2008 Formula SAE Registration

[SAE_intl_girl]

This is a reminder about registration for the 2008 Formula SAE competitions

Dates and Registration Limits – Next year's Formula SAE competition schedule is:

2008 Formula SAE at VIR, Virginia International Raceway, Alton, VA – Wednesday, April 23 through Saturday, April, 26, 2008 – Limited to 50 teams

2008 Formula SAE, Michigan International Speedway, Brooklyn, MI – Wednesday, May 14 through Saturday, May, 17, 2008 – Limited to 120 teams

2008 Formula SAE West, California Speedway, Fontana, CA – Wednesday, June 18 through Saturday, June 21, 2008 – Limited to 80 teams

Multiple Event Registration – During the first month of the registration period teams may register for either Formula SAE or Formula SAE West – but not both. Additionally teams may simultaneously register for FSAE at VIR. Specifically, registering your team for both FSAE at VIR and either FSAE or FSAE West will be permitted during the first month of registration. After the first month of registration teams may register for any competition at which space is available.

Registration Fee - The registration fee for each competition will be $1,000. Registration must be completed on-line and the fee paid by credit card.

Registration Opens - Registration opens at 10:00 am EDT, Monday, October 1, 2007.

Affiliation for Registration - The student or faculty advisor who registers the team must be affiliated with the registering school in SAE's records. Students registering their teams must be members of SAE International. When getting ready for online registration, make sure you have a valid credit card with the balance needed. All credit cards that are declined will be notified and registrations will be cancelled.

More details on the registration procedures and policies are contained in the FSAE Rules.

As always if you have any questions, contact SAE staff at collegiatecompetitions@sae.org or contact Kaley directly at shellham@sae.org

[chavez]

$1,000 when did this change?

[Drew Price]

This year, it was discussed at Driver's meetings at West. Increasing cost of hosting and holding the competitions I believe, was what Mr. Royce told us.

Best,
Drew

[Michael Royce]

T'was not me talking about the registration fee at West. Not my department!

[SAE_intl_girl]

Actually it would have been Steve Daum, Formula SAE Program Manager who made the comments about the rise in registration fees. He would have made this statement several times during the events: driver meeting, faculty reception and most definitely at the awards cermony

[kmrobinson]

Wow Virginia is going to be tough to make! Usually we're crunched to make Detroit...

[Drew Price]

Thousand appologies Mr. Royce! And no offense Mr. Daum! It has all become clear to me now!

Best,
Drew

[TG]

Hmmmm, Phoenix International Raceway has said they'd be more than happy donating the facilities and other things to host an event... a deal like that would cut down on the costs of having an event.

[Korey Morris]

I didn't find the rest of the deadlines or the "Action Deadlines" Appendix. I guess it may be a little early, but I'm taking a shot at this organization thing this year...

Is that something that is a while down the pipe, or am I just missing it?

[SAE_intl_girl]

The Action Deadlines will be posted within the next week as judges are still deciding on the dates.

[scott_rfr]

So does any one else have final exams end of the first day of comp like Rutgers?
Scott

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

Why the need to almost double the reg fee? Not like we aren't already scraping for money to build a car, buy tools, travel to competition etc...

I am assuming one of the big sponsors backed out?

[rjwoods77]

I imagine the cost has more to do with disuading wanna be teams from joining since the numbers and demands on SAE are already so high. Imagine if nascars only cost 50k to build instead of what it is now. You would be swarmed with doctors money trying to have fun. You have to pay to play. There is always mini baja, which is more fun anyway.

[Poe]

There is always mini baja, which is more fun anyway.
for which the registration fees also increased this year...

Also racing doesn't cost a lot of money simply to keep those without the cash from getting involved. That's absurd.

[mtg]

Originally posted by Rob Woods:
There is always mini baja, which is more fun anyway.

That's a bold statement, considering that you never showed up with your car to compete at an FSAE event.

[rjwoods77]

Poe,

Baja was also swarmed with teams like FSAE but waaayyyy worse. I dont think my statement is really that far off as part of the reasons. Your comment about racing and money is laughable. Real racing is about money and a race series doesnt want underfunded teams that perform badly aka not finish to make their series look less appealing to the sources of income for that series. Rules, costs, prestige are all part of the game. Concord agreement for example? How many small nextel/winston teams folded out because of not bringing in money? I could go on and on.

Mtg,

At least we showed up to watch and learn. The car wasnt ready and they team was way too inexperienced to build a new car for next year. The decision we made was a smart one and there were about 30-40 cars that should have done the same but to each his own. If your implying I am a wanna be I have pics of the car 95 percent finished with a running albiet untuned engine. I do however feel bad that twice we took possible spots another teams could of had but 1000 a comp will make you think twice if you are really ready for it. It will go up as well as costs go up and the comp becomes even more coveted than in previous years. There are only so many spots and volunteers. As much as I think formula is more worthwile baja is simply more fun after to going to two comps. There is much more laughter and cheering from the crowd at a baja event versus the stoneface crowds at formula sae events that only cheer when they hear a good time posted. Mini baja folks are maniacs at events. Watching a car launch through the air and make it is more more interesting than waiting to hear an announcer or for someones engine to blow up. By the way, GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MANITOBA. I was yelling for you the last 6 laps when you engine was puking steam/smoke. Nice finish.

