Baja vs. Formula

[iamtojo]

First post, although I've been lurking for a while.

So, a group of us at my university (to remain unnamed for now because we don't have official approval from the university) are trying to get SAE started back up. There was a Baja team once upon a time, but the guys were not very committed and the dean cut it off basically because the university was making an investment in a group of guys to go to a competition and make the university look bad.

We have been weighing the balance on whether to do Baja or Formula, and the jury is still out. After doing some basic research, we thought to go with the Formula competition, but the professor who we asked to be our advisor (and he's the really logical choice) likes the Baja competition better.

So this is your chance to influence our opinion. We have a pretty dedicated group of guys stepping up to the plate on this, and working harder for one or the other shouldn't be a problem. Cost might be an issue, although we won't know for sure for a bit; feel free to comment on it anyway. The other question is which one will be more rewarding/likely to retain the interest of the team. I think that our core group will be with it thick and thin, but we should consider the future of the program once these guys graduate.

Thanks in advance

[EHog]

Honestly, if the jury is still out you probably shouldn't do formula. Successful teams pour everything they have into this project. When I say successful all i'm talking about is making a car that can make it around the track, even once, at competition.

Which project will you "get more out of?" Formula. Without a doubt. Period. End of discussion.

And when you talk about getting and retaining useful members, good luck. There is no easy answer! Search the forums and you will see that even the largest and most successful teams have these troubles!

[js10coastr]

I'm assuming you've read "reasoning your way through the design process". I'd take a look at the costs to enter each competition along with the facilities your uni has to offer and make your decision from there.

The same equations apply to each project, as do the management and leadership problems.

[Demon Of Speed]

It will take a min. of 3 guys and 5000USD to get a baja car around in a year and It will take a min. of 6 guys and 12000USD to get a Formula car around in a year (from my experience). Figure out how long you have to the day you want to compete and decide which competition you can feasibly design and build a car for.

Formula and Baja, are two completely different types of competitions, with different goals. Decide what your goals are.

[thewoundedsoldier]

Originally posted by EHog:
Honestly, if the jury is still out you probably shouldn't do formula. Successful teams pour everything they have into this project. When I say successful all i'm talking about is making a car that can make it around the track, even once, at competition.

+1 !

At our school, Baja has been ran the past couple of years by the most experienced dude in the ME department, and he has made it look fairly easy. I think that despite the spec'd engine, Baja is still just as challenging because of the crazy dynamic events and tough chassis requirements.

I personally feel more impressed when I see a school with a solid Formula team than I do when I see a school with a solid Baja team. This probably comes from the fact that I have a Formula background and my only experience with Baja is watching this guy at our school make it look easy.

As for cost and manpower, I don't think these should really be deal-breakers for you. Follow your passions! It sounds like your school is a financial supporter, so you are already ahead of many schools in both Baja and Formula!

[Will M]

Also talk with your advisor about sponsorship. If he or your Uni might have a connection that pushs you in one direction or the other.

Also testing areas! Its way easier to find a muddy field than it is to find a large empty parking lot that you can get permission to drive fast in. Seat time is king.

[Rotary Sprocket]

Based on my experience Formula takes more time and resources than Baja. With 8-15 people working up to 30 hours a week in the shop, our car takes 9 months to design and manufacture (and that's a good year). I've seen our baja team wait till the last minute every year and build their entire car in a month.

That's just my opinion though. Which project you end up choosing is going to be dependent on how much money and manpower is available, but also your facility as well. I wish the best of luck to you on whichever team you end up starting. Either way the skills you learn from a project like this are so valuable and will most likely prepare you for anything you experince in life after college.

[Xeilos]

I agree with everyone above with how Baja gets their vehicle done. It more or less happens overnight and they do not have the dedication (read: obsession) to the project that people on any given formula team does. You and your team will also learn more from FSAE then Baja in a shorter period of time, but the road to learning is going to be more difficult.

That being said, if your school is worried about how you look at the competition, you have two options:

1) Join Baja, you will have a greater chance of continued success and in making your University 'look good' in the short term (and possibly the long term).

2) Tell your University that participation in FSAE comes with a caveat; do not expect brilliant performance right out of the gate (ie. consistent Top 10 finishes or even finishing all the events each year). It is possible to finish all the events each year, but is extremely difficult (read: approaching impossible) for a first year team to compete at the caliber of the top teams. The structures of the team, the design methodology and the overall experience have not been built yet. The other thing, is do not expect consistent winning, Murphy always seems to come into play and screw things up.

