Spectators

[Brian S]

Dear Team Members and Faculty,

Due to increased insurance requirements, for all 2008 competitions the Team Paddock areas will be restricted to registered participants (team members and faculty, volunteers & designated media) of the event only. This area joins the current restricted area of dynamic events and will be limited to all participants with wristbands only.

Spectators are welcome at all Collegiate Design Competitions, but will be limited to designated viewing areas only. All Spectators will be required to sign a liability waiver near the student registration area in order to be onsite.

Admission for most events is Free! However please note at some events due to location there may be a charge.

For any questions please contact collegiatecompetitions@sae.org or call 1-724-776-4841 for Education Relations.

Anyone else find this as dumb as we do? We (and I'm guessing almost every other team) spend most of our time at the competition in the paddock if the car isn't driving. They say spectators are welcome, but doing something like this will sure discourage parents/sponsors/friends for coming to check things out.

[flavorPacket]

This makes sense if SAE is trying to turn this into a motorsports competition. I thought it was an engineering competition.

Now alumni can't check out other teams' cars, parents can't come and see what their tuition dollars actually pay for, etc. This rule will significantly reduce the open feeling of competition.

[Biggy72]

What I don't understand is that there are hardly ever engines running in the paddocks, nobody drives their cars ever, Almost all of the welding takes place at the Lincoln truck, so what are they (they as in the insurance company) afraid of?

[screwdriver]

Originally posted by Biggy72:
... so what are they (they as in the insurance company) afraid of?

Spectators stealing stuff, injury from out-of control angle grinders or maybe an alien invasion perhaps.

I think this is ridiculous and I hope that it doesn't catch on.

[Composites Guy]

The draw of going to these competitions is walking through the paddocks and seeing all the cars, checking out the latest cool thing...

this sucks... as an alum we will be shut out

next thing you know they will cut the field to 43 cars (if you know what I mean)

[BenB]

I've been in racing for a long time and I've always seen rules like these, and I've always hated them. Insurance companies have absolutely no concept of what it is like at a race track. They think that people are racing their cars around the paddock areas. Its hard enough to get people interested in racing, but then when they are told they cannot look at the cars its pretty much their last time at the track.

SAE is different since it is an engineering competition, but who is going to go to an engineering competition if they cannot even see the engineer's work?

[Alastair Clarke]

This sounds a bit silly! I hope it doesn't catch on at Formula Student in the UK - one of the attractions for sponsors to visit us at the event is getting to wander around Silverstone paddock and pit lane!

Alastair

[exFSAE]

That really blows. First year out of college, I was REALLY looking forward to being able to head back, check out some friend's cars, my school's..

[Test Driver]

Dear Team Members and Faculty,

Due to increased insurance requirements, for all 2008 competitions the Team Paddock areas will be restricted to registered participants...................................... ...............................Admission for most events is Free! However please note at some events due to location there may be a charge.

Yup,

This effectively uninvites me.

Ramon

[Brian S]

Perhaps some of these comments, especially from sponsors and alumni, should also be sent to SAE...

[kuck]

My parents canceled flight plans and hotel reservations because of this dumb change.

Seriously, charge spectators 20 bucks or whatever is necessary to cover insurance costs. I don't think anybody would care if they had to pay a fee--it's better than not being able to go.

[PatClarke]

I think we must be fair. This decision is probably not the making of the SAE, but rather rules set down by the owners of the venue, and probably based totally on insurance issues.

This is another side effect of SAE being somewhat lost for a venue since leaving the Silver Dome. You never know what you have til you lose it.

I am sure the FSAE organisers fully understand the need to expose potential competitors, sponsors, family etc to the actual engineering event, and I would hate to see that feature of any FSAE/FS event end.

It is important though to have anyone involved let the organisers know their view of the situation so it can be avoided in the future. Meanwhile I sympathise with you.

Cheers and keep safe
Pat Clarke

[grams]

This is an SAE wide thing as the Baja competition now has the same rule.

[Mike Hart]

I really hope this doesn't catch on. It's sad that in the modern age when computers rather than people seem to work out insurance risk, there is now a distinct lack of brain engagement in these issues. As Pat says, I imagine that the organisers have done everything they could to try and avoid this, so they're not to blame. It's probably an issue with cost as opposed out and out 'no you can't do it' so perhaps there is a way round it.

