Derestricted FSAE cars in SCCA

[Racer-X]

I'm sure we've all thought about it. Take the old car and put a motor with hot cams and no resictor in it, then do some modifications to the weaker parts. You'd have 120+ horsepower in a 450 pound car. Our team still uses the F4i and have f4s from the carb'd era that are begging to be modified.

Is there a place where such a thing could be run? I know the university wouldn't want to be associated with it and I'm not sure how SCCA feels about it.

And yes I have driven the car, I actually drive it at comp. Although it is fast and fun it isn't always traction limited...

[Michael Royce]

Racer,
Officially, for an FSAE car to run in SCCA events, it must comply 100% with FSAE Rules. Officially, they do not meet the AMod rules, although some Regions do allow them to run as "AM". That way with the normal limit of 2 driver per car, be 3 or 4 drivers can drive in the event.

If you pull the restrictor off an FSAE car and run it, you may be putting the Region in some form of jeopardy. These cars are plenty quick enough with the restrictor, so please do not do it.

[theTTshark]

Racer-X, the SCCA has a FSAE class, but like Mr. Royce said it has to meet the rules. Now to be clear, it does not have to meet the 2012 or 2013 rules, so a car can be built to the 2005 or even 1995 rules. Also, I don't know how much you have autocrossed your team's cars, but these things are quick as is. We usually put a couple seconds on shifter karts (the shifter kart drivers in our region placed 4th and 6th at nationals), and at nationals we aren't far off Amod at times. Just go out there and have fun. These cars are hard enough to drive fast with a restrictor. Don't make it harder on yourself. haha

[Racer-X]

I totally agree that the car doesn't need more power, it has the right amount as it is. That said I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks the most fun way around the track is not always the fastest, just ask Jeremy Clarkson.

I can't speak for your car but ours is only hard to drive on the FSAE courses due to how tight they are. On a more open course, like one meant for a fullsize car, I can really get on it without having to worry about hitting cones or spinning out because I'm trying to do a 180* turn in the width of a two lane road.

And thanks for the info about SCCA.

[exFSAE]

After I graduated, the more I thought about it the more the thought of driving a FSAE car (even with stock power and taller gears) on a bigger / open course seemed increasingly like a death wish.

Formula B, Formula 1000, Formula SCCA, something to that effect.. that'd be fun.

[exFSAE]

Originally posted by coleasterling:
De-restricting an already safe(that's my caveat) car doesn't immediately make it a disaster waiting to happen. If you're asking the question at all, then you've been involved in FSAE and should be aware of the risks and precautions you should take. Heck, I know plenty of teams that test their cars without the restrictor because their engines aren't finished being tuned on the dyno.

In my opinion / experience the cars are "safe" in large part due to a course configuration and engine spec that keeps the speeds low.

Personally I've never seen a team track test without the restrictor. I've only been around several dozen teams in 3 years as a student and 3 years after before washing my hands of direct involvement, so it's not to say it doesn't happen. I don't see the point to testing in such configuration though.

Back to the "already safe" bit and speeds. Just bear in mind with these FSAE cars... you have safety-critical components "engineered" by people without engineering degrees. The parts are often machined or welded likewise by kids with no professional certification, late at night while pumping yourself full of energy drinks. Done it myself! Can't vouch for the structural integrity of a frame weld that's made by filling a 3/16" gap between tubes with a pile of ER70S2 filler. Just bear that in mind because even on professionally built and prepped race cars, when you see your driver fly off the track and hit something at 100+ mph, shit gets really real, really fast. Or likewise when a coworker comes back from supporting a race weekend and an unfortunate bit of news is of someone in the paddock having their body split open by a canister of compressed gas.. resulting in the local track/authorities having to use absorbent powder to soak up the blood from the pavement. Safety is not guaranteed professionally, and certainly not at an amateur level - even with best intentions.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for pushing the limit and going all out, and having a fun time in motorsports. That's why I do this stuff for a living. Now that I've been around professional motorsport for 5 years.. on one hand I'd love to get back in a FSAE car and dick around on a tight little cone course. But on the other hand there's no way I'd hop in an unrestricted FSAE car on a bigger track unless I had overseen the design, analysis and manufacture personally as team lead / captain and had total faith in it. From my own year as one of the team captains, I sure as hell would not take that route!

But hey, that's just me. Maybe that makes me a pussy, maybe I'm just starting to accrue some common sense here at the ripe old age of 27. If it were me I'd design and build some common SCCA class car properly rather than retrofit a FSAE built. Take it for what it's worth.