[Conor]

I strongly disagree with your feelings about racing and money. Sure that's the way it might be in Nascar or F1, but people also make a LIVING and PAY THEIR BILLS through those industries. This is a collegiate event for non-profit racing teams. As I've said before, the thrill of driving and racing shouldn't be reserved for people with deep pockets. And just as well, the pursuit of knowledge and willingness to learn shouldn't be reserved for teams with bloated pocket books and $300 matching team jackets. Rob stated that the new entry fee would make teams think twice about entering. Honestly, I feel that's an utter shame for two reasons. The first being that a lot of teams aren't Big Ten schools with huge alumni rosters. A lot of teams can't even dream of getting a major sponsorship from the Big Three because their college isn't listed in the Princeton Review. But does that make them any less worthy of learning and gaining the experience that the teams who do compete get? Second, a lot of teams learn a ton just from TRYING to make it to competition, our team being one of them. Now that the penatly for trying is so great, a lot of teams can't even begin to TRY. I'm sure there's probably some good explanation for the entry fee increase, but that doesn't justify that, no matter what excuses are made, the teams that struggle every year with a glimmer of hope are being systematically eliminated. There goes your Cinderella story...

[rjwoods77]

Conor,

Across the board fee increase of all baja and formula events. That would mean each venue was needing more money but the attendance limit wasnt increased. I doubt every venue said more money at the rate the increase happened. 140 teams at 500 a pop is 70k. 140 at 1000 a pop is 140k. 70k difference per event. Same sitaution but differnet money with baja. Overall I bet this increase is netting SAE about an extra 300k a year. Holly shit!!! The point is that is a ton of money coming in. There can be all sorts of operational costs and sponsorship things going on but I dont think that is the main cause. I just think that it has less to do with costs and more to do with the series has finally gotten so big that it can pay for more of its operating costs and the organizers are taking advantage of that fact. Good for them because they put just as much work into the series as some of us do with our cars. I dont like the price increase but I dont get mad about it whatsoever. As FSAE continues to grow and its prestige continue to grow you will start to see teams that arent setup for this project, like my school, will search other venues. That discussion of UB SAE doing just one project a year because of strained resources is a hot topic. All formula, all baja or an every other year thing which defintely wont work. Thing is our baja team has been in the top 20 for the last 6 years in every race because the cost of doing buisness is less and it hasnt stopped any of those guys from landing good paying jobs in industry. UB FSAE started with 6 grand this year and the rest was raised by me through sponsorships. 500 to 1000 is a big deal for the team. But its getting to that point with increased international involvement, increased technical savvy, etc that the series will evolve to where the teams are bringing it. The car we built was supposed to be the answer to that but we will have to see next competition. Unfortunately some will fall by the wayside as they have done over the last ten years. FSAE isnt Cinderalla. FSAE is career development. If you want that then pay the extra money to go to a college that has a solid program. Teams struggling is part of the deal. You have to weigh your struggle with your results. Struggle less and learn more in another series or struggle more and learn less in FSAE. There is a reason for second and third teir sports. Some people just arent equipped to play with the big boys. Welcome to the real world and not the FSAE world.

[Chris Allbee]

Rob....your complete and total stupidity astounds me. Your entire response mainly consisted of "if you are stupid and have money do FSAE, but you won't learn as much." That is by far one of the more ignorant, narrow-minded, and outright incorrect comments you have made on these boards (and there is a lot to choose from). YOU may VIEW FSAE as career development and there is a certain bit of that in there, but the honest truth is that it is an engineering competition. The focus is on learning and always has been. NOT on how much money you spend. The fact that you even attempt to draw a parallel with how much a school's team spends on the program and the amount a team member gets paid after school is laughable. I can see where the need for more money on the organizer's part comes in, especially since these competitions are having to be held at international speedways just to have proper accomodations and decent facilities. Yes it costs money, but that is a by-product of the series success, not the sole purpose of the series. The extra cost may mean that some schools will have to commit to a 2 year design cycle (pay for the car one year, the comp the next), but it doesn't mean they should give up. As far as not being "equipped to play with the big boys", our school arguably had its best showing this year and it wasn't our best funded year by a long shot.

In short, go away with your bullshit. Just because you haven't been able to make it to competition doesn't mean others should stop trying.

