Formula Student 'Second Year' vehicles

[ecn12]

Hi,

If a vehicle fails scrutineering one year, and is entered again the next year, does it count as a 'second year' entry (therefore not allowed)?

A reference would be good.

Thanks.

[ecn12]

Hi,

If a vehicle fails scrutineering one year, and is entered again the next year, does it count as a 'second year' entry (therefore not allowed)?

A reference would be good.

Thanks.

[Zac]

This sounds like a question for the rules committee of the competition you plan to enter.

[Michael Royce]

ecn12,
Zac is correct that you need to contact the organizers of the event that you wish to enter. However, in general, a car is considered to have "entered" in an event if it has been "on site", or if it has entered any "Event". This includes scrutineering. So your car sounds as though it would be considered a "second year car". If you have failed scrutineering it sounds like you need to make some significant changes anyway.

[ecn12]

Hi,

Thanks for your input. I've contacted the organisers and am awaiting a response.

Can any of you shed light on this specifically for Formula Student UK?

Thanks again.

[JulianH]

Rule A6.9.1 of the FSUK Rules states that Second Year cars are not allowed.

If you check the FSAE Rules it says: (A6.5)

For the purpose of defining first, second and third year cars, a competition “year” is any consecutive run of the Series, i.e. Formula SAE Michigan, Formula SAE Lincoln, Formula Student, Formula Student Germany, Formula SAE Italy, Formula SAE BRASIL, and Formula SAE Australasia held within a roughly 12 month period counting from the event in which a vehicle first competes.


In my opinion, this clearly states, that a frame that took part in e.g. the design event of FSUK 2011 is not allowed to compete in FSUK2012.

Where are you guys from and at which competition did you fail scrutineering?

[ecn12]

Hi,

If a vehicle fails scrutineering, it is not recognised for the dynamic events, therefore it is equivalent to only having entered the design event.

It's this ambiguity that I'm wanting to be addressed.

[JulianH]

I doubt, that the organisers will feel the same way.

Part C, FSAE Rules 2012:

ARTICLE 1: STATIC EVENTS AND MAXIMUM SCORES
The maximum possible scores in the static events are:
Technical Inspection No Points
Cost and Manufacturing 100 Points
Presentation 75 Points
Design 150 Points
Total 325 Points


In this, the technical inspection IS a static event. Which means, if the car "starts" the technical inspection, the car is "competing in a static event"...


Once again I would like to ask the question:

Where are you guys from and at which competition did you fail scrutineering?

[ecn12]

In that case wouldn't the car be competing in the static events only, therefore it's as if the team did not enter the dynamic events?

[BeunMan]

I don't have the rules at hand, but wasn't there a BIG penalty if the vehicle 'copied' things from last year?

[JulianH]

@ecn12.

Yes, static events only. But an event still.

I don't see a distinction between static and dynamic events when it comes to the "second-year-car-rule".

@Tristan,

there is a up-to 50 points penalty in the design event if you copy too much. I guess in Austraila, UWA got 50 points deducted for entering a second-year-car.

But in Europe you are not allowed to enter a 2nd year car so therefore the design penalty would be the smallest problem...

I don't want to point fingers but I guess they will try to disguise the fact that they entered the car in FSUK 2011 and will enter the car 2012 again, therefore they don't want to talk to the organisers and ask anonymously... Please prove me wrong, ecn.

Cheers

[NickFavazzo]

50 point penalty and exclusion from design finals in Australia so the actual penalty can be higher if you have a "design finals" worthy vehicle...

[ecn12]

But the second vehicle rule is only applicable to vehicles that were entered previously.

I am likening this situation to those teams who strictly only enter the dynamic events as they can't produce a vehicle within one year.

I can't see the difference between this situation and the one in question, except that one team has tried and failed in scrutineering (for which points are not awarded in any case). I have submitted this question to the organisers.

[JulianH]

If you come to the scrutineering and say "Hey, this is our car" than the car ENTERED an event and from this second on it is a first-year's-car until one year from this moment on.

That's all I can read in the rules.

It doesn't matter if you compete in the dynamics, it doesn't matter if you complete an event, it doesn't matter if you score any points.

But if you ask the oraganisers, they will give you an answer.

See you in Silverstone.

[ecn12]

That's plausible. But if you 'only' fail the noise test say, then you have to fabricate the car from scratch for the next year?

It sounds almost to stringent to be realistic. I think your interpretation is plausible, but without a clear indication in the rules, I am waiting for the officials to answer.

[JulianH]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ecn12:
That's plausible. But if you fail the sound test say, then you have to fabricate the car from scratch for the next year?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes.

[ecn12]

A link would be good.