[rrobb]

Exfsae,
Are you messing with us, or have you never heard of autocross?

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

For your own protection, any FSAE car associated with a university should never be driven without full rules compliance. This includes full driver gear and using the restrictor.

Things can and do go wrong sometimes, and there is a (small) chance your driver could be injured, a spectator could be injured or significant property damage could occur anytime the car is driven. While this is unlikely, the consequences are substantial if any of these happens. In the scrutiny that would follow--possibly including lots of attention from lawyers trying to decide who is at fault and who is financially responsible--you need to be able to state that the car was fully rules compliant when the bad thing happened. Don't give anyone a chance to make a connection, real or perceived, between your rules violation and any cause or consequences of the crash. You just don't need to take the risk of running outside FSAE rules.

In my mind, any arguments about how safe or unsafe a car is without a restrictor are secondary in comparison.

While we're on the subject, Pat Clarke wrote a good article about testing in one of his "Pat's Column" entries. Start with the second section on this page:

http://www.formulastudent.de/a...ticle/testing-times/ (http://www.formulastudent.de/academy/pats-corner/advice-details/article/testing-times/)

[exFSAE]

Originally posted by rrobb:
Exfsae,
Are you messing with us, or have you never heard of autocross?

"SCCA" is more than just autocrossing. Are we talking Solo series or are we talking about any SCCA event, like trying to find a way to run on an actual track? Like trying to take the thing to Lime Rock or something.

The latter IMO is a death wish.

Even in Solo, I wouldn't want to run the thing unrestricted... more so for keeping the car in one piece than anything. Gotten better in recent years but these cars have a hard enough time holding themselves together at FSAE speeds much less higher velocity (and along with it hotter tire temps, more grip, suspension load...)

[AxelRipper]

I believe the intent of the thread is running unrestricted in AMod Solo.

On a 4 cylinder, this makes sense... However, on a single, you can make almost as much (naturally aspirated) more than stock power behind the restrictor as you can without it.

[Kirk Feldkamp]

Originally posted by AxelRipper:
I believe the intent of the thread is running unrestricted in AMod Solo.

The point was made by Darth Royce that FSAE cars *generally* do not meet A-Mod rules. This is usually due to wheelbase, as A-Mod minimum is 72" if I recall correctly.

I think the answer from a SCCA Solo racing perspective may be to have two FSAE classes: one that complies with the FSAE engine rules, and another that doesn't. If you read through the A-Mod rules, there really isn't anything spectacularly different from a rules-legal FSAE car except for the engine rules. My guess is the only reason that A-Mod doesn't accept FSAE cars with open arms is that there are a ton of 'standard' A-Mod cars that would get their feelings hurt if FSAE cars could really stretch out their legs. Heck, most formula-esque A-mods are just slightly longer homebuilt FSAE-esque cars with big wings and 1000cc+ engines. You don't see anyone dying or getting hurt on the A-mod grid. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Over the years I have talked to a LOT of engine guys from a LOT of different schools from all around the world, and it is NOT an uncommon thing to run cars unrestricted in practice before the engine hardware and tuning is sorted out. If you believe otherwise, then you simply need to talk to more people!

The reason I'd love to see an de-restricted FSAE class comes down to simplicity. There are a TON of former-spec FSAE cars out there, and personally I think it's a shame there aren't more being used more often. As an owner of a couple of our old cars, it's a GIANT pain in the ass to bring an old car up to the restrictor rules. Old cars are rarely transferred with the engine or engine hardware. This means you have to fabricate a ton of specialized parts to get up and running again, as well as wire up and tune an ECU to deal with the restrictor. Once you're out of school, this is a whole lot more difficult than it should be due to access to proper facilities (for most of us, at least). It would be a whole lot easier to allow stock TB's and stock ECU's in the interest of simplicity. Leave it a max 600cc spec, disallow turbos, and chuck the restrictor. Someone running a lower displacement single will undoubtedly complain that it's not fair, but they probably also haven't run their single against good 600cc competition in a Solo. Well, that's "racing" as they say, and not FSAE. Outright power actually does make a difference in the real world! Haha. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Personally, I find it pretty funny that everyone is so concerned by the extra power. Anyone else here ever driven shifter karts? Haha. You're going faster, wheel to wheel, and there are all sorts of barriers to hit all over the place. I'm not suggesting that's wise with FSAE cars. Rather, I'm suggesting that running with a little more power on a bigass autocross course with nothing but some silly cones to hit is hardly something to be so concerned about.