[Conor]

Rob,

I can agree that an entrance fee increase may be in order to help offset the cost of the event, but we're talking a magnitude of 40%. A little warning or a staggered increase would have been far more friendly to every team. You also said "welcome to the real world, not the FSAE world". I'm not too sure what you meant by that. Comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges. In the real world companies compete for profits. In the FSAE world teams compete for trophies. You speak about not being able to play with the big boys. How do you think the world would react if Ethiopia got kicked out of the Olympics because they are one of the poorest countries on the planet? The competition is about talent, perserverance, and team work, not just pocket book size. Look how Cedarville faired a few years ago as a "nobody". I'm sure they weren't operating on a big budget. And look how Cornell faltered the last couple years with probably one of the wealthiest programs. As with any competition, FSAE is based on effort and talent. I've lived in the real world long enough to know that true competition is based upon a field of all sorts of worthy aversaries. Claiming a trophy when the cards are stacked in your favor is an illusion and a fantasy.

[Biggy72]

So you think 6 grand isn't enough to start a year on? We also started with 6 grand, then a few people, alumni letters, and any other begging and pleading I could come up with helped fund most of the rest of the year. It was only our second car, and we were able to build a car in well less than a year (running April 28th). We don't have any major sponsors, we don't have access to any machining facilities besides a manual mill and a manual lathe. While I don't necessarily agree with the price hike of the extra 400, we will deal with it.

We had problems at competition, but it wasn't for lack of testing. Our car was running really well up until about a week before we left and then things started going wrong. We thought we had the problems fixed, but more problems still arose in California. We lived and learned and we will be back again this year once again on a tight budget with most of our travel most likely paid for by the people going to comp.

I've looked at our old baja cars. How any of the guys that built those things got jobs is a scarry thought.

[rjwoods77]

Chris,

I didnt say anything like that. My point is if you dont have enough to make a good effort of it then try your hand at an competition that takes much less money do to but has the same amount of learning potential which the baja series is. The only point I was making about earning potential is that if you dont do formula and do another design series it isnt going to mean you going to be viewed as having any less of an experience. I went to a seminar and basically that is what Royce said to all of us. Be realistic with your goals and organize yourselfs as best you can arond those goals. You read into what I said as "if you are stupid and have money do FSAE, but you won't learn as much." when I didnt imply that in any way. You should try reading what I said instead of brushing through it and pouncing because I offended some sensibility you have. Do me a favor and read it again.

Oh. Career development and learning are the same thing. You are in school learning to get a career arent you? Really need to calm down.

[Poe]

How many small nextel/winston teams folded out because of not bringing in money?
How many single car teams do you see trying to make the show each week? At least one every week, sometimes more. So they can't afford to run up front with the heavy spenders, they can still show up and try to make the show. No one has forced them out by a rule that says they have to spend a specified minimum amount of money. Nascar doesn't care how much you spend, and in fact seem to always do things that attempt to save teams money to make it more friendly to these single car, upstart teams to make and compete in a race, a la the COT.

If the higher entry fees to SAE's engineering competitions allows for better and more convenient facilities, so be it. But I stand by my earlier statement that your suggestion that the increase is to weed out lesser funded teams is absurd. Will the increase result in some teams thinking twice about registering? Probably so, but it's ridiculous to think that was the intent when SAE increased the fees.

[rjwoods77]

Conor,

My comment was most people dont/cant gear up in the real world if they cant make a decent shot at it. Finances and reality take the priority over emotions. Thats all. Be realistic. There are plenty of atheletes that dont make it to the olympics because of finanial troubles. Thats why little countries send a couple people because there are entrance fees along with operating fees in the olympics so I wouldnt think of the olympics as some bastion of rightousness and purity or competition. For shit sake we sent an NBA dream team to compete for medals.

Biggy,

I did the same thing. I got so many sponsors we ran out of room on the car. Old baja is scary but the last couple of years have produced some fantastic cars. All that I do know is it costs between 5-10k to make a super competitive baja. If you go by the traditional formula for a fsae car you are looking at 10-20k when it is all said and done to be competitive. If you arent doing something drastically different than everyone else then anything less, on average, you wont climb the ladder. Tires,rims,shocks and entrance fee put you at 6k alone. That is to be competitive. So even on a two year cycle with 6k a year you are still pushing it. 12k total in baja will get you a car and two comps depending on where you live.

[rjwoods77]

Poe,

Youll always have someone with disposable income looking to live the dream. But if they backed off to a lower series (4 cylinder) or even dirt then they could do more with their money. Maybe get more racing in a year. By competing once in a while is pretty much forcing out in my mind. It may not be the intent but that will definitely be the effrct. This is not lost on the organizers and I dont think it would bother them a bit because of how much demand for the series and their own personal time is on hand. They have to look after the long range on this comp and with the resources they have it doesnt include trying to get everyone college that has a dream to the reality they so desire. I wouldnt view this as malicious. They have an organization to run. INDY 500 used to do it with qualifying but now they are grabbing anyone they can because it just isnt in demand anymore. Every year something like 20-30 cars wouldnt make the grid because they got outspent.

