New FSAE Team at University of Nebraska-Lincoln

[HuskerMotorSports]

Hey everyone! I am starting UNL's first Formula team for the 2012 year. When I heard FSAE was moving the competition to Lincoln in 2012, I thought I might start up a team here. Currently I'm working with the Faculty advisor about sponsors and various planning aspects, but I think everything is pretty much a go. I'm excited to get started on this and hopefully see you all at the competition in 2012.

[B Lewis @ PE Engine Management]

Welcome aboard. Sounds like you have faculty support. Do you have any team members?

Good luck.

[HuskerMotorSports]

As of right now I have gotten emails from about 40 students, so we have the potential manpower. I'll see if all of them show up because you get the whole deal where there are a lot students who sign up and say they are interested but only a quarter out of the bunch actually show. I've been in Baja for a year and a half now and that's what happened when we had an open house. About 100 or so signed up and only about 25 showed up. Now we have 8-9 guys actually doing Baja.

[Barky]

Great decision and best of luck. I know what it's like starting up a team from scratch. It'll be a great experience but not without some significant difficulty. It'll be tough starting up a new program in just a year, but if you have a good infrastructure in place from baja and can convince somewhere between 5 and 10 students to give up the rest of their lives/GPAs to Formula you can pull it off.

[BrendonD]

If your Baja guys are decent bring them over and find new people to replace them on Baja, the learning curve will be slightly less forgiving, you might have to beat precision into their heads though. Again, best of luck!

[HuskerMotorSports]

Thanks to all who replied! As of right now I am going to work MS Project so that I can make a schedule of what needs to be done and when it is supposed to be done by. I believe this way the team will be organized and will sort of "push" the team members to follow through what they may have started. Anyone see a downside to this method?

[Mazur]

Unless you have several solid members, plan for a two year build. This ain't no baja car.

[HuskerMotorSports]

Yes, I completely understand that. I had brought that point up to the advisors before I even said anything else. We will see how many people actually stick around and will go from there.

[RobbyObby]

Originally posted by BrendonD:
If your Baja guys are decent bring them over and find new people to replace them on Baja, the learning curve will be slightly less forgiving, you might have to beat precision into their heads though. Again, best of luck!

Just for reference, team was first formed in April of 2008, to compete in the 2009 competition. We have a had a solid Baja program for 6 or 8 years now so alot of the Baja team worked on the Formula car also. Combined, a solid group of only 8 or 10 managed to finish both the Baja and Formula cars and we won Rookie of the Year at West in '09. So although you definitely need a solid group, it absolutely can be done! Best of luck to you guys and hope to see you next year.

[HuskerMotorSports]

Originally posted by RobbyObby:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BrendonD:
If your Baja guys are decent bring them over and find new people to replace them on Baja, the learning curve will be slightly less forgiving, you might have to beat precision into their heads though. Again, best of luck!

Just for reference, team was first formed in April of 2008, to compete in the 2009 competition. We have a had a solid Baja program for 6 or 8 years now so alot of the Baja team worked on the Formula car also. Combined, a solid group of only 8 or 10 managed to finish both the Baja and Formula cars and we won Rookie of the Year at West in '09. So although you definitely need a solid group, it absolutely can be done! Best of luck to you guys and hope to see you next year. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the wishes! I am truly hoping for us to show up in 2012. That is my ultimate goal since we will be the home team. I have talked to most of the Baja guys (9-10) and they all seem very interested in helping out the Formula for this upcoming year. Just hope that everything goes according to plan in getting a solid team formed.

[BrendonD]

Great news that you have their support! I have learned this year that collaboration between teams instead of competition makes things so much easier for everyone involved. Feel free to shoot me a PM if you have any questions.

[Jersey Tom]

...go Buffs!

In all seriousness, best of luck. If you're starting from scratch you have have the opportunity to implement some "best practices" now, and have them take root.

Success in FSAE is a lot more than having the most powerful engine, a great kinematic design, or a high-downforce aero package.

Organization, leadership, and knowledge transfer FTW.

[Adambomb]

Originally posted by HuskerMotorSports:
Thanks to all who replied! As of right now I am going to work MS Project so that I can make a schedule of what needs to be done and when it is supposed to be done by. I believe this way the team will be organized and will sort of "push" the team members to follow through what they may have started. Anyone see a downside to this method?