Getting a list of names opposed together though can't do any harm!

[vreihen]

Stupid question, since I'm not familiar with the FSAE team composition rules. Does each team have to declare their roster before the event? Is there a limit on number of team members? Does everyone on the team need to be academically tied to their university in some way or another? Is SAE membership the issue?

I'm just trying to figure out what's stopping everyone from registering their guests as crew members on their team to get around this, and trying to figure out what the poor schlep who volunteered to tow some team's trailer to Detroit but isn't student/faculty is going to do once they get to the paddock gate.

As far as I know, the SCCA allows race teams to bring sponsors and guests to races as crew, and the only restrictions are for minors in the hot areas. I believe that SCCA membership is required for this, but there is (or at least used to be) a temporary free weekend membership form available as a gaping hole around this. If it's a membership issue, perhaps the SAE can work it out by offering temporary memberships for the duration of the competition for registered family, sponsors, and other support "crew" on a team?????

[mtg]

This is the dumbest rule I've ever heard of.

Luckily, I volunteer, so I'll still be allowed in. My parents definitely showed up to competition when I was in school to see why I never slept nor ever came home.

[Ian M]

Just another example of corporate America driving themselves out of competition with the rest of the world due to liability costs!
The line has to be drawn somewhere before safety costs drive America out of global competition and we found ourselves in a huge economic depression.
No new companies can afford to start up in America and some that were started in America are moving elsewhere because they cannot afford to carry the liability of their workers.

Sorry for the rant and rave, obviously, I think this rule is ridiculous.
Although it's not necessarily the fault of the organizers or the insurance companies...they are just knowledgeable enough to know that if anything would happen then they would be dealing with a costly lawsuit. Obviously, the idea of preventing this accident sounded good to a big wig at the insurance company, even though he has no knowledge of the FSAE event or the probability of anything happening in the paddock area, which is probably .001%.

OK, I am stopping now.

[Biggy72]

Any team member must be an sae member and be academically tied to the school within the last year. This way if anyone graduates in the December they can still go. The SAE membership is only $10, but the school part is what stops that sort of plan.

[Poe]

This really makes you wonder what that extra $400 worth of registration fees is paying for...

The support of parents and visitors helped our team tremendously, from assisting with errands to feeding and keeping all of our team members warm and dry at competition. Not having this ability will be a huge loss and a big pain for all teams.

[flavorPacket]

Clearly, everyone is upset. So, why not form a united front, and kindly flip SAE the bird?

My parents are coming, and I'd love to see the organizers try to stop them from seeing why they shell out $40k a year.

[Grant Mahler]

Originally posted by flavorPacket:
Clearly, everyone is upset. So, why not form a united front, and kindly flip SAE the bird?

My parents are coming, and I'd love to see the organizers try to stop them from seeing why they shell out $40k a year.

Has anyone actually asked Kaley why the change in rules? Specifically, what the insurance company was worried about?

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

Originally posted by Poe:
This really makes you wonder what that extra $400 worth of registration fees is paying for...

The support of parents and visitors helped our team tremendously, from assisting with errands to feeding and keeping all of our team members warm and dry at competition. Not having this ability will be a huge loss and a big pain for all teams.


This is what I was thinking. There is so much more to be learned in the pits then sitting on some bleachers 200' away from cars on the track.

Has anyone ever got hurt in the pits besides cutting themselves working with tools?

$400 was a huge jump and now they are cutting back on freedom...

[Maverik]

Good call on the additional $400.00 charge for registration, I was under the impression that it was for additional insurance and slightly higher fees. Let's do the math: $400.00 x 130 teams = $52,000. What on earth is that going towards? My parents/family/alumni were very much looking forward to this competition until this new rule came out. Turnout is going to be abysmal this season...

[exFSAE]

So who do we talk to about this? Email that collegiatecompetitions address? Might have to..

..there are of course other ways to get in.

[Mike Cook]

Originally posted by PatClarke:
I think we must be fair. This decision is probably not the making of the SAE, but rather rules set down by the owners of the venue, and probably based totally on insurance issues.