[Conor]

I guess I came across a little strong when making my point. I think nicer facilities and everything are great, but I guess you have to ask at what cost are they worth it? Quite honestly, I'd rather have a smaller entry fee and less facilities to be able to compete shoulder to shoulder with all different types of hardworking people from teams all over the world rather than have a larger entry fee and a limited field. I'm not saying that a larger entry fee will keep people out, not at all. I will say that the larger fee will deter some.

[rjwoods77]

Conor,

There is alot of things I wish FSAE was but the after 2.5 years of building this car I have come to face certain realities about things.

[Poe]

But if they backed off to a lower series (4 cylinder) or even dirt then they could do more with their money. Maybe get more racing in a year.
To the ones who attempt to make the cup events, it isn't about how frequently they race, it's about making it into a cup race (they could race latemodels for a long time with what they spend trying to make a cup race). Sure they aren't competitive, but they aren't turned away at the gates.

I seriously doubt that the FSAE event will have less than 140 teams registered, even with the price increase. If the organizers were trying to turn people away, they would have reduced the entry cap, right?

[VFR750R]

Do you know how many teams show up to the Daytona 500 to get into the race every year? About 60 (only 43 start the race), way more then any other race. You know why, it pays 220,000 to start. That's right, you take the green flag and then pull in the garage, go to the nascar hauler and get your fat check. Any professional racing series is about money. FSAE is not...at least directly.

We run FSAE much like a professional team, and the payout isn't in money directly but publicity, which creates jobs and future sponsorship. I'll agree with all that, but FSAE raising costs is nothing but them covering their costs. Most workers are volunteers, but facilities aren't free, ambulances aren't free, organization for the event isn't free. Think about this, if one person, just one, handled all the paperwork for FSAE, registrations, design reports, cost reports, ect for the year, for the US events which now total three a year, you'd pay them 50k alone which usually costs the employeer 2x salary or 100,000. There's the real world for you. Shit costs money. People cost money.

Now think about this, the average team has 15+ people. That's $66 a person. You get to come to the event for 4 days straight for $66. And before you tell me "my team only has 8 people" we'll if teams were asked to pay based on team members, every team would have 3 drivers and that's it. Cheaters. Now, if I want to go to Pocono Raceway with my motorcycle for a track DAY, it costs $140...for just me. I'd be glad to pay the 66 bucks.

I agree with your attitude Rob W. If you don't want to go balls deep, get off the dodgeball court. How unreasonable would it be for a team to have dues. Our team doesn't, but I know fraternities do. You might have to pay 1000 a year to be part of a fraternity. What does that get you, help on your homework and some networking paths. If you get 20 kids to do it, you got $20,000 which is a hell of an FSAE budget. Add some sponsorship and all of a sudden your a top ten spender in FSAE, and then you'd have no excuses not to win every year.

And before kids spout off about 1000 being ridiculous, how much do you pay to go to college for 4 years in the first place, and without an activity or a 4.0 GPA isn't worth shit.

[Pete M]

This year Aus is $1500 australian. We sorta looked at that, went "Gee, that's a lot more than last year", and paid it. It blew out the budget a bit, but we aren't going to bitch about it. I don't believe SAE is in the business of ripping us off, so i'm assuming they had valid reasons for the increase. Although it would have been nice to know about it from the start of the year so it could have been budgeted for.

Even $100 a person on a medium sized team is still cheap imho. I spent more at last year's after party. We paid for registration out of the team budget, but a typical Aus comp costs nearly $500 each for us once accommodation, transport (1000 km) and merchandise is factored in. None of that is covered by team money. Fun is expensive, deal with it.

[Chris Allbee]

Rob,

You have had to defend your post several times already, so I don't think it was just my sensibilities you offended. Your comments were insulting to a very wide group of people. People who like to dream big and try to obtain things through hard work and determination. People willing to work for what they have and not necessarily accept the easy way out. If someone wants to play with the big dogs on a smaller budget who's to say they don't have the right to try?

To address with your concerns of my "scanning" of your post...

"Struggle less and learn more in another series or struggle more and learn less in FSAE. There is a reason for second and third teir sports. Some people just arent equipped to play with the big boys. Welcome to the real world and not the FSAE world."

How did I not interpret this correctly? You have not succeeded in bringing your car to competition these last few years, whereas others, on an equally restrictive budget, have made it. They succeeded where you have failed. Don't discount their experiences just because you couldn't obtain what they did. I doubt that any one of those people would agree that they would have learned more if it had just been an easier time about it.

And in general, I know we are all supposed to be engineers here with cold intellectual minds who feel nothing, but welcome to the real world. Engineers are people and people have emotions. Perhaps you should consider that. As much as you would like to think that engineering is about numbers and technology, it is just as much about people. You need to be able to work with others and around others emotions as well as your own when the time calls for it. However, if you let all the passion drain out then you have no reason to continue when the going gets tough, as you have indicated.

