Oklahoma Needs Your Help

[Chris Allbee]

I know that this has come up before (not for this specific reason), but our team is in a bit of a bind.

Our school has basically taken away all our test facilities and we are trying to put our case together on why this is an extremely bad thing. We have all our reasons and such, but I think if we were able to show testimony on the importance of test and test space from others in the FSAE community then it would lend more weight to our case.

Our team has come along way in the 5 years that i've been a part of it, and we've had great success due to all the testing we've been able to get and in part to all of the support from other teams throughout the year and at competitions (you know who you are).

If you would be willing to help, please send me a short email on how having the ability to test and train is crucial to a succesful program. Just a few sentences or a paragraph would be all thats needed. We have our meeting with the Provost on Thursday, so there is a bit of a time crunch.

Thank you in advance.

P.S. c_allbee "AT" ou "DOT" edu

[Pete M]

Well, i could give you a bunch of reasons why testing is important, but anyone involved with SAE can do that. It's ridiculous to expect a team to do well if they haven't had track time to tune and train drivers. (Feel free to quote that).

My question is: why is losing testing grounds at your school such a big deal? We haven't been able to test on university property in at least 3 years, and even then we didn't do the majority of our testing there. We do most of our testing at a local kart track and most of our tuning and driver training at a skidpad about 40 minutes drive north of us. Can't you find a big car park somewhere with a sympathetic owner?

[Brett Neale]

We're in the same boat as Wollongong - we have NEVER tested anywhere on University property. All our testing and driver training has been done at a go-kart track (about 30mins drive) and a small minibike track, with tuning done at a generous company's empty Sunday carpark.

[Buckingham]

We ran into the same thing 4 or 5 years ago. After we convinced them to let us use the facilities again, one of the best things we ever did to improve University relations was to start hosting a 'faculty day' in the fall where you let any University faculty (prof's, TA's, administrators) come and drive your car. The University likes it when you can physically show how you 'give back' and it is the easiest way to gain support from your prof's.

[Chris Allbee]

I can definitely appreciate that not every school is able to use the university parking lots to practice on. I'm not sure how it is in Australia, but here in the US large lots outside the school are mainly owned by large corporations. We have approached them time and again, but their major concern is safety and how we can practically cordone off an area of a business lot during the day. Not to mention that the only lots large enough for us to safely practice on would be owned by a Wal-mart or Target. There are a couple of facilities (local kart tracks), but that kind of racing in our country, and in particular our area of the country, is in such difficult times that we would have to rent track time. They refuse to sponsor us. I don't know about your schools, but we can't afford $5000 a day for testing.

Please trust me when I say this isn't my first hurdle I've had with this school and this isn't my first year on the team. I and my team have been working for 4 months to try and find a new place to practice and train. We are running out of options. That is why I came here to ask for a little help...

[Biggy72]

So what happened that made them want to pull the plug on you guys? We ran into the same thing last year, but there were some things that they accused us of doing when we actually did not do any of it.

[Chris Allbee]

Basically the guy in charge of the lots retired and control defaulted to the Athletic committee. they accused us of "damaging" the pavement, to which we countered with the fact that the burnout marks are obviously treaded and have a track width of over 60 inches...definitely not our car. We show them this evidence and the response..."we don't care, we just don't want you out here."

[VinceL]

Being located in a big city it's very hard for our school to find a testing location. Especially in the last couple of years with real estate in the city becoming more and more expensive. We google earthed our area to find suitable locations. At the moment we drive 100 km (about 1.5 hours) each way for testing in the parking lot of the nearest race track (Mosport).

The point is, if you really want to test, then you might have to make a similar sacrifice.

[js10coastr]

Originally posted by Chris Allbee:
Basically the guy in charge of the lots retired and control defaulted to the Athletic committee. they accused us of "damaging" the pavement, to which we countered with the fact that the burnout marks are obviously treaded and have a track width of over 60 inches...definitely not our car. We show them this evidence and the response..."we don't care, we just don't want you out here."

Get the department on your side... and try to get the higher ups interested in the project. Show the positive impacts the project has, and try to convince them that it's safer for you to test on campus than elsewhere.

[Biggy72]

Ahhh the infamous burnout marks.... hahaha we had the same thing last year. The school insurance guy didn't want us driving on campus any more because he said we had burn out marks all over the parking lot and parking services then had to clean it over the winter.

The problem was that the lot was never cleaned, the burn out marks were not from a limited slip rear end as there was only one tire mark, and our tires do not leave that dark of a mark when doing a burnout since they are race tires. We then had the same response about not wanting us using the parking lot so our advisor got on the phone, called up the school insurance guy and then proceeded to tell him what she really thought of him. She also threatened to go to higher up people in the school because of how he was single handedly holding up a fairly major student project because he did not like what we were doing.