If you decide to do FSAE I would recommend taking 2 years to build your 1st car. Taking this time and spending it to get the team built from the ground up (management, structure, resources, etc ... then design) will net you a better benefit in the long term. The second piece is in agreement with Will M above; seat time is king and you will have to practice and test your car before coming to a competition.

Good luck and keep us posted with what your University will be doing.

[Francis Gagné]

I tend to differ about the vision of Baja teams. That might be because we know and work closely with them (Same computer lab and we share our working space) and also that the Sherbrooke Baja team has been pretty sucessful (Almost always top ten, 1st in Alabama 2008, etc) over the years. The guys at Sherbrooke are very dedicated and have a well organized structure and design methods. You'll always learn if you try to go further. I think it is more of team spirit and will than the competition you're in, but formula does require it to just do the car.

I do admit that the rules and restrictions of baja makes it easier to build a working/compliant car for the competition. Just getting motor out of the equation greatly simplify design and reduces minimum work load. I think most here will agree at how complicated it can be to only start a motor you don't know with a restrictor and a new ECU.

On the other hand, i think that the added complexity of the systems (And the number of them) and compromises made to built a formula as well as the design judging quality seen in the competitions makes it very good learning pay off. But anyone giving itself into these type of projects wich have real life situation, fabrication and team management will have very good advantage over only doing usual classes (especially if you don't have paid internships at your school).

Like some have said, I would also recommend to make the project on a 2 year basis for the first car/baja. But put yourself stringent deadlines in term of research, preleminary and detailed design if you don't want to end up not making it to comp.

As for your choice, It depends on what learning curve your team is willing to go, as for money, if you are dedicated to the projet money can always be found. Competition and quality in formula SAE is very strong and still making to make car runs is a true challenge on itself. But sucessing in having a working strong fsae car is the best feeling there is!

On the order of keeping people in the team, it is always complicated, but don't be afraid to let people in, give them responsability, make them learn. Keep them in the loop and give them work and they'll stay. Don't wait till your about to graduate to recruit.

If you want to hae your Uni in line with the project show them how dedicated and professional you are. Make them a good presentation of the project, team structure and budget, impress them! Our team gets most of it's money, parts and fabrication from sponsors. The only thing our team Advisor does is signs thing that needs to be signed, the guy is brilliant and supports us, but as absolutely no spare time for the project. So even with minimal support from your school it can be done!

Hope this helps you!

[Drew Price]

Baja is very relaxed and probably lots more fun.

You will have more time to hit on hot liberal arts majors and go to frat parties if that's important to you.

You won't find people in the paddock of FSAE using a flux-core MIG to weld old golf club shafts and angle iron onto their suspension links to 'strengthen' them (after straightening them back out with a fatty hammer and driving over them with the rental truck first) because they got bent when one of the Brazilian baja cars flipped a bitch going into a high-speed (~22mph) downhill sweeper slick with mud (from all the spilled Budweiser from people watching nearby going ape over the action) and plowed into the side of the car.

This actually happened to our car at the '06 Midwest competition my freshman year.

The Baja endurance race at least used to be a 4-hour endurance with all the cars out at once, and you are allowed to repair the car as the event runs, whoever has most laps at end of 4 hours wins, so you see some pretty fucked up stuff being done to cars with popped welds in the paddock.

I also heard about a Baja design judge asking a team why they had removed the splash shields that sit behind their brake rotors.

"To keep the brakes cooler."

"But those brake rotors get hot. What if someone burns themselves?"

"....Well.... then that person would be an idiot...."

[kapps]

I'll agree with most of what's been said already. I was part of the group that restarted FSAE at our school after a several year hiatus. We ended up doing a 2 year car that first year (even though it wasn't planned to be one). There were 4-5 of us that lived at the shop. The car was heavy, thrown together, but finished all the events.

Our university has a very well established Baja team. We shared the shop and all the equipment with them. It led to some tensions and I can't count the number of times the Baja guys tried to convince Formula to shut down. The two teams are completely different animals and attract different types of people. The people you want would do just fine on either team...real engineers. Formula just offers a lot more but also attracts more of the wrong people ("aww man, lets slap a turbo on that...").

Formula seems to offer a lot more opportunity for learning new things. This is also why it's harder and more expensive. One example would be that this is the first year our Baja guys used the cnc mill (and that was because I programmed it for them). They actually designed their own uprights. Well, I mean a senior design team designed their uprights for them and had to spend a lot of time convincing them that billet 7075 uprights are a lot better than the cast Polaris parts they've been using.

