Anybody read "UTA Wins" thing...

[rjwoods77]

Whoever wrote that has a serious "hitler youth" complex. Every sentance was how "we showed how our car was the best example" and "they all could learn alot from us" and "we won all the trophies". What also was funny was "we won alot of money" and the "Oh sorry 2nd place, you would have won but our car was so much more superior to yours." So all that article says to me is that "We went and competed against teams with 15 years less experience than us and we are so much better than them." Who wrote this crap. Seriously, UTA kicks ass and there car shows incredible development, but this article is such a wang stroker that it smacks of sore winning. The other race caps just describe the facts and ususally include how other teams fought for the lead real hard. This one reads like we played pro football with high school kids. We rock.

UTA dont let a 12 year old who thinks his toys are better then everyone elses write an article.

[stevep]

the article was a little cocky, but i've encountered far worse in fsae with much less to back it up.

[rjwoods77]

It wasnt cocky. It was bourgeois arrogant. Thats all i was saying. "UTA is god gift to Japan." Thats what I was saying how it read. UTAzilla

[Denny Trimble]

Rob Woods,
The author of that article is Dr. Bob Woods, UTA's faculty advisor, member of the FSAE rules committee since the early 80's (if not writer of the original rules... I'm not sure on that one), and the innaugural recipient of the Carroll Smith Mentor's Cup.

Dr. Bob is one of the friendliest, most influential supporters of FSAE, even offering us tire pressure recommendations while competing against us at the SCCA Nationals in 2003 (and it cost him a placing http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

So, as many have suggested before, I hope you'll pull your head out of your ass and show a little respect for once. As far as racing press releases go, I've seen far worse.

[rjwoods77]

Doesnt matter whos toes it is. If he wrote it then he, more than anyone, should have been more articulate then "everyone has everthing to learn from UTA" wether it is true or not. Still bourgeois. I said nothing of the car being bad. I respect it. I just thought the article was a little in poor taste.

[rjwoods77]

By the way Denny. I respect you more than anyone I know in Formula because you talk to me personally but will still call me an a@#hole. I find that cool.

[Eddie Martin]

The article like all the ones in the news section are written by the teams to publicize themselves to sponsors and supporters, not give a review of the competition.

UTA should be congratulated for taking the time and effort to go to Japan and show them what an fsae car/team can be. RIT and UTA did the same in the first year of fsae-a and it really helped all the Oz teams out a lot by showing us what could be done. We have been next to UTA in the pits for the last two usa comps and they are great guys that have an awesome car.

Eddie Martin
UOW Racing Alumni

[Grover]

It's a very pretty car.

Rob. I'd like to see you put a car next to it that brings any substance to your bitchin.
I know this seems obvious but being a loser and whinging about other people's success will get you nowhere.

[Garlic]

Rob this is a foolish and ignorant post, that exists for no good reason other than to bash a well respected person's account of an event you know nothing about.

UTA did show JSAE how to build a SAE car well. They are so 'green' to this event, and on top of that have a language barrier to deal with. They need and respect an established team that comes over and can set an example and a goal. I am confident that any JSAE competitors would agree that what th article says is true.

Like Eddie said, when RIT went down under they dominated too, and opened up the Aussie teams eyes to what can be done. That didn't make the Aussie teams stupid, they were just inexperienced and I'm sure it helped the Aussie teams reach thier high level of success like they have.

[rjwoods77]

Grover: I said nothing but good things about their car. Just the article.

Garlic: I said nothing about anyone being stupid. Just said the article bothered me because of how it was written. What about the tokyo car that did pretty good for their first time out? The way that FSAE is going with is small and single motored engines is what they did their first year out. If anything the combination of them and RMIT rocked the formula community to show that you can do the same thing with half a car. I think we all have things to learn from those 2 teams more than uta.

Everyone: You think the Japs need any help on their cars? Give them a little time and they will be up with the top teams. Just like the Aussies.

