New European Competition

[V2 - Italy]

I am pleased to announce that the ATA (Automotive Technical Association) is organizing
the first FSAE event in ITALY, as an additional FSAE European event,
under the official FSAE rules.

This event will be between the 15th September and the 15th October 2005 and will be supported by the main Automotive Italian Group...

If you are interested stay tuned and send me an e-mail to subscribe to the event mailing list.

I will post more details during the next week.

[V2 - Italy]

I am pleased to announce that the ATA (Automotive Technical Association) is organizing
the first FSAE event in ITALY, as an additional FSAE European event,
under the official FSAE rules.

This event will be between the 15th September and the 15th October 2005 and will be supported by the main Automotive Italian Group...

If you are interested stay tuned and send me an e-mail to subscribe to the event mailing list.

I will post more details during the next week.

[V2 - Italy]

The FSAE Italia Committee has defined the Event program of the Formula SAE Italia Event
that will take place from 22 to 25 September 2005 in Italy.

The track area will be chosen during the next week.

The first official webpage is on-line and more info are coming soon.

The official link is:

http://www.ata.it/formulatemp

Stay tuned

[V2 - Italy]

This is the Formula ATA official link:
http://www.ata.it/formulaata/

Some important informations are on-line.

I hope to meet many of you in Italy this September. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[V2 - Italy]

The name is changed (I don't know why) but it seems that the competition will be really interesting.

Here are the rules:http://www.ata.it/formulaata/Rulesf

These are the competition events and their points:

Static tests:
Presentation 100
Design evaluation 200

On-track tests:
Weight Measurement 50
Acceleration 50
Braking 50
Steering Pad 50
Pursuit competition 200
Endurance 300

Total 1000

-So there will be no cost event (no cost report http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif).
-The dynamic events are increased to six http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif, without fuel economy, but adding 3 more events.
-The car weight will be evaluated to give 0 (the heaviest) to 50 points (the lightest).
-The will be a deceleration test, measuring the negative acceleration during ten meters braking from 60/80kmh.
-The pursuit competition http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gifwill be like a "race of champions", with two cars on the track and the winner will compete again until the final race. For the first time there will be a direct competition one on one.

The other dynamic events are a little bit different from the Formula SAE ones, with different length or radius.

What do you think?

If you would like to be informed, you can send an email to the ATA organization.
http://www.ata.it/formulaata/Contacts

[RiNaZ]

Formula "race of champions" huh?! should be interesting. I love the idea of racing in a soccer stadium environment.

What's the rooms over there cost like per night? how bout food and all?

[James Waltman]

I started reading through the rules and was very surprised. This is not a "Formula SAE"� event like we know it. It is similar but there are some huge differences. Why can't the ATA just adopt the same rules the rest of the series uses? It looks like a car could be built to these rules and not be eligible or competitive at the other events throughout the world. The strategies for scoring points would need to be dramatically different.

I started taking notes and keeping track of some of the major differences and giant loopholes and I figured I would share them here. Anyone else care to share their observations.

My thoughts on Formula ATA rules
Only 13 Pages!! This is just not enough.

2.1 Admitted competitors
Graduated after January of 2004 are still eligible.

3.1 All cars are new cars –
Even if they are a several years old...

4.2 No spectators in the area –
Are the pits closed as well? Is it closed to spectators like Detroit is?

5.2 Scrutineering
No tilt table test listed
No Tech inspection list

5.5.1 Drivers
Looks like you can have you ace driver do everything but one leg of the endurance. I think this makes it more of a driver's event –
lame.

5.5.3 Weather
Trying to level the playing field during changing weather conditions – this could get ugly if people don't agree

5.5.5 Weight Measurement
I am a big believer in weight reduction but to score it is silly. Give points to the fastest car not the lightest.
Must drive in and drive out of weight area – seems like a good idea

5.5.7 Brake Testing
So I guess the strategy is to be on the brakes before you pass the first gate. I can see a situation where a team is able to stop from 60km/h in less than 10 meters. Then what happens?

5.5.8 Steering pad
Just a circle. Can run in the same direction each time. Sound like fun for the circle track guys. ˜Why would you want to turn right?'