I have used this method before, haven't gotten desired results. It's a good foundation, but if the overall "team culture" isn't fully aware of the total amount work involved it still won't work. A lot of people who haven't been bitten hard on FSAE timelines will blow off the schedule because "this week sucks and next week I can just try harder." The problem is that if you have the capability to "try harder" then obviously you aren't giving it all already, and the schedule will almost certainly be break-neck from the beginning, leaving no room to "try harder next week." Recognizing the max of your own capabilities is important. Just be sure to build plenty of flex time into the schedule for SNAFUs and remember the "rule of pi." Have a plan for 10-15% of your team leaders totally flaking out too. Always seems to be 1-2 per year. It sounds like your baja experience has already been helpful in determining how many actual active members you can expect to have. I know in the past over the course of a year we'd have about 100 show up to the meetings at the beginning of the semester, 30 contribute "something" of value to the team, 90% of the work is done by about 10 people, and 50% of the work is done by 3 people.

Once you get the car running you've got to hit up some SCCA events! We often go to C.B. whenever there are events there, as I recall NE region does those. Would be nice to have some competition in our class! I know there are a bunch of events in Lincoln too, as far as I know we haven't made it out there yet (I've been a bit out of the loop this year), never mind SCCA Nationals or competition next year (still stoked about that). If you're feeling frisky and don't mind a bit of driving head on out to Des Moines, there's several autocrosses there we often go to under DMVR. Also got to hit up the FSAE Challenge in Salina KS, it's like the third weekend in March, and usually 2-5 midwest teams show up. Also can't miss the Texas Autocross at UTA, last year there were something like 15 teams present and a total of 30-some cars. They're both a really good time, get to hang out with other FSAE geeks from the area, and the whole driving/stress ratio is much larger.

[HuskerMotorSports]

Thanks for you input Adam! I just don't think I can make an entire schedule of what we would have to do from now until competition time. I mean we have half a semester left, which gives me time to figure out sponsorship issues and wutnot and have a few meetings with the students. I would like to have them do a lot of research in their area of the formula car. Then summer break commences and I am not sure of what to do during that time. I highly doubt that people are going to want to do anything during the summer for formula. So basically scheduling the entire Formula course from now until competition would be quite the task and who knows if we will be able to stick to that schedule. Also, a major snag I think I may have come by would be the fact that we have literally no place to work on it. With all the research going on with the professors getting their grants, the Baja team has been moved several times in and around the engineering college here at UNL. We had an outstanding shop 2 years ago which was big enough to probably house Baja AND Formula but that room is now a research lab. We were then moved upstairs to a little dinky area that we shared with the aerospace club. We now have to work in a little space off to the side in the structures lab. I may need to talk to the dean and see if theres a place for Formula that is.

Regarding SCCA events, I have been to a couple autocross meets and they are really fun to go to, so I might come to a couple again soon. I got an email from Steve Daum (I'm not quite sure how he got my email) saying that I should attend a FSAE meet to really experience it and see how everything is ran. Hopefully I can persuade the University to fly me to FSAE West or something because the one in Michigan is still a 12 hour drive for myself which is ridiculous. I'll see what will happen this week.

PS. Adam you don't happen to know of a Travis "TJ" Good do you? He was a Civil at ISU.

[Xeilos]

TiLong:

IF you are serious about doing FSAE, you WILL attend an FSAE event regardless of whether or not your school will pay for flights, cars, hotels, etc and you WILL pay for it out of your pocket if it comes to that. The other thing you SHOULD do is to take several other people along who plan on joining the team, as many as you can cram into as many cars as you can. It may be 12 hours, which is not a large distance if I do say so, but if you want to succeed and have any clue as to what is happening then you will attend one of these competitions.

I say none of this in spite, or meanness or as a personal attack. What I am presenting is better than all of that, honesty in all of its flavors and nettles. I want you to succeed, where many (including myself in the past) have failed. Reality cannot be denied by honeyed words and foibles of the mind.

