2013 Formula chassis rules

[Grand Valley]

Hey guys, Grand Valley State University is in the process of getting our Formula SAE team started and we have a few questions. We wanted to start by asking if anyone knows if you can purchase a chassis instead of building one? Some of the advice we have gotten has told us that since it is our first year, we should purchase a working chassis so we have something to build off of. We feel that this will save us alot of time and development in our opening stages. any advice will be helpful.
Thanks
GV

[Pete Marsh]

Before jumping straight into the chassis rules, you really should read the entire book. Try for example the very first rule -

A1.1 Formula SAE Competition Objective
The Formula SAE ® Series competitions challenge teams of university undergraduate and graduate students to conceive, design, fabricate, develop and compete with small, formula style, vehicles

A student design and build competition.... with a purchased, designed by a professional business, chassis? Really?


Anyway, the rules already go 90% of the way for you if you stick with the standard steel tube frame chassis. Along with a heap of pics of existing cars, and some soul searching consideration of "why would they do that?" or "Why make a rule about .....?" you should have no problem coming up with a safe, legal, and functional chassis. As a first year car, they are all the boxes you should be worried about. Don't believe me? Research the finishing rate for first year teams, and maybe even visit/call the ones that did well and chat to them about how they did it.

Pete

[Racer-X]

You can't buy a chassis... Its not allowed and it misses the point.

Like Pete said the rules basically give you a chassis. What you have to do is determine suspension points and connect the dots between what is required.

If you look at other cars you can get a good idea of what you need to do and where to start.

[Claude Rouelle]

My opinion is that this would totally be outside both the rules and the spirit of FSAE.

Note: If you want to be in Michigan next May or Nebraska next June, and your team is that young, taking into account you should ideally start testing in January or February I would seriously consider a 2 year plan.

Did any of your new team member ever attended a FSAE / FS competition? I want to be sure you all understand the challenges you are facing.

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

Grand Valley State University is not currently registered for 2013 Michigan or Lincoln. Hopefully they're trying for 2014, not '13.

I don't have an official say, but I agree that buying a chassis is completely against the letter and spirit of the competitions.

Let me echo Claude's advice: Your team should attend the 2013 Michigan or Lincoln event (as spectators) and absorb as much as you can. It's the only way to truly comprehend what is expected at these competitions. Talk with the teams, watch tech inspection, watch the static events, ask to sit in on a team's design review, enjoy the dynamic events and take copious notes throughout.

[acedeuce802]

We're trying to start a yearly "test and tune" day near Flint, MI. We're not sure if it's going to be a before comp "get things tuned and finalized" or an after comp "development day" yet, but we'll make sure to keep you guys in mind, and see if you have a running car next season. It'd be cool to get know another Michigan FSAE team, and share ideas and concepts.

[Michael Royce]

GV,
For a start, come on down to the FSAE Workshop hosted by the Detroit Section SAE at the U of Michigan-Dearborn campus on Saturday, October 27th. It will give you a chance to get a grounding, talk to some of the judges and to a number of other FSAE teams, and look at some cars that will be there.

[Grand Valley]

Thanks for the input guys. just to clarify we were thinking about purchasing an old teams design, not a professionally built one, just so we have something tangible to work with. we are pretty new and have limited skills. over the past 2 months we have acquired a bunch of new guys and our overall knowledge and skill base has greatly increased. we also have some very good leads on some big sponsors and hope they will come through for us. a few of us did actually attend the MI sae competition and got to talk to a bunch of teams and get some good pointers. we also have a few guys that are in the process of really breaking down the rule book so we have a better understanding. overall we are off to a good start but as a new team we have a ton to learn if we are going to be ready by 2013/2014.

[Mbirt]

GV,

You should hook up with the Hope College FSAE team. They had a quite a successful rookie effort in 2010 but we haven't seen much of them since. Maybe you could trade them a Baja team for a Formula team.

[BMH]

about purchasing an old teams design, not a professionally built one, just so we have something tangible to work with. we are pretty new and have limited skills. over the past 2 months we have acquired a bunch of new guys and our overall knowledge and skill base has greatly increased. we also have some very good leads on some big sponsors and hope they will come through for us. a few of us did actually attend the MI sae competition and got to talk to a bunch of teams and get some good pointers. we also have a few guys that are in the process of really


As far as the frame goes, there is no need to "buy" a frame from another team, even as a baseline. Additionally, the frame is technically supposed to be on of the last things you design, particularly after your suspension. The chassis is there to essentially hold everything together. You do not want to build a suspension geometry to your frame but rather build a frame to your suspension geometry if that makes sense.