[Frank]

well UTA came to aussie at our "first comp"..
and did the same thing

I chatted to a number of them and thaught them all nice..

but i dare them to come back and try and win again http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Frank

most of us get the point Rob is making, some disagree, get over it

[Cement Legs]

peace http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

So the Dolphins got rid of Dave Wandsted, and it looks like that looser Fiedler is out of Miami as well. Things are looking up for Dol-phans.

Cheers

[Angry Joe]

Even the best car can suffer from bad luck. If I remember they didn't finish the endurance in MI.

[Dick Golembiewski]

I've known Bob Woods for over 20 years now. We have our disagreements - a few significant - but he's always been there for FSAE.

For the record, Dr. Ron Mathews founded Formula SAE in 1981. It was inspired by the one-off SAE Mini-Indy competition of 1979 (Founded by Kurt Marshek), but rather than bulding karts with 5 h.p. Briggs & Stratton engines, schools were to build race cars. There was no displacement limit, nor were there limits on fuel. A single restrictor (larger in diameter than those currently) had to be used. The fuel econmoy event came from the Mini-Indy, and was a separate event for many years.

I was at the 1984 competition in my first year as a faculty advisor. It was obvious that if the competition grew beyond a dozen cars, some changes would have to be made. Ron did a good job with what he had, but it was time to kick things up a notch. I had just joined the SAE Student Activities Committee, and brought my concerns to them. UTA was to host the 1985 competition, and we gave Bob Woods some guidelines. He took the ball and ran with it. the concept was changed from building a race car to building a production car suitable for autocross. The SCCA was brought in for the first time, and the passing zones were established in the endurance event.

To the subject at hand:

Ron, I read the press release, and didn't find it to be in the spirit you described. We all get to interpret things our own way. I didn't read anything into it that was arrogant. The comment on the trophies is in the context of how beautiful they were. The comment re: the second place team was simply a way of being polite. UTA did bring a well-developed car to the competition. the Japanese teams DID get a chance to see what a contemporary (and design finalist in the USA) car looked - and performed - like.

As I said, Bob and I disagree on a few things, but here I must stand in his corner.

- Dick

[HardCore]

Having just tuned in, I have to say, that "media release" would have to be one of the worst I've read.
You name it, it had it all, poor english, gloating and arrogance.
I don't know any of the parties involved, nor the situation that the release describes, but really, it's a shocker and the author should be ashamed.
It was not a media release, nor event round up, nor victory speech; it was grandstanding of the worst sort.
It is marked by an utter lack of grace, respect and humility in what is otherwise a comendable achievement.
Pull your head(s) in and try to be better winners.

[Denny Trimble]

HardCore,
If you feel so strongly about grace, respect, and humility, why not identify yourself with a name, school, and email address?

[Joel Miller]

Seems to me that the problem for many is that this article is on the FSAE site. We kind of expect news looking articles with direct links from www.fsae.com (http://www.fsae.com) would have a more balenced perspective. If this article was on the UTA website (or a similar article about our own teams on our own websites) there wouldn't be an uproar. Context is everything.

Plus, although we are curious about the Japan comp, this is the only article that many of us have read about the competition.

I, too, have met Dr Woods and have nothing but good to say about him. He is kind, generous, extraordinarily accomodating and works hard for F-SAE and the students that get involved. And nobody can deny that UTA has a great car and an enviable record.

Put yourself in their shoes. They'd have to be pleased after the big investment to get overseas and performing well. How can they write about anything with authority other than their own subjective experience?

To re-iterate, context is everything.

Joel Miller
UWA Motorsport Newsletter editor

[HardCore]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Denny Trimble:
HardCore,
If you feel so strongly about grace, respect, and humility, why not identify yourself with a name, school, and email address? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well Denny, for a couple of reasons, partly because the internet is a great place for hypocrisy but mostly because I like stirring people up.
And so like al good hipocrites:
Monash '03
Alex
email: alexlockie@hotmail.com
Context really is everything isn't it. I love internet forums.
Cheers Denny have a good one mate http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Charlie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joel Miller:
Seems to me that the problem for many is that this article is on the FSAE site. We kind of expect news looking articles with direct links from http://www.fsae.com would have a more balenced perspective. If this article was on the UTA website (or a similar article about our own teams on our own websites) there wouldn't be an uproar. Context is everything.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This isn't the really the 'FSAE' site. It's not affiliated with FSAE in any way. If you notice all the 'news releases' are simply submissions from the teams that very likely started out on the team's website or as an official university press release.