Quit if you want to, but I would never tell someone to completely give up on a goal because of the lack of cash...unless you have exhausted EVERY SINGLE RESOURCE...BFQ.

[rjwoods77]

Chris,

I speak from three baja cars and one formula so I think I have some guap behind what I say. Your point brings up another thing that is fucked up that I am sure most teams dont talk about or care about. "Every single resource" is crap. What that really means is "lie to every sponsor about our abilities and preparedness to represent them as best as possible in order to meet MY needs." One thing that really gets my goat is I raised huge amounts of cash and in kind donations in the order of 10-15k worth. I had to work with a team that was new and didnt care what we had to do in order to keep pushing such as you speak. When we failed I had to make about 30 very uncomfortable phone calls and visits to tell them why we didnt get it done in time. I went to comp to apologize to the design judges I knew from over the years that really wanted us to get our unique car there. Also to watch Dearborn (yeahhhhhhh go Dearbornnnnnn,21st in autocross with a sit-in Honda Rancher/Foreman) I felt worse doing this than not finishing the car. These people went out of their way, moved their own production work, their own dollars, their own time to help a bunch of college students that they shouldnt have helped in the first place now that I think back on it. We used these people. We had good intentions but intentions are bullshit. In the end I overstated our potential to finish with time to test and I can say i will never get involved again with an organization that treats other peoples money and resources and/or the competition as something that time and energy will solve. I gave up more than anyone should for this competition that I love. But once again reflecting on it I shouldnt have stepped up with all I had to work against. Especially at the expense of hard working buisness people. You speak from emotion and not logic. That is real scary.

[VFR750R]

Again, don't assume your circumstances must be shared by other teams; changing registration requirements is not an FSAE problem, it's your problem.
Your self righteousness regarding sponsors time and money is commendable but crying about it here is superfluous.

[Chris Allbee]

Rob,

I truly feel sorry for you, but you lied to the sponsors...We approach the sponsors from the angle that this is an educational experience and their single greatest benefit is the warm fuzzy feeling of giving back (again, that emotional crap!) and being able to write the services and donations off on their taxes (a little logic tossed in). We make no promise about this bringing in extra revenue to them, we are not a professional team out to make a profit and swap out three different ballcaps giving the after race interview. If your team was new and "didn't care" it was most likely a failure on your part as a leader to not be able to keep their interest and passions for the program high enough to get the job done (more scary emotional stuff here). You tried your hardest, but it seems that you may have neglected something very important, that your team was a group of human beings, not tools to do your bidding. I do not speak without logic, just not without emotion. You are describing complete and utter failure...and i refuse to believe that there aren't at least a handfull of people at any given university that wouldn't be psyched about building an FSAE car. Maybe you should look closer to home as to your team's failure...

[rjwoods77]

I sold the warm fuzzy and told them their was no real value to them doing it but my point was when you are stretched thin and you do come through it is letting them down which ever way you put it. Superfluous yes. Point being unless you are really ready dont go dragging people through it if it isnt going to come through. My hindsight opinion. Our guys and myself had plenty of late nights and sacrificing but all but 2 others were new. I wasnt a leader. Just got money designed and built the car. Our organization has had the same problems it has had since the team went downhill in 97. Cant really fix them without serious people. That isnt enough to do the work necessary. I'll stop talking about this now because it is getting tedious.

[ScottW]

-"I hate Rob Woods" tee shirts are now for sale

I suppose you sell a lot of these...

[Sam Zimmerman]

Originally posted by Rob Woods:
I gave up more than anyone should for this competition that I love.

I am sure that you are the only person in FSAE who sacrificed other course work, family, other projects, time and money for FSAE. I am also sure that you are the only person who has ever been disappointed in this competition. Poor Rob, I feel sorry for you.

btw, you might want to remove the tag line, "I might be stupid..." You don't really have to tell us that, we all know.

[Big Bird]

Geez there has been a lot of anger on these boards of late. As far as being a forum where people can feel they can openly propose and discuss different ideas it is really falling off the twig. I don't get on here too much any more – but when I do it seems the board is just jammed with utterly lazy design requests ("send me the formula to design a chassis"�), or stupid grandstanding and name-calling. No wonder the better contributors are giving up on this forum.

I think Rob raised some perfectly good points. But it seems that whenever Rob opens his mouth, it is an open opportunity for everyone to jump in for a good old-fashioned witch hunt. And it seems opinions aren't worth anything if you have had a couple of hiccups on the way.

I am going to open myself to all sorts of criticism by saying this, but I like Rob Woods. Sometimes I agree with what he is saying, sometimes I don't - but I value that can think outside the mainstream and that he is not afraid to share his ideas. If those ideas are foreign to us, then it is our right to question and argue them - and I know Rob will argue them back. But I also know he is the sort of guy who will see the value in a good argument, and as long as you don't stoop to petty name calling he will respect you for your input.

