hear from other unis - how are things going? I hope the MUR 2011 car will be driving in the next 2-3 weeks, which makes for about 2 months of testing, which is almost 1 month more than 2010.

Good luck all FSAE-A 2011 teams and see you in December!

[NickFavazzo]

Hi guys,

I am wondering what the go is for the FSAE-A T-Shirts, I have the 2009 one, but 2010 was quite hectic for UWAM and we missed out, Do any teams have spares? I have a few guys who would love to have one, (I think Pete has them from every comp except 2010).

On a related note, What is the go for the shirts in 2011, is it something organised by SAE-A or do one of the teams do it?

Thanks, hope your cars are going well!

[S_Tube_47]

Hey Guys,

Hope progress is steady and everyone is gearing up for comp - only 65 days to go!!

Auckland is getting there slowly but surely. Tuning with our new Link ECU and building up a spare powertrain package is the game being played at the moment.


What provisions have been made for Car Swap this year?

We are currently sorting out logistics and would like to know whether it is Tuesday or Wednesday and who will be attending this year......

Cheers.

[NickFavazzo]

I do believe car swap is the Tuesday, UWAM will be attending, vehicle in tow, but if it turns out it is Wednesday we won't be able to.

[Rex Chan]

If UWA can only make tuesday, then I'll make sure the Melbourne Uni car is there too. We just had our first drive/shakedown in the 2011 car, and its looking very good from the steering perspective. Here's a pretty cool video of the car from the POV of a cone.

Melbourne Uni FSAE 2011: Shakedown Cone Cam (http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150336478698036)

[S_Tube_47]

From what I gather Monash is keen as always and Swinburne is bringing the old girl on a different fuel.

What about teams outside Melbourne - UTSM, Gong??


PS - MUR the car looks good.

[carbon_black]

Regarding the car swap, We are planning on being there but in the same boat as UWA though. Tuesday after comp is fine, but Wednesday not so much.

Can anyone not do Tuesday?

Pete,
UTS Motorsports,
Sydney, Australia

[Rex Chan]

Our uni is putting graduation of everyone in FSAE at Melbourne on during comp. They did last year also. So now they're asking us if they can do it on the tuesday 20th. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I've let the guys in charge know about this, so I think we'll be there. In any case, I'll be there and I'm going to try pretty hard to bring the FSAE car too.

And just like last year, I think we'll be happy for any comp drivers from other unis to drive our car.

[Scott Wordley]

I think we will try to organise silhoutte for the Tuesday. There is a chance we will have access to a bigger, faster venue on the Wednesday for teams who are able to hang around. Should be good. All going to plan we may be able to run two cars for the driver swap.

[Rex Chan]

That sounds great Scott!

How are teams going? It's almost exactly 2 months til comp. I think we're going to be out at Silhouette next Tuesday and Thursday.

How are teams going to tackle fuel economy? I was just looking at the data from our shakedown on Thursday, and we're leaning out to LA=1.2 at 9000RPM. We'll be tuning accel enrich to get that below LA=1.00, but I wonder if the drivers will really notice and how much it will affect laptimes. Oh well, that's what testing is for, I guess. We're running overrun fuel cut, but apart from that, just tuning steady state on the dyno pretty lean. And we've still got a 8L fuel tank.

[Ashmeet]

Does the hard copy of the cost report just need to be postmarked on/before 21st October? Or should it reach SAE Australasia on/before 21st October? I'm doubtful because the rulebook mentions to be postmarked before the due date and FSAE-A addendum (on the last page) says 'Cost report must be received by - Hard copy version 21st October 2011'.

I will be talking to Michel Bartels from SAE Australasia on Monday morning. But need to wait a long weekend before that. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Ashmeet Sidhu
Captain
IIT Roorkee Motorsports

[Michael Royce]

Ashmeet,
Event Supplementary Rules, in this case the FSAE-A Addendum, supercede what is in the FSAE Rules published by SAE-I. Therefore in this case, the Cost Report has to be RECEIVED by SAE Australasia by 21st October. So hurry! You have less than a week. First class airmail??

[Chris B]

As far as tackling fuel economy goes, clutch and roll down the hill :P nah seriously though, at UQ we havent even worried about it.

from where we were last year to where we want to be this year, there were far bigger gains to be had in overall competition placing from improving the pace of the car as opposed to fuel efficiency. from our perspective improving the pace gives you a better chance in all 4 dynamic events which still worth far more points combined than what you get for the fuel economy event. its just how we've prioritised our focus.

[Boffin]

So, three weeks out from comp and who is running?

That I know of:

Monash
Melborne
Auckland
University of Queesland
RMIT (on a dyno at least, would be surprised if it’s not on the track)
UTS (as of today was the plan)
Osaka
Nippon

Questionable
UWA – I would have thought so
ADFA – Not much changing.

[tgman]

UNSW is running, first test yesterday.

[carbon_black]

Boffin, for once our plan worked out, we are without bodywork though.

I believe the Sydney guys are up and running too. Not sure about ADFA.

