Problems shipping by air

[Frank]

I'm not sure if this is urban myth or truth.

I remember someone saying there is a certain electrical component that doesn't like experiencing the depressurization experienced during airfreight?

Is this true?

Frank

[Frank]

I'm not sure if this is urban myth or truth.

I remember someone saying there is a certain electrical component that doesn't like experiencing the depressurization experienced during airfreight?

Is this true?

Frank

[alfordda]

I think that was brought up in the 2002 Design Finals. I want to say it was Leeds that had a problem with their coils. I can't seem to find the audio file I have to check that though.

[Lyn Labahn UW-Madison]

My understanding was that in 2002, Leeds had a problem with their ignition coils after they had been depressurized during the flight over. I don't think they were able to attempt a single dynamic event that year.

[Frank]

i found this random quote on google

"Encapsulating materials have coefficients of expansion greater than those of metals.

If a winding has a high packing factor, it has little give in it, and at low temperatures the encapsulant shrinks tight over the winding, and at airfreight temperatures (-40?C), can crack open under the tensile stresses induced."

[Joel Miller]

Bit off topic, but something worth considering. Make sure you pack your car in a crate rather than on a pallet. Save yourself $1000's - allows the airline to stack more cargo on top. Expensive lesson we learnt.

[Eddie Martin]

We haven't airfreighted since 02, but when we did there were problems.
Are you shipping as hazardous goods? If so all batteries must be mounted to the car and all fluids and liquids should be drained.
We carried our ecu and i think coils on board as hand luggage, but that really makes the security people pay attention to you.
I would definitely build a strong crate to put your car in. The freighting people aren't gentle with things. We took this box to the 02 and 03 USA Competition and by the time it got back to Oz in 03 we just cut it up, as the forklifts they use to move it around really destroyed it. Make sure it is forklift safe and has place for the forklifts to pick it up and move it around.
http://130.130.24.178/2003/images/may11/may_11_026.jpg
http://130.130.24.178/2003/images/may11/may_11_033.jpg

If you have the option I would definitely sea freight. We have done this in 03 and 04 and think it is a much better option. You lose about 2.5 months with the car but you need a lot of time to get things organised. Going overseas with a car is a very big task.

[Frank]

thats a big crate... wow


thanks for the advice

Frank

[Charlie]

You should see our FSAE-A crate: Too bad we gave it away for scrap, it could withstand a nuclear blast http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif and could have been used several times over. No place to store it though.

[roadrunner]

2.5 months!!!!! We couldnt cope with that, not just the emotional tie but the shear loss of development and construction time in our already over stretched time table!!!! And the emotional strain of not having our baby near us at all times!!!!!

Airfreight all the way but remeber to keep a proper inventory. Lost some rather weird things on the way back from the states, the list includes:

Fire extinguishers (that we took with us)
Work bench
A bizarre collection of tools that were ticked off going into the box
And a whole host of cheap crappy bits like boxes of cable ties!!!!!!

[leclercjs]

Hey roadrunner,

what do you think of the service you got from John Deller. We were supposed to ship the car by sea, but since ETS had major problem with their engine after overheating in Detroit, the only choice we had (because us, ETS and UQTR decided to ship or fly the the cars together) we decided to go with him since he had offered is services and as now, is service (flying in and out of FS the cars) is cheaper than I expected and cost around 1200 Can$ more than shipping it to England. Can you give me your feedback!!

[Charlie]

We flew our car to Australia and boated it back. The round trip took about 3 months. Its true that it is a burden to the team, especially not having a test bed, or many of our tools at the shop. Its very very difficult to do two competitions, and it nearly caught up with us last year. But also, you learn a lot by doing 'double duty', and its extremely rewarding. Make sure you know what you're getting into.

We came very close to making a second competition this year, but many of us are graduated and our new younger team really needs as much time as they can get. A shame, I would have loved to drive the car again http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, but if we aren't competitive it wouldn't be worth it.

[Eddie Martin]

Our new box for 04 USA was a lot bigger. It weighed in with car and spares at 1550 + kg. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Going to an overseas competition isn't something that should be taken lightly. It is a huge undertaking to get a car and spares plus all the team members needed to the other side of the world. You will learn a lot and have a chance to develop your car more but it really hurts the next team in having a vehicle and tools away for so long. Also getting the man power needed can be difficult.

The financial side is also very important. We have always shipped our car with little or no money in our bank account. ($3000 in the red in 2003 http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) We have then had to find the majority of the sponsorship from outside sources. If the money hadn't been found we would have had to pay out of our own pockets, which would be a stretch, or leave the next team in debt.

It is a great experience going overseas but it is not easy. I would definitely travel overseas if you can.

[-]

Eddie Martin,

I saw you guys from UOW were throwing out tires and such in the dumpsters at Detroit. How much stuff like that did you bring over that really wasn't needed as spares. You said your crate weighed in at 1550 kg (3500 lbs), but howmuch wasn't really nessesary. I am just trying to estimate weights and dimensions for taking our car over to Formula Student in 2005.