This is another side effect of SAE being somewhat lost for a venue since leaving the Silver Dome. You never know what you have til you lose it.
Pat Clarke

Pat, the policy is being mandated for all 2008 competitions which I assume to mean fontana and VIR as well. Because of this, I believe the issue must be more on the SAE side than the venue side. Also, attending VIR, half our team and any guests have to pay the $50 entrance fee and its a shame that this isn't enough to get them in our paddock.

I was looking forward to having our sponsors come out to what will hopefully be a 'local' competition for years to come, but it doesn't sound like it will be much worth it.

Mike

[ben]

Not being closely involved with FSAE in the US I wanted to wait a bit and see where the debate went before commenting.

On one level I can see the insurance point of view, but on the other hand if parents and sponsors can't come easily it totally defeats the object of the comp.

The news that the SAE have increased the entrance fee by $400 should have easily covered any insurance issues. The only conclusion seems to be they're doing it to make money - sad...

Ben

[PatClarke]

Pat, the policy is being mandated for all 2008 competitions
How sad!
Compare this to the dilemma the German organisers found themselves in.
Registration filled up in 5 minutes, so they re negotiated their deal with Hockenheim, the insurers, the caterers etc and increased the the entry numbers by 20%.
Guess why I (and Ben =]) go to Germany and give FSAE a miss?
Pat

[B Hise]

SAE must be hard pressed for revenue. Since SAE is nonprofit (from my quick Google research) it appears as if the decision isn't to cover insurance costs as much as it is to increase net profit from the competition or cover other costs.

It's very unfortunate for everyone involved, I would love to go see my team compete and walk the paddock but I'm not paying $50 to watch design from bleachers with a set of binoculars. Hopefully the SAE changes their mind but I don't think its likely. Maybe if everyone boycotted comp or someone came up with a competing event...

Otherwise we're all at the mercy of the sanctioning body.

[vreihen]

Maybe if everyone boycotted comp or someone came up with a competing event...

Rumor has it that there's a *huge* event held by another sanctioning body in Kansas every September. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Last year, 14 FSAE drivers showed up, and UTA left with the top four trophies. Granted, it's not exactly the perfect time of year on the academic calendar (and doesn't have an endurance event), but there is an alternative venue that welcomes FSAE teams to come out and play.....

[ben]

Originally posted by B Hise:
... it appears as if the decision isn't to cover insurance costs as much as it is to increase net profit from the competition or cover other costs.


My conclusion also. The SAE need to be careful on this one. The German event doesn't require them at all and if they keep pulling this sort of crap more often I suspect a US alternative will appear.

Certain members of the SAE committee definitely need a reality check as to what the purpose of the comp is.

Pat - sadly looks like I can't make any of the comps this year. Hopefully my tyres will be there though :-)

Ben

[Cory M]

This really is a shame. I'm an FSAE alumni and I work for a company that sponsors a team (and has for years). I am also involved in the new grad & intern recruitment. I have been planning on approaching the Director of Engineering with the idea of having a booth to share info about our company and collect resumes at this years FSAE West event. If I can't walk around and see the cars up close and talk to the team members in the paddock what's the point? This is an engineering competition, not a race, the on track activities are very boring and are actually a small portion of the FSAE experience - we want to see the cars and the teams that built them.

This has to be an SAE decision because I race a few times a year at Cal Speedway with the Porsche Owners Club and The Porsche Club of America and the paddock is always open to spectators at our events (I believe there is a $10 gate fee). Our events are real races with a lot more cars on and off track, the potential for injury is magnatudes higher than FSAE.

This is very disapointing. What a waste.

[Cory M]

Maybe in the future teams can just email a Powerpoint presentation of their car build into SAE http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Conor]

I know it wouldn't be anything comparable to year's past, but I hope they atleast establish a designated viewing area outside of the paddock. Even if people have to view the cars in the pits from 5 feet and behind a fence, the spirit of the entire competition will still remain intact.

[ScottW]

I don't know if there is anything we can do about this but it certainly is a nice slap in the face to all SAE supporters.

[exFSAE]

Well screw em. I'm goin anyway. Should not be difficult to get in.

[Tech Guy]

Guys,
Yup, almost guaranteed to be an insurance issue. Apparently it applies to both Baja and Formula.