We have had the campus cops come talk to us several times just because they are interested in our project and they have never once been mad at us. They've seen how we test and they once again never had a problem with anything we do. So for one guy that has never been to a test session or possibly ever seen our car to hold us up was pretty bad. Luckily the ass chewing our advisor did got him to back off within a few hours and we were back to testing like usual.

[emerjer]

I've sent you an email, check your inbox!!!

[Wesley]

I'm beginning to think that the cops are the only guys that want us out there.

We were reported in an apparently "less than authorized" lot not long ago, and the officer that came out asked why we weren't running at Lloyd Noble. He did everything in his power to get the OK for us to keep driving. If he hadn't gotten a call from anyone he probably wouldn't have said a word about us driving there.

I don't think you guys realize (well, I'm sure some of you do, who are in similar locations) but 1.5 hours from Norman in any direction is grassy hills. Most of the race tracks out here are dirt, the local kart tracks won't donate, we run on a tight budget, and we've been looking our asses off for a replacement practice area.

The problem is, even winning 1st place in West Design, we're still seen as a bunch of kids who like to screw around in a parking lot with a toy. Sure we do, but that is a side effect of the real engineering issue, and one that is not taught in schools.
In no other program can you gain as much experience in proper design, proper manufacturing, design for manufacturing, operating within budget, testing and validation of design, and data and failure analysis.

A couple of team members and I were joking that engineering has been distilled down to "the study of colorful squiggly lines." That's pretty much true in more ways than I care to admit. Colleges have really catered to the technology side of engineering - and while that is an important skill to learn, we don't seem to realize that computers are "best-guess" approximations of what lies out your window.

Getting to step into the real world where numbers aren't rounded, control+z means you don't have narcolepsy, and errors don't come in little grey packages with a box to click on gives you a lot of perspective.

Life doesn't happen in a research lab, either. Theres something about asphalt thats a little less forgiving than an MTS machine. Who cares if a 2"x6" aluminum sample fails before it's supposed to? Now who cares when a 2"x4" aluminum upright fails? It's a lesson in humility when problems happen, and a lesson in perseverence when something you've put your life into needs a little bit more work.

If we're going to build and test a car with a computer, Detroit should be held in front of plasma screens with Logitech and Sony as sponsors. E-mailing in our models would certainly save a lot of time and money.

I haven't been through as drastic an improvement as some others on our team, I'm a relative newbie. But to imagine going from 60th place to getting 12th place without finishing endurance and winning design. Would you want to go back to 60th without a fight?

To steal a line from Apollo 13: "Imagine if Christopher Columbus had discovered the New World and never come back?" It allows us to collect data and build on it, to learn from experience.

It isn't only about making us better number-crunchers, its about making us better problem solvers and more effective workers.

And on top of that, we get to play around in the parking lot with our toys. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Biggy72]

I know for us any way we do quite a bit of recruiting for our club within the school, and for the school in general outside of school. The marketing people for the school have started putting us in brochures that are sent out to high school seniors and stuff like that. Personally if the school it self is holding us up I would counter with refusing to do anything for the school like that.

And the only other thing I can think of is to get the department behind you. They must realize how difficult this competition is and once they do they will hopefully understand why some kind of testing facility is needed.

[js10coastr]

Originally posted by Wesley:
I'm beginning to think that the cops are the only guys that want us out there.



Yeah, the cops here are pretty nice to us now. They brought out a speed gun for us one time too. I'd suggest you get them to help support your case too...

[Kyle Walther]

the situation as i understand it (and i'm an outsider now) is that we have the department and the college behind us. both the Dean of the college and the director have traveled to both east and west to watch and support us. Loyd Noble( the lot we have been using since 95 i believe) has been trying to kick us off for a while. It really started when we were practicing three or more times a week in the late months of spring. but that is what it takes. and As soon as our last "in" retired they were quick to give us the boot.

I hope that all of this can be resolved b/c the testing is what really allowed us to achieve what we have. I hope that some of you can take the time to write Chris a quick email about the importance of testing. I know It would be extremely appreciated. And if anyone else needs a quick letter for anything..just ask Chris and i know he'll get it for you http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[adrial]

Perhaps you can bring in FSAE alumni who have gotten jobs in the engineering field to speak to the people in charge.

I graduated in May '06...and the FSAE experience made the transition to real world engineering from fairy tale school of engineering non-existent. (I started working for Sikorsky in June '06)

It was really just like moving to a new job where there was an increased opportunity to learn even more. Well, except that I actually got paid.

College graduates that can actually DO things make the university look good to the business world. Graduate students that stick their nose in books doing research bring the school more research grants.

Most engineers go to school to ultimately get a job, not to be able to do research. So if the university looks good to the business world, the business world will be more likely to recruit from that school and more students will want to go there...and so the cycle goes. This cycle will better the reputation of the school overall.

Best of luck to everyone fighting the good fight...

