Porsche Cayman S ABS failure or something else?

[dende890]

Hello,

I have Cayman S 2007. Just bought it in mid Feb. with 11,000 miles.
I modified the suspension, brakes, etc…, but it is not important.
I mostly use it for tracks from VIR to W.Glen. It happened at the Watkins Glen when I pit after a session and the car cooled off slightly. I seat in the car with ignition off and pressed the brake pedal. To my surprise the pedal easily traveled to the floor. I started pumping the pedal and it became firm again. It happened that Spencer Cox from Farmbacher Loles was at the track with a client and he as a generous man bled the whole systems, inner and outer. He also made a suggestion that it is an ABS failure and I have to change it to the Racing Unit which is very costly. Now I know that the unit cost $10,675 without installation. Back to the Glen.
The pedal was firm again as it suppose to be. I went to another session and everything was okay during the run. But after pit in I turned the ignition off, wait a few minutes, pressed the brake pedal and to my surprise it surrenders again. After pumping it became firm again. I decided not to do anything this time and went to the track for the next session in an hour. I drive hard as usual but with alert senses towards the brakes. Everything was working perfect, however after 10-12 minutes I stated feeling that after the long straight where I reached 130+ mph the brake pedal started feeling like going some more distance then usual. After some less speed on shorter straights but still hard braking I felt the same and quit driving. With Spencer we went to the Porsche dealership which was with their team of GTs on the track at the time, they immediately connected the computer, checked the system but there was no any troubles found. By the way, ABS or PSM lights were never on. I drove with PSM “on” since I never driven Porsches yet and as I said it was my 3rd day with this car on track.
After that Spencer bled whole system again and I just drove 100 yards, stopped the car switched the ignition off and the pedal traveled to the floor again.
It was possible to pump the pedal to the firm point again.
There was another man on the track who made the suggestion that it is the main, master, cylinder problem.
I had nothing to do but abort the track sessions and go 270 miles back to New York, where I lived. There was no problem with braking on the high way; I even tried some on speed of 90 mph.
The main or master cylinder was changed in a couple of days.
I went to 2 days even at Shenandoah. Everything was perfect. I get use to the car more and more and switched the PSM off.
I drive in advanced groups at all the tracks and drive hard on the car.
I’m not really very clean with the turn in points and usually start turning earlier and thus increase the throttle application earlier in the turn to keep the speed and “fight with the car” often overseeing and braking hard, and short, and some mechanics thought that because of that the overheating happened. I personally wasn’t agreeing with them feeling that there is some other issue.
After the Shenandoah I immediately drove to Thunderbolt and next morning was able to drive 2 sessions without problems with PSM on. There were only 2 run groups, so 30 min on track, 30 min off. Quite a stress to the machine. After the third session I was sitting in the cooling off car and pressed the brake pedal and it was traveling to the floor again. After pumping became hard and then surrendered to the floor under the foot pressure.
I started the 4th session caution and turn off the PSM, but quit very soon feeling that the braking pedal is started surrendering slightly again after hard braking.

Next the Titanium Shims were added to my calipers to deal with excessive heat, the brake lines were bled thoroughly again with Motul RBF 600.

I went to the Glen, last year I had 39 track days, and on the third sessions everything was back again.
I quit and went home angry to the Porsche f… engineers.

I spent couple of days reading diff. articles about such problems with Caymans and now I’m looking for people who already dealt with it and want to know the result.

There are a few suggestions I picked up from what I read.

1. Change to expensive Bosch ABS Racing System.
2. To find some other less expensive Racing aftermarket ABS System.
3. Find the way to cool down the fluid before it gets to the original ABS.
4. To trade the car in for BMW M3 2006 which I had before and loved it.

So anybody, who already went through such problem and solve it successfully in any of the first 3 solutions, please share the experience. Help me and others who is already desperate and those who are going to get in to the troubles sooner or later in the future.

Or is it something different and not ABS at all?

Thank you,
Lev.

[dende890]

Hello,

I have Cayman S 2007. Just bought it in mid Feb. with 11,000 miles.
I modified the suspension, brakes, etc…, but it is not important.
I mostly use it for tracks from VIR to W.Glen. It happened at the Watkins Glen when I pit after a session and the car cooled off slightly. I seat in the car with ignition off and pressed the brake pedal. To my surprise the pedal easily traveled to the floor. I started pumping the pedal and it became firm again. It happened that Spencer Cox from Farmbacher Loles was at the track with a client and he as a generous man bled the whole systems, inner and outer. He also made a suggestion that it is an ABS failure and I have to change it to the Racing Unit which is very costly. Now I know that the unit cost $10,675 without installation. Back to the Glen.
The pedal was firm again as it suppose to be. I went to another session and everything was okay during the run. But after pit in I turned the ignition off, wait a few minutes, pressed the brake pedal and to my surprise it surrenders again. After pumping it became firm again. I decided not to do anything this time and went to the track for the next session in an hour. I drive hard as usual but with alert senses towards the brakes. Everything was working perfect, however after 10-12 minutes I stated feeling that after the long straight where I reached 130+ mph the brake pedal started feeling like going some more distance then usual. After some less speed on shorter straights but still hard braking I felt the same and quit driving. With Spencer we went to the Porsche dealership which was with their team of GTs on the track at the time, they immediately connected the computer, checked the system but there was no any troubles found. By the way, ABS or PSM lights were never on. I drove with PSM “on” since I never driven Porsches yet and as I said it was my 3rd day with this car on track.
After that Spencer bled whole system again and I just drove 100 yards, stopped the car switched the ignition off and the pedal traveled to the floor again.
It was possible to pump the pedal to the firm point again.
There was another man on the track who made the suggestion that it is the main, master, cylinder problem.
I had nothing to do but abort the track sessions and go 270 miles back to New York, where I lived. There was no problem with braking on the high way; I even tried some on speed of 90 mph.
The main or master cylinder was changed in a couple of days.
I went to 2 days even at Shenandoah. Everything was perfect. I get use to the car more and more and switched the PSM off.
I drive in advanced groups at all the tracks and drive hard on the car.
I’m not really very clean with the turn in points and usually start turning earlier and thus increase the throttle application earlier in the turn to keep the speed and “fight with the car” often overseeing and braking hard, and short, and some mechanics thought that because of that the overheating happened. I personally wasn’t agreeing with them feeling that there is some other issue.
After the Shenandoah I immediately drove to Thunderbolt and next morning was able to drive 2 sessions without problems with PSM on. There were only 2 run groups, so 30 min on track, 30 min off. Quite a stress to the machine. After the third session I was sitting in the cooling off car and pressed the brake pedal and it was traveling to the floor again. After pumping became hard and then surrendered to the floor under the foot pressure.
I started the 4th session caution and turn off the PSM, but quit very soon feeling that the braking pedal is started surrendering slightly again after hard braking.