Baja cars come together over a long weekend and it doesn't matter if the frame is 1/4" un-square. They don't understand why we would need to precisely measure the locations of our suspension pickup points.

This might sound like a rant against Baja but these are the reasons why I feel Formula is better for an engineer going into real industry. This is what you need to get your school to understand. It will cost more, take more time and dedication, be harder to place high, BUT it will leave their students with more real world engineering knowledge.

[Andy K]

I have worked on three FSAE cars , one Baja and led a Baja team... it all depends on what you make of it. I had the most fun while in Baja (ok, I got to drive it), but had a hard time leading the team from my need for precision. As a result I switched back to FSAE. Much more of a challenge, which I enjoy.

Either way, if you make it look professional and take it seriously you can't go wrong.

[Old Greg]

As part of a team that competes in both series' I can tell you for an absolute fact, Baja is a lot more fun. The endurance event is indeed 4 hours, wheel to wheel. And trust me when I say that changing a flat tire in the last 5 minutes of a race when your driver is fighting for second is a bigger rush than you're likely to find at a formula competition. Oh, and there ain't no party like a Baja party... mostly because ETS is sponsored by a beer company.

But Baja is not easy. There are plenty of uncompetitive teams, the replies to this thread are proof of that, but there are quite a few teams that are very, very good. Ask RIT, OSU, Cornell or ETS about their school's baja team.

A baja car made in a month will be a back marker and/or spend more time in the pits than on the track. It's the same concept as a 700 lb Formula car.

That said, If you've got enough smart and dedicated people (and a talented enough driver) You'll have a better shot of finishing in the top ten in Baja after 3 or 4 years than you will in Formula.

PS. If you do go down the Baja route, bajasae dot net is a good place to be.

[RollingCamel]

If we are running an ongoing team, FSAE or Baja, I'd break the routine for a year every couple of years and do something else, or having both teams and switch some members. Different conditions and compromises will definitely make the student more flexible when confronting different types of challenges.

After what happened in Egypt and the team's unsuccessful attempt to join the competition they got split to 2. The electro-mechanics students want to make a FSE car and the mechanical engineering students want FSC. Now, I can't expect strong funding from Egyptian companies because of the economic setback, which is nothing in comparison to all the gains and much better economic possibilities in the future without corruption. Going electric can drive way more interest, however, without the experience and proved ability to be able to get a working "chassis" they don't only have the challenge of the powertrain, but also the whole thing.

Btw, our logo got nicked by some stupid web designer.

PS. There was an article on SAE's FSAE website under resources about managing non technical side of the students' competition. Was a good read at the start.

[Adambomb]

I've heard that compared to baja, formula requires 3 times the money, 3 times the man-hours, and 3 times the engineering, and I agree with this, and it also happens to match somewhat closely to what others have claimed.

Although you will learn much more from formula. In doing all that extra engineering, you'll learn to ride multiple competing constraints on a razor's edge, and all that time you'll spend obsessing over minutia will teach you the importance of compromises (ie a good solution now is better than a perfect solution too late). The learning curve is steep, but the payoffs are bigger. If you want to work for a big, mainstream automotive or powersports company then baja will give you good skills for that. If you want to get into racing or some of the more extreme automotive stuff, formula is the way to go.

As for which is more "fun," you'll spend less time in the shop and more time driving with baja. But driving a baja car is about like driving a theme park go cart in terms of performance. Yes, you can drive over and through some pretty intense stuff, hit a curb at top speed and drive down stairs, but the performance level is so low there's not a lot of challenge to doing it well. Top speed is about 30 mph, and acceleration is on par with an '80s 4-cylinder pickup.

Driving a formula car for the first time will leave you trembling. With good tires and a decent setup on an average parking lot you can pull over 1 g in any direction, and vehicle response is unlike anything you've ever driven before. 0-60 times are in the ballpark of 4 seconds or less. Top speed is generally gear-limited to about 100 mph or so with a stock transmission, although for most teams the only "closed course" they have available is a large parking lot, so you'll rarely see more than about 70 mph. But then again, you are going 70 mph in a PARKING LOT. The performance envelope is so large and things happen so fast that when it comes to driving, the biggest problem you'll have is finding someone who can put that level of performance to good use and actually drive smoothly. It's actually probably too much car for an amateur. But as mentioned earlier it takes a lot more to get a formula car moving, and even after that they are much higher maintenance and fragile.

