Western Australia Suspension [Archive]

Kevin Hayward

05-27-2005, 07:18 PM

Guys,

It is the Kinetics H2 system. Ben's description of what it does and the reason for the third springs front and rear is spot on. It does look like there are third dampers front and rear but that is only because we used some common components from the hydraulic cylinders. There are only 4 dampers (8 valves - Rebound and Compression each corner) that are mounted externally.

I wouldn't have said that our '04 US car was stiff. We ran no rollbars and had wheel rates less than 100 lb/in. The '05 US car has effective wheel rates that are much much less. The roll ends up being between 10 and 50% stiffer depending on what we want. Pitch is about equivalent to '04 with no anti-dive or anti-squat.

Dan is right in that we still have a lot more we can do with the system. In order to get it on the car and running effectively we made a few compromises. The main one was that we needed to be able to quickly go back to a conventional 4 coil over setup if it turned out to be crap.

Not really able to give back to back data on the difference ... but I can tell you that it is really noticeable. We dropped over a tenth in skidpan. However the main improvement is the driveability of the car over any surface. It is a little hard to explain how different it feels. Driving '05 in the US was like driving our last car on super smooth bitumen.

It was a lot of work to get it all together. We have been working on making it happen for about 3 years. We learnt a lot about dampers in general ... having to do a lot of testing with a dyno. Tested a few mountain bike shocks as well. Having been through the process I think that dampers are one of the big areas of performance on these cars. Although still far far behind having the right tyres ... which we don't.

The link that Dan posted of the Kinetics site shows how the dampers are linked side to side and front to rear. Only main difference is that we run external damping valves as mentioned above.

Cheers,

Kev

ex - UWA Motorsport
Now enjoying post FSAE life

Lukin

05-27-2005, 11:09 PM

Kev,

Do you get Kinetic to do your damper dyno'ing? Are there any others in the Perth metro area?

What are you upto these days?

Cheers.

jack

05-28-2005, 12:27 AM

actually, i meant chassis stiffness, not suspension stiffness. Also, it appears there are brackets out-board on you're a-arms that aren't used for anything, care to comment on those? I'm glad UWA's efforts paid off with this system and got you guys second place, nice work.

Denny Trimble

05-28-2005, 01:01 AM

The holy grail of unsprung aero, of course...

Congrats Kevin on a very successful career in FSAE. You and your team have raised the bar, thanks for all you've brought to the competition!

We found the course very bumpy, but were somehow able to keep up http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I think we'll need to do some skidpad testing for next year, we ran out of time and it was autox / endurance uber alles. Excuses, excuses, I know... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I have one question on the kinetic system. I'm assuming it "distributes" roll stiffness to front and rear ends of the car. Is there a way to set your front roll resistance percentage, like we currently do with conventional springs and bars? If not, how do you balance the car with setup?

Kevin Hayward

05-28-2005, 01:47 AM

Round 2:

Lukin we have used the Damper Dyno down at Kinetics in the past. However the speed and stroke range for testing do not suit us ... or anyone in FSAE for any decent testing. We ended up building our own hydraulic damper dyno.

Jack the brackets on the a-arms are for testing a set of wings we had built. Still need to do some work to get the aero stuff running well. Unsprung Aero ... hmmm ... still not completely convinced it is better than sprung for these cars. Have to wait and see what the team does.

Denny, thanks for your kind words. I have been lucky enough to be in an awesome team. Nearly all the mech design and testing for the Kinetics was by another team member, Nando Guzzomi, and he is around for a while yet. Loved the US track ... although both of our endurance drivers spun out once each (myself included). We lost around 10-15 seconds each time ... pretty annoying ... same place as well.

In order to change roll stiffness distribution we can change cylinder size or motion ratios which are both a pain. Otherwise we can just change the corner springs. We still have enough corner spring adjustment that we can go from severe oversteer to severe understeer quite easily. Not the quickest way to adjust RMD but we can change a pair of springs within 4 minutes (with 2 people). We can also change RMD by having a corner spring difference and then adjust the Kinetics pressure, which determines how much of the RMD is set by the Kinetics and how much by the corner springs. So I guess you can see it is pretty important to be in the ballpark of what you want with RMD with cylinder size and motion ratio in the first place.

I should also note here that we probably do more balance work with dampers than we do with springing. Not even the skidpad is steady state.

...

Anyway the only disappointment I have from the US comp is that I didn't get a chance to catch up with all the people that are regular posters on this forum. I have learnt so much by reading these posts ... didn't even post for the first 2 years I was involved.

Should be moving to the US later this year so hopefully I will be able to catch up with some people then.

Cheers,

Kev

Charlie

05-28-2005, 01:51 AM

Thanks for the info Kevin, even as mostly an engine monkey I find it interesting... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Coming to the states? Bring some WA Aussie women with you. You'll probably want them, and if not, I can help you find homes for them. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Not to say there aren't good women in the US, but I've seen the grass over there and it is greener...