Next the Titanium Shims were added to my calipers to deal with excessive heat, the brake lines were bled thoroughly again with Motul RBF 600.

I went to the Glen, last year I had 39 track days, and on the third sessions everything was back again.
I quit and went home angry to the Porsche f… engineers.

I spent couple of days reading diff. articles about such problems with Caymans and now I’m looking for people who already dealt with it and want to know the result.

There are a few suggestions I picked up from what I read.

1. Change to expensive Bosch ABS Racing System.
2. To find some other less expensive Racing aftermarket ABS System.
3. Find the way to cool down the fluid before it gets to the original ABS.
4. To trade the car in for BMW M3 2006 which I had before and loved it.

So anybody, who already went through such problem and solve it successfully in any of the first 3 solutions, please share the experience. Help me and others who is already desperate and those who are going to get in to the troubles sooner or later in the future.

Or is it something different and not ABS at all?

Thank you,
Lev.

[jm1495]

Can this be moved to off topic?

[exFSAE]

Probably just from living in Crooklyn.

[J. Vinella]

Let this be a lesson to never purchase a car that the owner said was only raced a few times.

To give some constructive feedback. Sounds like you are boiling your brake fluid. You said that you finally put some quality brake fluid in the system "Motul RBF 600" and the system was good for 39 track days. Then it came back.

Brake fluid absorbs moisture and the boiling point drops. Racing brake fluids are great right out of the can but like any brake fluid they turn "wet" overtime, that is why on real racecars the fluid is changed often.

I might have totally misinterpreted this section so all above might be useless: "I went to the Glen, last year I had 39 track days, and on the third sessions everything was back again."

Second to move this to off topic.

[dende890]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by J. Vinella:
Let this be a lesson to never purchase a car that the owner said was only raced a few times.

To give some constructive feedback. Sounds like you are boiling your brake fluid. You said that you finally put some quality brake fluid in the system "Motul RBF 600" and the system was good for 39 track days. Then it came back.


Brake fluid absorbs moisture and the boiling point drops. Racing brake fluids are great right out of the can but like any brake fluid they turn "wet" overtime, that is why on real racecars the fluid is changed often.

I might have totally misinterpreted this section so all above might be useless: "I went to the Glen, last year I had 39 track days, and on the third sessions everything was back again."
You read the article without attention to the matter.
In the very first sentence I stated that:" I have Cayman S 2007. Just bought it in mid Feb. with 11,000 miles.
In 1/3 of the article it said:"it was my 3rd day with this car on track."
It was M3 2006 that went through 39 days of track:"BMW M3 2006 which I had before and loved it."
This sentence really not so good and bewildered you: "I went to the Glen, last year I had 39 track days, and on the third sessions everything was back again."
During these unfortunate days on track we changed at least 4 times barking fluid and always used the best ones, you think Spencer Cox from Farnbacher Loles knows less then you about fluids, or I who had 39 track days last year had no idea about the brakes maintenance.

And I was asking very clear the solution from people EXPERIENCED ALREADY IN SOLVING these 3
options:
"1. Change to expensive Bosch ABS Racing System.
2. To find some other less expensive Racing aftermarket ABS System.
3. Find the way to cool down the fluid before it gets to the original ABS."



Second to move this to off topic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
To move this topic anywhere is difficult for me because tell you the truth, it is a very complicated site to navigate, for me at least.
Send me the link please where to move it.

I have my own business web site and it is extremely simple to navigate, concise in info and even a blind man will easily find the way there, but I was perfecting it for months and months.
Look for yourself, it is :
www.russian-antique.com (http://www.russian-antique.com)

All the bast to the critics.
Lev
Russian, like you like to say in America:"F...n emigrant."

[dende890]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DART-CG:
Hmm, first of all you should be aware that the "f.." Porsche engineers didn't design the brake system for the Cayman and Boxter http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
At the moment I finish my internship and diploma thesis at Porsche's suspension and brake development in Weissach and we only make suggestions to Brembo and the real designer Valment in Finnland as Porsche concentrates primarily on the development of the brake system of the 911, Panamera, Cayenne, racing derivates and the LMP prototypes.

Concerning your problems with the brake system I suppose that you have (as already mentioned) problems with your brake fluid OR even more with the brake disc.
First of all I would try another racing fluid like Castrol SRF. The Motul stuffed isn't recommended very often.
My personal guess is that you have some serious problems with disc coning. The Cayman is originally designed for "lifestyle" purposes, not for the racetrack like a 911. This means that your discs aren't designed for racing intentions, too.
If you use the steel brakes instead of the ceramic PCCB-dics your discs will expand in a 3D manner which ends in disc coning. This is no major problem in performance as your pads will compensate this motion to a certain degree. But when you cool down your brakes during you turns the disc will move back to the original position a few milimeters away from the brake pads. Thats why you have to pump the pads back to the disc.
When racing on track you have huge gradii of temperature, for example from the start and finish corner to the end of Watkins Glens' back straight. I think this is why you even feel the "long pedal" during driving, too.
My suggestion: New (racing) brake discs or the PCCB ones.

Another suggestion on driving itself:
Why the hell do you perform an early apex when you have problems with the turn in point?? It is exactly the wrong way and puts you into some serious risks (which you already described)!
In your case aiming for a late apex would lead to a mucher safer track out and you could gradually shift your turn-in-point forward to get familiar with the limit and to aim for an optimal track out of the corner to carry way more speed.
And despite reducing lap time you would treat your tires and brakes much better than you do now http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the very second sentence:" I modified the suspension, brakes, etc…, but it is not important."
Second, the car sold under the name "Porsche" and thus I don't care who were really designed the brakes.

