FS-UK Silverstone 2010 Competition: - Updates, Pictures, Stories and More

[bob.paasch]

Time to start getting info posted from Silverstone.

[bob.paasch]

Time to start getting info posted from Silverstone.

[Bemo]

PICTURES?!

[JR @ CFS]

Hey, this is so unfair to those of us who cannot attend! Who has passed through scrutineering, what special cars have been spotted, which plucky team is up to all hours making sure their secret widget is ready to take on the established teams.

Come on, a little more information would be greatly appreciated by those of us who can't make it!

[Bemo]

I'm not there this year either, but here's all the information I got via Twitter.

Stuttgart, Karlsruhe and Delft got all stickers yesterday. Munich and UAS Graz have passed scrutineering but are missing noise and brake.

Weights:
Stuttgart 196kg
Delft 137kg
Munich 191,5kg
Zwickau 199,5
Karlsruhe 219,5

Karlsruhe is driving direct injection this year.

Class 1A:
Zürich passed the rain test, but couldn't finish scrutineering yesterday. Don't know how the electric car from Graz is doing. Zwickau isn't there, they had a problem with their car, they weren't able to fix in time.

Weather seems to be pretty English (cold and rainy) and I heard some stories about a heavy storm last night.

That's all the information I got so far.

[Fil]

the Monash guys were telling me they got their stickers and weighed in at 231kgs. The car got a little fatter since the aus comp.

[Bemo]

That's what usually happens. Our cars always get heavier from comp to comp without changing anything...

[JR @ CFS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bemo:


Karlsruhe is driving direct injection this year.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's excellent, I was wondering who would be first to do it. Excellent technical challenge for a Uni team to take on...isn't that what this competition is all about http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Bemo]

If you ask me this competition is about building fast cars. And I doubt DI can help a lot for that.

But there we are at the other thing this competition is about - hving different opinions about car concepts ;-)

[TMichaels]

Today the weather was very english. Rain and sun changed in ten minute periods.
Zürich is the only full-electric car that made it through complete scrutineering and got all stickers. They also won Class 1A Design. Congratulations!

Combustion:
TU Munich, Delft and GFR look strong. TU Graz and Monash also seem to do well.
The autocross track was set this evening and is very interesting. Monash should definitely have an advantage here, since the track layout is very open and fast.
Let's hope for constant conditions tomorrow.

Regards,

Tobias

[Jon Oneill]

From what I've heard off twitter so far, AMZ looks a fair way out in front of the 1a class.

Monash is currently in 2nd at the end of auto x which is also positive to hear for all of us down under.

Auto x:
Monash: 59.2
Stuttgart: 1.01.6

TU graz has had a front suspension failure, not sure why yet though?

Acceleration:
Monash: 3.98
TU München: 3.75
Stuttgart: 3.92
Bath: 4.26
Hanover: 4.59
UAS Graz: 5.59 with possible driveline/engine failure

Business presentation:
Stuttgart = 1st

Skidpad:
Monash: 4.918
Stuttgart: 5.076

Full results as they appear at the event @
http://www.formulastudent.com/.../FS2010/results.aspx (http://www.formulastudent.com/events/FS2010/results.aspx)

And a big thanks to all of the people updating the rest of us constantly from the event. Cant wait to hear what happens next and see some pictures.

[ed_pratt]

come on people! where are the pictures?!!!

[Stef de Jong]

Ok boys and girls, a very preliminary result overview gathered from twitter accounts:

Acc won by Munchen, 3.75. Stuttgart @ 3.93. Delft 4.05. Ravensburg unknown to me.

Skidpad won by Ravensburg(time ?), Delft at 2 with 5.055, Stuttgart @ 5 with

AutoX won by Ravensburg with 57.something, Delft again at 2 with 58.08. Stuttgart @ 61.66 (5th). Munchen 59.08.

Design finalists include Delft, Stuttgart, Munchen, Ravensburg (and Joanneum Graz?) 6th place for Munchen, 5th for Rennteam. Rest still unknown to me.

Cost unknown, only known that Ravensburg and Delft are about equal (5th place-ish, my guess about 70 points). Munchen and Stuttgart around places 40-45, probably considerably lower (10 to 20 points).

Business won by stuttgart. Ravensburg unknown to me, Delft 66 points.

From what I've heard Delft and Ravensburg are about equal for first and second place, followed with a minor gap by Munchen (before design finals results). So probably The gap increased as Munchen was 6 in Design (so Delft + Ravensburg more points there). Also I did not consider Monash, since I have received message that they got 0 points for design for not/very late delivering the design report. Is this true?

So, very preliminary as I've said. I hope someone can fill in the blanks!

Stef de Jong
DUT09 Team Manager
DUT Racing Team

[Stef de Jong]

A small addition, just received message from Silverstone that the marshalls are again not doing a good job.

I quote: "I saw today how the TU Graz car was destroyed by marshalls who lifted the car by it's A-arms and then almost dropped the car".

Thanks to FSG for having this bit covered properly every single year!

Stef de Jong

[MalcolmG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Skidpad won by Ravensburg(time ?), Delft at 2 with 5.055, Stuttgart @ 5 with

AutoX won by Ravensburg with 57.something, Delft again at 2 with 58.08. Stuttgart @ 61.66 (5th). Munchen 59.08.
Business won by stuttgart. Ravensburg unknown to me, Delft 66 points.

From what I've heard Delft and Ravensburg are about equal for first and second place, followed with a minor gap by Munchen (before design finals results). So probably The gap increased as Munchen was 6 in Design (so Delft + Ravensburg more points there). Also I did not consider Monash, since I have received message that they got 0 points for design for not/very late delivering the design report. Is this true?

So, very preliminary as I've said. I hope someone can fill in the blanks!

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Monash folk have informed me they were 1st in skidpad with a 4.91, 3rd in autocross, and although they didn't do fantastically in design (19th) I'm pretty sure they didn't get 0 points.

[TMichaels]

Hi,
Results that were published on the event and are therefore official:
Acceleration won by TU München
Skidpad won by Monash, Delft, Stuttgart and München not too far away
AutoX won by Ravensburg, 2nd Delft, Monash on 3, München not too far away.

Design Finalists:
Ravensburg, Delft, UAS Graz, Amberg-Weiden, TU München, Stuttgart

Cost won by Ryerson, Delft and Ravensburg close to each other not to far away

Looks like it is going to be between Ravensburg, Delft and München with Monash and Stuttgart with a small gap behind.

Regarding the electric cars:
Zürich showed a very good performance in the AutoX with 61.xx and that was their re-run as they were catching up to another car during a lap that was probably faster than their re-run!
Eindhoven was second, but a bit apart.
If Zürich finishes Endurance, they should win the competition.

Birmingham lost a wheel during AutoX, but it looked more like a loose wheelnut and not a structural problem.
TU Graz hit a cone and their right suspension broke off. The marshals tried to get the car off the track and damaged the left suspension while trying to lift the car by pulling at the a-arms. The driver and the team were shouting at the marshals not to do that, but it didn't help.
There were several re-runs because of faster cars catching slower cars during autocross.

Regards,

Tobias

[JR @ CFS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Thanks to FSG for having this bit covered properly every single year! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Must be hard being perfect! These guys are volunteers and having been one myself, would appreciate constructive critism not simply being told they are crap!

Thank-you for the updates http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Much appreciated

[Jon Oneill]

For those of us who are desperate for photos. IMechE has some up on the site. Its nice to see such a quick turn around by them on the photo front.