But if the instant response is to bag someone who has different ideas to our own, then we have all sunk to the level of that knob-end a couple of threads across from here who equates defending his argument with calling his opponents stubborn and ignorant mentals.

A worthy skill in engineering is being able to think outside of the square, and when you do so being able to put forth a reasonable argument to justify yourself. If you look closely, that is what a large part of this competition is all about. Rob thinks outside the square, and makes a damn good attempt to justify himself – and he gets crucified. I would rather hear from someone who is willing to shake our tightly held beliefs, than for us all to populate these forums coo-cooing in each others ears and merrily agreeing with whatever anyone else says.

As far as the main thread of this topic goes, I have no problem with the SAE increasing the price of their event. So what, you pay $1000 to be a part of it. For that we get the opportunity to compete in a truly international competition, we get the time and resources of a whole team of tireless officials who give their everything to help us, we get the opportunity to promote ourselves in front of top-line engineering companies, and we get access to a whole host of motorsport experts like Claude Rouelle, Steve Fox, Dick Golembiewski, David Gould, Terry Satchell, Pat Clarke, Ross Brawn, etc etc etc. We are getting a damn good deal here. How many international motorsport events are there where $1000 will get a team of 10-20 people through the gate for four days of competition?

I know Rob raised the whole "real world vs. FSAE world"� argument, and it seems a few have taken offence. I have been confronted by the whole "real world"� argument many times before, in relation to all sorts of minor whinges like how the Cost Report Rules don't reflect the real world, or that in the real world you don't worry about fuel economy in a race car, or that you don't have to design race cars for 195cm drivers. If the real world is so attractive then by all means embrace it – and when you get there you will find that in the real world novice designers don't get access to all kinds of cutting edge software, manufacturing resources and sponsors money to indulge in their own racecar fantasies.

Anyway, enough from me. Just give the SAE a break, or we'll all just end up pigeon-holed as a bunch of spoilt little brats.

[Corey H]

Originally posted by TG:
Hmmmm, Phoenix International Raceway has said they'd be more than happy donating the facilities and other things to host an event... a deal like that would cut down on the costs of having an event.

Are you with ASU? That would be amazing if they would host an event 2 hours away instead of 33! We, at the U of A, would help push for that and do whatever is needed to get it there!

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

Competition cost isn't just $1000.
Hotel/food/gas/trailer/vehicle for us is another $1500 with less then 10 people going.

We have given a $600 "donation" in the past, its pretty hard to know if you will be ready in May by the middle of October when you register for competition.

I understand things go up in price and something has to be done to limit the number of teams, but you show me one team that didn't learn more in the 4 days of compeition then they did the whole time building the car, even if they didn't get to compete, and I will retract the statement that some limitation to numbers needs to happen.

My first year ('04) our car never drove under its own power(brakes sucked)...sucks but we learned a lot and saw what competition was all about. Next year we dropped our $600 and didnt bring a car...thats our fault.

I would have been content with a few hundred dollar increase, but $400 is a big jump.

Argue all you want but remember big brother SAE is reading this forum, thats why I posted, you guys are just fighting like school girls at this point.

[Conor]

Originally posted by drivetrainUW-Platt:
Competition cost isn't just $1000.
Hotel/food/gas/trailer/vehicle for us is another $1500 with less then 10 people going.

We have given a $600 "donation" in the past, its pretty hard to know if you will be ready in May by the middle of October when you register for competition.

I understand things go up in price and something has to be done to limit the number of teams, but you show me one team that didn't learn more in the 4 days of compeition then they did the whole time building the car, even if they didn't get to compete, and I will retract the statement that some limitation to numbers needs to happen.

My first year ('04) our car never drove under its own power(brakes sucked)...sucks but we learned a lot and saw what competition was all about. Next year we dropped our $600 and didnt bring a car...thats our fault.

I would have been content with a few hundred dollar increase, but $400 is a big jump.

Argue all you want but remember big brother SAE is reading this forum, thats why I posted, you guys are just fighting like school girls at this point.

I agree. I look back at what I contributed to this argument and I feel down right immature and silly. I really should not have let somebody get under my skin like that... especially over an internet thread. Let's be honest, arguing on the forum is time wasted not working on the car. The price increase is huge, especially for small teams. But the fact of the matter is, stepping up the price is also stepping up the competition. I'm excited to see the creative cost savings ideas people come up with in return.

[rjwoods77]

Geoff,

Check your PM's

[Professor Gas Can]

Hopefully we will get a chance to showcase our/Rob's unique car and with any luck justify our 2.something years of excuses. We've got a talented team behind us this year and hopefully you'll see some more bright ideas out of UB in the future...