5.5.9 Pursuit Competition
What's wrong with the normal autocross? Time allowed for quick repairs could be nice.

5.5.10 Endurance
About 25km long.

5.5.10.2 Pit Stop During Endurance Event
This could be good. No more than two cars allowed to stop at the same time in the pit – what if you need to but there are already two cars there.

6.4 Engine
Allows 620cc engine. Are there any suitable production engines that fall between 610cc and 620cc?

6.4.10 Transmission Shield
Must be metallic but it doesn't have requirements

6.5 Suspension
"Cars must be fitted with sprung suspension. There must be movement of the wheels to give suspension travel in excess of any flexibility in the attachments."�
This seems to allow less suspension travel than FSAE and disallow flex joints. "In Excess of any flexibility"� sounds like a judgment call.

6.10 Chassis requirements
Does not specifically outlaw composite or aluminum roll hoops

[V2 - Italy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by James Waltman:
I started reading through the rules and was very surprised. This is not a "Formula SAE"� event like we know it. It is similar but there are some huge differences. Why can't the ATA just adopt the same rules the rest of the series uses? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know the answer but I suggest you to send an email to the Formula ATA General Manager Dr.Eng.Luciano Pera
luciano.pera@crf.it
that will be happy to answer to your questions, and it should be interesting if you can share these infos in the forum.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It looks like a car could be built to these rules and not be eligible or competitive at the other events throughout the world. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It seems, but for the Italian teams the keypoint is that our Formula SAE car must be eligible to compete in Formula ATA.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">3.1 All cars are new cars –
Even if they are a several years old... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
May be they would allow to compete to the largest number of teams.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">4.2 No spectators in the area –
Are the pits closed as well? Is it closed to spectators like Detroit is? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

4.2 Spectators
A free access to a panoramic area will be provided for spectators during track action days.
An accreditation is needed to enter the pit area. I think that some hundreds of spectators could visit the pits.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">5.2 Scrutineering
No Tech inspection list </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I suppose that it will be released during the next weeks.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">5.5.3 Weather
Trying to level the playing field during changing weather conditions – this could get ugly if people don't agree </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The weather shouldn't be a problem during the Italian September, usually the temperature is between 20?C (min) to 30?C (max) and the sun is high in the sky.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">6.5 Suspension
"Cars must be fitted with sprung suspension. There must be movement of the wheels to give suspension travel in excess of any flexibility in the attachments."�
This seems to allow less suspension travel than FSAE and disallow flex joints. "In Excess of any flexibility"� sounds like a judgment call. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think that flex joints are allowed and the flexibility in the attachment is referred to kart behaviour.

Anyway, for any question I suggest you to send an email to the Formula ATA General Manager and he will reply in a while.

[V2 - Italy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RiNaZ:
Formula "race of champions" huh?! should be interesting. I love the idea of racing in a soccer stadium environment.

What's the rooms over there cost like per night? how bout food and all? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It isn't a soccer stadium http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif but a real track. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
The food will be good, you can bet it, if you like italian food. A catering service will be ready in the paddock building.
I don't know the room cost per night, but I think it should be lower than in USA and in UK.
The FATA organization is looking for some accomodation at low cost.

[syoung]

Looks very interesting, and Warwick is looking closely at how we might be able to take part.

I don't understand why the Formula ATA managers didn't refer to the SAE rules for the technical requirements and just publish specific variations where relevant.

The idea of the pursuit competition is an exciting one, although it seems harsh that some slow cars will get through to the last couple of rounds when other much faster ones will be knocked out in the first round. I'd also agree with previous comments about the low number of drivers required and the awarding of points based on weight. If the judges decide to use the 'weather' rule things could get a little disputed!

I hope the Formula ATA managers do give consideration to the points we're raising. Looking forward to it already (if we can afford it) - hope to see you there! Thanks to Firenze for keeping us updated.

[little miss bossy]

Is this an SAE-sanctioned event??