[JR @ CFS]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/queensracing

QFR posted results and pics

[Stef de Jong]

Hi guys,

the latest mail just received from the track. As the Delft calculations are, Ravensburg is leading. Just behind with 4 points is Delft, 29 points behind is Munchen and 44 points behind is Stuttgart. Normally, these standings should be correct within 2 points margin or so.

If all cars would finish Enduro, regarding the face that Ravensburg and Delft were the faster cars at AutoX and their single-cyl fuel eco, it will be between them for the win normally. Though I can remember some fast AutoX winners that drove a mediocre Enduro.

@ JR. What are you trying to say here? That is should summarize all the things I ever saw in the past 3 years FSUK? The problem is that the teams have indicated the problems (I can remember myself talking this over with Neil, Kate and Fiona, together with the Rennteam boys) for a lot right now, both via official and unofficial ways. The fact is that the FSUK organisation cannot use their 'own' selected marshalls (like FSG for instance), because the Silverstone track owners always use their own marshalls at every event. Guys who have proven to be not very able when marshalling the FSAE competition; non-flagging, treating cars not properly, not seeing OC's and cones, giving green flags to cars when the car in front has not cleared the track, taking ages to clean up oil....just to give a short list. At FSG they use as far as I know former team members from teams, who know what it is to build and drive a FSAE car, thus better understanding the comp and what is and is not required of them. I know the FSUK orga know about and acknowledge this problem, but they are not able to change this (according to their own sayings).

Regards,

Stef de Jong
DUT09 Team Manager
DUT Racing

[Stef de Jong]

Got three design scores for you guys

Ravensburg 149 - winner
Delft 148.5 - 2nd
Stuttgart 132 - position unknown

Stef

[MalcolmG]

or you can get all of them here:
http://www.formulastudent.com/.../FS2010/results.aspx (http://www.formulastudent.com/events/FS2010/results.aspx)

[Osth]

Full design, cost and presentation scores are now up at: http://www.formulastudent.com/.../FS2010/results.aspx (http://www.formulastudent.com/events/FS2010/results.aspx)

Now we're just waiting for the dynamic events and the current status in the endurance.

[Florian]

fyi

e-graz after collision (http://yfrog.com/5jqdnj)

official dectiption from FSUK (http://www.formulastudent.com/Files/FORMULA%20STUDENT%20INCIDENT%20NOTICE%20%2018%20JU LY%202010.pdf)

and

FS-twitter collection (http://twitter.com/FStotal/formula-sae-student)

[jerry_tung]

The track is said to be very different this year, what difference then?

[Bemo]

Here's what I heard from Silverstone:

Delft and GFR didn't finish, TUG didn't even start in Endurance

Looks like Munich is the winner and Stuttgart and Monash behind (no idea about the order).

1A should be won bei Zürich. Graz electric car had a terrible crash during brake test, when brake pedal broke. Driver is OK, but not sure if they will be able to start at Hockenheim.

[RenM]

Karlsruhe twitters:

Winner Overall:
Monash 3rd
Stuttgart 2nd
Munich 1st

Congratulations!

[Bemo]

Zürich won class 1A. Also congratulation to them. I'm so looking forward to Hockenheim...

[Stef de Jong]

Aw too bad for Delft and Ravensburg for not finishing what otherwise would be a close call. The Delft drop out was a broken starting relais, which caused the car not to start after the change (as from I have heard).

Congratulations to TUFast, if anyone deserved a win regarding their effort and fair share of bad luck at Enduro's the past years it must be them.

I say rematch in Hockenheim, including ETS and OSU.

Greets

Stef de Jong
DUT09 Team Manager
DUT Racing

[Jon Oneill]

Pictures anyone?

[Tech Guy]

Those complaining need to give the organisers of FS a break. Until you have walked in their shoes, you don't know the challenges of putting on an event.

To get insurance, the organisers of Formula Student UK are forced to run under a permit from the MSA, the organizing body for motor sports in the UK. This means they have to use the marshals in the orange suits. The FSAE/FS alumni are stationed out on the track to count the cones and the off-courses. They are not allowed out on the track or to move cars. As far as the TUG suspension failure is concerned, I heard that it was the flexi-joints. If they are not strong enough to stand hitting a cones, and the cones at FS are very light, or if the suspension is so fragile it cannot stand the car being moved in a hurry for the other competitors, it is poor design!

[pablo180]

Greetings all,
First off congrats to the winners and to all the participants that were able to make it to competition. This was my first on this side of the Atlantic and I had a great time.

I'd like to chime in on the track workers discussion and offer up some suggestions. First we have to understand that ultimately they are all volunteers who are taking their own personal time to put on the event for us. Due to the nature of the competition, every car is built different, thus the areas where a car can be picked up and moved vary greatly. To expect each track worker to be able to identify where a car can be supported, while watching other cars on the track and managing the safety of everyone in the vicinity at the same time is not a simple task.

In my personal opinion, the way to address this problem is to regulate it via the rules with more rigid definitions as to where the car must be able to be picked up, demonstrate this during tech inspection, and to ask the organizers to review the regulations with the track workers prior to dynamic competition events.

Thinking about it for a bit, the main roll hoop could be one area that the car could be picked up from now without any additional regulations required...however that would facilitate the use of a forklift...something that would have to be requested of the event organizers.

Addition of a front jacking point would be another approach that together with the rear jacking point would be areas that could help organizers where exactly to pick up the cars from without damaging anything else on the car.

One last note on the track/safety workers....I'd like to commend them on their response time to the TU GRAZ E-car incident. It happened right in front of us as we were waiting at the fuel station after completing enduro and they were there in a matter of seconds. Job well done.

Pablo Olmedo
Oxford Brookes Univ.

[JR @ CFS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tech Guy:
Those complaining need to give the organisers of FS a break. Until you have walked in their shoes, you don't know the challenges of putting on an event.

To get insurance, the organisers of Formula Student UK are forced to run under a permit from the MSA, the organizing body for motor sports in the UK. This means they have to use the marshals in the orange suits. The FSAE/FS alumni are stationed out on the track to count the cones and the off-courses. They are not allowed out on the track or to move cars. As far as the TUG suspension failure is concerned, I heard that it was the flexi-joints. If they are not strong enough to stand hitting a cones, and the cones at FS are very light, or if the suspension is so fragile it cannot stand the car being moved in a hurry for the other competitors, it is poor design! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand it (FSUK Marshalls) is something that crops up time and again, but Steve Fox of FSG puts it quite well in his article, which is actually in reference to driver controls, but still applies here;

"This is a topic which all FSAE/FS volunteers (Design Judges & Scrutineers in particular) are sensitive to because we, on occasion, have actually broken student built cars. Make no mistake about it, when this happens, we feel very badly that we have broken something which students have put long hard hours of design/build/test time into. However, we are also quick to point out that we would much rather see the suspect part break standing still, rather than out on the track where someone (be it a student driver, or worse yet, an innocent spectator) could be injured or worse. Unfortunately, some students get upset, and feel that they are being unfairly singled out, because: “We tested that ____ (insert one: brake pedal, steering shaft, accelerator pedal, gear shift, etc) beyond reasonable limits, and it didn’t break for us.”

[Michael Royce]

I agree with TechGuy. If your car was held up by the corner workers taking their time to remove a disabled car in front of YOUR car, I guarantee you would probably complain about that too! You fellows cannot have it both ways!