I also was not not asking for SUGGESTIONS.

I was asking very clear for the solution from people EXPERIENCED ALREADY IN SOLVING these 3
options:
"1. Change to expensive Bosch ABS Racing System.
2. To find some other less expensive Racing aftermarket ABS System.
3. Find the way to cool down the fluid before it gets to the original ABS."

About the way I'm driving is not really the matter to you, I'll fix my style.

[Zac]

if you aren't looking for suggestions what are you doing here?

This is a forum for starving college students that build their own formula style race cars as a design project. I doubt you are going to find too many people here that have experience with upgrading the abs system on a $60,000 German sportscar.

I doubt that the soft pedal issues you are experiencing are related to PSM or ABS. Switching to an aftermarket system is probably overkill/a waste of money.

With regards to #3, adapting to a less hamfisted driving style will probably help quite a bit. So would keeping fresh racing fluid in the brake system.

[frenzy]

hey "DART-CG", during my time at the EZW I was told that informations on outsourced parts are somewhat "confidential" http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[dende890]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DART-CG:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dende890:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DART-CG:
Hmm, first of all you should be aware that the "f.." Porsche engineers didn't design the brake system for the Cayman and Boxter http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
At the moment I finish my internship and diploma thesis at Porsche's suspension and brake development in Weissach and we only make suggestions to Brembo and the real designer Valment in Finnland as Porsche concentrates primarily on the development of the brake system of the 911, Panamera, Cayenne, racing derivates and the LMP prototypes.

Concerning your problems with the brake system I suppose that you have (as already mentioned) problems with your brake fluid OR even more with the brake disc.
First of all I would try another racing fluid like Castrol SRF. The Motul stuffed isn't recommended very often.
My personal guess is that you have some serious problems with disc coning. The Cayman is originally designed for "lifestyle" purposes, not for the racetrack like a 911. This means that your discs aren't designed for racing intentions, too.
If you use the steel brakes instead of the ceramic PCCB-dics your discs will expand in a 3D manner which ends in disc coning. This is no major problem in performance as your pads will compensate this motion to a certain degree. But when you cool down your brakes during you turns the disc will move back to the original position a few milimeters away from the brake pads. Thats why you have to pump the pads back to the disc.
When racing on track you have huge gradii of temperature, for example from the start and finish corner to the end of Watkins Glens' back straight. I think this is why you even feel the "long pedal" during driving, too.
My suggestion: New (racing) brake discs or the PCCB ones.

Another suggestion on driving itself:
Why the hell do you perform an early apex when you have problems with the turn in point?? It is exactly the wrong way and puts you into some serious risks (which you already described)!
In your case aiming for a late apex would lead to a mucher safer track out and you could gradually shift your turn-in-point forward to get familiar with the limit and to aim for an optimal track out of the corner to carry way more speed.
And despite reducing lap time you would treat your tires and brakes much better than you do now http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the very second sentence:" I modified the suspension, brakes, etc…, but it is not important."
Second, the car sold under the name "Porsche" and thus I don't care who were really designed the brakes.

I also was not not asking for SUGGESTIONS.

I was asking very clear for the solution from people EXPERIENCED ALREADY IN SOLVING these 3
options:
"1. Change to expensive Bosch ABS Racing System.
2. To find some other less expensive Racing aftermarket ABS System.
3. Find the way to cool down the fluid before it gets to the original ABS."

About the way I'm driving is not really the matter to you, I'll fix my style. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



\annoyed mode on

Dear Mr. PuSsy Mode-on. Why did I just waste 15 minutes of my life to give you a hint at the real source of your brake-related problem to stop you from wasting money for a unreliable racing ABS many teams here went desperate with?
Is asking if your problem “ is something different and not ABS-related at all” not the same as asking for suggestions? Why did you log on to this forum? What did you expect from students and engineers like us?

If Mr Cox saw your switched on PSM button and then gave you the advice to buy some beautiful pink underwear to solve the brake pedal problem you certainly would have logged on www.pink-lady.com/forum (http://www.pink-lady.com/forum) only to grumble at all girls who try to give you a more expedient advice while bragging with your great skills and money.
I think there are enough forums which suit better to you. Enough time wasted.


\annoyed mode off </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all I got to this forum by mistake.
I'm an immigrant from Russia, 58+ years old, not a computer wizard and I have difficulties with many web sites. They are done by young people and quite difficult to navigate there.

I saw that there is a discussion on this forum about the ABS system and by my Russian nature simply thought that those people are interested in difficult and rare problems with such systems.
I also thought that American young people similar to Russians and ready to help a man in troubles.
I was mistaken.

