What brand Mill/Lathe

[DanVaan]

Hey Guys,

Our school is going to be purchasing some new equipment for a new Student Vehicle Projects workspace. It has already been decided that we will be getting a mill, lathe, welder, and workbenches. The only problem now comes to be what type of machines we will get.

I was hoping to get your opinions on what you have used/are using now for your workspaces. Also, are you running manual machines, manual/cnc, or full cnc?

The faculty member in charge of this workspace wants to go full CNC and was looking at the Novakon NM-200 for a mill. I wouldn't mind a cnc mill, but i think a manual lathe with the ability to do cnc work on would be ideal.

For a welder, we have already decided on the Miller Diversion 165 since we already have access to a MIG welder.

Basically, i just want to get a feel for what other teams are running/would like to run so that we can get machines that will handle whatever we will be machining.

Thanks,
Daniel Vaandrager
University of Alberta
Team Leader

[DanVaan]

Hey Guys,

Our school is going to be purchasing some new equipment for a new Student Vehicle Projects workspace. It has already been decided that we will be getting a mill, lathe, welder, and workbenches. The only problem now comes to be what type of machines we will get.

I was hoping to get your opinions on what you have used/are using now for your workspaces. Also, are you running manual machines, manual/cnc, or full cnc?

The faculty member in charge of this workspace wants to go full CNC and was looking at the Novakon NM-200 for a mill. I wouldn't mind a cnc mill, but i think a manual lathe with the ability to do cnc work on would be ideal.

For a welder, we have already decided on the Miller Diversion 165 since we already have access to a MIG welder.

Basically, i just want to get a feel for what other teams are running/would like to run so that we can get machines that will handle whatever we will be machining.

Thanks,
Daniel Vaandrager
University of Alberta
Team Leader

[RacingManiac]

We don't get CNC stuff for Toronto's shop for student, so can't help you there, but I love their old, 30+ years old Hardinge lathe....runs buttery smooth with an awesome collate system....

[ibanezplayer]

I think the real question is what can you and your other students run?

If people have experience running manual machines already, then go that way, but if no one has any experience, it's sort of a moot point. Personally I would keep CNC's away from student areas, enough tools get ruined and damaged by students, even when they are in complete control.

Its also much easier for a novice to pump out a simple part on a manual machine. They are relativley intuitive to use, from my experiences just a simple "5-minute tour" of the machine is all a newbie needs. Plus a manual machine will likely never ever need any sort of "real" maintenance.

You can do an awful lot with regular lathes and mills, after all, it's the "poor craftsman who blames his tools". Our assistant captain last year did all of his own machining, including splining driveshafts, and making a titanium diff carrier. The only part that was done on a CNC was the actual bearing surfaces of the tripods, for obvious reasons.

[Hector]

You have to have at least one manual machine.

Everything ibanez said mirrors my thoughts. We usually require a year's worth of manual machine usage before we step up to CNC, and we still have a few crashes now and then. Putting people on a CNC lathe for first training is like putting a student driver in a Ferrari.

[exFSAE]

How much money you have to spend? That kinda defines.. a lot.

[D Collins Jr]

We run a manual/cnc shop, have 24 our access, and can use all of the machines.Our machine shop also staffs students, and we always have a team member on payroll. The questions that I would ask prior to getting new equipment, rather than "what can I use and have experience with?" is "what could I have access to?" Even if you're really good at running a mill, the machine should be at the school longer than you are. Try to maximize what the team will be able to use...if students won't be able to run cnc's, encourage the school to load up on manuals. Catch my drift? That being said...I also disagree with ibanez that manual machines don't require any "real" maintenance. Either type of machine will break if you don't take care of it. And people are probably more willing to take the time to clean the expensive, shiny cnc.

Speaking from my limited experience of one shop, I would get a surplus Bridgeport Knee Mill from somewhere (they're the best), and would try like hell to get Haas for my cncs. Bu exFSAE is right...money's the driving factor here, and of course, what the shop super wants.