The corner workers are instructed to pull a disabled car off the track as quickly as practical so as not to slow down the cars behind, especially during Endurance when time is the essence. And the only way to move a car with a broken suspension is to physically lift it by the A-arms. The cars need to be designed to take that sort of lifting.

[Bemo]

I also think that the only possible solution for this problem is to define areas, were cars can be lifted up. There should be no problem when the car is carried at its wheels.
The problem about the A-arms is, that if well design, the almost don't see any bending. But if you try to lift the car at them, they get a lot of bending. I can absolutely garantee that you can't carry any car of the top teams at the A-arms!
The marshals at FSUK are a definitely a problem. During last year's endurance one of them was almost hit by our car, because he walked on the track without watching for cars! So it isn't only about damaging cars or something, but in some cases about safety. When the Munich car stopped last year it was quite heavily smoking, but none of the officials had a look at it to check, if it was burning.
But what I heard from this year, they did a perfect job, when the Graz E-car crashed, so perhabs it's already improving.

I'm pretty sure that everybody appreciates the work, these people are doing, but some incidents have to be discussed. If cars get damaged or people get almost hit by cars because of mistakes of the marshals the answer can't be "they are volunteers, so don't critisize them".

[RenM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pablo180:
Due to the nature of the competition, every car is built different, thus the areas where a car can be picked up and moved vary greatly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No Car should ever be lifted at the A-Arms.
You wouldnt lift a car at the steering wheel either, would you?
Due to the nature of the competition, every car is build to the same basic principle.
You can lift every car at the wheels, at the main body, the mainhoop, the jacking point. Thats it.

[sscollins]

The Graz suspension failed at the inner joints during the sprint. It was going down the straight and just broke - ImechE have good pictures of it.

As Micheal points out the car was in the way and had to be moved. Better luck next year guys.

I really enjoyed this years competition - for the first time I got to sit through the presentation judging. Its very mixed and some teams are throwing away very easy points.

Now when will we get a British winner?

(free Racecar Engineering promo - www.racecar-engineering.com/fstudent (http://www.racecar-engineering.com/fstudent)

[pablo180]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RenM:
No Car should ever be lifted at the A-Arms.
You wouldnt lift a car at the steering wheel either, would you?
Due to the nature of the competition, every car is build to the same basic principle.
You can lift every car at the wheels, at the body, the mainhoop, the jacking point. Thats it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, the A-arms or the steering wheel would not be the best places to pick up the car after a failure. Again, this is what has to be better communicated to the track workers. You cant always pick up the car from the wheels, case in point is a suspension failure on one of the corners...and accessing the body in a structural location in many occasions is not so easy from the front or from the sides without damaging another component on the car.

[Stef de Jong]

Hi all,

Discussing a delicate matter like this requires a sensible approach, there is not black or white here.

In my opinion it is always good to be critical towards any aspect of an event or the organisation, but i agree that the volunteers put a lot of effort in it, thus they should be given room for error. Without criticism, however, it will never improve. That's why I want to encourage FSUK to do the same as FSG and allow for feedback to improve their competitions so they will continue to get top teams that do have the choice to not attend anymore, which will result in a lower valued competition, with all the consequences. A small example to illustrate the importance of having a good comp: this year there are only 2 former Delft team members to FSUK, 40 or so are going to Hockenheim. And not just because of the marginal travel time difference. In my opinion the importance of this discussion is therefore to improve the FSUK competition and not just complain negatively.

I was one of the organisers of the DUTch Open event and legally end-responsible for countless of testing days and potential workshop disasters, so actually I am aware of the safety and insurance issues involved (at least under Dutch law). I do also acknowledge the fact that FSUK is obliged to use the same marshalls every year and that their room for play is very small; I know they are doing their best job and they are in my opinion very capable and benevolent persons. This however does not mean improvement is not required or possible.

I don't agree with Techguy:" if the suspension is so fragile it cannot stand the car being moved in a hurry ", because that will be the case for almost any FSAE car as Bemo explains. Following from this I do agree with RenM:"No Car should ever be lifted at the A-Arms", this is one of the first things we learn new team members. Even our sponsors know this to protect our cars. The fact that the TU Graz right front suspension was destroyed by a design fault (or human fault(!)), does not allow for other parts of the car being destroyed due to arguments as haste, inability or simple not knowing what is and is not a good point to lift the car. I do not really agree with the argument of haste, especially not during AutoX: the FSAE rules provide measures to accomodate this properly, like re-runs and such. During Endurance this argument does make more sense though, but there it is still part of the game, like rain or oil...

It is not 'just' the TU Graz incident, as Bemo mentions. Apart from this I can recall a dozen of these kind of errors, also at the skidpad event. I think it is up to the FSUK organisation to involve teams or alumni and allow for a platform to discuss these matters in a sensible way and be clear and open in their communication towards the teams. If there is really no room for improvement, which I doubt strongly, then that is OK. But then at least be clear and open to explain the issues involved and the measures that are already taken (eg: has a proper instruction been carried out?) to create understanding.

Regards,

Stef de Jong
DUT09 Team Manager
DUT Racing Team Alumnus

[exFSAE]

Safety worker high priority - Get people and disabled cars out of the way of incidents.

Safety worker low priority - Worry about your precious a-arms

The end.

[thewoundedsoldier]

exFSAE,

A track worker lifting a car dangerously creates an unsafe condition for himself, the driver, and anyone near the car.

Slow is smooth; smooth is fast.

[exFSAE]

Valid point I suppose. But what's the worst that happens? They yield a bit?

I dunno. Shitty either way.

I'm more amazed at the brake incident.

[bob.paasch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stef de Jong:
Aw too bad for Delft and Ravensburg for not finishing what otherwise would be a close call. The Delft drop out was a broken starting relais, which caused the car not to start after the change (as from I have heard). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

From what I have heard from the team, we (GFR/Ravensburg) lost our cam sensor signal due to a faulty lead wire.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I say rematch in Hockenheim, including ETS and OSU. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

After two enduro failures (California and FSUK), we too look forward to FSG. Adding ETS, RIT, and Michigan to the grid will make it very interesting. They've all had a lot of time to test and tune.

Not sure what you mean by OSU, GFR is competing at FSG as Ravensburg, #10, with the blue car that was at FSUK. We are not shipping the orange car to Europe.

[thewoundedsoldier]

I also would like to know how the brake-test accident happened. I read the advisory and saw that the car actually hit a passenger car!?

If we are going to get on the organizers for presenting an unsafe condition, forget lifting a car by its a-arms, the tech inspectors need to step up the scrutineering on pedal components!

I don't mean to offend anyone as I clearly have no idea what happened or why.

[MH]

To comment on the incident with the Graz electric car: I was just coming to see my former team (Delft) in action and was driving up with a friend to the visitor's parking place, past the brake test area. He was looking at the Graz car and when we passed the brake test area he kept looking in the mirror so he saw the whole thing happening and started to shout. I looked in my mirror and just saw the car finishing what seemed to be a sideways roll and landing into the side of a Jaguar (driving slowly). The damage on the Jaguar was minor so that impact was not very hard. But a lot of car body parts were flying around and the rear right tyre rolled up to my car, but did not hit it. Within seconds the driver was out of the car, and the marshalls on scene.
Obviously the driver was shaken, but otherwise OK. I have to say that the marshalls did indeed react quickly and calmly by sending away all the spectators and taking care of the driver.

That was quite a scary moment, from what I understand the brake pedal broke and the driver was not able to stop the car. This is purely unofficial however and I'm sure the IMechE will publish the results of the investigation.