-Mark

[Big Bird]

Mark,

For what it is worth, we have come over to the UK with an airfreight crate of 435kg (chassis, spares, tools, 8 wheels) and a seafreight crate of 45kg (engine). Will let you know next Monday if we survive or not....

It certainly helps if you can align yourself with a local team, especially if they are considering a reciprocal trip to your home event.

Cheers,

[Eddie Martin]

Mark / -

The reason we dumped all those tyres was for customs reasons.
When goods leave a country and go to another one it needs a carnet, or equivalent, (passport for the car) to make sure you aren't importing it and it means we don't have to pay duties and taxes. The carnet has a list of everything in the container and their values.
We get our tyres in america rather than shipping them to oz and back over. So we always put in our box a couple of sets of old formula ford tyres or what ever we have lying around so when we leave australia we have x sets of tyres and when we re-enter oz we have x sets of tyres.

We build our box knowing it is going sea freight, eg. going to be bashed around by fork lifts, and so weight isn't super important. After all they load the ships to with in 100 tonnes. We probably had 600kg of stuff and a 900 kg box, yes it was very strong. We bring a full set of tools, lots of spares, pit tent, work stands, suspension set up platform, load cells, spare engine, the kitchen sink etc. Off the top of my head engine 60 kg, car 205 kg, setup stuff 50 kg, tools 70 kg and at least 150 kg of spares etc.

If you are going overseas i wouldn't skimp on spares and stuff, after all there is a lot of sponsors money on the line and if you break something and don't have a spare or a way to fix it your going to look pretty stupid.

I think the rmit guys took there a-arms and stuff off to save space. We put the car in whole and then fix up bits and pieces on arrival. I know the GT guys and I think Auburn guys, just took there cars out put oil, water and petrol in them and drove, a pretty cool effort. It depends on your situation.

If i were you guys come to the australian competition instead of the uk one. I'd spend 2 or 3 months developing the car, this will really help the team in the future and mean you will be more organised. Then put it on a boat and forget about it for two months. But you don't want to get into the cycle we have of starting to design your car after the second comp. It only gives you 6 months or so to design, build and test your car which puts a big strain on the team.

Hope to see your team at the 2005 oz comp. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[-]

Eddie and Geoff,

Thanks for the advice and comments about shipping a car. At the moment we are starting to build a car for the 2005 Detroit event and planning on taking our current car from Detroit 2004 to formula student in 2005. To follow up with on the comment that Eddie made, we will have plenty of time to work on our 2004 car to work out the bugs and develop the car for 2005 over in England.

As for the shipping crates, we have luckily got a deal with a company near us that ships sea containers over to just outside of Birmingham once a week and is willing to throw our car in for a small fee to cover the paper work. Supposedly the only take 3-5 days, which should save us a ton of time. Right now the company is just looking for some general weights and dimensions for how much space they would need to save for us and I appreciate the figures you have given me.

As for the throwing out of your tires in Detroit, that was what I thought it was, just trying to save a few bucks on shipping and import duties, smart thinking.

One of the last hurdles that I have yet to figure out is the regulations for sea shipping oil, gasoline, and things of that nature. I know for a fact that you can't ship these via air, but if you guys have any input as to having to remove these for shipping by sea or not, it would be greatly appreciated. If they can't be shipped via sea, we will have to send a guy over a day or two earlier to get these or hopefully start a working relationship with a local team.

Thanks again for your help, and I perhaps I'll run in you Geoff in a few days.

-Mark

[Denny Trimble]

I'm not sure if F-Student has different rules on second-year cars, but I believe a car is only a "first year car" for its first event and the following two, i.e.:

US '04, UK '04, AUS '04
or
UK '04, AUS '04, US '05
or
AUS '04, US '05, UK '05

[Big Bird]

Mark,

Firstly, in regard to Denny's comment I'd believe you would have to enter your Detroit 2004 car as a "Series 200" car in the UK for 2005, as it would be more than one year since its first comp. You would have to check with Stephanie or Brian at IMechE to confirm this.

I will say here and now that I really like the idea of the Series 200 class, (i.e. second year cars that have undergone significant development). Most cars seem to be barely completed in time for their first comp, with little testing. Much can be learnt in the development process that occurs as the car is driven and tested over a few months. It's the fun part of the project too. It is for this reason that an overseas comp is so rewarding - the original design can be refined to something near where it should be, and you get a bit of time to enjoy the fruits of your labour.

Anyway I'm waffling. For the sake of your shipping purposes, our crate measured around 2.6 metres long by 1.2 metres wide by 1.2 metres high - roughly. That is for a car with suspension removed. Believe it or not Disco drew up a full CAD model of our crate, so if you want plans let us know. It's based on the UoW one, but ours is a first year crate so it should score better in Design...

We shipped a bit of oil over here in our spares, no problems as yet. It's all available here though. I don't know why you would want to ship gasoline, I'd say you would be better off getting fuel over here and testing with it before the event. Of course, there are issues shipping anything to do with fuel, oil, batteries etc via airfreight, it sends the cost through the roof.