I do say this to discourage you; in this way discouragement is a good thing as it will try, temper and harden your resolve for this competition and your resolve to do well (read: FINISH). If it breaks your resolve, then all the better as you would be pursuing a folly and letting your team, your school and yourself down in May 2012. It sounds like you and your team will need some resolve in the coming months from your last post.

This competition requires a certain selflessness from its leader (I will be catching some flak from this one, from my team and others on the forum). You above the rest of your team must be dedicated to ensuring that everything happens and this includes working all year long. You will have to give up parts of your life and make certain sacrifices for the team in order to see your car succeed or even finish. Ask yourself these questions: how little sleep can I get and still function in school and formula (subtract 1 hour from this answer in all likelihood)? How much time in a week do I expect to spend with friends/drinking outside of the team (this one is hard to answer as work life balances are difficult for many, many people)? How many hours will I put into the team above and beyond school and school work (the answer should be 40+)? Am I prepared to take a hit to my grades to see this car finished (Answer: YES, without hesitation)? If you are not prepared to do this, then you have some careful considerations and weighing to be made before you progress any further down this path.

The point I am driving is that you must be dedicated. The most successful members of this competition (whether or not they win, is another matter separate from being successful) are those who are truly dedicated to the car, the team and the idea about what this competition is. For some of us, it is the first step down a career path and for some of us it is a path to simply walk along.

What began to set off warning bells in your above post was your:


Then summer break commences and I am not sure of what to do during that time. I highly doubt that people are going to want to do anything during the summer for formula.

Ammendment: When I say you, I mean the team including yourself, not the singular you (in most cases).

I agree with you that people are not going to WANT to do any FSAE over the summer but if you expect to produce anything other than garbage, you are going to need to work this car over the summer. You will need to read, to plan, to understand and then design. You should have a good portion of the framework of your design finished by the end of summer. At the very least, you MUST have a direction and an understanding of what you are going to do. When the 2012 rules are released you will have to go back and modify your designs while you check to make sure (and double check as well) that your designs are acceptable against the rules (this says nothing for if they are acceptable against reality!). How can you throw away 4 months of research, design, sponsorship pursuits and work? Not working during this time period would be asinine.

I encourage you to take this advice and build on it. I genuinely want to help and see you succeed.

The last piece of advice I have is for the scheduling, start broad then whittle down into finer and finer details. Set 6 or 7 solid, broad deadlines to get things done then DO NOT move them (provided they were even somewhat realistic in the first place). Stuff like, major designs finalized, powdercoating/anodizing, sending stuff out to sponsors, ordering parts, rolling chassis, etc. Your culture of the team must also match the use of this schedule (always pushing to get things done BEFORE they are needed on the schedule). You have a tabula rasa before you and can shape the culture of the team towards an attitude of success and winning before another culture becomes ingrained which is much harder to remove. Other teams state it is hard to do with their culture, but if you know something should be done a certain way and the culture does not match it, then something has to give. Either the culture or the schedule.

[Adambomb]

Yeah, it can be hard to get people to work over the summer for the most part. But if you can get a couple people to tackle some significant task (usually ends up being the 3 people that build 50% of the car), you can get a good head start and avoid the typical "lag" at the beginning of the year where you're just trying to get things moving. Doing research then would also be a good idea, also having a meeting at some point involving all the team leaders towards the end of the summer is good to come together and agree on what the overall design will be, etc. These meetings can be painful, but reduce the number of surprises and hardships later.

Dealing with shop space from the university is always a tough issue, ISU SAE has been around since like '84 and we still get threatened about losing our space about once every two years. A lot of teams have problems with this. My suggestion is to find the least desirable space possible that fits your needs and campaign to get that. Like something in an off-campus "research farm." Fewer people/professors will try to take it from you then. Biggest requirements are easy access to get the car in and out and 3 phase power. UW Platteville had a shop in a basement for several years, they had to design the car to fit in an elevator. It's hard to be competitive when you have to worry more about fitting in an elevator than going fast. Other than that you need to have a strong relationship with the school; if not they can be a continuous pain in the butt. And if it's not for shop space it's for safety (most universities are terrified at the thought of students actually using tools), stealing sponsorship money from you (all disguised as "helping you manage your accounts"), driving the car (we generally avoid this subject at all costs, and stall when confronted), going anywhere, or basically doing anything that involves getting out from behind a desk. That's actually the primary duty of our SAE president, to schmooze the administration.