You can bet there has already been some reaction from within the "organization", and I think we can expect some revisions from SAE in the very near future. Stay tuned.

By the way, if you think that SAE makes a profit from the FSAE events and that your entry fees cover the cost of putting on the events, think again! I can almost guarantee your registration fees only cover a fraction of the costs!

As far as the registration fees are concerned, what are the US events, $1000? Have you checked out the fees at the others?
Formula Student (UK) – 1175 Pounds (with VAT) = $2300
FSAE-Italy (2007) - 120 Euros = $1750
FSAE-Australasia (2007) – 1500 Aus dollars = $1300

Only FS Germany is fractionally "cheaper"� at 500 Euros (about $750).

[Kirk Feldkamp]

I have a hard time believing that.

Ok, so registration at West is what, $1000? So that's $82k. To rent the whole of California Speedway, with all the corner workers and such is close to 20K I think for a normal weekend. Since FSAE only uses the paddock and the infield, I'm guessing for the 4 days (with only three 'dynamic days') it's still probably about 20K for the weekend. Since the almost the entire event is staffed by volunteers, with a few paid SAE head-honchos thrown in, the other costs I can see are added insurance, fuel, and some printed materials and administrative hardware. If each team used 3 gallons over the entire event (which we all know very unlikely), at $5/gallon the entire field's fuel cost is $1050.

Insurance is a grey number especially since most of the on track insurance is dependent on potential hazards to the drivers, volunteers, and spectators. With the essentially stellar track record that FSAE has over the last ~27 years, I'm guessing there is a fairly minimal cost of insurance for each event. Although I'm not sure, I'm guessing SAE has a blanket policy that covers ALL the SAE events in the US. This probably nets a lower insurance cost all around. My guess for the FSAE West event is somewhere on the order of $15k for insurance.

My understanding is the local SCCA chapter covers most, if not all of the timing and track creation supplies.

Other supplies and incidental costs (travel, food, etc.) that I may have missed can probably amount to a generous estimate of maybe $5k more.

So doing the math:
+82k FEES
-20k TRACK
-15k INSURANCE
-1k PRINTING SUPPLIES
-1k FUEL
-5k MISC
-------------------------
$40K left over after FSAE West

Now there's other additional money coming in from the OE's and OE Tier suppliers that pay for advertising space in the programs and probably pay to have people in the 'recruiting' area at the competition. Furthermore, I think there is probably a very slick deal for FSAE in Michigan since the OE's are fighting tooth and nail for fresh engineers from the competitions. You can do the math for FSAE in Detroit! 121 cars at $1000 a pop!

All things considered, I think SAE is doing just fine financially with its FSAE enterprise. Don't forget SAE is a membership organization... with the intent to both educate and provide a path to communicate with engineers. Everyone that competes in FSAE has to be an SAE member (at least they did when I was involved). There are a LOT of kids worldwide that fork over $10 a year just to be innundated with a gazillion mail pieces. I bet reducing or eliminating those damn mailers alone could drop the cost of membership or of student competitions a huge amount. Email anyone?

If anyone from SAE or anyone that's been involved with actual FSAE-event budgets wants to chime in, I'd be interested to hear what kind of numbers get tossed around for an event like this.

-Kirk

[Mike Sadie]

If anyone from SAE or anyone that's been involved with actual FSAE-event budgets wants to chime in, I'd be interested to hear what kind of numbers get tossed around for an event like this.

That, I don't see ever happening. Until another competition arises, be prepared to pay what they want or give your spot to the many teams that will.

If insurance is the reason for not allowing spectators/sponsors in the pits, why not sell pit passes to cover that premium?

[BryanH]

First event I attended was FSAE-A 03 and Mitsubshi in their wisdom organized security to the same level as FIA F1 - I was reduced to behaving like a criminal to even get a brief peek at other teams on site, and the less adventurous spectators (99%) didn't get closer than 20 metres to the pit tents. For an event based mainly on innovation this was a very sad state of affairs as the organizers never know who may turn up to see what the current crop of students are up to...But I do, and an influental Adelaide CEO was very unimpressed.

This attitude was a one-off as subsequent events have been very spectator friendly.

p.s. You won't sway the "organizers", anything to segregate them from the great unwashed will only be seen as a good thing to them.