+1 for a two year first car. Read Big Bird's "Reasoning your way through the design procss" thread carefully, it outlines a lot of the top-level design choices, as well as some big things to think about with team management. Best advice I can give is realistically establish what "level" you're on...biting off more than you can chew will only lead to massive disappointment. From there once you have a solid baseline design established and some competent SAE experienced team members and a good team culture you can slowly start taking on more complex things like dry sumps and turbos, if you so choose.

Above all else, go to some competitions as spectators! Do that now, and it should help you make a much more educated decision about which way you want to go. All the competitions for both formula and baja are listed on sae dot org, as well as spectator requirements. Go, take a thousand pictures, get some ideas, talk to people, talk to judges, talk to professors, find a "mentor team," preferably one that's well-established somewhat close to where you're at and hang out at their hotel, have some beers with them, etc. (...although note that some teams are more personable and more willing to share their experiences than others; some are quite secretive).

[BrendonD]

I'm going to second Adambomb's suggestion of going to competitions. I had a 20 minute conversation with Dr. Bob of UTA last year that largely shaped my program strategy as Project Manager.

Respect gets respect, doing the preliminary research and asking intelligent, well thought out questions to judges and team members will start unbelievably interesting conversations and stories.

Best of luck to you whichever way you decide to go.

RollingCamel, you should start up a Baja Egypt competition! That would be exciting!

[RollingCamel]

RollingCamel, you should start up a Baja Egypt competition! That would be exciting!

Hmm....it would be, and doesn't need much infrastructure. But who would judge it? How did the Indians start and run their competitions? My second nickname would be BumpyCamel.

[RollingCamel]

I'm no expert by any means and many other members are way more knowledgeable than myself but here is my input from my 1st and only year experience.

As for 2 or 1 year timeline for 1st year project, here is my opinion. I'd go for one in the 1st year and 2 for the next car, depending on the team's resources and "infrastructure". By now 2012 is the nearest possible deadline so you have a year and a half as I did. For the 1st car, there are many unknowns and assumptions that you will not know or feel unless you try it out. It is most likely the car may not work and will have many problems, but you will learn from it and joining/visiting the competitions and other teams will give you more ideas.

In the 1st year your plan will be over the place because you really don't know from where to start and what comes after what. Machining woes will let you know what you need for your team in terms of equipment and taking machinability more seriously into design loop.
After the enlightening, you may want to work for 2 years on the next car depending on your funds, equipment and team. Give sometime for vehicle dynamics and start putting a short and long term plan, because getting the car running well isn't the end of it. Analyzing the car and re-entering the data will help you understand and achieve more of the car's potential. To do such things is not easy and doesn't come cheap.

PS. I'm glad that a team has started in my university to build a powerboat.

[Xeilos]

This thread so far has turned into a great resource for any team trying to start a FSAE team from scratch. I would rank this thread so far just below Geoff's for aid in helping a first year team.

Keep up the posts everyone and compiling the collective knowledge for any team that wish's to join FSAE (and not Baja http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

[iamtojo]

First of all, thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. It was a tough decision, and having input from people who are currently involved was helpful in providing perspective to some of our team members.

The final decision has been to go with Baja (still pending university approval) because of the commitment required to make Formula a success. A couple of guys on our team were the sort who would do whatever it took and wanted to do Formula (myself included), but we decided that it wouldn't be good to disenfranchise all of the guys that wanted to be a part of the project by putting the bar too high in the first year. There certainly is a possibility that the team will turn to Formula some time in the future, but not for the 2012 competition.

Once again, thanks to all of you on the forum here, and those whose commitment to Formula has kept the competition alive and serious.

[fixitmattman]

Having done both I find FSAE guys in general underestimate the challange of BAJA. Maybe this is because it usually plays second fiddle to FSAE and doesn't get as much attention as it deserves. Coming from two upstart teams both were equally as much work in my opinion. In terms of effort of engineering we put just as much into our BAJA cars as the FSAE cars. Maybe that's why we did as well as we did. To be honest I found FSAE endurance to be less exciting than Baja endurance. The number of cars that didn't make it through FSAE endurance was kinda sad considering there wasn't one old telephone pole involved. I never knew pylons could cause such destruction.

Both cars have their high and low points. It's like trying to compare an SVT raptor to the GT40, apples and oranges.

[ZAMR]

How come every Baja car I've seen (minus a few of the good ones) has huge bending loads everywhere? Is it not a big problem on dirt tracks or do Baja teams just not understand solid mechanics?