[Jack Bellotti]

QUT was on the dyno on the 25th and is testing on the 30th/1st Dec.

[Rex Chan]

Any links to photos/videos?

I've got some fb photos here: MUR FSAE 2011: Day 10/11 Testing (http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150404797048036.362186.559588035&type=1)

[NickFavazzo]

UWA Motorsport got to track on Tuesday Saturday and Sunday before shipping on the 5th of december. not much driving this year due to a very young team and engine trouble early on, I look forward to driving at silhouette thoughhttp://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

On that note: I called them on Monday morning and was told they are closed on tuesdays and have a booking on Wednesday morning, can any melbourne teams confirm if them being closed on the Tuesdays is just to public or do they allow you teams to run?

Also We may be in need of an alternate test track/area what facilities do other teams use? I know there are a few kart tracks around but I am not sure how they manage the insurance. In WA cars over 600cc cannot drive on the track (CAMS vs AKA) I am not sure if that is the case over there...

[Rex Chan]

I can confirm that Silhouette have changed their opening days, so are now closed to everyone (including FSAE) on a Tuesday.

We use Top Karts (Epping) as our alternate track, but have told us they are only going to allow RMIT and Melbourne on their track this year. Can't hurt to ask though, as its so close to comp.

We've also been to AARC in Anglesea this Monday, and are going again in 2 hours time. They told us they'll give an FSAE team a day, maybe two.

Monash run at a local kart track, but I'll let Marty give you the right info.

[Rex Chan]

Just an update on who we've (Melbourne Uni) seen running before comp, on the eve of FSAE-A 2011:

Wed: Some of our team went to Silhouette to bed in brakes, and ssaw UTS, QUT, and ECU also there.

Monday: We scrubbed in tyres at Silhouette, and saw UTS and Auckland get on track.

We've also seen RMIT at Top Kart, doing skidpad (last week).

And of course, we've run into Monash a few times at Sil.

[mech5496]

http://motorsport.mech.uwa.edu...alia-2011/day-4.html (http://motorsport.mech.uwa.edu.au/news/the-competition/australia-2011/day-4.html)

Surprised by the air deflectors before the front tires...Reminds me of a Class 3 entry of ours back in 2007, where our front wing had a 3rd element in the area of the front tires do deflect the airflow past them and sidepods did the same for the rears. Really curious to see if any benefits (from reduced drag?) vs added weight (and the subsequent increase in yaw inertia) there!

[TMichaels]

Is this still considered to be an open-wheeled formula style car?

Regards,

Tobias

[Rex Chan]

A few photos from Day 1 (thursday): FSAE-A 2011: Thursday (http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150438375613036.365685.559588035&type=3#!/media/set/?set=a.10150438375613036.365685.559588035&type=1)

[KingCong]

Wow ECU going with the lotus livery and the WINGS!!!

Couldn't make it to the comp this year keep on posting the pics!!!!

[Rex Chan]

I'll try to take a lot more on Friday. I was a bit shy with the camera today, but I'll get more from tilt/noise/brakes/practice track.

ECu have massive wings, but only through chassis.

Any particular requests (teams, parts, etc)?

I personally find on track shots boring, so I'll mainly take close up shotsof engine, suspension, etc.

[Mbirt]

Requests: Picture hosting on sites other than facebook for those of us whose workplaces have blocked the site. UNSW-ADFA's suspension. Auckland's engine. UWA's exhaust tips.

[Michael Royce]

Tobias,
I agree with you. Looking at the photos, the UWA car does not meet the "open wheeled" requirements that we have laid down in the past for FSAE or F Student, namely that one should be able to see the complete uppermost 180 degrees of all 4 tyres when viewed from above.

I am sure it will be "corrected" before they try to go through Tech Inspection.

[Crispy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by Michael Royce:
Tobias,
I agree with you. Looking at the photos, the UWA car does not meet the "open wheeled" requirements that we have laid down in the past for FSAE or F Student, namely that one should be able to see the complete uppermost 180 degrees of all 4 tyres when viewed from above.

I am sure it will be "corrected" before they try to go through Tech Inspection. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> 2012 FSAE rules
"B2.1 Vehicle Configuration
The vehicle must be open-wheeled and open-cockpit (a formula style body) with four (4) wheels that
are not in a straight line." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the only reference in the rules that I could find to "open wheeled". If a 180 degree rule was enforced, most recent aero cars with a rear wings (and some front wings) would be illegal.

Edit: Just realized this is a 2011 event... The relevant rules are the same in either case.

[TMichaels]

I suppose such "wheel covers" violate the intention of the rule in contrast to rear wings for example, which may cover the rear wheels looking at the car from above, but do not violate the intention.

Regards,

Tobias

[KingCong]

Hey Rex
Pictures of the foreign teams would be great, as well as UWAs rear diffuser/exhaust, actually just take whatever you can. I agree that static images of components rather than track pictures are more exciting; cockpit area would be awesome (seats, steering, dash, pedal box)


GO UTSM!!!!