[Composites Guy]

I hate to say this as I'm a pro-America, big-three auto supporter, but mabey its time for Honda, Toyota, Misubishi, Suzuki, Yamaha and the rest to step up their presence in the FSAE arena... mabey run a more 'open' competition and bring back the fun of interesting engineering and innovation. The gentleman representing Honda at West last year told me they were all but told to take a hike at Detroit.

[exFSAE]

Originally posted by Composites Guy:
I hate to say this as I'm a pro-America, big-three auto supporter, but mabey its time for Honda, Toyota, Misubishi, Suzuki, Yamaha and the rest to step up their presence in the FSAE arena... mabey run a more 'open' competition and bring back the fun of interesting engineering and innovation. The gentleman representing Honda at West last year told me they were all but told to take a hike at Detroit.

Could you elaborate on this? I've always seen Honda guys at Detroit.. and don't they do the whole engine giveaway thing?

Not sure how much more "open" you'd make the competition either. Just about anything goes as it is.. lot more open than any race series I can think of.

[vreihen]

To rent the whole of California Speedway,
with all the corner workers and such is close to 20K I think for a normal weekend.

With an up front declaration that I sit on the board of directors for an SCCA region and have access to the real numbers involved with putting a track event on, I'm going to throw in my $0.02. Track rental is generally 40% of the total cost, so figure $50K based on your track rental figure. (Lime Rock Park in Connecticut charges more than that figure per DAY for weekend SCCA events...plus ambulances, tow trucks, security, etc on top of that. Events at Lime Rock are exceptions to the general 40% rule of thumb.) Since your event is preventing the facility management from renting the actual track to anyone else, the track rental cost is most likely the same as a regular racing weekend. It doesn't matter that you're only using the paddock and infield space.

Here's a piece of trivia for you. Can you tell me what the largest line item expense is for every car that General Motors builds? The engine? Chassis? Electronics? Nope. It's payment of the pensions for retired GM employees!!! Completely out of the realm of vehicle engineers to trim that cost from the price per unit. (I have never confirmed this for accuracy, but heard it from a long-time GM employee.)

Before you go any further convincing yourself that FSAE is a cash cow, I suggest that you find yourself a business/accounting major and ask them to explain the costs of program administration on the annual balance sheet. How many people do you think that SAE has on their payroll just to manage FSAE rules, event setup, and answer day-to-day questions from everyone's teams? How much would you expect to get paid if that was your job? Two full-time employees at SAE more than accounts for the "huge windfall" you're figuring above. If you count money from the Detroit competition, I bet that they can only have 5 full-time employees on staff to manage FSAE before going into the red.

I'm not even going to bring up travel expenses for judges and event officials, since I seem to recall Pat Clarke saying that SAE didn't cover them. Hopefully, part of the entry fee increase is going towards correcting this, since I think it's totally disgusting if it is indeed true.....

[SAE_intl_girl]

Dear Team Members and Faculty,

In response to your constructive feedback, the staff of SAE Collegiate Design Series had a meeting to revisit the issue of Team Paddock admittance. In order to comply with the insurance requirements, the area will remain "Restricted"� and monitored. Access to the team paddocks is restricted to those who are "Registered Attendees"�. A "registered attendee"� is anyone 18 years of age or older, has signed the liability waiver and has been issued a wristband from the registration area.

Spectators are welcome at all Collegiate Design competitions. Admission is free for all events with the exception of Formula SAE at Virginia International Raceway. A $45 entrance fee is required due to the Bosch Engineering 250 running simultaneously with the Formula SAE event. This ticket entitles attendee access to all Bosch Engineering 250 events.

For any questions please contact collegiatecompetitions@sae.org or call 1-724-776-4841 for Education Relations.
Or, if you wish, continue to insult us on fsae.com http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Sincerely,
SAE Collegiate Design Series Staff

[Poe]

A "registered attendee"� is anyone 18 years of age or older, has signed the liability waiver and has been issued a wristband from the registration area.
Ah, the key definition that had been missing (or misunderstood) from the original wording. From that sentence, parents and other spectators are able to get into the paddock area as long as they are 18 or older, have signed in and have a wristband, correct? That is much more reasonable than what I think most of us here presumed for the definition of "registered attendees."