I would recommend spending some time to do a lot of research. First and foremost, read the rule book in its entirety. Next, start doing some research. There are many great books out there to read. I personally suggest the Carroll Smith books as a starter. Race Car Vehicle Dynamics is also a very valuable source of information.

Another thing you could do is contact a local university that has a FSAE team and see if they would let you visit. You can use this opportunity to get an idea what all is involved in building a car.

Good luck with everything!

[Alan Meinecke]

I believe an old chassis from another team is still considered off limits for competition due to the "1 year"rule.

[Dr Tron]

I think that you could get a frame from another team and modify it "significantly" and be rules compliant, with that in mind if you do have a frame design you could have a company like Cartesian and have them fish-mouth all tubes to the right size and angle and even weld it if desired.

I disagree with teams that are saying that a purchased frame would be "against the spirit of the comp" that's foolish. EVERY team in this comp has purchased parts on their cars, we all stand on the shoulders of those that came before us. Even if a frame was purchased its still a monumental task to be a first year team.

With that said if I was on a first year team I would got through and develop a frame in cad that is rules compliant and then have Cartesian both cut and weld it, but its not cheap.

Good luck GV

[Racer-X]

Dr Tron, I think that it misses the point if you buy a frame or use an existing design. This is two fold.

First it means the students missed out on doing some design and fab work that is realistic to do in house. The chassis is not the engine or the ECU. At its most basic level it is a structure that most Engineering students should be able to figure out (might not be optimal...). This is a major opportunity for us as students to apply what we learn.

Second buying a chassis really limits what you can do with suspension set up and packaging. The chassis is the backbone of the car and it is usually designed around the rest of the car excluding bodywork. If you already have the placements given to you what can you change? Its like working on another person's project at that point. You have their suspension points, their engine placement, their driver position, and so on.

[Dr Tron]

I agree, from that aspect it would almost be harder to try to use another design that inst yours and it also makes alot of decisions for you. At the same time I think that a first year team trying to get its feet under them is completely different than an established team paying pros to design and make the frame.

Will it limit them? yes, but who knows what kind of team size and skill level they are working with. Maybe this year they purchase a second hand frame and get a car together and it ignites a program and inspires countless other engineers at Grand Valley. Its not the ideal direction to take but for some people its the best direction.

[AxelRipper]

I think if they purchase a frame to get a car together, that defeats a large portion of the competition. The only way I could see that benefiting the team is if they buy an old car to do driver training and engine and tire testing while their car is built, since they wouldn't have an old car to test on. If they purchased an old chassis and made it to comp and completed all the events, they feel happy, but I wouldn't expect them to do well the next year. Why? Because there are a LOT of things that you learn when you build a car that you can apply to the design of the next year's car that they wouldn't have learned.

Its not hard to build a chassis from scratch, even for a first year team with limited resources. Get a welder, some grinding wheels, a tube notcher, and a tube bender and 4 guys could knock one out in a weekend even if they didn't know what they were doing.

Get a suspension design, place your engine and driver, then attach the points per the rules. Worry about torsional rigidity and weight in your second year. You'll still be better off with a crappy chassis you built yourself rather than one you bought from someone else (plus you get the added bonus of "yes, I built that").

(On a side note, yes, Cartesian is great when it comes to accuracy and ease of manufacturing, but I feel that chassis built that way loses a certain character compared to one that has been hand-fit. And I'm not only talking the car, but the team members as well. Tube fitting is a good character building experience, just like safety wiring and drilling grade 8 bolts for safety wire.)

[Grand Valley]

Again thank you everyone for the tons of advice.

I do want to clarify to everyone that GV had/has no intentions of purchasing a chassis from another team and running it in any competitions, it was just a question based of of some advice we had received from another team. Like AxelRipper said we would be using it for testing and seeing how different components work and interact. All of the teams competing now have old designs in which they can perfect and learn from, we dont. We are extremely ambitious and are fully capable of designing and building this car, but we have tons of questions and are seeking as much advice as we can. we have a long road ahead of us and as i stated before we wont be competing until 2014.