Anyway I see nothing wrong with the article, but can understand if someone gets a bit put off by some of the wording. What I can't understand is why anyone would champion the cause and waste space bitching about it.

Rob, many of your posts are much more arrogant and condescending than anything in that article.

[rjwoods77]

I would disagree with that statement. All i have ever done is called someone an idiot for saying something stupid towards me. Just a pervasive uppity attitude that Formula people have that formula people may not realise because they are surrounded by it. Ask any baja, snowmobile, mileage guy and he will tell you what formula kids are like. Bourgy attitudes. And to top it off it is somehow considered poor taste or a big no-no to call someone on his bullcrap. Especially if it is an esteemed guy. However, I guess I am an ass to call anyone, including myself on anything. In any of those other series you will see someones ego get smashed in a heartbeat if ever put upon people like that.

[Alan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rob Woods:
Everyone: You think the Japs need any help on their cars? Give them a little time and they will be up with the top teams. Just like the Aussies. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Am I the only one that finds this reference to Japanese people offensive?

[Denny Trimble]

Another interesting fact, I thought you all were talking about the article in the SAE October 2004 Collegiate Design Series newsletter, available here. (http://www.sae.org/students/cdsnewsletter1004.pdf)

It appears to me that the administrators of this fine forum have copied and pasted that article, without credit to Dr. Woods or a link to the SAE newsletter. A little shady, in my opinion.

Alex, thanks for showing yourself http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[rjwoods77]

Wow. Thats is nuts that the article was hacked so hard. I have to apologize for any percieved ill attitude toward Dr. Woods that may have come across. I never came out and said anything bad about him though because I never felt that way towards him. My comments were directed to who ever wrote it, which someone said was Dr. Woods so I guess people might think it was attached to him. Whoever re-wrote that article is an a@@hole because the rewrite was intentionally made to UTA look bad. I am not dodging the complete apology, just saying I was going on bad info.

Again Dr. Woods, I apologize for any direction this post went towards and perceived ill will because it was I who had commented on the whole thing to begin with. So regardless of who wrote it, the blame lays in my lap for anything that might possible discredit you and your teams reputation.

[rjwoods77]

Now that I think about it again: Who ever rewrote the article, wether it was UTA or FSAE, it doesnt read well and comes off pretty bad which was my original point. Who did it really isnt important any more unless FSAE or UTA wants to say something about it. But I suspect the non-responsible party looks at this as usless blather so....

[PatClarke]

Rob. maybe the time has come to sit down and have a nice meal of grilled Corvus brachyrhynchos with a nice mushroom sauce. Some tabasco sauce might help give it some palatability and a glass or two of merlot will help wash it down.
Then let this thread die! No, kill it dead!
PDR

BTW, a slightly less peurile signature might help your credibility.

[Big Bird]

Pat,

Seems you've recently devoured a hearty meal of roast thesaurus http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oops, extending the life of this thread....

Cheers

[Michael Jones]

This thread is highly amusing. UTA and Dr. Bob Woods are called out for being arrogant "wang strokers" by an even more arrogant ass.

"Hitler youth complex." Geez. Rob - chill out and hope to hell you're not tangentially related to Dr. Bob, or you'll have some explaining to do at the next Woods' family reunion.

That noted, I'd have to agree that the UTA release is a bit over the top in places. Otherwise could benefit from less conjecture and personal observations. It reads more like a personal blog entry than a press release, frankly. I suspect it was a rush job.

As for its vainglorious tone at times, I do believe the Japanese teams were grateful for the chance to see a fine FSAE car up close and in action, and I do believe UTA went to FSAE-J as an ambassador of FSAE in general and to mentor new teams. FSAE-J is new, as are many of the teams there. I'm sure they were eager to learn from UTA's team and car - as they would be from any other top-tier team.