[NilsonTotti]

@ Tobias/Michael

I think that's not correct. Like Chris stated the rule is not violated. And if you think about other cars in history there are frontwings that build up in this areas for the same effect. Also teams use their sidepods to cover the rear wheels like the way UWA do with their front wheels. Like Harry stated. And no one every complain about that.

[Luniz]

Seems like some team is getting themselves a custom rule in the rules book ;-) Although the intention of the rule is quite clear, the exact wording is not, so the rules committee may want to clarify this.

[Lorenzo Pessa]

That kind of cover is a on the borderline of an open wheel concept.
I hope UWA ask to rules committee or similar to have some answers about that.

The rules are not clear so I think that UWA can run with that (and I'm extremely curious to see that car racing)

There is another grey area in the aero rules about power aerodynamics. It seem to be banned from FSAE.
"Power ground effects are prohibited" but rear wing don't work in ground effect...


What kind of pics I like to see?
The way wings are mounted on the cars.
Cockpits.

[Pete Marsh]

Regarding the UWA front fairings, they passed through tech ok, with some questions, but we were subsequently told to trim them back after an intervention from the rules committee.

We will cut them as requested and add a bit of a Gurney flap to achieve much the same result without looking quite so good.

It's not the first time we have had "rule clarifications" on the first day of comp, and this one is pretty easy to fix.

Thanks for your interest in our race car, we like it too.

Pete

Actually, I've just been informed the cut down fairing wont do much so we will simply remove them. Also this way we can put them on and run them after comp. One of the molds was damaged when they were made so we can't make any more, and we want to finish the testing so the results can be used in the thesis project that created them.

We are looking at some 3 liter milk cartons that might be close to the right shape ........

Pete

[Rex Chan]

Hey guys! I'm only reading this after Friday of Comp, so will take note of your requests for Sat/Sunday. Sadly, fb is the easiest way for me to upload, so you'll just have to check it out at home - sorry.

For those interested in UWA, they didn't fully pass tech today. They went through tech, but I saw them later on in the welding bay. I'm pretty sure they haven;t done tilt or noise.

Michael Royce: when UWA went through tech, they didn't get picked up for the front aero stuff - just had to put rubber for edge protection.

The first car through all 3 stages of tech was ADFA. Also through all 3 by the end of the day are Wollongong, ECU, USyd, Osaka, Nippon, UQ, Curtin, Adelaide, UTS.

Monash still have to pass noise. ADFA spent a lot of time on the practice track. ECU look very ready & prepared.

[Rex Chan]

FSAE-A 2011: Friday (Scrut, Tilt, Noise) [December 16, 2011] (http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150440442878036.365987.559588035&type=1)

[TMichaels]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It's not the first time we have had "rule clarifications" on the first day of comp, and this one is pretty easy to fix. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
@Pete:
Why have you not just handed in a rules question before comp?

Regards,

Tobias

[Mbirt]

Here's what Dallara and the IRL thinks of the open-wheel concept:
http://www.auto123.com/ArtImages/131119/irl-dallara-2012-2-inline.jpg
Just some food for thought...

[mech5496]

Sorry for being an @ss, but can we keep it on one thread only?! Either here on http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/t...07348/m/36820711151, (http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/825607348/m/36820711151,) your call! Could be better if the moderators could merge the two topics.... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[NickFavazzo]

@TMichaels, We sought a rules clarification, what we received deemed plenty of aero teams ineligible also. A poorly worded rule and teams already violate it. Even the new rule/clarification we received can be interpreted in such a way we can still cover the tyre.

UWAM have decided to remove them as we have more pressing issues to worry about, but when we get home/driver swap day they will be out again in force.

[Thrainer]

Congratulations to Monash for taking the overall win and an awesome skidpad performance (seems like the front wing keeps the car from rolling over). But also congratulations to UWA, who won dynamics overall.

I read somewhere the UWA car was a second-year vehicle. Is that correct?
Why are there 50 points only for presentation but 200 for design? Seems like every competition needs their own rules changes. That's a bit annoying, since points distribution is changing the design target for the car.
UWA was able to win autocross and endurance/fuel (is it efficiency like at FSG or economy like at FS?). Some simulations tell us that a concept like RMIT or Monash should score more points in dynamics overall. Was UWA exceptionally strong of did their competitors have some bad luck?
On the Monash car, I still haven't figured out exactly how the front wing is attached (to the unsprung?) and how the DRS is actuated.
Are any of the Aussie teams coming to Europe next year?

Regards
Thomas

[Rex Chan]

Monash is attached to uprights (front & rear). They do aero proeprly.

There is no DRS, or anything that moves the aero bits while moving (at least not controlled).

I was marshalling at the left handed sweeper at the driver swap, so got to see the MOnash & UWA front aero bits in action:

Monash: the front wing seems to move around a lot; kind of like its shaking around (mainly in roll axis).

UWA: the front faring thing also seems to move/shake/vibrate a lot, relative to the front wheel.

I'm an engine guy, so these are just what I saw (i.e. I know nothing about aero).

About UWA vs RMIT vs Monash vs sims: do these take into account driver skill/experience? Or quality of construction/amount of testing?