[JulianH]

I'm sorry, I can't provide any data. Due to the fact, that 2nd year cars are forbidden in Europe, every team is building their car from scratch every year, even if they fail scrutineering.

Maybe some of our Australian friends have some facts...

Are you guys from India or so?

[ecn12]

Second year cars are forbidded as you say, but I'm not convinced either way as to whether vehicle is deemed 'second year' in this scenario.

Does failing static tests mean that you have to produce a new car for next year, or that you can simply fix it and try again the next year?

[JulianH]

If you check the FS Question Database on formulastudent.com, a judge answered, that a car must have a new built frame to enter the competition.

I think it would be against the indent of the competition if you could try to pass scurtineering with the same car over and over again.

For one last time: Where are you guys from and why are you asking this question (which basically is telling you if your car can compete or not) 1 week from Silverstone?

[Dunk Mckay]

I think everyone has been pretty clear about you needing to specify the details of the competition(s) you entered last year and where you are hoping to compete this year to give you any more info. Lacking that the answers so far have been as clear as they can.

To the best of my knowledge it's primarily the chassis that counts for the FSUK event, although don't take my word for it check the rules and ask the organisers, as has been said.

I would also ask what you mean when you say you have "fixed" last years car. If you're sapce frame has had to be heavily modifed one could argue that you have redesigned the chassis and just re-used old materials to save costs.

The main challenge of the competition is to design and build a car in a year, everyone has to do it. Yes some teams have many years of experience and designs to take inpiration from. But when you're starting from scratch you have to accept that there is a learning curve involved and that each year your car design should get better and better. At this early stage building a working AND legal car is an achievement in itself. Taking a car that wasn't quite up to scratch and fixing it enough to pass scrutineering the next year isn't much of a development. A team should use the opportunity to analyse the design and fix any performance or reliabilty flaws it might also have, improve the design.

Budget may be of concern, but surely last year, if you were expecting to compete fully, you would also have been expecting to have to build a new car for the following year. If the finances are not there to build a new car every year then I might suggest running a two year program. This would allow you to present a much better, working and legal car every two years, instead of a rough roud the edges vehicle that might not stand up in scrutineering every year.

But you can't just intentionally enter each year in the hope that you might pass scrut., and then if you don't just change some small things until you do. That is the height of laziness and bears no respect for the intent of the competition or the teams that, win or lose, go away and build pour their hearts and souls into building a new car ready for next time.

I have no idea what your situation, so please don't feel targetted by the above rant. Unless of course that is exaclty what you've done in which case please do. Not reading the rules properly or asking for clarification on them much much earlier is no defense it's just further proof of laziness. Now go and plan your 2 year development schedule.

Again I have no idea what your situation is (please specify!!!) so don't feel like I'm having a go at you, because I'm really not. Unless you are guilty of those crimes in which case I really am.

*rant mode off*

PS: *mini rant mode on* For anyone else reading this that is guilty of those crimes I am also having a go at you as well. yeah, even you in 2013 and 2014 and every year after that!

[TMichaels]

I can only speak for FSG, but as long as a team got any feedback (no matter if in Scrutineering, Design or whatever), then we consider the vehicle to have been entered into the event.

[ecn12]

Hi Tobias,

Thanks for that.

So in your case, teams which strictly only enter the static events (i.e. don't bring a car) are allowed to bring a vehicle the next year, whereas teams which bring a vehicle that is scrutinised in any way are considered as entering a first-year vehicle?

[TMichaels]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So in your case, teams which strictly only enter the static events (i.e. don't bring a car) are allowed to bring a vehicle the next year, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. Teams without a car are not allowed to participate in FSG.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">whereas teams which bring a vehicle that is scrutinised in any way are considered as entering a first-year vehicle </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do not understand what you are trying to say with that.

[ecn12]

@Tobias: Thanks.

I've received definitive answer from the FS UK Technical Rules board (through FS online question database):

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Hi,

If a vehicle fails scrutineering one year, and is entered again the next year, does it count as a 'second-year' vehicle and therefore is not allowed?

Thanks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Hi,

Provided you do not complete any of the static or dynamic events then your vehicle will be classed as a first year vehicle in 2013.

Regards, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[JulianH]

Did you come to Silverstone last year, and didn't participate in ANY static event?

I think only MADI did this in 2011 and if I'm correct, they weren't at the event at all...


Any way I think it's kind of strange, that the rules for being a first-year-car are not the same for FSUK and FSG...

[TMichaels]

The rules are the same, but the interpretation seems to be different.
But I could be wrong on this matter, since I am not a specialist for the "second-year vehicle" rule. Frank deals with these questions http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Therefore it is always a good choice to ask the rules committee of the respective event as he obviously did.