I'm glad nobody got hurt and now we know why the safety rules are so strict.

Congrats to Munich, they did a hell of a job.

cheers!

Miki Hegedus
Delft University of Technology
2001-2008

[RANeff]

Sounds like a crazy event, lots of things going on. If ImechE has lots of photos, where can we see them?

I have to agree both ways with the A-arm discussion. The arms are designed for no bending, but when you put them in that situation, they will likely break. I know ours would break if lifted by the A-arm itself.

However, the urgency to move an already broken car to safety can trump the ability to not hurt a car while extracting it from the course.

[thewoundedsoldier]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">However, the urgency to move an already broken car to safety can trump the ability to not hurt a car while extracting it from the course. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's important to keep a good perspective on the topic. We shouldn't be talking about urgency to clear the track vs. care taken with the vehicle. We should be talking about track marshals who know how to diffuse a dangerous situation properly and track marshals who don't. I've seen videos of people trying to put out magnesium fires with water. Ignorance is bliss.

If the marshal lifted the car by the a-arm, the a-arm broke, the car slammed into the ground, and the driver shattered his leg, how different would this discussion be?

[JR @ CFS]

The marshalls are quite experienced in dealing with normal racing cars which are in use at race tracks across the UK i.e. lifting them off tracks when incidents occur. Some would call these cars "weekend racers", but FSUK isn't really about that is it?

I do say the above with my tongue firmly in my cheek! I feel like there could be a few rule changes for next year concerning this.

Any and all feedback I'm sure would be greatly appreciated here;

fsfeedback@imeche.org

I do like the suggestion of an open forum or at least a public acknowledgement of each feedback topic and the "official" response.

[PETE-UK]

Information given about previous year actions of track workers have been followed up and I would hope that them getting in the way and not dealing with oil in the way you would want has been discussed.
Unfortunately the issue about where to handle the cars has not been brought up and may require some thought. For several years we have asked for a trolley for recovering vehicles and are still waiting. We can instruct in lifting but the priority is clearing the track and, where a car is already very "broke" man-handling is seen as an option without the facility to hoist onto a trolley.
We will follow up your views and ask again for the right equipment.

[Kevin Hayward]

This UK competition was the first time for me on the other side of the fence. I was very impressed with the quality of the competition and the marshalls. I did not see the brake incident. However I do know the marshalls at the endurance course were on the radio quite concerned for the safety of the students.

I also didn't see the a-arm incident but I have appreciated this time more than any other competition how many on the spot decisions must be made by the marshalls and other volunteers. It is definitely not possible to cover all incidents in the rules, and very easy to criticise after the event.

I think every team member needs to keep in mind that any failure in the car/driver could lead to unforseen problems. A car is not handled by marshalls unless something untoward has happened. Teams need to consider this in the design and running of their competition.

A-Arms are definitely not designed for bending loads, but on the other case do they need to be designed right at the limit? It is a choice that is made by the teams, and I would take the chance and suggest that more than one a-arm has been damaged by team members outside of a competition for the same reason.

Maybe this incident may cause a run of "No-Lift" stickers on a-arms or beefier arms and the same problem hopefully will never happen again. Not much of a consolation for the team.

I want to put out a big cheer for the team from Versailles, and Warsaw. Both first year teams that finished all events. Incredibly friendly and thrilled to be at the competition. Sometimes as a student fighting at the pointy end you forget what it is like for the rookies. The Versaille team came and thanked the marshalls and volunteers after their endurance run, and while I wasn't in that group I know it was well appreciated.

Kev

[murpia]

For the first time in a few years I watched one of the dynamic events at FS2010 (Endurance). I did not see every run but did see the Class 1A cars plus the fastest Class 1 group.

All in all I thought the marshalling was good. Cones were replaced promptly, the blue flags were used well and I witnessed no recovery issues. I did not see the brake test incident or the suspension failure mentioned above.

It is worth recognising 2 facts:

1) UK MSA accredication requires the use of experienced marshals
2) Outside of FS those marshals don't deal with many cars where the suspension etc. just breaks. At the typical club racing event cars either just spin or stop (in which case they are towed with the regulation towing eye), catch fire (in which case the marshals put it out), or crash (in which case they are recovered by lifting onto a flat-bed truck).

The FSAE rules make no provision for car recovery other than the rear jacking point. Clearly if a car stops with all 4 wheels on it can still be pushed. If the drivetrain seizes the jacking point can be used. If it suffers a failure such that it's dragging on the ground the marshals will have little choice but to recover it using their initiative - if that includes dragging it by the a-arms then so be it. A useful addition to the rules could be a designated, scrutineered, lifting eye. Without that a marshal can never lift a car off the ground, it is not a safe procedure. A towing eye could also be added to the rules, then a quad-bike or similar could be used to drag off a failed car. This could still cause significant damage to a chassis, especially a composite one.

How would you like to see cars recovered? What additional features should the rules include to accommodate this? How much disruption to an event would be acceptable to recover a car safely (red flags, double yellows, etc.)?

Regards, Ian

[RenM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> A useful addition to the rules could be a designated, scrutineered, lifting eye. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There is one already, the mainhoop http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[PETE-UK]

Main hoop sounds fine .. but we still only have our arms .. no hoist, no trolley.

I think the main hoop will work if we first turn the vehicle upside down.

If you can reccommend equipment ideal for recoveries (and where to get it) I will worry the organisers to make the aquisition.

[PETE-UK]

Regarding the Brake test incident - This is a first (and a second as another went into the side barriers later)
Don't want to over-react but we are already looking at what needs to be addressed.

Might be the increasing speed of cars taking test or just location. You can be assured that this will be taken very seriously.

[FS Alum]

I would recommend doing the brake test like they do at Michigan or FSG, with a single-lane, short run up to a stop box, and then a single lane to exit or re-queue. I saw some cars whipping around that massive (bigger than the play pen!) area and coming into the brake test in 3rd or 4th gear! At other comps you're barely into 2nd gear before you hit the brakes.

There are a few oddball things like this at FSUK...the noise test isn't done at the rules-specified RPM...the accel run is 75 YARDS...the tech guys almost refuse to accept anti-sub belts that mount to the same point as the lap belt despite the line in the rules that specifically allows this. If you're looking for suggestions I would say bring FSUK in line with the other competitions.

[murpia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RenM:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> A useful addition to the rules could be a designated, scrutineered, lifting eye. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There is one already, the mainhoop http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
True, but at the moment it isn't designated as a lifting eye so teams sometimes mount stuff there that could be damaged (GPS antenna etc).

If the rules state the car may be lifted from the hoop, they can also specify the minimum aperture etc. for the strap.

As to the correct equipment, there are a few telehandlers around at Silverstone and one of those would do the job well enough. More important is the red / yellow flag issue if it has to be deployed.

Regards, Ian

[murpia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PETE-UK:
Regarding the Brake test incident - This is a first (and a second as another went into the side barriers later)
Don't want to over-react but we are already looking at what needs to be addressed.

Might be the increasing speed of cars taking test or just location. You can be assured that this will be taken very seriously. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The FMEA for the brake test area is pretty straightforward:

Worst case failure: Car stuck on full throttle with no brakes or steering.
Response: Safe arrest of car.

Seems to me there should be a gravel trap at the end of the brake test area, certainly there are plenty of those at Silverstone.