Last word on the matter, try to diversify! I see no point in having three machines around that are all capable of the exact same thing and nothing else. If you have three lathes...look into one of them being a four-jaw chuck instead of just loading up on the same lathe for the same job. The more you can diversify the capabilities (including size) of your machines, the more jobs you can take on.

[Tim Gornik]

I would spend some time seeing which companies will offer you the most... Not in terms of product for $ but discount to your "non profit team." You may find a few companies that will practually hand you the equipment provided the correct coorespondence with them. Keep in mind the personell (YOU) using the machines will one day (soon hopefully) be out in industry. Having experience with a particular interface can be very helpful in the job hunt. From company X's perspective, if you need to purchase equipment you are definitely going to go with whom you are familiar with.

(and 20% off retail isnt shit, 20% off cost... now your talking)

[Jersey Tom]

Your available funding is definitely a huge deal here. A vertical machining center can range from $7,000 for an '87 Fadal (which a friend of mine just picked up, what a deal!) to $500,000 for a new Mori Seiki.

Anyway.

It's not as much the brand, as it is just knowing the machine you have. Knowing what it's capable of. Knowing how much TIR you have. Knowing how well the ways are scraped and if they're hour-glassed.

I also wouldn't rule out CNC. This machine will be a long term investment. 2, 5, or 10 years from now you may have a number of very competent machinists, programmers, and instrument makers.

Haas makes a CNC "Toolroom" Mill and Lathe. Not cheap, but they can be run in manual or CNC mode and are designed for easy programming and use. May be a good intermediate step between manual machines and full machining centers. Check the videos out on the Haas website.

Conversely you can get 2- and 3- axis CNC retrofit kits for manual machines. You can do a lot of FSAE parts on a machine the size of a Bridgeport J-head or a Hardinge HLV.

No matter what machines you get, get good sharp tooling, accurate measuring equipment, and maintain everything. Learn the capabilities. It's worth it.

For billet aluminum CNC'd uprights, the difference between poor tooling and programming, and good tooling and programming, can be as dramatic as taking 7 days to fabricate a part, to 2 hours.

Been there, done that.

[DanVaan]

Thanks for your thoughts guys. I have suggested to our faculty member in charge of getting the equipment that we go with machines that are capable of both manual and cnc operation, allowing us to train people in manual mode, and move on to CNC control once they get used to how everything works. This is only going to be a small shop, so we only have room for one mill and one lathe, so this should give us the best of both worlds.
I'm hoping that we can get the Haas TL-1, and I found a good looking mill from Summit Machine (Smartcut EVS CNC Mill) that I have suggested.

[Hector]

I would say one more thing to consider - range of travel. How big are the parts you plan to make? I know that our CNC lathe is barely big enough to make a diff housing.

Try and visualize the parts that will need to be made and make sure that your machine has the range of travel capable of making those parts.

[Grant Mahler]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jersey Tom:
Haas makes a CNC "Toolroom" Mill and Lathe. Not cheap, but they can be run in manual or CNC mode and are designed for easy programming and use. May be a good intermediate step between manual machines and full machining centers. Check the videos out on the Haas website.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yea, just be careful that the handles spin the same direction as the rest of your shop...

[Chapo]

HAAS make good cnc mills, but i would try and stay away from the toolroom (TM & TL) series. While they can be used manually they are fairly flimsy and no where near as good as their larger siblings (you have to takes lots of finishing cuts on bearing holes to ensure they are correct, we were doing 3 finishing cuts at 0.02 mm in 4130 to get the holes accurate). You can also use the larger ones manually(ish) its a little more complicated but its possible. I suggest a mixture of pure CNC and pure manual.

Thats my 2c

[kapps]

I agree. You need both, and the manual versions being higher priority. You can always try to find a company to help out with NC work but I don't know how you could build a car without a manual mill. Also, you don't want to be using/abusing your CNC mill doing work that a manual mill can accomplish.

[DanVaan]

I would love separate manual and cnc machines, but unfortunately the space that we have available can only fit one mill and one lathe.

Also, we really don't do much milling compared to lathe work, although that might change when we start running a fully stressed engine.