To call me the Mr. Pussy Mode did not make me angry, just made me laugh.
To call a man who emigrated from his country at age 37 with kids, wife and mother. The man who lived very prosperous life in Russia but was always under Government investigations and decided to forefight a 4 bedroom and 3 bedroom apartments in the best location in the city of 1,500,000 people,
2 cars, very successful garment business, hundreds of friends, relatives, the mistresses and a lot more and moved to USA having only $360 for the family of 4, no friends or relatives to help.
It was prohibited in the Soviet Union emigrate with more then $90 for a family member and all you possessed became the State property. In other words you lose, emigrating, everything, all that you have and lose FOREVER.
They take your citizenship and you never can come back to Russia again. It was before 1991 when emigration became not an act of your country treason and you were not counted an enemy of the State. You who grew up across 7-11 store know nothing about life.
You brained washed mind think that Russia was a piece of shit and people were wearing animal pelts.
Before I married at age 29 I fucked more then 200 girls, not prostitutes like many of you, no, girls and most of them were very nice looking girls, we had no prostitution then. I had friends from city biggest crooks and gangsters to very intelligent professors of Math. I lived always a very adventures life. Traveling on businesses all over Russia which was 4 times bigger then USA then.
I was in the Army for 2 years and it is not like American Army with comfort and visits to the cities. Not talking that I was in Soviet prison where you would not survive for more then 3 days. I finished 5.5 year college of construction engineering with PhD. I was 18 years old, boxing, won 15 fights and lost 2 out of 17, one I lost to the guy who was 27 years old and one fight lost because of injury. If I punched a guy about 200 pbs. during the numerous street fights, he almost had no chance to withstand it. I took a podium in 1975 in all Russia Auto Rally where out of 32 equipages in our class 1 was killed during the racing and only 8 could finish, so harsh was the 1600 miles in 2 days on the cars. I made almost a fortune in Russian measures out of different enterprises during the years I lived there and this is why the Government wants me to be in prison. And this is why I eventually decided to leave despite loosing everything.
I came to this country at 37 and couldn’t even ask what is the time now. No English what so ever.
Now I read Dostoevsky in English and writing everything myself.
I have my business web site which is perfect, you will never be lost there, it is so simple, go to www.russian-antique.com (http://www.russian-antique.com)
I raised 3 sons; they all have finished colleges and having their own business drive BMW 335 xi 2008, Range Rover Sport 2007, Porsche Turbo 911 2008, and we just sold BMW M5 2007, not counting my Cayman S for which my 2 oldest sons (27, 26 years old) gave me $20,000 towards the purchase in respect and as a birthday present, and later bought me 2 Cobra racing seats.
I wish you have 3 sons and they will respect you so much.
Sure I’m a Pussy.
I don’t have time to list what I have done in my life; you will be listening with open mouth for days and days. I lived in Germany where I managed to revitalize a dying business which now is quite prosperous.

Sure, I’m a pussy, but in the size that can swallow a modern huge aircraft carrier.

Lev.

[Drew Price]

FYI most vacuum boosted braking systems in street cars and pressure reserve ABS systems will allow the pedal to go soft once the car is shut off after a few pedal pumps. You have enough vacuum in the reservoir to provide a few vacuum assisted stops should the engine die when the car is moving, but after that it's only mechanical advantage, which in a street car is pretty huuuuge compared to a 'real' racing car (read: LIGHT) without boosted brakes, where the driver doesn't mind 150-200 lbf pedal force.

At least all street cars I have ever done this with. Every one of my cars does this with the engine off. Firm for one or two pumps, then goes squishy. Start car, shut off, same story.

A brake pedal that starts firm and then goes squishy is (nearly) always going to be a fluid boiling issue.



I will now do my favorite thing in the world, and refer you to an excellent book by my favorite, Carroll Smith, Engineer to Win, pages 189-192. Page 192 in particular will interest you because he specifically tells his drivers to do a cool-down lap after their runs to help keep the braking system from heat-soaking and boiling the fluid in the calipers (which is bad for the fluid) and to allow everything else to cool down a little.



What you need to do if the pedal is going squishy once everything is all hot and bothered from the fluid in the calipers boiling is to FIRST:

DETERMINE THE TEMPERATURE THE CALIPERS ARE ACTUALLY REACING WHEN THE PEDAL STARTS GOING SOFT, so go out and drive it hard, bring it into the pits, and let everything heat soak and you think the pedal is going squishy, and buy or borrow an infra-red temp gun (or get those trick adhesive color chart temp indicators that AP Racing makes - you are talking about spending $10k on a racing ABS system [which is not your culprit in this case] so I can assume you can afford a nice temp gun for $150) and see what the temp is actually coming to.


THEN!:

1) Go to fresh new brake fluid with a higher boiling point.

If none is available, then:

2) Improve cooling to your brake CALIPERS, which can be better ducts in the car side, a water spray duct-air-cooling system or possibly even different wheels with more air-space or pumping action....

3) Insulate the calipers from the hot bits in the system better - Page 190 in Smith's book shows a nice little diagram of how to make ceramic / carbon / Bakelite piston insulators that isolate the pad from the caliper pistons.



When you put new fluid in, make sure to get all the old fluid out, and all the new in. Bleeding the system with one of the colored fluids (like the blue colored ATE 'Super Blue') before putting in Wilwood 570 or the other 600* fluids makes it really easy to see when you've got all the old fluid out. Only use fresh fluid from a new sealed bottle, if you don't use the whole bottle, DON'T USE IT NEXT TIME for the brakes - it's ok to save for use in the clutch, but toss it if you are in danger of using it for the brakes. Once it's been opened, it'll start absorbing water vapor from the air and it's boiling point goes down down down.



ALSO as was mentioned above, this is a forum of student designers, not nearly all of whom are weekend racers, you will get lots of oppinions by posting here, so of your original options:


<STRIKE>1. Change to expensive Bosch ABS Racing System.
2. To find some other less expensive Racing aftermarket ABS System.
3. Find the way to cool down the fluid before it gets to the original ABS</STRIKE>

ABS is NOT YOUR PROBLEM!!! It's boiling the brake fluid in the calipers. BUT you won't know that for sure until you get some temperature measurements.



Lastly, that's all just my oppinion, since I'm a college student with aging Saab 900 Turbos, who has never owned a Cayman to use for track days.

Just because your car says Porsche on it doesn't mean you're getting Porsch LMP prototype racer technology, especially since it doesn't say GT3 or GT2 on the side - it says Cayman, a very tidy, very attractive sports coupe meant for the street. You will invariable find limits in the stock hardware if you are doing extensive track driving in hot weather on very high speed endurance road courses.

I can't think of a single factory stock braking system that would be up to the task of extended periods of driving at Watkin's Glen. That's why there's a racing aftermarket supply industry to sell you that $10k racing ABS pump and controller in the first place.



Best,
Drew

[2BWise]

Are you using full ABS in all braking zones?This is the only way I can see this being an ABS related issue and like the others it sounds as though this is related to the base brakes. With that said no expense ABS unit is going to do anything different if you're not in ABS. If you're in full ABS in every braking zone, you shouldn't. Threshold brake jsut below the ABS activation threshold. The system is generally very stout, but if you're stomping into ABS everywhere you'll probably work the system very hard and get it very hot, but with no fault being set you're still not failing the system. Learn to brake better and less and be easy on the car and the issue will should go away.

Most likely, you're running with PSM on, which uses the brakes. You're probably overheating the brakes.