Hope this helps. Look forward to meeting you this weekend Mark.

Cheers

[Eddie Martin]

Sorry to get into a pissing competition but our crate was 2.9m long, 1.8m wide and 1.75m high. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Did you put material densities in your model though Geoff, i know we did. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

To back up geoff's comments solvents, flammable anything and batteries cause problems. I'd drain all the fluids from the car and not carry any solvents, spray cans or fuel with you. Oil and batteries should be ok if you pack them well.

[Big Bird]

Yes we did have material densities. We needed them for the FEA. Torsional stiffness approx 3500Nm/deg, first non-rigid body mode of 73Hz (bending). http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Next year we go carbon, apparently Delft has come up with a crate so light that it is going to revolutionize this competition.....

Cheers,

[Eddie Martin]

I thought Delft were just taking their car on as hand luggage. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

We are thinking of going for a revolutionary nomex honeycomb and cast iron construction with cardboard stiffeners through out the structure, should be good. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Eddie

"Don't let university get in the way of your education."

[-]

"I will say here and now that I really like the idea of the Series 200 class"

I completely agree with you on this. The problem is convining the advisors here that its the right thing to do. We can talk shop in a few days if you have some time.

Oh a totally off topic, do either of you know some good bars or anything else in and around Brunthinorpe or Leicester? I sure as hell won't want to be looking at fsae cars all day.

-Mark

[Charlie]

Well maybe nobody wants a devil's advocate but I couldn't disagree more with the comments about allowing 2nd year cars. I can see how it would be nice for a team looking for an additional competition, but in general, there are no 2nd year cars in Detroit because there are limited entries and its simply not fair to teams that spend the time and resources to build a new car. It also cuts down on half-finished cars, because teams know once it competes it can't have another go.

If there are lots of competitors with unfinished and untested cars, well that is the competitiors problem in my opinion. I prefer the annual new car rule because it really teaches students to set realistic goals and work in an extremely tight timeline.

[Eddie Martin]

I think the 200 series rules could be really good to develop and learn about a car further and it could be a way to boost numbers at the Australian competition but getting one car to the event is a big enough drama let alone two.

I agree with Charlie that the new car rule is good at forcing teams to work in a tight timeframe and be realistic with their goals. It gives you fantastic experience at working under pressure.
Look at Cornell they turn up with a developed and tested car and an organised team and they walked away with it. Amazingly professional.

[Disco]

Hi Guys,
The dimensions of the RMIT crate were 910mm x 2520mm x 1140mm. I even designed the crate parametrically so you can change it through solidworks for different size cars if you guys want it? Rough weight was about 75kg for the crate. Geoff forgot to mention that practical testing showed torsional rigidity of 2987Nm/deg. We put the error down to wood impurities.

Back to the serious stuff, I'm just wondering how Eddie and Charlie would feel if you were only able to enter a cars once in ANY competition. Meaning both you guys (Charlie for AUS 03 and Eddie for USA 03 and 04) would have lost your advantage. It's pretty much the same thing as the 200 series, you just have a shorter timeline.

Cheers
Steve

[Charlie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Disco:
Back to the serious stuff, I'm just wondering how Eddie and Charlie would feel if you were only able to enter a cars once in ANY competition. Meaning both you guys (Charlie for AUS 03 and Eddie for USA 03 and 04) would have lost your advantage. It's pretty much the same thing as the 200 series, you just have a shorter timeline.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like I said I do understand the 200 rules being a good thing if you would like to attend an additional competition. But in general, I don't like them. I would also debate the issue that it is an 'advantage' to have an older car. Now I don't contest that a car with more testing and tuning time will be better than the same car without. But a new design should also offer some advantages. Our 2003 car was fast in FSAE-A, but it was also pretty heavy and big and seemed a bit outdated next to some of the Aussies. Our 2004 car was much much improved, and far much more competitive than our 2003 machine.

So I guess what I am saying is a newer car should always be an advantage assuming your team has done its job. Which I admit is a difficult task.

As far as building a new car for every ~4 month competition, that would be not much fun, but perhaps you would learn more? And end up with a better product in the end? Don't sign me up though. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Eddie Martin]

I understand your point steve but i think it would stop any cars going overseas instantly. All the competitions are better and richer for having overseas teams in them.

The only way we can get to America is to compete in the OZ competition. The America comp is the biggest and hardest by quiet a way over the other comps and the only practical way to get there is do the OZ comp and get exposure and therefore sponsorship from that. One car a year is hard enough.

There are definitely advantages to having already been to a competition and then taking it to another but there are also a lot of draw backs that I have spoken about in other posts.

Most teams only have one competition a year which makes it very hard if something goes wrong in the enduro. A lot of the comments from teams who had problems in the enduro are testimony to this. I think having competitions like the svsu gp, where you get a chance to drive the car more, are great. You can relax, just drive the cars, look at other cars and meet the other teams, which is fun.