But it's one thing for this to be true and another thing to publicly announce how fabulously magnaminous you are yourself.

The positive spinoff of UTA's presence and willingness to help I trust are authentic, but it would've come across a lot more convincingly had the release quoted Japanese team leaders or advisors to that effect.

Whatever the case, I applaud UTA for going to Japan and helping develop the series in Asia. Given how the Asian teams that have shown up to Detroit have improved in the last few years, I trust they'll be a force soon, just as the Australians quickly ramped it up.

Oh, and not to be picky, but if the car was pulling 1.4-1.6g in turns, why didn't UTA finish top three in skidpad? Something happen there? I mean, 12th in 2004 and only 0.9 off Wisconsin should translate a bit higher, no?

[Dr. Bob Woods]

Well, I was just made aware of this thread and I feel that I should respond to set any records straight that need to be.

Yes, I wrote the article and yes it was sort of a rush job written immediately after the event. It was intended to be a trip report to our sponsors and supporters. It was not intended to be a general press release summarizing the entire event. I subsequently sent it to SAE for the online newsletter and to FSAE.com, which I now regret. In retrospect, I should have taken the time to write more of a press release even though I don't think it is my place to represent the Japan SAE's perspective of the event. I would hope that Sid Ogura or someone from Japan would do that.

I appreciate those that spoke up for me on this forum. UTA has gone to every international inaugural FSAE event and our intentions in doing so are to help jump-start the organizers and teams. I appreciated the way that Australia handled the first year by having an international class and a domestic class so there could be an Australian winner. It is hard for starting schools to go up against a well-developed car and team. If you re-read my article, I think I am apologizing for taking away trophies from the Japanese teams. We didn't go there to be arrogant and "kick butts"�, we went there as mentors and ambassadors for FSAE. I wish they would have had an international class as well or let us compete without points.

To answer some questions, I did write the rules in 1985 that are essentially what we are using today. Alan, I have the highest respect for the Japanese people and have a long history with some very good friends from Japan and have been there a dozen times. I would never intend to be disrespectful in any way. Michael, we did record the g's at the Japan autocross using a g-Analyst and observed a consistent 1.6 g's. The reasons are due to the good surface, warm tires, and the aero. Most of the turns were tight, but probably not as tight as the official skid pad, so you can't really compare dynamic turns on an autocross using warm tires to the Detroit skid pad. On the skid pad at Detroit, the conditions haven't been good during most of the USA competitions (cold weather, rain, cold tires, etc.) so the g's are less. Now, why UTA doesn't do better on the Detroit skid pad is another question. In 2000 in Australia we did pull over 1.4 g's on their skid pad (to the best of my recollection) due to the warm weather and a good surface.

I would hope that we could all respect this forum as an exchange of ideas and information for a sport that we all enjoy. People that enjoy "stirring things up"� and eliciting controversy should find another forum for their outlet. Everyone should identify their real name and their affiliations. In some respects you do represent your school with your comments just as you thought I represented all of JSAE with my "press release"�.

-Dr. Bob Woods
UTA Faculty Advisor

[Cement Legs]

I read your article Dr. Woods and in spite of the fact that it 'may' have sounded pro-UTA I really enjoyed it. Anytime we get involved with something that takes a huge commitment we are going to need dedication and motivation. The sense of passion and excitement that your school has for this competition was obvious in your article and that creates dedication and motivation. If we can't get excited about something we spend so much of our copious amounts of free time labouring over then there is a problem. Sure, a lot of North American teams could have gone to Japan and won. Even the Miami Dolphins could whip UCS in football, but what the Trojans would walk away with in experience cannot be measured. I believe that friendly and hard fought competition is needed for progress and that was brought to FSAE Japan by UTA. Kudos.

However, I would disagree with your point about the use of this forum. I enjoy the fact that people have a freedom to chat, share, vent, complain or say whatever comes to mind. It's just one more challenge for engineers to sift through the data to find what is usefull. Maybe it even allows a person to reflect on their own comments after reading how other people have reacted. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif (ie oops is that my foot in my mouth?)