Parts Swapping between events legality?

[Charlie]

I heard at the SAE banquet something about making it legal or illegal to change springs between events. Does anyone know more about this, specifically which direction they are taking?

It also brings up a question I've had for awhile. In my opinion the car should stay the same for all events. Suspension adjustments are fine, but you can't add, remove, or exchange components. I suppose springs would fall into that category but its a gray area.

But that opinion was skewed a bit at FSAE-A. Two endurance events mean teams scramble to fix problems after failing the first enduro. Teams were adding second radiators, changing cars around a great deal. This to me seems illegal, but of course not worth debating because the spirit of the competition is more important than technicalities.

But this logic follows that teams could run a tiny radiator for all events besides enduro. A different intake and exhaust for acceleration, different track width for skidpad, a great deal of things that most would consider illegal.

So where do you draw the line? Does SAE clarify this anywhere in the rules? Comments?

[-]

I have learned that if its not spelled out in the rules clearly then go for it. I would personally love to see a rule change made that mandates that teams run their car for a full minute after weighing in. How many people would agree with this.

As for your specific comment about springs and such between events, I would say this falls into the realm of suspension adjustments for the simple reason that the changing springs is an "adjustment". The ball is in each teams court to make it fast as possible to change springs out so that if they want to between events change them they can.

[Charlie]

I agree about the springs- but at the banquet during the discussion of new rule changes for 05 Michael Royce (I think it was him) spoke of clarifying the allowance of spring changes in the new rules. I just was not sure if he meant they would allow them or not allow them. Anyone have a better seat than us?

[Denny Trimble]

I believe they are going to allow spring changes, but we'll have to wait for the official word on this.

As to the rest of the part swapping, radiators etc- I believe that's against the spirit of the rules. Heck, we carried 3 radiators around the whole time this year http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Tidexcab99]

Charlie, its David from Bama. As you know we didnt stick around for the banquet..and so we dont know the possible rule changes for next year. can you pm me what you remember those changes were....b/c a rolling chassis is my senior design project, and like Ive told you we are starting on it now.

[Angry Joe]

I think it would be impossible (and incredibly anal) to police spring rates. Many teams also run different fuel maps for the endurance, which I don't think is a problem. 'Tuning' items should not be prohibited. Weight rules should handle most of the other items.

Part of the experience is setting the car up for the track, right?

[BeaverGuy]

This is a relevant portion of the rules:
4.2.2 Inspection & Testing
Each vehicle must pass all parts of the safety and technical inspection, and
bear the inspection stickers, before it is permitted to participate in any
dynamic event or to run on the practice track. The exact procedures and
instruments employed for inspection and testing are entirely at the
discretion of the Chief Scrutineer.
Safety and technical inspection will examine all items included on the
Inspection Form found in Appendix A-2 plus any other items the
inspectors may wish to examine to insure conformance with the Rules.
Once a vehicle has passed inspection it must remain in the "As-approved"�
condition throughout the competition and may not be modified.
Decisions of the inspectors and the Chief Scrutineer concerning vehicle
compliance are final and are not permitted to be appealed.
Safety and technical inspection is a non-scored activity.


I believe there is another section where something simmilar is stated. In that piece I believe it says that if any modifications to the car are made it must re-pass tech inspection. I just can't find that part at the moment.

[Jarrod]

AS it currently stands, changing springs is illegal. In between autocross runs at Oz we were about to fit gurney flaps to our front wing to try and dial out some understeer, and Michael Royce and Steve Daum told us we weren't allowed to do it. After an extended discussion, and conceding that fitting a gurney was adding a component, I brought up the idea of making a wing flap with integral gurney, and swapping flaps would be no different to swapping springs. At this point they said that changing springs after tech was definitley illegal. I think the intent is to make any change at all illegal, so there is no gray area for argument. I don't know if they intend changing that, but that is the way it is currently.

Jarrod Hammond
Monash University FSAE
www-personal.monash.edu.au/~fsae

[Angry Joe]

Is this racing or is it fucking kindergarden?

Not allowed to tune the car? I've been bitching a lot lately but this is the DUMBEST thing I've heard yet. Not that it matters because anyone that's halway intelligent will ignore it anyway.

[-]

>Is this racing or is it fucking kindergarden?

Point put nicely, I would like to first see somebody fight this, and on top of that I would like to see the people from SAE police it in the first place.

On a side note, is Lehigh going to have a car out at the Nazareth autocross this weekend?

[Angry Joe]

Good question. Unlikely, since none of the cars is currently running but I'll bug them about it. If nothing else I'll be there with my beat up Integra http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[-]

How far is this year's car from working, and what happened to last year's car. I remember you guys having that and a shifter cart at the last nazareth autocross?

[Angry Joe]

They have a couple karts. One member has a 125cc shifter kart he's been racing for the last 10 years, that was probably what you saw.

The '04 car needs a new chain and I think they are upgrading to a stronger one. The '03 needs a new ignition module, which is a couple hundred bucks...

[-]

Well if you get either of those two cars working, let me know. What sized chain are you guys running on that light little '04 car?

[Charlie]

*In my best Angry Joe Impression*

Is this a post about rule changes or fucking instant messenger?

http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[-]

Point taken... though I think your response needs more profanity in it.

[Angry Joe]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by -:
Point taken... though I think your response needs more profanity in it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Back to the subject at hand...

Rules require that the car weigh within 20 lbs of its official weight throughout the competition. That addresses a lot of issues as far as beefing it up for the endurance. And obviously it has to continue to meet rules.

Otherwise, if you as a team can set a car up to perform optimally for every individual event, I say more power to you...

[Denny Trimble]

Do you want to compete with teams that bring drag slicks to the accel event, 6" tires for skidpad and autocross, and 7" tires for endurance, plus rain equivalents of all? Talk about a budget buster.

[Angry Joe]

Not sure the car would pass tech (specifically braking) with those wheels but I see your point...

Items such as springs, alignment (adding and subtracting camber plates)and engine management are just part of the game though. If you eliminate those you're killing a very important part of the competition...