Enough joking, I seem to be spread around the US quite a bit so once you are here give me a ring and we'll have one of those world famous American beers.

05-28-2005, 05:52 AM

If you want to see a suspension that does more than Kinetic's, with less hardware, then look up US Patent 6,702,265 B1 "Balanced Suspension". Also an SAE paper and Racecar Engineering article (March 2000) with the same name.

Also worth looking under a Citroen 2CV for a better approach to suspension design.

Z

Cement Legs

05-28-2005, 06:38 AM

HEHE... sorry but dont you mean water? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Originally posted by Charlie:
... once you are here give me a ring and we'll have one of those world famous American beers.

ben

05-28-2005, 06:51 AM

Originally posted by Z:
If you want to see a suspension that does more than Kinetic's, with less hardware, then look up US Patent 6,702,265 B1 "Balanced Suspension". Also an SAE paper and Racecar Engineering article (March 2000) with the same name.

Also worth looking under a Citroen 2CV for a better approach to suspension design.

Z

Z are you commercially developing the system (I have the paper and the article)?

I have met an engineer from Land Rover who built such a system 30 years ago and I believe a Spanish company has built a similar system into some 4WD cars.

Ben

Kevin Hayward

05-28-2005, 08:57 AM

Z,

The guy who started Kinetics was inspired by Citroen. It is sort of fitting that Citroen ended up running a Kinetics interconnected rollbar system.

Also remember reading your paper on "Balanced Suspension". If I have learnt any one thing from FSAE it is that the devil is in the detail. I would love to see pics of an implementation of the system. It would be great if you could post some.

Charlie, I have already noticed the problem with women in US vs. in Oz. I am bringing my own ... but no spares. Would be great to catch up though. We drank Molsen the last two years we have been over. It seems that Canadian beer isn't all that bad. Much better than the "Forties" that the RIT guys provided in 2003 when I was just over to spectate.

Cheers,

Kev

Kirk Feldkamp

05-28-2005, 11:02 AM

Not to jump off topic, but you can't call beer east of about Washington, Oregon, or California real beer. If you're judging us on the beer you can get in Michigan http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif (Big Buck excluded) then you'll definitely have a bad picture of U.S. beer. Sorry, back to suspension!

-Kirk

RagingGrandpa

05-28-2005, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by drivetrainUW-Platt:
I recall after they did the brake test, all the workers, me included, swarmed around their car and one of there guys took and lifted one front wheel up prob 4-6" and the other 3 didnt move, then they put all 4 on the ground and the thing would hardly rock when pushing on the roll hoop! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
I've got video of that, itching to rip it as soon as possible, it's amazing

Matt Gignac

05-28-2005, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by Kevin Hayward:

We drank Molsen the last two years we have been over. It seems that Canadian beer isn't all that bad.

Molson is to decent canadian beer what Foster's is to aussie beer: everyone else thinks we drink it in exclusivity, but we usually keep away if we can. At least it's that way in Quebec, where we're spoiled with all sorts of wicked microbrewery beers.

Unfortunately, for all intents and purposes, Molson owns McGill and hence my soul for the next two years, so I still drink an awful lot of the stuff at school.

Matt Gignac
McGill Racing Team

Andycostin

05-31-2005, 07:59 AM

Nicely said Matt, VB and Fosters are just your regular Mass Production. Try some proper aussie beer like Moutain Goat, Little Creatures or Five Islands.

But, back on topic, it's a great suspension system that WA ran, but how much of the design was done in-house, there was rumour (I must stress "RUMOUR") that the system was specifically designed by Kinetics.

Can anyone from WA quash these rumours to settle a dispute I'm having??

Denny Trimble

05-31-2005, 10:16 AM

How many teams designed their own dampers?

We just do installation / packaging and tuning... I can't imagine WA did less than that. Probably more.

Nick McNaughton

05-31-2005, 04:57 PM

Andy,

Our suspension system can be found on page 35 of the Kinetic catalogue, in the "Formula SAE" category under "Cars Painted Yellow" http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Seriously though, Kinetic gave us permission to try and adapt one of their systems to our car. The systems are intended for SUV-style vehicles, and as far as we know this is the first time it's been done for a tarmac racer. From there, we were on our own.

Each part of the system fitted to our 04Aus/05US car was sized, designed, tested and manufactured in house. The Kinetic system is the culmination of a damper research program that's been running for three years now. The fact that it gives us a competitive edge and doesn't weigh a ton while still being the first attempt at it is a testament to the amount of work put in by the team.

The US Design judges kinda liked it too, which I doubt would have happened if they suspected we didn't do the work...

