Running motor on NO ECU?

[nkar1]

Hi all, I am new to the board and new to F1. The UCI F1 team has acquired a Yamaha FZ-6 motor. Being on the engine management team, my individual task was to find out if it is possible to run the motor without using any ECU. To me this sounds pretty ridiculous as the ECU controls the amount of fuel injected into the cylinders, but my professor wanted to know if it was possible. From the other discussions I found that most people go with the PE AEM or MoTeC EMS systems, which will probably be what we do. Our task is to get the engine running, and being a first year F1 team, some have suggested using the power commander unit. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

[nkar1]

Hi all, I am new to the board and new to F1. The UCI F1 team has acquired a Yamaha FZ-6 motor. Being on the engine management team, my individual task was to find out if it is possible to run the motor without using any ECU. To me this sounds pretty ridiculous as the ECU controls the amount of fuel injected into the cylinders, but my professor wanted to know if it was possible. From the other discussions I found that most people go with the PE AEM or MoTeC EMS systems, which will probably be what we do. Our task is to get the engine running, and being a first year F1 team, some have suggested using the power commander unit. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

[SimonUK]

You could runs carbs and a vacc distributor and not need an ECU. I don't think your F1 team would be able to keep up with Mclarens or Renaults though

[Psychosis]

the only way to do what you want, without electronics, i.e. any form of closed loop feedback, is to extend the crank and attach a distributor then run carbs.

[Z]

No ECU?

Ignition is straightforward, as mentioned above. Just coil, points, distributor, and centrifugal advance (vacuum not necessary) running off a camshaft.

I guess you could build some kind of mechanical control for the solenoid operated injectors. A camshaft mounted cam with "points" type switches to turn on the injectors, and a throttle position connected linkage that varies the "dwell angle" of the switches, and so varies the amount of fuel injected. And then a centrifugal linkage for speed compensation, and two thermostat linkages for air and engine temperature compensation, and, umm, lambda feedback might be tricky...

An interesting exercise, but some of those cheap ECU's would have to be a lot easier. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Z

[Cement Legs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">.....I don't think your F1 team would be able to keep up with Mclarens or Renaults though </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah but who have they signed to drive http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[RiNaZ]

i think all of the freshmen in my team still call it F1 instead of FSAE. Now i know why we spent 5 hours in a meeting and 10 mins in the machine shop http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Denny Trimble]

We should just call ourselves the "Formula One Solar SAE Go Kart Team" and cover all the bases.

[clausen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Denny Trimble:
We should just call ourselves the "Formula One Solar SAE Go Kart Team" and cover all the bases. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lol

[Bubba]

That is sooo true. No one can get he name straight if they are not on the team (especially non-engineers and non-engineering students... dam arts)

If you want to learn the hard way, run a carb engine and see why the automotive industry has pretty much entirely moved to electornic engine control.

[kozak]

My favorite is go cart you have no idea how many people call fsae and baja go carts when ever i try to explain to them what we do. i even had some one call our baja car a golf cart as in (Insert redneck voice here) "damn is that ya'll's golf cart? damn and ya'll got NOS!" refering to our nitrogen tank for the shocks.

[Kevin Hayward]

It gets much worse,

First try explaining what Formula SAE is to your non-engineering friends and family ...

Then try explaining that you would rather work on prototype sportscars than Formula 1 if you ever had the chance to do either.

Just shows the incredible marketing success of F1.

Kev

[MikeWaggoner at UW]

I think my favorite thing is going to a bar with an SAE shirt or hat, and talking to some pretty young lady. She invariably asks, "Are you in SAE?", a la Sigma Alpha Epsilon. I explain, she gets a look on her face like I ran over her dog, and suddenly she remembers she left the iron on.

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MikeWaggoner at UW:
I think my favorite thing is going to a bar with an SAE shirt or hat, and talking to some pretty young lady. She invariably asks, "Are you in SAE?", a la Sigma Alpha Epsilon. I explain, she gets a look on her face like I ran over her dog, and suddenly she remembers she left the iron on. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ya, darn frats stealin all the girls....they need to get into racing not loosers in some Greek house deal.