Regards, Ian

[PETE-UK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FS Alum:
I would recommend doing the brake test like they do at Michigan or FSG, with a single-lane, short run up to a stop box, and then a single lane to exit or re-queue. I saw some cars whipping around that massive (bigger than the play pen!) area and coming into the brake test in 3rd or 4th gear! At other comps you're barely into 2nd gear before you hit the brakes.

There are a few oddball things like this at FSUK...the noise test isn't done at the rules-specified RPM...the accel run is 75 YARDS...the tech guys almost refuse to accept anti-sub belts that mount to the same point as the lap belt despite the line in the rules that specifically allows this. If you're looking for suggestions I would say bring FSUK in line with the other competitions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Already on to this
1-Brake test should be standing start and "just into 2nd" Think officials trying to help cars with poor acceleration but that should be the teams problem.

2-Acceleration is 75 METRES - Last year was a mistake but once first few have done it there is no changing it. Aas far as I know, this year was 75 M checked by event captain and timekeepers (unless you can tell be differently)

3-Don't know about noise and belts but will follow this up.

[Michael Royce]

Lifting a FSAE car with the Main Hoop is not really practical. The cars are not balanced as they are in F1 and we don't have a bunch of GRV's (Gravel Recovery Vehicles) around. The entry fees would not support the cost!! FIA can afford them but we cannot.

Thinking about it overnight, I have just made a suggestion to the FS (and other) organizers that all the competitions buy some furniture lifting straps, ($20 a pair at Home Depot here in the USA), or make some from lengths 2-3 inch wide seat belt webbing. Have a pair at each marshal/turn worker station. Then if the marshals need to move a disabled car in a hurry, or lift it onto a dolly/trolley, one strap is slipped under the car's chassis or body just behind the front wheels, and another under the chassis at the very rear, possibly around or under the rear jacking point, and 4 people lift the car. Hybrids may be a bit more difficult as they can weigh more. Cost effective, quick, minimum damage to cars.

Comments from the teams please.

By the way, what did you drivers think of the courses? I had a quick chance to walk the Sprint course on Friday, but could only watch the Class 1A and first few Class 1 cars during Endurance on Sunday. From what I saw, Adam Covell (Event Captain) and Rob Adaway (Clerk of the Course) laid out a nice challenging but flowing track. Really smooth too, except for the re-entry from the new run-off area at Brooklands, over the FIA kerbing between the Brooklands and Luffield corners. Silverstone did do a little grinding on the tips of the kerbing and laid some blacktop to try and smooth it over. It did not appear to slow the cars down but it was a concern. Good viewing too.

[Michael Royce]

FS Alum,
The Noise Test is done by an MSA scrutineer. He has the official test speed numbers by engine type (I gave it to him) and asks what engine the teams run. From the numbers I saw on the returned Tech Forms this year, and from some data he gave me last year, the numbers are what I would expect. This indicates that the tests are being done correctly.

The Acceleration times this year, with the winner at 3.75 seconds and quite a few teams right around 4.0 seconds, are what I would expect from a "grippy" track at 75 metres. Who cares anyway, as long as it's the same for everyone?

[MH]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
The Acceleration times this year, with the winner at 3.75 seconds and quite a few teams right around 4.0 seconds, are what I would expect from a "grippy" track at 75 metres. Who cares anyway, as long as it's the same for everyone? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure the lightweight single cylinders won't mind if the distance is less than 75m, their gain is in the first meters http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Thrainer]

The autocross and endurance course was really good, I think. Challenging and entertaining. Some fast drivers pushed the limits and spun.

In Class 1A, we had lots of traffic jams, sometimes four cars were lined up behind each other. Once, we overtook three cars in just one overtaking line and on another occasion, a slow car went off course and over to grass to let us overtake. The traffic cost us up to 30 seconds per lap.
One solution would have been to run both classes together also on Sunday. Then direct competitors might not run together, but each car can run with others with the same pace.

It was an excellent idea to have an award ceremony on Saturday and the 1A static events on Thursday, it both contributed to a pleasurable event.

Seriously, I would like to see the sustainability event replace the cost event in all competitions. It is much less tedious to make and more useful, fairer for the teams and less work for the organizers.

We can lift our cars with the main roll hoop. Not sure if it works with two lifting straps and four people, if you can't really pull straight up.

I hope that Eindhoven, Hertfordshire and Graz will come back stronger to FSE.

Regards,
Thomas
AMZ - ETH Zürich

[Luniz]

The track setup was very good this year, smooth, challenging and fast at the same time. Completely different to what there will be in Germany unless they change last year's track. The bump from the runoff area back onto the track was a bit rough but still acceptable I think. Our cars need to have at least 2" of suspension travel, and that is where this comes into play ;-)
I only think the additional tarmac was not such a good idea, because instead of smoothening the bump it just came off and made the bend after the bump really slippery.
The marshaling effort has really seen improvement over last year, the flags have been waved correctly (at least what I have seen) and the marshals were keen to replace any knocked over cones as quickly as possible. I had the impression that they payed much more attention to what happened on the track than last year.
I can not comment on the lifting/towing incident as I did not see what happened there.

So after all, a well organised event and lots of thanks to the IMechE and all the voluntary staff!

Best regards,

[FS Alum]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Michael Royce:
FS Alum,
The Noise Test is done by an MSA scrutineer. He has the official test speed numbers by engine type (I gave it to him) and asks what engine the teams run. From the numbers I saw on the returned Tech Forms this year, and from some data he gave me last year, the numbers are what I would expect. This indicates that the tests are being done correctly.

The Acceleration times this year, with the winner at 3.75 seconds and quite a few teams right around 4.0 seconds, are what I would expect from a "grippy" track at 75 metres. Who cares anyway, as long as it's the same for everyone? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can guarantee that the tests were not done as per FSAE rules and this has been the case for at least the last two years. They were done at 75% max. RPM.

I knew from logged data that the accel run was short last year, but I was misinformed that it was 75 yards again this year, so apologies for that. That aside, your statement about "who cares? it's the same for everyone" is invalid because teams design their final drive ratio with the accel run in mind (at least mine did). Also, as MH points out, it changes the relative performance potential of singles vs. 4's across the competitions, which doesn't seem to be logical. My point is that this is an engineering competition, if the students have to follow the regulations, the competition organisers should as well.

[RenM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FS Alum:
I can guarantee that the tests were not done as per FSAE rules and this has been the case for at least the last two years. They were done at 75% max. RPM.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
They are done as the event handbook says, which differs from the official fsae regulations.
the rpm should be lower then in the fsae regulations. so be happy about it because its easier to pass noise.

[Dr M]

The problem with lifting a car by hand via any method is the possibility of back injury. In the UK there is no lower limit below which it is safe to lift.

However, I do not know of any situation where a car has lost wheels from both front and rear, so perhaps a requirement that there should be a front jacking bar? Other options would be a (custom designed) trolley or perhaps a pallet truck?

Whatever you end up with, lifting the Monash car in a hurry would be problematic...

[Michael Royce]

FS Alum,
Your point about the organizers should follow the regulations is well taken. Touchee!

As far as the lap and sub belt mounting is concerned, no one brought this up to either me, and I was there at Scrutineering all the time, or to the best of my knowledge to Andrew Deakin, the chief of FS Technical Scrutineering. Certainly, there are always issues with belt mounting, but a common mounting point was not one of them, as far as I know.