Going to competition is an outstanding idea, you'll learn a ton. If you can take a couple team leaders with you'll be really well off. Hell, road trip it if you have to, make a vacation out of it! As far as getting to MI, we're about 2.5 hours closer and I'm thinking we've done it in around 8 with the dually and trailer, the secret is to hit Chicago at 3 am, which is basically the only time there is a reasonable amount of traffic. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Sorry, don't think I know Travis Good. I know there's a few Civils I used to hang out with, the name sounds somewhat familiar, but I can't think of it off hand.

[HuskerMotorSports]

Thanks for your input Xelios! You make some very good points and I value that. That's exactly why I posted here in this forum to see what I need to do and what needs to be done. If it does come down to it, I probably will pay out of pocket to attend an FSAE meet, probably FSAE West since I just realized I have to go out there to visit family in June. I still have to meet with the Faculty advisor and some other advisors to discuss our plans. As for the questions you have presented to me, I WILL be dedicated to this and nothing else besides school. I only take 12-14 credits per semester, I literally have no friends, and I will be living down on campus full time for my last year at UNL. My life basically revolves around school and nothing else, no friends, no girlfriend, etc. It is just school and school for me.

As for the summer statement that I made, I do plan on doing a lot of research myself and talking to the potential group leaders about everything. As I had said to the faculty advisor before, if we are going to want to have a team here formed, we have to start right now. I do have a plan and direction formed right now as to what I would like to see done for the 2012 year. As of right now I am just working out the kinks and snags concerning membership, a place to actually work on the car and funding before we can go anywhere. Once everything is resolved, which would be in a couple weeks or so, then I will be hitting the ground running.

Again, thanks for you input, its just what I need!

[HuskerMotorSports]

Originally posted by Adambomb:
Yeah, it can be hard to get people to work over the summer for the most part. But if you can get a couple people to tackle some significant task (usually ends up being the 3 people that build 50% of the car), you can get a good head start and avoid the typical "lag" at the beginning of the year where you're just trying to get things moving. Doing research then would also be a good idea, also having a meeting at some point involving all the team leaders towards the end of the summer is good to come together and agree on what the overall design will be, etc. These meetings can be painful, but reduce the number of surprises and hardships later.

Dealing with shop space from the university is always a tough issue, ISU SAE has been around since like '84 and we still get threatened about losing our space about once every two years. A lot of teams have problems with this. My suggestion is to find the least desirable space possible that fits your needs and campaign to get that. Like something in an off-campus "research farm." Fewer people/professors will try to take it from you then. Biggest requirements are easy access to get the car in and out and 3 phase power. UW Platteville had a shop in a basement for several years, they had to design the car to fit in an elevator. It's hard to be competitive when you have to worry more about fitting in an elevator than going fast. Other than that you need to have a strong relationship with the school; if not they can be a continuous pain in the butt. And if it's not for shop space it's for safety (most universities are terrified at the thought of students actually using tools), stealing sponsorship money from you (all disguised as "helping you manage your accounts"), driving the car (we generally avoid this subject at all costs, and stall when confronted), going anywhere, or basically doing anything that involves getting out from behind a desk. That's actually the primary duty of our SAE president, to schmooze the administration.

Going to competition is an outstanding idea, you'll learn a ton. If you can take a couple team leaders with you'll be really well off. Hell, road trip it if you have to, make a vacation out of it! As far as getting to MI, we're about 2.5 hours closer and I'm thinking we've done it in around 8 with the dually and trailer, the secret is to hit Chicago at 3 am, which is basically the only time there is a reasonable amount of traffic. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Sorry, don't think I know Travis Good. I know there's a few Civils I used to hang out with, the name sounds somewhat familiar, but I can't think of it off hand.

Great points Adam! That's what I had in mind as well. Get every kink worked out in terms of membership, sponsorship, and place to work will be tough but I can do it. I just need to pick out who can have the skills and responsibility to become one of the group leaders. Keep close contact with those leaders and work with them as much as I can in order to create a base foundation for the team in terms of chassis design and wutnot.