[Mazur]

Are you really that surprised?

[Nick Renold]

Originally posted by ZAMR:
How come every Baja car I've seen (minus a few of the good ones) has huge bending loads everywhere? Is it not a big problem on dirt tracks or do Baja teams just not understand solid mechanics?

I guess the Baja lapsims show that time spent drinking and hooning is more worthwhile than building perfect load paths.

[D.J.]

Here at UConn we have never had to deal with a Baja team. Lucky for us because we don't have to compete for the support/members that are scarce enough around here. I have read my share of horror stories about the issue on the forums.

Recently the schools Steel Bridge club commandeered a room in the rear of our shop. Its been a nightmare. A bunch of CEs being CEs. They have had everything handed to them. Facilities came over on the U's dime and redid the electrical for them while we have been running semi permanent extension cords around the shop for years. The team got two brand new MIG welders one of which was returned because it "wasn't working" out of the box, we think it may have been in spool gun mode. With the welders they ordered something like ten 20lb spools of flux core filler wire. Apparently they have been using it indoors for years and then grinding ponds of slag off the bridge after welding. The reasoning being that it's easier than getting gas.

A dust/welding curtain was promised to seal the room off from our engine dyno. They duct taped a trash bag like plastic sheet with slits around the door. We had to explain that although you couldn't see dust coming in that it wasn't sufficient suggesting a real strip door. We had one lying around the shop and offered it to them but they "couldn't install anything like that in the bricks." They placed a work order with facilities so we know it will never get done. What kind of engineer cant use a hammer drill and install a few wall anchors? I guess a steel bridge CE.

I guess its better than concrete canoe and they do have a nice band saw (wood cutting blade btw).

In summary at least Baja teams are MEs.

Sorry for the rant.

[Racer-X]

I'm sure that you have already made up your minds about which route you want to go down. I just want to add my thoughts for anyone down the road in the same situation.

Baja has a lower barrier of entry, I mean no offense in that, its just a fact. It is actually an advantage in many ways. A group of 5 guys can design and build a heavy Baja car with all kinds of bending loads in a year on half the budget of a formula team. This car can then proceed the finish middle of the pack at competition. Being off road with a spec engine their cars are very simple, and a bent upright or wheel doesn't mean they're out. What this means is a first year team is going to have a better chance of being competitive.

Formula takes more time and money to get off the ground. A first car can take two years to build, cost much more than a Baja car would, and requires twice the amount of man power at a minimum. There are more systems, and the cars need to be built closer to the edge to be competitive in formula, this means there are many more places for failure. At the same time the competition is a lot more open ended and the challenge is the fun.

Formula goes fast on pavement and Baja goes off jumps. Which challenge do you want?

[Rodiman]

We like to play a game with our Baja team's chassis, called "count the triangles." Its pretty tough...

[Racer-X]

Originally posted by Rodiman:
We like to play a game with our Baja team's chassis, called "count the triangles." Its pretty tough...

Hahaha. I like the Asymmetric chassis game. Find what's different right to left that "shouldn't be."

[Max Trenkle]

From another perspective...

Here at Tennessee Tech, EVERYONE knows about the Baja team. Our Baja team is very contrary to most of what has been posted here. They work very hard, have lots of fun, and are quite accurate with their work. (Maybe that's why they win so much...)

In fact, without Baja's help, the Formula team NEVER would have been made it back in business. They have all the resources they will ever need since they have brought so much positive attention to the University.

The Formula team from 4-6 years ago gave the University such a bad rep that ME dropped it and the Engineering Tech department picked it up. We have less money than Baja, bad attitudes from former Formula SAE advisers, and countless people who think that horsepower is king. Welcome to Tennessee lol.

Baja guys will agree that Formula is more complicated (i.e. higher learning curve, more to gain overall), but that shouldn't be your deciding factor. The main things hiring companies see in SAE competition students is the ability work with a team, manage a project, communicate with others effectively, make compromises that get the job done, etc. You will learn these things in Baja, Formula, or other SAE competitions. So pick what you want to work on. I know University Bureaucracy seems to be a huge limiting factor, but in the end, you can't let that stop you from achieving your goals. After all, some teams do operate completely independently from their university other than the necessary faculty adviser. You can rent out a building, get your own equipment, etc, but I imagine that in itself might be harder to accomplish than getting a student designed car around the track. =P

Do what you want, and you'll do what you have to do to get it done.