[scooter2131]

Try living with a kid who wholeheartedly believes ALL engineers are a different breed of people thanks to his fathers odd nuances. He knows exactly what we do but due to his view of engineers refuses to understand why we do it. On top of that, he refuses to acknowledge that we call it a formula car and persists in making everyone who hears about SAE call our cars go karts. It really makes you feel good about the work you do. What would we do without non-engineering friends? As for the Sigma Alpha Epsilon confusion: just tell the ladies you build racecars and that you have no association with the fraternity nor have you every seen a rufie. If you find a chick that likes that you're set. Later pimps.

[El Joe]

El Joe says:
Mike: I think it is not your team`s t-shirt, it is just you who can`t find a girl!
nkar1: why go for carb when you can use a cheap, RELIABLE, and well tested stock ECU on your first F1 car?

[Big Bird]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cement Legs:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">.....I don't think your F1 team would be able to keep up with Mclarens or Renaults though </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah but who have they signed to drive http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's a bloke a couple of threads over who would give it a go. Seems he could beat Alonso et al on his old man's ride-on mower. Well, that's if you believe his website http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Sorry, gotta go - time for my weekly botox and bikini line wax...

Cheers all

[Big Bird]

By the way - sorry nkar1, we have taken over your thread. I assume your lecturer is proposing some sort of backup system in case you don't get the ECU / fuel injection up and running? A good backup strategy in principle - but I'm not so sure it would be too easy to build a carb setup for the inline 4 that successfully feeds through the restrictor. I guess it could be done, but the complexity of the problem might mean you spend as much time getting it working as the ECU - pretty well nullifying any project management advantage.

A principle used successfully by Wollongong in their first year was to build a car and get it running early on the standard carbs without the restrictor. That way there is a running car to test drivetrain, chassis, brakes, gearshift, suspension settings etc. I think they had the carb car running about three/four months before the event - and then retrofitted the fuel injection when it was ready.

More power to your team though, for looking at backup strategies and minimizing risk.

Cheers all

[Kirk Feldkamp]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by drivetrainUW-Platt: ya, darn frats stealin all the girls....they need to get into racing not loosers in some Greek house deal. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or you could do both. Get the girls and race too... Did your smart non-greek types figure out those brakes yet? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Be careful who you're calling a loser. There is an equivalent of a meathead on an FSAE team too.

It never ceases to amaze me how many negative things are said about fraternities, but hey, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Frankly, the only interface most people (and engineers especially it seems) have with fraternities is when they go to parties. Parties aren't a good indicator of anything. I certainly wouldn't be who I am today as a leader without having held a position in my fraternity. I'm just one of the nut cases that found the time to be active in both a fraternity and FSAE. Don't be so quick to judge.

-Kirk

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

maybe things are different down at your college, but up by us they are "fraturnities", who claim they are better then "frats" we had a few guys on the team, and they liked to suck there frats dick any time we gave them crap about it so thats why I'm ranting...sorry if its not that way where your from.

[Daves]

As a rookie team, I would also advise to use the stock ECU if the FZ-6 came with one. We used a Honda CBR600 F4i engine with its stock ECM and a Dynojet Power Commander, and it turned out to work fairly well. We were practically a rookie team, though. For a 2nd year team, I would advise looking into other ones (seems like you already have somewhat).

[nkar1]

is power commander the best choice for a rookie team? Would the stock ECU work with the restrictor? We want to get the motor running and then tune it to run fairly well.

[B Lewis @ PE Engine Management]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nkar1:
is power commander the best choice for a rookie team? Would the stock ECU work with the restrictor? We want to get the motor running and then tune it to run fairly well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you from U of CA - Irvine? If so, I think that you guys have one of our older units around there somewhere. I thought that you guys had a team a couple of years ago and they ran our stuff. If so and you need some help getting it up and running give me a call at 513-777-5233.

[Kamil S]

I like the idea of having a non-restricted engine for testing the chassis/brakes/drivetrain/etc.. components of the car. Thanks for that post!

nkar1, in my (very) humble opinion I think it would be hard to explain to the judges why you didn't go for an ECU and decided to run carbs and/or mechanical controls for that matter. While it would be cool to develop some kind of mechanical control (again back to the debate of innovation vs. design), a main question that might come across your way would be why is it easier/simpler than an ECU.