Regarding space, the faculty advisor is still trying to work with the college to get a room for us. I will discuss more with that with him tomorrow and along with organizing a FSAE trip. Going to one I think will be the most beneficial aspect for myself and the group leaders.

You might have heard of Travis Good at ISU because he actually passed away last April due to Menengitis. A few Civ E guys fabricrated a table somewhere on the ISU campus in his memoriam. He was one of my good friends because him and I went to high school together. Sorry to bring down the mood but I was just curious!

[cmeissen]

TiLong,

One thing that can really help as well is to contact and go visit other teams in the area. It will give you and the rest of the team members a better idea of what FSAE is about. There are a lot of teams not to far from you: Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State, SDSU, Wichita State, Mizzou, S&T...

Many of them attend autocross events in the area. Good luck to you and the rest of your team.

Chris

[HuskerMotorSports]

One of my good friends was the Powertrain leader at University of Kansas and I've been down there a couple times to check out the shop. I may be going to South Dakota in a few weeks as they have offered myself and a few other students a visit. I'll be going down to KU this weekend to check out the Formula team there in more detail. Thanks for the luck, we will need it.

[HuskerMotorSports]

Hey guys just an update. I had a couple big meetings for this. Still working on space to work in, should know in a couple days. If we do get this space I think it would be great since its a pretty large garage. Funding is still an issue and I'm still working on that. Getting brochures made out this week. I picked 3-4 guys to lead the subgroups. First meeting will be in a couple weeks with the entire student body who were interested. I am excited to get everything started. One of the team leaders is almost done with our webpage, so I'll post a link to it once its done.

[HuskerMotorSports]

Hey guys, just a quick update if anyone is interested. Had our very first meeting with all the students. I would say about 50 students showed up which is a good number. Split everyone into different groups and will be holding weekly meetings on top of the meetings that each subgroup will have. Still working on the space and funding issue, I hope to get that all figured out by the end of the semester.

[Francis Gagné]

Sounds like a big group! But, the sad truth of FSAE is that some or most of them will fade away from existence in the next month or year. Thus leaving half or non-made stuff behind sometime without noticing it until it is too late.

I can only suggest that you make your planning like you were about half a team. If more stays well congrats, it will leave your more ressources and time to build and test the car and find money! If they leave at least you can always build the car and make it to comp without too much sacrifices.

I also recommend you to read Think Fast by Neil Roberts, it will give you a great apercu of the global car and lots of tips. Also, attending the Claude Rouelle seminar after the comp (Or as soon as possible) would be great, it will demand money from the team members who wants to go but is really worth the investment. Understanding the competition and basic racing car design will help you decide what is important and what is not and concentrate your efforts on that and avoid huge pitfalls.

Best of Luck!

[HuskerMotorSports]

Francis, I am aware of the fact that there will be students who will flake out midway. It was an item I brought up with the faculty advisor before I began planning everything. I only expect to have around 15 total students. With the time that we are starting (which is at an odd time), I know people will want to do anything over the summer. For this, I have made sure that the team leaders of the subgroups are dedicated and will be willing to work on this throughout the summer. As for attending competitions, I will be attending FSAE West in California this summer in June. I am not sure if the rest of the team members are willing to spend the money on going on a trip but I am encouraging them to do so. Thank you for your input Francis!

[D.J.]

Josh stopped by our shop last week when he was home for break. I am pretty sure that me and SomeGuy told him most of the same things that have been mentioned here.

I agree that it would be a stretch to get a car together in one year. Even with a solid BAJA program. Our first took two years and was finished the day we left for comp. Didn't do very well but most of us were surprised it even moved.

If we can be of any help let me know, Josh has my info.

Good Luck!

[HuskerMotorSports]

Thanks D.J. I am sure we'll be contacting you.