[V2 - Italy]

Actually the Formula ATA seems to be an indipendent event, that could become an official event in the future.
Anyway all the FSAE cars are admitted to the competition; don't be scared by the 13 pages rules http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[V2 - Italy]

Here some interesting news:
-the Formula ATA Organizational Committee has announced that during the event, every team will receive the lunch tickets for free.
-the daily accommodation cost will be no more than 20,00 Euro, and the Committee is going to reach an agreement with some hotels to lower this cost.
-every team member will have the event shirt for free.

The Technical Committee is really impressive: judges from Formula 1, IRL, Rally, WTCC... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
Visit the link: http://www.ata.it/formulaata/Teccommittee
Do you know any of them?

[Didier Beaudoin]

Mauro Forghieri http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

That's a very experienced judging comitee you have overthere. It adds a lot of credibility to your event, that's for sure!

[BIG G]

cant wait to get over there and kick all you bitches asses up and down the big boot.

[SkidRow]

Hello to everyone in the wonderful Italy!

We are all really excited about this competition here! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.We are just a step away from the Italy!(Can see the ships leaving for there within a distance of 100m from my home!).
Ok.Enough with the emotional side!I am the Team Leader of the new Formula Student vehicle of the University of Patras,Greece.We are preparing for the Class 2 entry of the new vehicle in the UK competition this summer.I would like to ask if there is a provision for Class 2 & Class 3 in the ATA event,as those are an indispensable part of the UK competition,making it really attractive to new teams & also increasing the exciting potential of aplying new technologies to the competition.

Wishing all the success to the new event!

[V2 - Italy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SkidRow:
I would like to ask if there is a provision for Class 2 & Class 3 in the ATA event </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There will be a Class 3 for sure and may be a Class 2, too.

[V2 - Italy]

Here some important news about the FATA event.

ATA is going to reach an agreement with SAE to include the Formula ATA in the official Formula SAE event, as a second European Event, so the event will be under the Formula SAE rules.

To finalize this agreement two members of the ATA committee will be present at the Formula SAE Competition in Detroit.

A new feature will be available to the teams, to show their work worldwide:
a car presentation (5minutes) will be video recorded and shared through the official website, to be downloaded. It should be a good way for the teams and their sponsors to increase the visibility.

[jonno]

V2,

Do entrants all need to be part of ATA, or does local memberships count (eg UK teams can use IMechE member status at Australia and FSAE rather than becoming members of SAE as well)?

[syoung]

If Formula ATA will be run as an official event, does this mean the static and dynamic events will now be changed to be the same as the American competition?

What about entry rules, e.g. will all cars still count as "new cars" and eligible for Class 1?

[V2 - Italy]

One of the Italian competition judges will be present at the Formula SAE competition.
When he will come back to Italy (next week), your questions (rules, dynamic events, Classes...) will have an answer.

Good luck to all the FSAE team in Detroit.

[V2 - Italy]

Now it is official.

The Formula ATA will be the second European FSAE competition, named Formula SAE Italia.

It means that the event will be under the Official FSAE Rules, with the same static and dynamic events, plus the pursuit event as an additional event.

I think that all cars (Class 1 and Class 1-200) will compete in the same Class, as it was in UK until 2003.

The new deadlines are on-line. www.ata.it (http://www.ata.it)

I hope to see a lot of you in Italy, with or without your car.

[SkidRow]

Hello to everyone out there,
How many teams have already registered?Is the Class 3 portion of the competition going to happen?Hope someone replies in time for the registration deadline because we are really interested in competing.

[markocosic]

I appreciate the Italian attitude to health & safety is quite the same as its Northen European neighbours, but don't you think there needs to be some supplemental safety regulations if you want to turn a pursuit (race) event in addition to the (time trial) SAE events?

IMO if you're actually racing I'd want proper impact attenuators on the front of cars, crushable side pods and a semblance of protection to stop an engine/transmission beign shunted into the small of your back?

Contact is almost certain at some point, and I wouldn't fancy taking responsibility for the consequences - legal or moral...

[Denny Trimble]

The "australian pursuit" they ran at the SVSU GP was very safe, in my opinion. Cars start on opposite sides of the track; if one car gains 10 seconds on the other (30s laps), they have "caught" their competitor and win, the race is stopped. This prevents cars from getting close to one another. In my opinion, the endurance event in Detroit is more dangerous. There have been several instances of cars spinning while being closely followed, cars being let out of the passing lane while fast cars are still coming down the straight (us in 2004, locked brakes and nearly a collision), etc.