Thank you for the clarification.

[McMasteRacer]

i may be incorrect, but i have been to the last 2 Michigan events and this is how i saw it.

in order to get a wristband you must be registered with the team, which also means that you must be a sae member.

so alumni and parents are still not allowed

[Kirk Feldkamp]

Originally posted by McMasteRacer:
in order to get a wristband you must be registered with the team, which also means that you must be a sae member.

so alumni and parents are still not allowed

Nope, she's saying it hasn't changed from last year. It's a wording issue that we all got tripped up on. "Registered" apparently means someone has signed the waiver and got a wristband by doing that. (Maybe that's not what you're saying SAE_intl_girl (Kaley?)... is that correct?) Every motorsports event I've ever been to that isn't some huge pro race requires this, and isn't an unreasonable thing at all.

-Kirk

[Biggy72]

It says nothing in there about needing to be registered with the team, or an SAE member. It just says you need to sign in, sign a liability waiver, and wear a wrist band. I thought this was how it had been in the past though, so maybe the only change is that they will just monitor it closer?

[Kirk Feldkamp]

So now I'm totally confused. The original post said this (which seems very official, and is signed in the same manner as SAE_intl_girl did):


Dear Team Members and Faculty,

Due to increased insurance requirements, for all 2008 competitions the Team Paddock areas will be restricted to registered participants (team members and faculty, volunteers & designated media) of the event only. This area joins the current restricted area of dynamic events and will be limited to all participants with wristbands only.

Spectators are welcome at all Collegiate Design Competitions, but will be limited to designated viewing areas only. All Spectators will be required to sign a liability waiver near the student registration area in order to be onsite.

Admission for most events is Free! However please note at some events due to location there may be a charge.

For any questions please contact collegiatecompetitions@sae.org or call 1-724-776-4841 for Education Relations.

...BUT, then SAE_intl_girl said:


In response to your constructive feedback, the staff of SAE Collegiate Design Series had a meeting to revisit the issue of Team Paddock admittance. In order to comply with the insurance requirements, the area will remain "Restricted"� and monitored. Access to the team paddocks is restricted to those who are "Registered Attendees"�. A "registered attendee"� is anyone 18 years of age or older, has signed the liability waiver and has been issued a wristband from the registration area.

The first one sounds rediculous, the second one sounds like it should be. Either way, the two statements contradict themselves, and it's unclear whether the second statement somehow replaces the first statement. I think the word "remain" in the second statement is throwing me off. Also, does everyone that has signed the liability waiver get issued the proper wristband that "gets them in the pits"? I'm just looking for a clear answer to whether or not I'm going to get shafted if I take a couple days off work to go to West(and then don't get to look at cars up close in the pit area).

-Kirk

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

Instead of all the "buzz words" they should just state that ANYONE that is 18 and signs a waver can be admitted into the area. That includes, students, parents, and spectators whether they have no affiliation to a school or not.

Its still unclear to me.

[vreihen]

Originally posted by drivetrainUW-Platt:
Instead of all the "buzz words" they should just state that ANYONE that is 18 and signs a waver can be admitted into the area. That includes, students, parents, and spectators whether they have no affiliation to a school or not.

Its still unclear to me.

"For any questions please contact collegiatecompetitions@sae.org or call 1-724-776-4841 for Education Relations."

Couldn't be any clearer to me!!!!! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[exFSAE]

Guys.. so I actually emailed em..


So basically what I'm asking.. I'm 23 so I meet the age requirement. I can drive up to the MIS event, probably hitch a ride in with my old team to the registration tent.. register on the spot with my SAE number and signing a liability waiver, get a wristband and go on in through the paddock and outside the dynamic area? Just like any other registered team member without a dynamic pass could?

Answer - Yes, you are correct. You are now able to register, sign the waiver and access the paddocks without having to pre-register.

Should settle it.. don't need to be team or faculty or media.. you just cruise up and you're good. Like in previous years.

[John Grego]

register on the spot with my SAE number

What about those who aren't SAE members?

[Mike Sadie]

It doesn't matter if a spectator is not a member of SAE. However, you must be registered with SAE and your team on SAE.org to be allowed to work on your car.