Ian
"Engine Guy"
University at Buffalo

[js10coastr]

I've got a few general questions for the organizers if they're around. I'm curious about the direction of FSAE. I understand the addition of the VIR event, as it will relieve the Detroit and West event. And I'm sure that even with the increase in entry fee, in general teams will be saving in at least that in travel costs with events closer to home.

I would be interested in what the "5 year plan" for the competition is... if Detroit is still going to be the main event and if there is a way to determine the "world champions".

Also, speaking as a student who has seen the "corporate side" of educational systems... a lot of universities still don't see the value of these projects. The machine shop is considered "dirty" and not something that the school wants to promote. The projects cost a lot of money and take professors away from teaching or doing research. On top of that, various lawsuits and regulations make it more difficult to go out and do something "dangerous" and exciting.

Anyhow, those are just some minor concerns for the long term future of FSAE.

[Horace]

Where on the official SAE website does it say that registration fees are $1000? My school is not convinced that there is a price increase.

[Adam Zemke]

Where on the official SAE website does it say that registration fees are $1000? My school is not convinced that there is a price increase.

Horace Lai
Poly Racing, Team Manager
http://fsae.poly.edu

http://www.formulasae.org/forums/formula/dispatch.cgi/a...90102/No/t100104.htm (http://www.formulasae.org/forums/formula/dispatch.cgi/announcements/docProfile/100104/d20070905190102/No/t100104.htm)

That link goes to the "official" SAE Announcement forums, linked directly from SAE's website. It's identical to the post that sae_intl_grl posted here.

Good Luck!

[Poe]

It's also in the 2008 rules pdf.

[Steve O]

I have to say I agree a little with both sides of the argument here, it sucks that cost went up and this could potentially keep some teams from going. However, the teams it will keep from going are those with a poor upper management infrastructure. This is not meant to offend anyone but simply express that the money your team has is a direct result of the work you put in to making that money. Yeah some teams get a big check from their schools but most don't. We got 5 grand this year from our school (which is already gone by the way!)and by spending the entire summer meeting with alum and business owners I have raised around 10 grand. In addition to that money I have found around $100K + in grants for charities and education endeavours to which I anticipate getting at least 20K out of and anticapate a $30K-40K overall account balance this year.

My goal this year is to show how much a strong management to the team can make a big difference. In the past 3 years my school has not made it out to the competition because we couldn't finish the car on time or things broke at the last minute that we didn't have replacements for. This year the UHA car will be finished and ready for testing and tuning by December. This will hopefully give us the first competative car we have had in a LONG time.

I hope that puts things in perspective for those saying they wont be able to make it due to the cost increase. If you can't make it, sit it out this year, and make a killer car over the course of 2 years! You will still learn without going out to the competition, I promise. For everyone else suck it up, pay the fee and work extra hard in your management department to make up the extra costs... $400 could be talking to 1 alum from your school interested in cars or collecting 20 bucks from 20 members to offset costs. If you can't raise $400 more to make the competition you need to work on your team management because they are obviously not working effectively and certainly wont be able to lead you to success on the track. I know my statements are bold, but try and prove me wrong if your team is $400 short of building a winning car I'll give you the money myself.

Steve O

[rjwoods77]

Steve O,

Bravo. Sound like the same problems/history our team has. The team has an 2 year member who is a MBA student managing the project now so hopefully it will go good.

You are right on point with the management thing. This years write up by Mr.Mitchell in Racecar Engineering is titled this.

"Learning Curves: This year's FSAE events saw a definite rise in the standard of engineering but still a lack of innovation and, in many case, downright poor planning."

That title says to me that things are getting better and better and the series will eat those whom are not ready. Nature of race series when they get popular. And boy we got chewed up for a couple years now.

Note: We got a mention for our car and didnt even bring it. If you are underfunded/undertechnical then the worst way to compete is copy the big boys. Figure out a different formula to attack the problem and not cookie cutter it.

[Sim]

Okay, we all know that motorsport of any form including FSAE requires a heck of a lot of cash, and therefore we all need to raise a lot of cash to compete. My question, related to this topic, but mostly out of pure nosiness, is how many teams get non-Engineering students involved?

For those that only have engineers, you might want to consider the fact that marketing, commerce, communications, politics/public relations, physcology, pre-med/human movement etc students all need to get experience as well and FSAE is the perfect small business environment for this. Plus, including as many university departments as possible increases the university's willingness to hand over cash and increases the range of companies you can approach for sponsorship. The extra bonus is that you will probably get more females in your team too!

Also, have you considered 'interest filtering'? This is creating sponsorship deals with companies that already sponsor your university or engineering faculty with the cash you recieve being the interest the university earns on their sponsorship from the company. This benefits the company as they get twice the sponsorship opportunities from the one payment, benefits the university as they don't have to give the FSAE team cash out of the university's budget, and helps the team since 5%pa on even 50000 is still an extra 2500 dollars cash.

Sorry if this is common knowledge to everyone, but hopefully it will give newer teams something to think about.