[syoung]

Marko, the inital regulations for Formula ATA (as FSAE Italia was initially called) specified an event like Denny is talking about, i.e. with two cars starting half a lap apart and racing over two laps (more laps in the final stages).

The rules also specified that the quickest car after the inital dynamic events would race the second quickest, the third would race the fourth, etc. This seems a little unfortunate as the 2nd, 4th and 6th quickest cars are likely to be knocked out early while e.g. the 11th and 13th quickest cars should at least make the second round! It does, however, further limit the chances of one car catching another on course. I imagine there would be a rule that the race would end if that happened, although you'd hope the driver behind would realise he was half a lap ahead and back off slightly!

I think Denny has a point in saying this is actually safer than standard endurance, which itself is fairly strictly policed to minimise the chances of contact occurring.

[V2 - Italy]

I think safety is the key point of the pursuit competition. I agree with Denny and Simon.

I can assure that there will be a Class 3, but I don't know how many teams have already registered.

Daniele

[markocosic]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Denny Trimble:
The "australian pursuit" they ran at the SVSU GP was very safe, in my opinion. Cars start on opposite sides of the track; if one car gains 10 seconds on the other (30s laps), they have "caught" their competitor and win, the race is stopped. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

May bad - I had completely the wrong idea as to what the race would be. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

Humble pie in the oven... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Will watch with interest - though can't see how it fits with evaluating the cars (not drivers) at the minute.

[James Waltman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">From: http://www.ata.it/formulaata/news/
ATA and SAE have reached an agreement, so FSAE Italia will follow SAE Rules! We'll mantain the pursuit competition </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They took down the original rules. Of Course I have them here (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/Rules/2005%20Italian%20ATA%20Event%20rules.pdf).

I made a list of some of the differences we could exploit. I already shared some here. Since there won't be a competition under those rules I figured I could share the rest of them now.

More thoughts:

No wheelbase limit

No ground clearance rules

No brake over travel switch

Not much restriction for side impact

"Drive by wire"� throttle not banned

Sound check must be under 110dba at only 6000rpm

No limit on Wing size or placement

No limit on wheels and tires that can be used – gokart style ok

Does not specify that you can't throttle after the restrictor.

Displacement bump to 620? –- Ahh Yes, The Ducati Monster 620 (618cc)

They didn't ban sucker cars!!!!!
(vs FSAE: 3.7.1.6 Ground Effect Devices – Prohibited No power device may be used to move or remove air from under the vehicle except fans designed exclusively for cooling. Power ground effects are prohibited.)

I started thinking about something like:
200 pounds
Forced Induction / 60 liter plenum / throttle after restrictor
Go Kart tires
Maybe fans and wings like a combination of the 2E (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/Junk/chaparral_2E.jpg) and the 2J (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/Junk/chaparral-2J.JPG)
Maybe wings like Paul MacCready's Gossamer Albatross (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/Junk/GossamerAlbatross.jpg) – you could run the other cars off of the track.
Maybe just a Quarter Midget (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/Junk/quartermidget.jpg)
Maybe – it doesn't matter anymore

I should really be studying for finals...

[ss_collins]

I hope to attend this event as part of the mags italian tour. Should be good and I'll be fascinated to see the pursuit event.

[Savage Heart]

Hope Denny is right and that rules and organization is serious enough.We have already secured sponsorship for kart wheels & tires,the car's wheelbase is shorter than 1525mm,AWD is used, the rear wing is not protruding from the sides of the tires.Hope our work is not in vain.

[kwancho]

wow. that competiton should be ridiculous! sounds like a good time.

[syoung]

Alex, just to clarify ('Savage Heart' was joking... I hope) - FSAE Italia is running to standard FSAE rules. The competition was initially set up to be run under these rules, but it wasn't an officially sanctioned SAE event (although I believe one or more of the organisers is an SAE representative in Italy). The relevant division of SAE in America heard/was told about it and refused permission for their (copyrighted) rules to be used, so a fairly sketchy 13-page equivalent document was drawn up, of which technical regs were just over three pages total! After some negotiations, SAE came back on board and now the technical regulations, and most of the other rules, will be exactly as FSAE.