-Kirk

[Owen Thomas]

Being from Canada, I honestly can't say much aboot the SCCA and it's operations. However, I have thought many minutes about my post-FSAE motorsports hobbyism. So, my thoughts are as follows:

I agree with just about everything Kirk said, except one tiny thing... "Leave it a max 600cc spec, disallow turbos..."

I am surprised to hear this from you in particular! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif But really, if people wanted to develop a smaller engine package with a turbo they should be able to, even in this completely theoretical competition class. As they say, there's no replacement for displacement (add: except boost), and this type of limitation would just mean every car will have a 600. Not to say that every car wouldn't then be a 600 turbo, but it generally seems to be more difficult to turbo a 600-4 than a lower displacement single/twin (compression, packaging, head design, etc).

I think an FSAE+ type class would be awesome, but the FSAE class in SCCA is relatively new, correct? Perhaps with time...

I also think the safety concerns may be valid in some regions more than others, as it may not always be the "big parking lot with squishy cones" platform. As for general safety, as long as the car is decoupled from the university and all possible litigation issues are taken care of, hopping in an unrestricted FSAE car is no different than (other) extreme sports. You understand the risks associated, take steps to mitigate them, and proceed to get your funk on. Technical inspection and corner worker safety are another matter to complicate things, but it honestly can't be any worse than a rusty, stripped down and modded '89 civic being pushed far beyond it's limits.

Just my 0.02 Loonies.

[atm92484]

+1000 to everything Kirk said. I would be all for an official unrestricted naturally aspirated FSAE class (heck call it FSAE-S..."S" for senior citizen).

Restricting an engine is an expensive pain in the butt and honestly I do not think it makes the naturally aspirated cars as slow as SAE likes to think. We had a few restricted cars that made more torque at a lower RPM than their unrestricted versions and would easily walk away from an unrestricted car entering a straight; the unrestricted car could only catch up towards the end when the restrictor started to choke.

If driving an unrestricted car is a death wish, I should have been gone years ago. The trend towards short and narrow makes driving much more difficult than no restrictor yet no one has a problem with a 60" wheelbase and mid-40" track.

[rrobb]

The death wish that people are talking about is in refrence to running an FSAE car on a track (they are right, that would be sucide), not running them without a restrictor.

The Solo rules permit any FSAE car to run provided that is meets FSAE rules for any year. Wanna' run a car built to 2005 rules... go for it, but it must meet all rules for 2005. Same with any other year. That includes restrictors. Keeping the restrictor rules isn't about keeping the cars safe, but about the can of worms that is opened anytime that you allow exceptions to established rule sets.

I don't think that the restrictors are about saftey anyway. They provide a meens by which the rules makers can attempt to equalize the power levels at the upper end. Another major reason is to introduce an extra challange to an engineering competition. Autocross style events were chosen by the SAE because Solo is the safest and most accessable motorsport venue available, but this is about engineering, not motorsports.

If FSAE really wants to get serious about saftey, then they can forget about all the worthless front and side impact stuff and focus on fire and high voltage (for electric and hybrids) saftey. Those two areas are much, much more likley to hurt someone than an impact of any kind. In both these areas the SAE has done a better job than the SCCA, but there is still a lot of room for improvment.

Impacts with hard objects are very, very rare on any autocross course that meets the SCCA Solo course design standards (Section 2.3 of the SCCA Solo Rulebook). And yes, I am a SCCA Solo Saftey Steward and my regions Chief of Tech (responsible for pre event vehicle saftey checks).

A quick note about SCCA Tech inspections; we are currently seriously lacking in the necessary knoweldge for inspecting high voltage electrical systems. This is an area that I feel we really need to get up to speed on, and quick, because it's comming. I was not in the Tech tent at Nationals this year so I don't have any first hand knoweldge, but a hybrid FSAE car ran during competition and I'm wondering how much those that approved it really knew about it's electrical systems. None of the course workers were briefed on how to safely approach the vehicle in the event of an on course incident, and this concerns me greatly.

Another quick note:
As someone who hopes to one day build the fastest autocross car on the planet http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, I've done a fair bit of study on the differences between the FSAE and A-Mod rulesets.
Regarding national level autocross potential, I see the key differences as follows;


A-Mod:

+ Sliding skirts
+ Two strokes
+ No restrictors or displacement limit
+ No overhang limit (diffusers & front wings)
+ No "open wheel" requirement
+ No cockpit template

- 900 lbs ! min weight (with driver)
- 900 lbs !! min weight
- No traction control or active diffs
- No unsprung aero http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
- No active aero
- 72 in min wheelbase

? 42 in min track
? Max height


FSAE

+ No min weight!
+ Unsprung aero
+ Active aero
+ Traction control
+ 60 min wheelbase
+ No min weight!