Just a quick update:

Got most of the administrative stuff taken care of. We had about 45 people come to the first meeting. As always its kind of boiled down to about 25-30. I have split groups into Chassis, Brakes, Suspension and Powertrain with about 9 team members in each group. We have also put together a Business Management/Public Relations team and a Web Development team to run and maintain our website. We have a forum setup on our website so that our team members can disperse information or discuss topics which is a great way of communicating with each other. Funding as always is still in the process,but I would say we are in a better position than we were a few weeks ago. The ME Department is finally supporting us and I still have to present to the dean of engineering to see if the college of engineering will support us. I am having all of the team leads/members go to different places around town with brochures I have made up to see if they would like to donate/sponsor us. I was notified of the PERFECT area we could house both the Formula and Baja teams so that should be worked out this week or so. We are still in the research and development stage right now but will be working constantly over the summer to get a 3D model out in SW and hopefully start building a chassis. A hurdle we still have yet to overcome is engine choice. Single, Twin, 4-Cylinder. We have chosen to run E85 as well. The team leads and I will be going on a couple trips to Universities nearby to visit the Formula teams to see how things are run there. Myself and one of the team leads will be attending FSAE West this summer to check things out. So I hope to meet some of you when we are there! Wish us luck, as we have a lot to do in the next coming months. Thanks to all that have offered to help and have given advice, I truly appreciate it!

[Mbirt]

A hurdle we still have yet to overcome is engine choice. Single, Twin, 4-Cylinder.
If you can capitalize on baja CVT tuning experience, the Yamaha Phaser 500 might be a great powertrain for a team not yet invested in air shifters, clutch cables, etc. I've heard murmurs of 80hp+ at the crank from U of Michigan Dearborn's microsquirted phaser motor.

With an elegantly simple 400lb, 10" wheel car, they came in 8th overall at MIS in 2010. Also snagged 13th in accel, 14th in auto-x, 13th in endurance, and 8th in the economy event. CVT's are so horribly inefficient, aren't they? Rob Woods would be proud.

[Francis Gagné]

+1, We (Sherbrooke) have a CVT with the Yamaha Genesis 80FI (From a Phaser snowmobile). We are turbocharged and do about 80hp. UQAC (Chicoutimi) have the same setup but NA, last year they were pulling in the order of 60Hp if I recall.

We use an AEM, we tried to switch the Microsquirt last year, but it was short before comp and it had problem reading the RPM signal. The solution was probably near us, but time was against us and already had a working solution.

The biggest problem with Yamaha engines is availability. It is very complicated to get a motor directly from them. When we got our first one it was a two for one deal from a local dealer and it had to be approved up to Yamaha Japan...

The upside is that if you want to run CVT, this motor is built for that, good RPM range, no transmission to hack off, good size for packaging and relatively low weight.

CVTs are complicated to tune, but with just some care (Axis C-C and alignment) you will have something working off the shelf or with some simple clutch spring change.



@Mbirt: On Michigan Dearborn site it is written they had in 2010 a 6 speed sequential 600cc 4cyl...

[Mbirt]

Originally posted by Francis Gagné:@Mbirt: On Michigan Dearborn site it is written they had in 2010 a 6 speed sequential 600cc 4cyl...
I tried to access their website yesterday (w w w . engin.umd.umich. e d u /orgs/fsae/) and kept getting a 404 error. Maybe you stumbled across UofM Ann Arbor's homepage? Dearborn has been running a CVT since their Briggs-powered "bajamula" days. I think 2007 was their last Vanguard V-Twin car and 2008 was their first Phaser-powered car.

[HuskerMotorSports]

Hey guys! A lot has happen since I last posted on here, but just to give everyone a brief overview. The new shop we will be moving into in a couple weeks so that will be a good step towards having shop with large space. There still has to be a lot of work done but I am having my team and requesting the Baja team to set aside a weekend to clean up and organize the shop. I am also having a large meeting with both Baja and Formula teams about shop rules and procedures which I think is very important. The team is still hard at work at their designs and should be getting a 3D model done next month. I have had each team go to the Kawasaki plant and tour the facility and learn more about what Kawasaki can do for us. We have chosen to go with the ZX-6R engine because of its high compression ratio of 13.3:1 and with our choice of running E85, availability and ease of service and parts. We have had meetings with both Kawasaki and the Nebraska Ethanol Board and it had resulted in great success. The Suspension Lead and myself will be going to California next week to see the FSAE competition, so I hope to see and meet some of you there! Look for us in the Black or Gray Husker Motorsports shirts with Nebraska Engineering on the back!