The other thing is while non-ECU engines are a good way to learn about particular performance characteristics, the real learning exprerience that you would need would have to be that which involves some electric system at least. If I am not mistaken that's where all of today's engine interest goes in.

I've heard a guy tell me about "direct" fuel injection and its benefits, just wanted to hear your opinions about that...

[nathan s]

From what I understand, Power Commander is fairly simple to use. It is all I know of our team using. If you have a guy that knows electronics, I think Meqasquirt is supposed to be pretty good.

Stock ECU's need to be reprogrammed, which is why most teams use something else.

On explaining FSAE to people: For a couple of months, my ex and her friends (nursing majors) thought "Formula Team" meant some sort of Math club.

[nkar1]

Yes, its University of California Irvine. Brian, do you know what year the team was that used PE? Would it be in our best interest to use the older model PE on the FZ6 or buy a new power commander?

[Daves]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">is power commander the best choice for a rookie team? Would the stock ECU work with the restrictor? We want to get the motor running and then tune it to run fairly well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The P.C. may or may not be the best choice, but it is fairly inexpensive, tunable, and easy to set up.

I am not sure if the stock ECU would work with your specific restricted engine (with or without the Power Commander). I know that our CBR600 F4i could run without the P.C., but we found more torque and power through editing the fuel map. We left the ignition map alone.

The main reason we used the Dynojet PC was because our dyno sponsor specifically had a Dynojet dynamometer and software to tune the maps. We tuned our engine on a motorcycle dyno.

Yoshimura also offers a similar product to the Power Commander.

The Performance Electronics (or similar) unit may also be a good choice because people like Brian Lewis are available to help with any questions. Also, you may kick yourself when it comes to the cost report if you use the stock ECU.

[Kyle Jeffries]

As a first year team in 2005, the best decision we made was to use the Performance Electronics ECU. It's cost effective, easy to use, and they offer outstanding support. There is a reason that a majority of teams in FSAE use it.

Kyle Jeffries
USF SAE

[B Lewis @ PE Engine Management]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nkar1:
Yes, its University of California Irvine. Brian, do you know what year the team was that used PE? Would it be in our best interest to use the older model PE on the FZ6 or buy a new power commander? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I went back and looked at our records. The system was purchased on 3/3/2003 so I guess it would have been used by the '03 team. I thought they were using it on an R6 or F4i with ethanol.

[Deano]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Denny Trimble:
We should just call ourselves the "Formula One Solar SAE Go Kart Team" and cover all the bases. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are a few staff members here who continue to introduce us to visitors as "Formula One Students". I can see the disappointment on their faces as they realise we are merely "standard students".

We are also often referred to collectively as "Formula-Students" which possibly implies we are some sort of genetic experiment courtesy of the biology department http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Dean
...a Formula Student from Loughborough

[nkar1]

Thanks a lot Brian! We will probably be calling you for troubleshooting if that is okay...probably after we get things set up. Our advisors want us to get the engine running with the restrictor by the end of the summer, and if we dont then there wont be a team this year.

[Kamil S]

deadlines, deadlines, deadlines... you gotta love it.

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

Are there any teams out there running carb 4's any more? I saw a single doing it, but dont recall any others.

[D-Train]

It seems the best answer for your professor might be something along the lines of 'yes, it can run with no ecu, but it's not really reccomended/ideal', particularly when you can plug all sorts of sensors into some of them these days for data aquisition purposes. ECU will give you so much more tuning ability. The only experience I've had with engine management was an introduction to the MoTeC systems, and I was amazed at how many compensators you could include for the fuel maps, ignition timing, etc, etc. Also added functions can come in handy later - shifting mechanisms, traction control... The guys at MoTeC will usually reccomend you get the next model up from what you're looking at to avoid having to buy another new ECU next year when you need some more functions from it (or at least that's what they told us...)

With reguard to explaining FSAE - i hate it when people think it's all about the races, not the design, and when they get shocked that it only gets 'raced' once in the year. Plus, all the standard questions get annoying - 'how fast does it go?', 'who gets to drive it?', and '...so why do you put so much time into this thing?'.