[2BWise]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Drew Price:
I can't think of a single factory stock braking system that would be up to the task of extended periods of driving at Watkin's Glen. That's why there's a racing aftermarket supply industry to sell you that $10k racing ABS pump and controller in the first place.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can and know of systems that do it readily. The Porsche is one of them. Again, PSM is most likely the culprit. Realize that the Bosch race ABS comes from a company that supplies ABS and ESP as to OEMs. Its not very likely that the race ABS unit is a one off and not based off the OEM supplied pieces.

[Drew Price]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dende890:
I don’t have time to list what I have done in my life; you will be listening with open mouth for days and days. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Huh, from the amount you just wrote trying to justify yourself to a college student, I'd disagree with that statement.


I don't know where the fuck you come off of, but coming onto some new exchange of information, requesting help, then insulting anyone who happens to have a different point of view DOES happen to be something that I associate with the old Soviet ways, my happening to grow up across from a 7-11 has nothing to do with the issue.

That is not an OK way to behave, or so I was taught.

Regardless of how you found this site, you're still responsible for how you act, and you just lost most of any amount of credibility you had trying to brag about all the babushka babes you had back home, none of us could care less.

If you're going to ask for help, you have to do what we all learned a long time ago, to take everything with a grain of salt, think the proposed solutions over, then decide how to proceed -


......at least that's how engineers think about problems.



Why don't you start here, with the StopTech technical papers, they're excellent, and might help you make a more informed decision,

StopTech White Papers (http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/tech_white_papers.shtml)

....since you have 15 mins to sit and type out all the reasons that a young professional who has engineering experience working with the OEM who built your car about why he should respect you more because you can recognize a shitty situation (your being a threat to the Soviet government, and being in danger of going to prison for your capitalist ideals) and getting out of it.



Best,
Drew

[Horace]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dende890:
Hello,

I have Cayman S 2007. Just bought it in mid Feb. with 11,000 miles.
I modified the suspension, brakes, etc…, but it is not important.
I mostly use it for tracks from VIR to W.Glen. It happened at the Watkins Glen when I pit after a session and the car cooled off slightly. I seat in the car with ignition off and pressed the brake pedal. To my surprise the pedal easily traveled to the floor. I started pumping the pedal and it became firm again. It happened that Spencer Cox from Farmbacher Loles was at the track with a client and he as a generous man bled the whole systems, inner and outer. He also made a suggestion that it is an ABS failure and I have to change it to the Racing Unit which is very costly. Now I know that the unit cost $10,675 without installation. Back to the Glen.
The pedal was firm again as it suppose to be. I went to another session and everything was okay during the run. But after pit in I turned the ignition off, wait a few minutes, pressed the brake pedal and to my surprise it surrenders again. After pumping it became firm again. I decided not to do anything this time and went to the track for the next session in an hour. I drive hard as usual but with alert senses towards the brakes. Everything was working perfect, however after 10-12 minutes I stated feeling that after the long straight where I reached 130+ mph the brake pedal started feeling like going some more distance then usual. After some less speed on shorter straights but still hard braking I felt the same and quit driving. With Spencer we went to the Porsche dealership which was with their team of GTs on the track at the time, they immediately connected the computer, checked the system but there was no any troubles found. By the way, ABS or PSM lights were never on. I drove with PSM “on” since I never driven Porsches yet and as I said it was my 3rd day with this car on track.
After that Spencer bled whole system again and I just drove 100 yards, stopped the car switched the ignition off and the pedal traveled to the floor again.
It was possible to pump the pedal to the firm point again.
There was another man on the track who made the suggestion that it is the main, master, cylinder problem.
I had nothing to do but abort the track sessions and go 270 miles back to New York, where I lived. There was no problem with braking on the high way; I even tried some on speed of 90 mph.
The main or master cylinder was changed in a couple of days.
I went to 2 days even at Shenandoah. Everything was perfect. I get use to the car more and more and switched the PSM off.
I drive in advanced groups at all the tracks and drive hard on the car.
I’m not really very clean with the turn in points and usually start turning earlier and thus increase the throttle application earlier in the turn to keep the speed and “fight with the car” often overseeing and braking hard, and short, and some mechanics thought that because of that the overheating happened. I personally wasn’t agreeing with them feeling that there is some other issue.
After the Shenandoah I immediately drove to Thunderbolt and next morning was able to drive 2 sessions without problems with PSM on. There were only 2 run groups, so 30 min on track, 30 min off. Quite a stress to the machine. After the third session I was sitting in the cooling off car and pressed the brake pedal and it was traveling to the floor again. After pumping became hard and then surrendered to the floor under the foot pressure.
I started the 4th session caution and turn off the PSM, but quit very soon feeling that the braking pedal is started surrendering slightly again after hard braking.

Next the Titanium Shims were added to my calipers to deal with excessive heat, the brake lines were bled thoroughly again with Motul RBF 600.

I went to the Glen, last year I had 39 track days, and on the third sessions everything was back again.
I quit and went home angry to the Porsche f… engineers.

I spent couple of days reading diff. articles about such problems with Caymans and now I’m looking for people who already dealt with it and want to know the result.

There are a few suggestions I picked up from what I read.

1. Change to expensive Bosch ABS Racing System.
2. To find some other less expensive Racing aftermarket ABS System.
3. Find the way to cool down the fluid before it gets to the original ABS.
4. To trade the car in for BMW M3 2006 which I had before and loved it.

So anybody, who already went through such problem and solve it successfully in any of the first 3 solutions, please share the experience. Help me and others who is already desperate and those who are going to get in to the troubles sooner or later in the future.

Or is it something different and not ABS at all?

Thank you,
Lev. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Lev,

I also have a Cayman S 2007 and had the exact same issues last year while racing. I changed to the expensive Bosch ABS Racing System and it solved the problem happily and easily. It is costly but it made the problem solving part very easy.

Best,
Horace

[fixitmattman]

I would recommend the first option. If that doesn't work at least you'll be faster from the lighter wallet with all the money you'll waste.

Or you could heed the good advice already posted and save a bajillion dollars.

[dende890]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Drew Price:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dende890:
I don’t have time to list what I have done in my life; you will be listening with open mouth for days and days. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Huh, from the amount you just wrote trying to justify yourself to a college student, I'd disagree with that statement.