[kwancho]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by James Waltman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">From: http://www.ata.it/formulaata/news/
ATA and SAE have reached an agreement, so FSAE Italia will follow SAE Rules! We'll mantain the pursuit competition </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They took down the original rules. Of Course I have them here (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/Rules/2005%20Italian%20ATA%20Event%20rules.pdf).

I made a list of some of the differences we could exploit. I already shared some here. Since there won't be a competition under those rules I figured I could share the rest of them now.

More thoughts:

No wheelbase limit

No ground clearance rules

No brake over travel switch

Not much restriction for side impact

"Drive by wire"� throttle not banned

Sound check must be under 110dba at only 6000rpm

No limit on Wing size or placement

No limit on wheels and tires that can be used – gokart style ok

Does not specify that you can't throttle after the restrictor.

Displacement bump to 620? –- Ahh Yes, The Ducati Monster 620 (618cc)

They didn't ban sucker cars!!!!!
(vs FSAE: 3.7.1.6 Ground Effect Devices – Prohibited No power device may be used to move or remove air from under the vehicle except fans designed exclusively for cooling. Power ground effects are prohibited.)

I started thinking about something like:
200 pounds
Forced Induction / 60 liter plenum / throttle after restrictor
Go Kart tires
Maybe fans and wings like a combination of the 2E (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/Junk/chaparral_2E.jpg) and the 2J (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/Junk/chaparral-2J.JPG)
Maybe wings like Paul MacCready's Gossamer Albatross (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/Junk/GossamerAlbatross.jpg) – you could run the other cars off of the track.
Maybe just a Quarter Midget (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/Junk/quartermidget.jpg)
Maybe – it doesn't matter anymore

I should really be studying for finals... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

so these AREN'T the real rules? oh. way for me to NOT read the first sentence.

[V2 - Italy]

Formula SAE Italia

15 team registered from:

-Greece 1
-Portugal 1
-Germany 1
-USA 1
-Austria 2
-UK 4
-Italy 5

...more places available http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[jonno]

Are any of the participating teams listed anywhere? What are the other 3 UK teams, and how are they getting there (if any of them are reading this?)

[V2 - Italy]

Here is the list

http://www.ata.it/formulaata/formulasaeit


http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Jeff The Pyro]

wow... looks like we're the only non-european team

[syoung]

Hi Jonno,

We're still looking into it, but probably towing a trailer down, with some of the team driving down and the rest possibly flying. I'm looking forward to a little drive down through France and over the Alps!

Jeff - see you there!

[jonno]

sounds like what we plan to do - a few are road tripping with the car taking in as many "race" sites as possible en route (nurburgring, reims, monaco, stelvio pass etc) the rest are ryan air-ing it out there

[mangel83]

I was reading about the pursuit event, it seems to be pretty nice, but I was thinking of something that would be more exciting in my opinion.

I don't know how many of you guys follow the world rally championship, but if you've seen it, you'll get right away.

It's a head to head race, it's not a closed circuit per se, there are two identical layouts, one lane next to the other, not straight lanes like 1/4 mile racing, but very intrincate and with lots of turns, "zig zags", and stuff, maybe half a mile, or even a mile long.

To me it appears very safe and it would be great to see some very close photo finishes at the finish line.

Manuel S�nchez

[jonno]

Yeah they had a quality example of this at the Greek rally this weekend just gone... they converted the Olympic stadium into a track http://www.acropolisrally.gr/en/show.php?cat_id=57&page_id=590 (http://www.acropolisrally.gr/en/show.php?cat_id=57&amp;page_id=590)

[Jeff The Pyro]

that would be cool except you'd have to build some sort of bridge or overpass... unless you just wanted to have the courses cross at some point and have a flagman making sure nobody collides

[V2 - Italy]

The Formula SAE Italy programme is defined.

You can download it from our link:
http://www.pcm.unifi.it/formula_student/ITA/Events_05.htm