- No ground contact except for tires
- Max rear overhang (limits diffuser area)
- No Two strokes
- Restrictors and displacement limit
- Cockpit template
- Unnecessary impact requirements (costs money and development time)
- Rear pushbar


I think that a car can be built faster under FSAE rules, but it remains to be seen if anyone can consistently do it. Most FSAE cars don't get the devlopment time required to be top finishers at Solo events. The other big factor is the drivers. No offence, but most aren't anywhere near the level of national Solo drivers.


Cory

[Jon Burford]

It's is especially popular where I am from to build the lightest car possible and fit a large motorcycle engine in the back. It's done in sheds and by pro's too, if you need convincing, have a look at the PCD saxon, a 220kg hill climb car with a >1000cc in it.
In my opinion, as long as the cars are competed in a proper event/enviroment which is suitable to the way in which the car has been designed then there should be no problem! (I should point out that we have a minimum wheelbase rule though.)
I believe the owner of the only (?) saxon is a member of this forum incidentally.
Please enjoy this video of him at Doune HillClimb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRZu64dTUcc

[Racer-X]

Originally posted by Jon Burford:
It's is especially popular where I am from to build the lightest car possible and fit a large motorcycle engine in the back. It's done in sheds and by pro's too, if you need convincing, have a look at the PCD saxon, a 220kg hill climb car with a >1000cc in it.
In my opinion, as long as the cars are competed in a proper event/enviroment which is suitable to the way in which the car has been designed then there should be no problem! (I should point out that we have a minimum wheelbase rule though.)
I believe the owner of the only (?) saxon is a member of this forum incidentally.
Please enjoy this video of him at Doune HillClimb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRZu64dTUcc

Now that looks fun.

[Racer-X]

I don't think it would be any more dangerous to run a car without a restrictor than with. I'll even say an N/A non restricted car could run in FSAE no problem if the rules allowed. The car wouldn't go much faster on an FSAE course, only be harder to drive, as it is we are rarely power limited. Where the power would be nice is on an auto-x course where an FSAE car is tiny compared to the track.

We aren't as fortunate as some schools, and our school does not want us running a non rules compliant car. As far as they are concerned it is unsafe and is a liability. If we did this it would require taking the old car before it is junked, stripping off anything associating it with the school or sponsors, and run it as our own car at SCCA or something.

[mdavis]

Originally posted by rrobb:
Another quick note:
As someone who hopes to one day build the fastest autocross car on the planet http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, I've done a fair bit of study on the differences between the FSAE and A-Mod rulesets.
Regarding national level autocross potential, I see the key differences as follows;


A-Mod:

+ Sliding skirts
+ Two strokes
+ No restrictors or displacement limit
+ No overhang limit (diffusers & front wings)
+ No "open wheel" requirement
+ No cockpit template

- 900 lbs ! min weight (with driver)
- 900 lbs !! min weight
- No traction control or active diffs
- No unsprung aero http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
- No active aero
- 72 in min wheelbase

? 42 in min track
? Max height


FSAE

+ No min weight!
+ Unsprung aero
+ Active aero
+ Traction control
+ 60 min wheelbase
+ No min weight!

- No ground contact except for tires
- Max rear overhang (limits diffuser area)
- No Two strokes
- Restrictors and displacement limit
- Cockpit template
- Unnecessary impact requirements (costs money and development time)
- Rear pushbar


I think that a car can be built faster under FSAE rules, but it remains to be seen if anyone can consistently do it. Most FSAE cars don't get the devlopment time required to be top finishers at Solo events. The other big factor is the drivers. No offence, but most aren't anywhere near the level of national Solo drivers.


Cory

Having done similar research, I believe the max height in A-mod is 66" (rule 18.4B 11) and max aero device width of 75" (Rule 18.4B 10). The way I read the roll hoop rules, for a car up to 1000lb without driver, the main hoop only needs to be 1" x .060 as well (Appendix C Section B 2), and if you're building a car to be 900lbs with driver, then this should be no problem.

[atm92484]

What year did the 20mm restrictor become a rule and does anyone have a rulebook from that year?