I don't know where the fuck you come off of, but coming onto some new exchange of information, requesting help, then insulting anyone who happens to have a different point of view DOES happen to be something that I associate with the old Soviet ways, my happening to grow up across from a 7-11 has nothing to do with the issue.

That is not an OK way to behave, or so I was taught.

Regardless of how you found this site, you're still responsible for how you act, and you just lost most of any amount of credibility you had trying to brag about all the babushka babes you had back home, none of us could care less.

If you're going to ask for help, you have to do what we all learned a long time ago, to take everything with a grain of salt, think the proposed solutions over, then decide how to proceed -


......at least that's how engineers think about problems.



Why don't you start here, with the StopTech technical papers, they're excellent, and might help you make a more informed decision,

StopTech White Papers (http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/tech_white_papers.shtml)

....since you have 15 mins to sit and type out all the reasons that a young professional who has engineering experience working with the OEM who built your car about why he should respect you more because you can recognize a shitty situation (your being a threat to the Soviet government, and being in danger of going to prison for your capitalist ideals) and getting out of it.



Best,
Drew </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There was no different point of views, the student called me a PUSSY, just because I was looking for the help in the wrong place.

I didn't deserve to be called the pussy by somebody who don't know me and for something that really shouldn't be even reproach.
For a GOOD engineer anything that relates to his profession is interesting at any time in any place.
I just simply gave him some minuscule info about me from which I think no reason to call me P....

And you are trying without probably reading all the replies to me to judge my behavior and insult too saying something like babuska babes.

What is it with you young men? Little amount of sex or no sex at all, so you resided to have it in emails, or just typical hate for immigrants ?
But all came to US, at some point everybody was an immigrant, insulting me on this ground is insulting all your ancestors.
Leave me alone, I'm old enough to be yours grandfather and how ever I behave myself I still deserve some respect, you will understand it by age.

[dende890]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Horace:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dende890:
Hello,

I have Cayman S 2007. Just bought it in mid Feb. with 11,000 miles.
I modified the suspension, brakes, etc…, but it is not important.
I mostly use it for tracks from VIR to W.Glen. It happened at the Watkins Glen when I pit after a session and the car cooled off slightly. I seat in the car with ignition off and pressed the brake pedal. To my surprise the pedal easily traveled to the floor. I started pumping the pedal and it became firm again. It happened that Spencer Cox from Farmbacher Loles was at the track with a client and he as a generous man bled the whole systems, inner and outer. He also made a suggestion that it is an ABS failure and I have to change it to the Racing Unit which is very costly. Now I know that the unit cost $10,675 without installation. Back to the Glen.
The pedal was firm again as it suppose to be. I went to another session and everything was okay during the run. But after pit in I turned the ignition off, wait a few minutes, pressed the brake pedal and to my surprise it surrenders again. After pumping it became firm again. I decided not to do anything this time and went to the track for the next session in an hour. I drive hard as usual but with alert senses towards the brakes. Everything was working perfect, however after 10-12 minutes I stated feeling that after the long straight where I reached 130+ mph the brake pedal started feeling like going some more distance then usual. After some less speed on shorter straights but still hard braking I felt the same and quit driving. With Spencer we went to the Porsche dealership which was with their team of GTs on the track at the time, they immediately connected the computer, checked the system but there was no any troubles found. By the way, ABS or PSM lights were never on. I drove with PSM “on” since I never driven Porsches yet and as I said it was my 3rd day with this car on track.
After that Spencer bled whole system again and I just drove 100 yards, stopped the car switched the ignition off and the pedal traveled to the floor again.
It was possible to pump the pedal to the firm point again.
There was another man on the track who made the suggestion that it is the main, master, cylinder problem.
I had nothing to do but abort the track sessions and go 270 miles back to New York, where I lived. There was no problem with braking on the high way; I even tried some on speed of 90 mph.
The main or master cylinder was changed in a couple of days.
I went to 2 days even at Shenandoah. Everything was perfect. I get use to the car more and more and switched the PSM off.
I drive in advanced groups at all the tracks and drive hard on the car.
I’m not really very clean with the turn in points and usually start turning earlier and thus increase the throttle application earlier in the turn to keep the speed and “fight with the car” often overseeing and braking hard, and short, and some mechanics thought that because of that the overheating happened. I personally wasn’t agreeing with them feeling that there is some other issue.
After the Shenandoah I immediately drove to Thunderbolt and next morning was able to drive 2 sessions without problems with PSM on. There were only 2 run groups, so 30 min on track, 30 min off. Quite a stress to the machine. After the third session I was sitting in the cooling off car and pressed the brake pedal and it was traveling to the floor again. After pumping became hard and then surrendered to the floor under the foot pressure.
I started the 4th session caution and turn off the PSM, but quit very soon feeling that the braking pedal is started surrendering slightly again after hard braking.

Next the Titanium Shims were added to my calipers to deal with excessive heat, the brake lines were bled thoroughly again with Motul RBF 600.

I went to the Glen, last year I had 39 track days, and on the third sessions everything was back again.
I quit and went home angry to the Porsche f… engineers.

I spent couple of days reading diff. articles about such problems with Caymans and now I’m looking for people who already dealt with it and want to know the result.

There are a few suggestions I picked up from what I read.

1. Change to expensive Bosch ABS Racing System.
2. To find some other less expensive Racing aftermarket ABS System.
3. Find the way to cool down the fluid before it gets to the original ABS.
4. To trade the car in for BMW M3 2006 which I had before and loved it.

So anybody, who already went through such problem and solve it successfully in any of the first 3 solutions, please share the experience. Help me and others who is already desperate and those who are going to get in to the troubles sooner or later in the future.

Or is it something different and not ABS at all?

Thank you,
Lev. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Lev,

I also have a Cayman S 2007 and had the exact same issues last year while racing. I changed to the expensive Bosch ABS Racing System and it solved the problem happily and easily. It is costly but it made the problem solving part very easy.

Best,
Horace </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you.