[Biggy72]

So what exactly is the department expecting out of you guys? Do they want you guys to win events, or do they want you guys to be mediocre at best? How do they think that you are going to be testing the car?

[Buckingham]

I kind of alluded to it in my prior post, but I will restate it a little more clearly. Find the person(s) who are most against what you are doing, and invite them to take laps in your car. Have your best and most polite driver give them some coaching. Explain the rules, flagging, and safety procedures. Have your team dress and behave professionally like you are at competition. Treat them with respect, let them have fun, and let your car speak for itself. While they are taking some breaks in between laps, talk to them about the car and point out its innovative features so they realize that your team actually designs the car, not just bolts parts from a JEGS catalog together. You will most likely take your biggest enemy and turn them into your biggest ally, which is much more valuable than having someone higher up intervene and make your enemy dislike you even more.

Besides, isn't your first seat time in the car what turned you from a so-so team member into 'that guy that wears dirty shop clothes to class and looks like he never sleeps'... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[formula_geek]

One approach that helped us in our bid to continue testing was formalizing the process. We drafted a list of safety rules for every test (minimum # of people, fire extinguishers, roles and responsibilities of those present). We began testing during specific hours (no more 3AM blasts past the dorms), and identified specific contacts for each test event. It helps to precisely define what will happen during the test for the 'powers-that-be'.

And as everyone else has said, cultivate as many friends as possible within your school. We held a campus-wide event for staff/faculty/students where we provided the food and allowed everyone a closer look at the car.

[duckei]

First off I would like to say you guys(and ladies?) are one of the most interesting teams with your multi-functional push bar and epic engine explosions. You are awesome.

Second, we've noticed the administration really appreciates the publicity our team gives to the school. Our roll-out event and other events we put together create an image that gives the school pride about what we do. Because of this, it has been pretty supportive of our needs, with a few exceptions.

Us FSAE'rs are an important part of the school-and should be. If your school doesn't agree with that, then it is being hypocritical of support or it really doesn't care. I hope that it cares.

Good luck guys.

[Chris Allbee]

First off I would like to thank everyone that sent letters of support, it really helped. We worked our way up the food chain and eventually all the letters and our case landed on the University President's desk! He put in a personal request with the athletic department here (they control just about everything at OU) to let us continue to use the parking lot for practice. At this point it should just be a formality, but we are waiting to hear back from the athletic director.

Again, thank you everyone for your support.

[Dan Lentsch]

I'm starting to think that our FSAE team over at Marquette could use some help.. I wish we had a problem like not being allowed to do testing in a university parking lot. Let me explain our situation.

We share our room (a large closet) with a "welding lab" that that takes place both semesters for 1.5 months. during this time we are not allowed to touch any of thier setups which take up a good portion of the room.

We have a nice water brake dyno downstairs in the engineering building, but are not allowed to touch it. (we were told it is to much work)
we cannot drive the car on campus

Our "faculty advisor" will not respond to our emails, and avoids us at all costs. (he even told us he couldn't go to the competition in Detroit a week before, even though he had promised the whole year to go)

The engineering college refuses to give us money that it promised (in writing) to last year. in other words, we bought parts with the intention of getting reimbursed but then they stopped paying us back because racing is expensive.

We cannot use the machine shop outside of school hours (9am - 5pm, Monday through friday and 10am to 2pm Saturdays)

Aside from all that we have some great sponsors that let us work at their faculties which are about an hour away. I wish that we had the backing that many of your schools offer you, but I realize that we are a new team and the chances of that are simply zero. But the best part about having no backing from the school and constantly being told that it would be a miracle if we even showed up in Michigan was passing tech and getting run (for only 3 laps..) in the endurance race. We still have a good group of guys working on the car and are excited to come back this year with a substantially improved platform. Good to hear that you guys at Oklahoma will be able to test again on campus, hopefully someday we will too.
-Dan

[duckei]

Congrats Oklahoma! Good luck to you guys at Marquette! Hope to see you on the track.

[Buckingham]

Dan,

Schedule a presentation to the powers-that be during the same week UW plays you guys in Basketball, then bring up how well the guys at Madison did this year at Detroit. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

All joking and in-state rivalry aside, both UW and MSOE used to be able to run at Miller Park (although I think Miller Park got an attitude and stopped letting them use it once the Brewers started doing well). There is also a go-kart track in Dousman that you could try. If you have really exhausted all efforts (alumni/shopping malls/businesses) shoot me an email at d*h*a*i*d*i*n*g*e*r at hotmail dot com. (without the *'s).

[Dan Lentsch]

thats not to bad of an idea, a little rivalry always gets things going around here. As for Miller, they do not allow any more parking lot testing.. I guess Marquette teams used to practice there in the past as well, but its not allowed any more. Recently we found a parking lot at UWM, and have been there a couple times to drive. only problem is that it is a park and ride / overflow parking lot. But it has been working so far.