RenM,
I have just noticed that the 2010 FS Event Handbook does say the Noise Test is a sweep from idle up to 3/4 maximum engine speed, rather than FSAE Rules that say an average piston speed that equates to 914.4 m/min (3000 ft/minute). To sweep the speed is correct. Now the speed in the FSAE Rules is ROUGHLY 3/4 of the maximum piston speed of a normal road car engine, but was written the way it is so that high revving (short stroke) engines have to run at a higher test speed than low revving (long stroke) engines, such as single cylinders. Geoff Deacon, the MSA Noise Test Scrutineer, DID have the official FSAE list. So the two procedures may or may not have resulted in different speeds. We will sort things out for next year so that we are consistent.

[murpia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Thrainer:
In Class 1A, we had lots of traffic jams, sometimes four cars were lined up behind each other. Once, we overtook three cars in just one overtaking line and on another occasion, a slow car went off course and over to grass to let us overtake. The traffic cost us up to 30 seconds per lap. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think this is stated a little unfairly.

Yes, due to multiple slower cars on track the traffic did bunch up, I think that possibly twice in the whole Class 1A endurance did a queue of 4 cars actually occur. In that circumstance the blue flag procedure is difficult to manage, so some delay was inevitable. Other than that the blue flags seemed to me to be used pretty well.

If you can post your laptimes we can look into your statement that traffic cost you 30s per lap...

I thought the Herts car should have pulled off sooner, it was obvious it could not continue very far. Do you think cars should be black flagged if they are going too slowly? How slow is too slow?

Hopefully for 2011 the Class 1A cars will integrate into Class 1, to better 'seed' the performance.

Regards, Ian

[blister]

Concerning Class 1A integration into Class 1:

I don`t think that the general performance of Class 1A will soon raise to Class 1 Levels. Class 1A is also about "other" concepts as just being bloody fast on a tight cone course. So it should remain "open" also for cars with a big focus on drivetrain efficiency and economy.

In total the traffic costed us around 110 seconds. After the sad and smelly DNF of Eindhoven we knew that we would be the fastest. But also the most efficient? The strategy was to use only half of the power and the driver had to coast all the slaloms, drive really smooth. Without the overtaking we would have run laptimes of around 64s, which was roughly around 5-6s off the pace. I cut 4s because of economy driving and look at the Class 1 results. So we would have been around place 2-5 compared to class 1.

Generally Class 1A and the electric Class at FSG have different challenges for the future:

Class 1A:
- Cost of batteries/complex drivetrain
- Many "research" projects competing against pure racers
- Not many teams switching completely to Class 1A --&gt; B-Team, non optimal Chassis/Suspension

FSE:
- Cost of batteries.
- Many 2010 teams are "Class 1 alumni" teams --&gt; Recruiting problems in 2011
- in 1 or 2 years the power must be limited, otherwise the tracks would be too dangerous.

Overall it was a very nice event and i think the track marshalls improved. Highlight was for me the TU Fast munich car, which just is a awesome Chassis/Suspension package!

We look forward to see many electric cars run at FSE and fear already their power advantages :-/

[JasperC]

Congratulations to Munich for their first overall victory. That's a really quick car they have there.

As mentioned earlier by Stef, we retir in endurance because our starter relay broke (it was simply an of-the-shelf Yamaha component). We were really devastated as Ravensburg was already out and we were looking at a victory by about 70 points.

We're looking forward to FS Germany now, where it will once again be very hard to beat the Global Formula guys. Congratulations to them for winning the design event in Michigan, California and now in England as well.

I feel the level of the competition was a bit higher than last year as Ravensburg, Delft, Munich, Stuttgart and Monash were really top of the game. With 4 of these teams competing in Hockenheim together with top teams from the US, Canada and Australia, FSG will be really tough as well. Looking forward to it. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Jasper Coosemans

DUT Racing Team - TU Delft

2007-2008 Cost&Manufacturing event
2008-2009 Suspension Engineer
2009-2010 Chief Drivetrain

[MalcolmG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JasperC:
With 4 of these teams competing in Hockenheim together with top teams from the US, Canada and Australia, FSG will be really tough as well. Looking forward to it. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately I don't think you'll see any Australian teams there this year, as there dont appear to be any on the registration list on the FSG website

[thewoundedsoldier]

Does FS-UK have an event program anywhere? I'm not trying to be lazy, I just can't find anything on the website. It'd be nice to see some rough specs of the cars in one place.

[Schmidt]

Hey,

I really enjoyed this year's event, and have to say that the organization really put a huge amount of effort in to improve the event, and it really showed!!

As for the marshals, the guys who are sitting on the other side of a big lake complaining about guys complaining about the marshals clearly have no idea what they are talking about! Not having a whole lot to do during the event, except for the driving, I was talking to a few of them and that didn't really help. I'm sorry to have to say this, but they really are not the guys you like to run your event. Arguing that they are volunteers is avoiding the point that they are inadequate for the event. It probably sounds very harsh and all, but that is my view on it and within our team we also have a few mechanics and the rest should not be handling the car at the event.

I do not want to say that I feel unsafe at all, it's just purely from a competitive standpoint. For me it is acceptable that it can not be changed under the license, but guys who are defending them on the forum really need to look at it carefully!

Also the track that has been laid out is probably the best one I have seen, and Sam's commentary was awesome!

Also for the incident with TU Graz' suspension failure, that happened right in front of me. Watching the marshals removing the car was not pretty! What bothers me most is that both the driver and team guys were explaining how to lift it but the marshals were waving them off. A similar scene happened at the end of the endurance where a wheel came off a blue car, and one of the marshals snapped the rods one by one...

Besides that we had a good time, and I enjoyed the feedback session from the judges too.

Thanks for the best FSUK event yet!
Erik

DUT Racing

[JasperC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MalcolmG:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JasperC:
With 4 of these teams competing in Hockenheim together with top teams from the US, Canada and Australia, FSG will be really tough as well. Looking forward to it. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately I don't think you'll see any Australian teams there this year, as there dont appear to be any on the registration list on the FSG website </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
My bad, I would have sworn UWA was registered but maybe they have had to pull back? Pity though...

[TMichaels]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by murpia:
I thought the Herts car should have pulled off sooner, it was obvious it could not continue very far. Do you think cars should be black flagged if they are going too slowly? How slow is too slow? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The rules define this as being slower than 1.33x the laptime of the fastest car of your heat.

Regarding UWA:
They were registered but unfortunately they had to withdraw.

Regards,

Tobias

[murpia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TMichaels:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by murpia:
I thought the Herts car should have pulled off sooner, it was obvious it could not continue very far. Do you think cars should be black flagged if they are going too slowly? How slow is too slow? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The rules define this as being slower than 1.33x the laptime of the fastest car of your heat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
OK, but that only works if you actually complete a lap once your car slows. The Herts car just dropped to a crawl and all the other cars bunched behind it, it never made it back round another lap. Without sector times triggering the black flags, this is always a possibility.

Regards, Ian

[Hatschi]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...Once, we overtook three cars in just one overtaking line and on another occasion, a slow car went off course and over to grass to let us overtake. The traffic cost us up to 30 seconds per lap... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You had much traffic, but that's ridiculous. Not even near to 30 seconds loss every lap.

Run 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN_Kbes4-4o)
Run 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4D6fQrZYfw&annotation_id=annotation_912002&feature=iv)

[Tickers]

After the two accidents in the brake test area, I wonder why the brake test isn't conducted on a rolling road. The car must be able to slow the rollers from a 30mph to a standstill in less than a certain time.

The current test is imprecise, doesn't represent reality and allows for potentially dangerous situations. Who wants to find out their brake pedal doesn't work when they're going 30+mph? It happened to us twice, but thankfully our brakes had already slowed the car (and the drivers remembered to steer).