If I go for the racing Bosch ABS I'll have no money for HPDE events.
I'll try do drive without PSM on tracks. I never use Stability Control during my 39 track days last year on the BMW M3.
But Cayman is a very new car for me yet.

[dende890]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 2BWise:
Are you using full ABS in all braking zones?This is the only way I can see this being an ABS related issue and like the others it sounds as though this is related to the base brakes. With that said no expense ABS unit is going to do anything different if you're not in ABS. If you're in full ABS in every braking zone, you shouldn't. Threshold brake jsut below the ABS activation threshold. The system is generally very stout, but if you're stomping into ABS everywhere you'll probably work the system very hard and get it very hot, but with no fault being set you're still not failing the system. Learn to brake better and less and be easy on the car and the issue will should go away.

Most likely, you're running with PSM on, which uses the brakes. You're probably overheating the brakes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
During braking the ABS quite rare kicks in, however the PSM, you right, working sometimes and that might be the problem.
I'l try to drive without PSM.

Thank you,
Lev.

[Zac]

Does anyone else think it's hilarious that the first person this goober ripped on for being a snot-nosed American is actually from Germany?

Also, if 10 grand is too much to drop on an abs system, why not try some of the low cost tips people have posted here first instead of getting your former soviet issue panties in a bunch? It's not like cheap temperature guns, fresh brake fluid, and taking a cool down lap are outlandish ideas or huge capital investments.

Of course, if you just want to throw money at the problem, if you give Drew and I the comparatively low sum of $5000 we will be glad to take care of all your brake pedal issues.

[Mike Macie]

There's nothing i love more than hot babushka immigrants.

[dende890]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Zac:
Does anyone else think it's hilarious that the first person this goober ripped on for being a snot-nosed American is actually from Germany?

Also, if 10 grand is too much to drop on an abs system, why not try some of the low cost tips people have posted here first instead of getting your former soviet issue panties in a bunch? It's not like cheap temperature guns, fresh brake fluid, and taking a cool down lap are outlandish ideas or huge capital investments.

Of course, if you just want to throw money at the problem, if you give Drew and I the comparatively low sum of $5000 we will be glad to take care of all your brake pedal issues. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why are you so aggressive in your judgment and so negative?
I didn't say any where that I'm going to install the Bosch ABS.
However even if I go this way it is my money and I can waste them on anything I like.
If you are low in the money department it is your problem but I think that by the age of 58 you will be able to spend substantially more comparing what you could spend now.
I'm thinking after reading literally hundreds of articles that I can solve the problem by turning off the PSM and thus unloading the ABS.
I already have slotted disks, Padig black pads, titanium shims, GT3 air scoops.
The brakes never let me down, it is just the unusual distance the pedal travels after at least of very hard driving with 30 min. brake in between which is not enough to cool down.
But in Porsche forum is an article from a man who lost brakes completely at the Glen racing even. And safety is first, you will get it by age.
Thanks everybody who tried to help me.
Lev.

[dende890]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike Macie:
There's nothing i love more than hot babushka immigrants. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There is nothing I like more then a future red neck engineer and his black president.

[dende890]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dende890:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike Macie:
There's nothing i love more than hot babushka immigrants. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There is nothing I like more then a future red neck engineer and his black president. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Another one.
Judging by your last name you are representing Polish immigration to the US.
There is an old anecdote about Polaks.
An Arab sees that a Polish guy is carrying a door from a car walking through a desert.
He come and ask the polish guy:"Whay are you caring the door?"
The Polish answers: "When it became very hot I can open the window."

[mok]

Oh come on, don't let the discussion die! Concentrate on the hard facts... so let's go back to the 200 girls http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Wesley]

How's that been since you got to America? Get 200 more yet?

If you came to this site by mistake, you have problems navigating the internet, not web sites. The internet wasn't designed by young Americans. It was invented by Al Gore.

You may have laid 200 women, but I've gotten a higher score than you in Tetris. You know where that was invented? Russia.

[Kevin Dunn]

Being pretty confident that I have nothing to post here that would be better than a majority of the other posts...I just wanted to say that this is the most entertaining thread I've found on here yet.

PROCEED w/ the anti-American, immigration and racial comments! I wonder what would happen if I type in "Cayman S ABS Failure" into google...I'm sure FSAE.com would NOT come up.

[Drew Price]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kevin Dunn:
....I wonder what would happen if I type in "Cayman S ABS Failure" into google...I'm sure FSAE.com would NOT come up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



Ummmmm....... unfortunately it does now....



http://lh3.ggpht.com/_JNlhJgnxXHk/SiduBra1u4I/AAAAAAAABJk/D7naR9-dHGE/s1024/cayman_retarded_failure.JPG



Best,
Drew

[dende890]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kevin Dunn:
Being pretty confident that I have nothing to post here that would be better than a majority of the other posts...I just wanted to say that this is the most entertaining thread I've found on here yet.

PROCEED w/ the anti-American, immigration and racial comments! I wonder what would happen if I type in "Cayman S ABS Failure" into google...I'm sure FSAE.com would NOT come up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would like to discuss the racial matters with you young boys, because you might read something that will shock you and for a few intelligent minds could open a different horizon of the very important issue of the 21st century which could be the turning point of the evolution in whole - The Race.
However, seeing that most of the readers upset on my initial letter and some comments not relative to the site, I would like to ask you, who are more familiar to the Web Net, to direct me to the more appropriate site.
You know now how to do that - post the link.
Thanks to everybody,
Lev.

[Drew Price]

Try here first.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=cayman+s+abs+failure



Then maybe try the link right below the one bringing you to this site, on the forums at the site called PORSCHE PLANET???

I will throw out once again that I don't think your problem is ABS related, try searching for racing brake related problems in general, there are lots of racing forums out there.

And one more, that I posted above as well, the tech articles from Stoptech. This one in particular happens to be written by my once again favorite, CARROLL SMITH. Woooo.

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_i..._brakefluid_1a.shtml (http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_brakefluid_1a.shtml)


Best,
Drew

[ibanezplayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dende890:
...direct me to the more appropriate site.
You know now how to do that - post the link.
Thanks to everybody,
Lev. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lev. You will find some excellent info below:

RennTech (http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?act=home)

Rennlist (http://forums.rennlist.com/)

Roadfly (http://forums.roadfly.com/forums/porsche/porsche_cayman/)

Go to these forums, and SEARCH for the information you want. Someone else has had the same problems.