Cheers,

Sim
Sponsor Liason, Marketing and PR assistant, Assistant Events Co-ordinator
and Token Commerce/Politics student of her FSAE team

[Biggy72]

We've been trying for several years to get people outside of the ME department to get involved. A good EE on the team would be amazing, but for now pretty much all of us are ME's. We've got a few random students from other disciplines, but they just want to work on and possibly drive a cool car, not get career experience.

Last year campus involvement, the governing body of all clubs on the Washington State University campus, told me that our club was only for engineering students so we don't deserve money from their general fund since they only sponsor clubs that let all members in. I argued with them, but to no avail. This was even after we participated in a few campus wide events talking about our club and what we do.

I tried getting a hold of the marketing department last year, but I couldn't get anyone that wanted to help. So until we can come up with something different our club will probably be ran completely by ME's, unless I can get my gf to help out with some of the business stuff.....

[Horace]

Is the "list of when everything is due" posted on the website yet? It's been a couple weeks since the registration was announced and I don't see that list on the website.

Any estimated date on when it'll be up?

[Wes Johnson]

Wow...registration filled in 10 minutes.

[Grant Mahler]

anyone else feel the rush? adrenaline pumping through my wrists as i furiously clicked "PAY NOW!" and watched my credit card shrink....

[Adam Zemke]

10 minutes is crazy! Two years ago it took 33 or 35 minutes.

[Grant Mahler]

120 teams at East, ~30 teams at VIR, ~40 teams at west, ~0 teams for Hybrid.

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

As far as I can tell we are team 057.
We had to do it through school to get the credit card number and the computer we were using was slow as 80W-140! Got through at 9:03....
10 minutes is insane!!!!!!!!!!!

[kapps]

We got through alright. #65 from what I can tell.

We'd love to go to VIR as well but another $1k is not going to happen (plus it's the week before finals).

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

Anyone know if there are repeats that need to be adjusted for? The list on sae.org for registred teams doesn't have any repeats.

[JamesWolak]

How can you tell what number you are?

[Adam Zemke]

http://students.sae.org/competitions/formulaseries/

Click on the event that you are going to and then on "Registered Teams" Car numbers are assigned based upon order of registration.

[JamesWolak]

I only see our school...

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

You need to click on Formula SAE then registred teams to see the list if you use the link posted.

[Adam Zemke]

Originally posted by JamesWolak:
I only see our school...

I believe that you are clicking on "Register" You need to look down to the third bullet point under Competition Information and click on "Registered Teams". I just verified that it takes you to a list of all teams who are registered for whatever event you selected.

[Pete M]

Looks like Michigan will be an interesting comp. I don't see UWA registered though, that's a shame. Oh well, we're going and it looks like RMIT is too, so there'll be some aussie presence at least.

Look forward to seeing you all there!

[Dan Lentsch]

ouch.. I tried and failed to register.. my damn computer locked up.. oh well FSAE West and VIR here we come.. can anyone say 2010 mi road trip?

[Adam Zemke]

Dan,

That sucks about your computer. The roadtrip out to CA is a lot of fun - we have made it in as little as 35 hours from East Lansing, so it's definitely bearable. The weather for racing in California is definitely some of the best (if not the best) that I've ever seen. I'm sure that the teams who've been out to West would agree.

[Dan Lentsch]

I am definatly excited. Glad to hear that atleast one other team has made the road trip, an liked it!

[Brian Barnhill]

We got through: # 53, and we clicked the link within the first few seconds, and finalized about 9:02

We had 8 of us in a lab on various computers and systems, with West open as a back up just to make sure we got in. We'd love to go to VIR, but it's the week of finals, and the extra $1k...

We are trying to scrape together the support to make it out to West. We are not shy of road trips, and the GTO could use the open roads (and higher speed limits http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

[Chris @ UML]

This is the first year that our team has tried to register. I have to say that I had an idea how crazy it would be, but 11 minutes is just nuts. Logged on before 10:00 but the site got flooded...oh well, VIR and FSAE waitlist, here we come.

[Steve O]

Originally posted by Dan Lentsch:
ouch.. I tried and failed to register.. my damn computer locked up.. oh well FSAE West and VIR here we come.. can anyone say 2010 mi road trip?

Hey Dan, I'll race you out there!

We had the same problem. Internet was too slow to ever load the page... I felt like I was trying to win a radio contest. Consequently, we will be making a 2900 mile road trip now.

Anyone know of any places somewhat local to New England that rents out F350's (or larger) with a hitch?

Anyway, look forward to seeing you out there Dan!

Steve

U of H

[diesel_truck_man]

Hertz has a commercial rental side, with locations around new england, (at least around boston anyway). They have pickups for rent. I believe their website is http://www.hertzequip.com

[mtg]

Anybody making the long road trip from NE to California is welcome to pit stop in Denver. The list of FSAE alums in town is getting pretty big.