[Thrainer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by murpia:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Thrainer:
In Class 1A, we had lots of traffic jams, sometimes four cars were lined up behind each other. Once, we overtook three cars in just one overtaking line and on another occasion, a slow car went off course and over to grass to let us overtake. The traffic cost us up to 30 seconds per lap. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think this is stated a little unfairly.

Yes, due to multiple slower cars on track the traffic did bunch up, I think that possibly twice in the whole Class 1A endurance did a queue of 4 cars actually occur. In that circumstance the blue flag procedure is difficult to manage, so some delay was inevitable. Other than that the blue flags seemed to me to be used pretty well.

If you can post your laptimes we can look into your statement that traffic cost you 30s per lap...

I thought the Herts car should have pulled off sooner, it was obvious it could not continue very far. Do you think cars should be black flagged if they are going too slowly? How slow is too slow?

Hopefully for 2011 the Class 1A cars will integrate into Class 1, to better 'seed' the performance.

Regards, Ian </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dear Ian,

it was not my intention to flame the organizers, just state some observations. We were taking laptimes with mobile phones and didn't write them down. I meant the slowest laps were around 30 s slower than the fastest one, not on average.
It would be nice to have the official laptimes online, maybe also of the cars that didn't finish.

If you want to watch our endurance run, just search for "endurance run uk 2010" on Youtube.

One thing that could be improved is to have a second blue flag right at the start of the overtaking lane. It happened that there was still a large gap between cars where the blue flag was, but that gap shrunk dramatically till the overtaking lane.

But again, I'm not complaining. It didn't matter how much time we lost, as all our competitors were on track at the same time and we got maximum points.

Regards,
Thomas

[Thrainer]

You can find more than one hundred pictures at our website: http://www.amzracing.ch/amz/ga...il.ort?folder_id=843 (http://www.amzracing.ch/amz/galleryDetail.ort?folder_id=843) (hope this will get approved quickly)

[murpia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tickers:
After the two accidents in the brake test area, I wonder why the brake test isn't conducted on a rolling road. The car must be able to slow the rollers from a 30mph to a standstill in less than a certain time.

The current test is imprecise, doesn't represent reality and allows for potentially dangerous situations. Who wants to find out their brake pedal doesn't work when they're going 30+mph? It happened to us twice, but thankfully our brakes had already slowed the car (and the drivers remembered to steer). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You'd need a 4WD adjustable wheelbase rolling road with the same grip rollers as tarmac, that's why...

Regards, Ian

[MH]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
You'd need a 4WD adjustable wheelbase rolling road with the same grip rollers as tarmac, that's why...

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That can't be expensive http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[DMuusers]

I'm still sorting out the some 500 pics I took at the event, give me a day or so and they'll be on my facebook.

Cheers

[G.Arce]

Hi all,

this was my first experience in Formula Student and I am still amazed by everything I learnt and experienced. I am part of the TECNUN Motorsport team, car #19 with a gold chasis.

Being in the box with teams such as UAS Graz, TUG, Chalmers, Surrey... was a great experience. I will post latter on my feelings and how the event went for us (with pics!) but I just wanted to thank everyone for making all this possible.

[Stef de Jong]

Hi all,

concerning brake pedal failure / a-arm failure / random failure on the brake test area I have some things I'd like to share, since a rolling road in my opinion would not be an option. I'd also like to make the comment to the organisers that failures at brake test areas, like pedals, steering wheels and a-arms being ripped off should be noted and communicated to the Design Judges; in my opinion no team that breaks something at the brake test (or has to perform large modifications after first scrutineering) should win design, per default, unless a very good reason is provided... It is a symptom of a flawed design and inadequate test cycle, therefore the prototype does not meet the design challenge.

About breaking stuff: The past years our team always performs a so-called 'Bokito-test' (named after a dutch gorilla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokito_(gorilla))) or 'Japie-test' (named after a very very large team member named Jaap). Before the car even drives its first meters the car is being subjected to a maximum loadcase test: ramming the steering wheel into the stops, jumping while standing in the cockpit and slamming the brake pedal with max peak-force. Then the car is checked, and the first driving fun can start safely. Miki, perhaps you can fill me in on the maximum brake pressure so far?

Some version of this test could be included into scrutineering, where the scrutineering chief tries to break the car (while off course following a pre-described protocol that all teams are aware off...). Even though the test cannot simulate all the forces, it does say something... This to improve safety at any dynamic (noise, brake, but also test-track / endurance) event. Furthermore there could be some kind of regulations for the brake pedal (or are there?). I can imagine it must be hard to potentially have your car broken by scrutineers, but better by them then while driving 100 kph, right?

Greetings,

Stef de Jong
DUT09 Team Manager
DUT Racing

[Tickers]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by murpia:

You'd need a 4WD adjustable wheelbase rolling road with the same grip rollers as tarmac, that's why...

Regards, Ian </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very few FSAE cars are AWD, so you could test one axle at a time on a roller. This is how brakes are checked in an MOT test.

[murpia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tickers:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by murpia:

You'd need a 4WD adjustable wheelbase rolling road with the same grip rollers as tarmac, that's why...

Regards, Ian </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very few FSAE cars are AWD, so you could test one axle at a time on a roller. This is how brakes are checked in an MOT test. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The MOT checks that the brakes are capable of a certain minimum torque, and that they are balanced side to side. The FSAE requirement is that all the wheels of the car can be locked simultaneously, on tarmac.

They're not really the same test at all, when you think about the physics.

Regards, Ian

[flavorPacket]

And which test is more relevant to small formula style braking systems?...

[Mike Cook]

I'm a little confused http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
Almost all of the brake stop events I have seen are so short you can barely get above 30mph. Maybe I'm naive, but I just fail to see how even a catastrophic failure could be very dangerous in this situation given that there is plenty of run off room (which there should be!). I don't think we need any crazy test equipment, just a decent amount of run off room and fairly low speeds.

Maybe I'm missing something?

--On Edit--

I can definitely think of a few events where there was just not really much runoff room (and sections where the course workers are probably closer to the vehicle than they need to be) but still, this is more a failure of implementation rather then a failure of design.

[Tickers]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by murpia:
The MOT checks that the brakes are capable of a certain minimum torque, and that they are balanced side to side. The FSAE requirement is that all the wheels of the car can be locked simultaneously, on tarmac.

They're not really the same test at all, when you think about the physics.

Regards, Ian </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right, they're not the same test; an MOT style test is considerably more consistent and useful.

[Bemo]

I don't think that the brake test as it is has to be changed. It is a simple test which is easy for teams to simulate before the event as no equipment at all is needed.
I would agree with Stef that some additional rules about the brake pedal itself should be considered. For example a maximum force it has to withstand (like the 890N for the headrest). And during scrutineering a scrutineer sits into the car and pushes the brake pedal as hard as he can. It should be designed in a way that no normal person is able to brake it.
Normally I consider the brake test quite safe. Speeds aren't that high normally. I don't know why the Graz driver accelerated that hard, but if you're only accelerating to 30km/h or something and there is enough space it should be safe even if the brake pedal breaks.

[D Collins Jr]

Wow, I hadn't read this thread at all, and now I've seen the whole thing, and of course, there are comments to be made.