[dende890]

I have doe a lot of researches on all the sites you listed + some other without help.

Again, in concise form.
The brakes work perfect. But if I stop the car completely with running engine and keep moderate pressure on the brake pedal it will travel to the floor.
Then I pump 3-4 times and it is very firm, however if I still apply the pressure, bigger then the first time the pedal slowly, but surely surrenders to the floor again.

With engine "off" everything is the same but when I pump the pedal second time after it reaches the floor, the pedal will surrender and go down but not completely to the floor.

The car has Slotted rotors, Padig black pads, Castrol SRF fluid, Titanium shims in calipers, GT 3 Air scoops.

There is no outer leakage in the system.
The master braking cylinder was changed very recently without any difference to the problem.
I drove 10 track days with this car this year without any failure of the brakes but with that problem.
I just bought it in February.
When the brakes get hot, the pedal goes a bit longer, bust the stopping power is the same, high.
I’m afraid that at some point of hard braking the pedal will go to the floor.

Again, the braking is perfect everywhere!
The problem is what happened after the braking complete and what might happened on the track in the future.

There probably some internal bleeding (ABS, PSM) which goes to default after the pressure on the pedal is off.
Unfortunately I don't have an engineering knowledge how those devices work. However I'll try to find it on the Net.

Lev.

[Drew Price]

Lev,

I misunderstood your problem at first, I thought those conditions happened only when you had just come in from driving very hard and the brakes were heat-soaking in the pits from not being allowed to cool off enough, or that they had happened once on track while driving.

As long as the pedal stays hard (or even pretty firm) while you're driving with normal braking power, you're fine.

I think the situation you are describing it normal, and like you said, it may be some function of either the ABS or PSM circuits being able to bleed fluid around the master cylinder seals to over-ride or increase driver induced hydraulic pressure in the system.

If anything, the fixes we all described are addressing the wrong symptom, if anything is wrong, it could be the bleed circuit in the ABS pump, or possibly the master cylinder seals if there is no fluid weeping out the caliper piston seals.

Your fluid, pads, rotors, or thermal isolation shims would not fix this problem. The easiest thing to do is to ask on one of the Porsche formums of another Cayman owner if their car does the same thing, or even go to a Porsche dealer, and test drive another Cayman, and see if it does that just sitting and idling in the lot.

Best,
Drew

[dende890]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wesley:
How's that been since you got to America? Get 200 more yet?

If you came to this site by mistake, you have problems navigating the internet, not web sites. The internet wasn't designed by young Americans. It was invented by Al Gore.

You may have laid 200 women, but I've gotten a higher score than you in Tetris. You know where that was invented? Russia. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope you are wearing a condom playing Tetris.
By the way, my favorite game. Thanks God it was not invented yet when I f...ed the girls.

[dende890]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Drew Price:
Lev,

I misunderstood your problem at first, I thought those conditions happened only when you had just come in from driving very hard and the brakes were heat-soaking in the pits from not being allowed to cool off enough, or that they had happened once on track while driving.

Drew,



As long as the pedal stays hard (or even pretty firm) while you're driving with normal braking power, you're fine.

I think the situation you are describing it normal, and like you said, it may be some function of either the ABS or PSM circuits being able to bleed fluid around the master cylinder seals to over-ride or increase driver induced hydraulic pressure in the system.

If anything, the fixes we all described are addressing the wrong symptom, if anything is wrong, it could be the bleed circuit in the ABS pump, or possibly the master cylinder seals if there is no fluid weeping out the caliper piston seals.

Your fluid, pads, rotors, or thermal isolation shims would not fix this problem. The easiest thing to do is to ask on one of the Porsche formums of another Cayman owner if their car does the same thing, or even go to a Porsche dealer, and test drive another Cayman, and see if it does that just sitting and idling in the lot.

Best,
Drew </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I like you.
You are going to be a very important man in some big automobile company.
You are persistent and inquisitive man.
I seat in other Porches and Caymans.
The pedal goes down to the floor when the ignition is "off" but only for the first time.
After it was pumped it doesn't go to the floor.
It surrenders a bit, but not complitely.
To morrow I'll try to go to the nearest Porsche dealership and try a few cars if they let me do this.

I placed my letter in a few Porsche forums days ago but the respond is very low and not interesting at all.

[Drew Price]

Thanks, you certainly sound interesting yourself. And if you know anyone in the auto or motorsports industry hiring entry-level or recent graduate positions, I'll bounce you my resume, as it stands I might be working for a Saab Indy mechanic in LA for a while till the job market swings back (or someone with some backing and some balls buys Saab, then I'll be harassing them).

I do try to keep my ideologies and oppinions out of my engineering life, but sometimes it gets through. That's one of my favorite things about studying the sciences, is people from all different backgrounds can share so much and (hopefully) put their differences aside (within reason) for a while, and hold an intelligent conversation.

The gentleman from the Darmstadt team who posts as DART-CG above is also inquisitive and extremely good at what he does, maybe some civility will perk his interest again, and he could share some of the workings of your particular system that the rest of us don't have first hand experience with yet. I know I am interested to see if anything is actually wrong with your car. (Add it to my mental checklist of things to help my troubleshooting skills).

I can't imagine there'd be a problem with the master cylinder seals after only 3 years or so, but one less than surgically-clean fluid change could have got a bit of dirt into the cylinder and scratched something. Masters in my '85 Saab have been perfect since I rebuilt them 6-7 years ago, and that was my first time.

Like Zac said, you wanna give us some walking around money, I'm sure we could have you set pretty quick.

Does Porsche uphold manufacturer's warranty if you track your car? I assume your '07 is still under warranty....


Best,
Drew

[Wesley]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dende890:
I hope you are wearing a condom playing Tetris.
By the way, my favorite game. Thanks God it was not invented yet when I f...ed the girls. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You can combine the two. It makes you much worse at the game though.

[Kevin Dunn]

Come on guys! I was regularly checking in on this for pure entertainment! Don't let in die now!