First, congratulations to Munich. I've been impressed with that team since I first saw them at Michigan in 2008.
I'll preface my next comments by warning you that it's going to kill you to find out that the dirt track, oval racing crowd I associate with in the States has essentially all of the same problems you're describing. Interestingly, the solutions are the same too. When something like this a arm business happens, there's no good answer for the promoter/organizer to provide. If the car doesn't get lifted off of the track, other teams would be here bitching about how the track wasn't cleared, or even if the car was off, that they were getting preferential treatment and the corner workers couldn't focus on the track. Of course, the opposite happened and a broken car was broken worse (unless I'm misunderstanding what happened, in which case, I apologize wholeheartedly). My thoughts here are the same as they are regardless of the venue: NO ONE here is making any money from the outcome of this or the running of the event, and we are all in FS for the experience, right? Regardless of trophies and accolades at the end of it, the defining part of this is the camaraderie and experiences along the way. Anyone care to disagree? Obviously, everyone would prefer to win and succeed publicly, but that can't always happen, and when it doesn't, we need to be mature and not devolve into this kind of fingerpointing. Next up is a response to the reactionary call for rules changes. How many cars have gone through brake tech without issue of failure vs how many have broken horrifically? I'm not sure of exact numbers...but this is definitely the first time this has happened. Don't make a rule over it! That's stupidly reactionary, and does nothing but cheapen the experience of future participants by removing a level of research and decision making that needs to be done. I agree with some standardization (like the filler necks for next year, that will help logistically with the event and eliminates a tertiary safety concern), but create minimum dimensions and specs for every part? No thank you. That competition already exists, and it's called Baja.

Finally, I've seen many a dirt track die in my time. They go out of business. The typical reason is being addressed in this thread right now. The drivers, owners, fans, etc get upset at the owner/promoter (or organizer, in our case) for the way the show is being run. Maybe they aren't being safe enough, or they're letting someone cheat, or the show takes too long, or the pay sucks. In any case, they boycott. Stop showing up. If you disagree with the management of a race, then don't go. And if you don't disagree with the way that this event is being run for years as some have claimed, then you're not angry enough to go bitch about it in public. Make suggestions for improvement in the event, don't go, or shut up. Those are the choice, quite bluntly.

All that being said, I hope that all of the wonderful things I've read about FSG over the years are true, because that'll make my next few weeks much more enjoyable.

[Thrainer]

Ironically, it was announced during the faculty advisor reception (two days before the accident) that there will be new rules for next year which are concerning the minimum strength of pedals and their attachment. And the template (as I understood only the one for the cockpit opening) will be reduced in size.

Thomas - AMZ

[Tickers]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Thrainer:
Ironically, it was announced during the faculty advisor reception (two days before the accident) that there will be new rules for next year which are concerning the minimum strength of pedals and their attachment. And the template (as I understood only the one for the cockpit opening) will be reduced in size.

Thomas - AMZ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It would be good to see this in writing from the organisers. There have been a number of times where new rules have been promised but never delivered.

[bob.paasch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by D Collins Jr:
All that being said, I hope that all of the wonderful things I've read about FSG over the years are true, because that'll make my next few weeks much more enjoyable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like how the FSG organizers "seed" the pits. Dave, you've probably noticed that Oklahoma is front and center. As one of the few (and maybe the only) full aero cars at FSG, I'm sure your car will be getting a lot of attention.

[Hub]

First entry in class 1 for our team and a great experience.
It was not easy because we start with an ECU problem. Also the first drive of the car and driver was during the brake test but we manage to finish all dynamic event.

An extract of our run:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DWMXNkpx5Q

[DMuusers]

It took me a bit longer than I expected, but finally the photos are online. Just a few disclaimers:

1. If you want a photo deleted send me a pm (either here on on facebook) stating with a link to the photo why you want it deleted. IF you've got a good reason (which I will decide upon) I will delete the photo.
2. If you want an HD version of a specific photo send me a pm either here or on facebook. I will reply as soon as possible.
3. If you want to use one of my photos for commercial use (websites, news articles or any other kind of media), send me a request before you use it. I will reply if you can. (Don't worry, 99/100 times you can http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

Now, have fun with the photos and if you want to receive an instant update for the pictures I will take at FSG, send me a friends request http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Part one: http://www.facebook.com/#!/alb...4&id=100001079321504 (http://www.facebook.com/#!/album.php?aid=16594&id=100001079321504)
Part two: http://www.facebook.com/photos...5&id=100001079321504 (http://www.facebook.com/photos.php?id=100001079321504#!/album.php?aid=16595&id=100001079321504)
Part three: http://www.facebook.com/#!/alb...1079321504&aid=16596 (http://www.facebook.com/#!/album.php?id=100001079321504&aid=16596)
Part four: http://www.facebook.com/photos...7&id=100001079321504 (http://www.facebook.com/photos.php?id=100001079321504#!/album.php?aid=16597&id=100001079321504)
Part five: http://www.facebook.com/photos...8&id=100001079321504 (http://www.facebook.com/photos.php?id=100001079321504#!/album.php?aid=16598&id=100001079321504)

Enjoy!

[Kevin Hayward]

Hubert,

It was a joy to scrutineer your car. You guys had an impressive attention to detail and basic mechanical design. Both Stefan and I had little doubt the car would finish all the events.

An absolutely amazing effort for your first year, and I am sure with the positive attitudes of you and your team that you will improve quite dramatically in the next few years.

Well done.

Kev

[Hub]

Thanks for this comment. With our ECU problem on Thursday we were thinking that our competition was over. But after hard worked we manage to resolved the problem and make all the scrutening on Saturday with dynamic event.

I hope we will improve not only for the next few years but also this year. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Steve Yao]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tickers:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by murpia:
The MOT checks that the brakes are capable of a certain minimum torque, and that they are balanced side to side. The FSAE requirement is that all the wheels of the car can be locked simultaneously, on tarmac.

They're not really the same test at all, when you think about the physics.

Regards, Ian </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right, they're not the same test; an MOT style test is considerably more consistent and useful. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would consider it a travesty in a design competition to require a 150kg car have the same kinetic energy dissipation rate as a 250kg car which is what you are suggesting with a standardized roller. It may not even be physically possible given the difference in normal load each of those cars would have on the tires.

Follow on to that, if it requires 13" tires and 400+ lb to stop the roller in time; such a requirement could force everyone into 4-cyl cars.

Going further, the current low-speed US brake already test does not account for the increased grip aero cars generate at speed. A roller sees no difference between an icebox and a McLaren as long as they weight the same.

The roller would have to be calibrated for axle load and CG height of every vehicle specified at some speed and/or rate of deceleration....b/c you would also be specifying the front rear brake balance.

[Freddie]

Hi all,

I'm in a new team trying to start up a Formula Student effort at our university, and I'm on the hunt for the programme from FSUK 2010. If anyone has a link or file, please contact me.

[JasperC]

Hi Fredrik,

I assume you have already found the event handbook on the FSUK website?

www . formulastudent . com/Libraries/Documents/FS10Handbook_LR.sflb.ashx

Cheers,
Jasper Coosemans
DUT Racing Team 2008-2010

[Freddie]

Thanks Jasper, but yes I have found it and it isn't the document I'm looking for.
At least for 2009, there was an event programme containing brief descriptions of all participating teams (or, more interesting, the cars), and that's the kind of info I'm looking for. Was that even handed out this year, and, if yes, where can I find it?

Edit: I realised I'd might be the only one to actually understand what I said above ... My english is too bad nowadays. Anyway, here is the 2009 version of the document I'm searching for:

www . formulastudent . com/Libraries/Results_2009/FS09Programme.sflb.ashx

Does anyone have the 2010 version of this?