Cheers,
Nick

Kevin Hayward

05-31-2005, 06:30 PM

Andy,

I don't know where that rumour started. It is blatently wrong. Kinetics is a small company ... though now owned by a big company. There is only a handful of engineers working there. They are also incredibly busy. I would really wonder how anybody could believe that they would spend the huge amount of time and resources required to develop a new system when they can make no profit from it. As Nick said we got permission to run the system, some of the basic theory, and contacts for seal suppliers etc. It is really dissappointing that this rumour exists.

Nando Guzzomi, the main designer and developer of the system (of a group of 5-6 people) has been offered a few very good jobs because of the work he has put in. So if you don't believe it was our work then you might when you bump into Nando at the high levels of motorsport in the years to come.

I'm sorry if this email sounds a little angry. It is because I am a little angry. We were accused by a few people in Australia (including design judges) of ordering this system out of a catalogue. This is despite showing all the supporting evidenve of the systems design, manufacture and testing. We even showed how we had to build our own damper dyno to test the valving properly. It is funny that these accusations did not exist in the US.

We are competing in a competition where more than one team has designed and built their own engine. More than one team has designed and built their own dampers. It is such a stretch to believe that a team could build their own dampers and then interconnect them.

Anyway I am going to stop trying to defend our team ... I shouldn't have to.

Cheers,

Kev

jack

05-31-2005, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by Denny Trimble:
How many teams designed their own dampers?

WWU did that once...

i guess that makes 2 so far...

Andycostin

05-31-2005, 08:37 PM

Cool guys, just wanted to have a definite answer that i can give to some people who were asking. Was great to see Aussie cars doing well still in the US.
Again, well done to WA for a great job.

ben

05-31-2005, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by Kevin Hayward:
Andy,

I don't know where that rumour started. It is blatently wrong. Kinetics is a small company ... though now owned by a big company. There is only a handful of engineers working there. They are also incredibly busy. I would really wonder how anybody could believe that they would spend the huge amount of time and resources required to develop a new system when they can make no profit from it.

Quite right. As an alumni I now look back and realise how easy it was/is to think that another team has an unfair advantage and must have beaten you because they had a stupid budget or a state-of-the-art suspension designed by an outside company.

In the end the team beat you because they built a better/faster car and/or were more proficient at explaining how they did it to the judges.

Ben

Eddie Martin

06-01-2005, 01:34 AM

I have noticed that as soon as a team starts being successful the rumours can begin to spread. I've heard some hilarious rumours about Wollongong. This is a bit disappointing but i understand the passion that goes into the project.

If you have talked to Kev Hayward for more than 5 minutes you will realise he knows his stuff back to front and the uwa team know exactly why their car package is like it is, they are a class act.

You may not like the fact that a team has beaten you, but the way to stop that is build a better car and score more points than them. One thing I have learnt from fsae is that people make the difference. If you gave me the choice of a huge budget, great facilities and some mildly interested students or ten enthusiastic, committed and intelligent people with average facilities and a low budget i'd take the low budget and good people everyday of the week.

Ché

06-02-2005, 10:11 PM

WA guys...what tires were you using durring the skidpad event? Just curious if the Aussie Hoosiers are different than what we have here in the States.

I was given an informal tour of the suspension while you guys were polishing before semis, no doubt in my mind the work that you all put into the system and that car.

I helped a little with our custom through-rod dampers (only rebuilding them for a drive day after they were already made), and this year we decided that since our guy left (to Honda Racing) that we should buy them instead of trying to make them again.

Juan Andres

06-02-2005, 11:43 PM

First of all, kudos to the WA guys. What an awesome car, seriously. Every system seemed to have at least one innovative feature.

Isn't it a bit childish to diss the WA suspension system as an off the shelf item developed by someone else?. Come on, we are a bit too old for that. Does anybody here think you could fool a design judge into believing you had built such an advanced suspension system if you hadn't actually done it?

I briefly saw the Kinetic system in your paddock, a non-suspension guy gave me a quick "walk through" right before one of the dynamic events, including the "single wheel lift". Once again, great job.

Hope to see you next year!

Juan Andres Espinoza
Universidad Simon Bolivar
Caracas - Venezuela

Nick McNaughton

06-03-2005, 12:11 AM

Che, we used the same Hoosiers as everyone else. Those tires were bought at the comp, and even Aussie-sourced Hoosiers originate from the same factory as the ones at the comp.

Cheers,
Nick

ben

06-06-2005, 08:36 AM

Originally posted by Z:
If you want to see a suspension that does more than Kinetic's, with less hardware, then look up US Patent 6,702,265 B1 "Balanced Suspension". Also an SAE paper and Racecar Engineering article (March 2000) with the same name.

Also worth looking under a Citroen 2CV for a better approach to suspension design.

Z

http://www.planetlemans.com/index.php?option=content&ta...iew&id=1013&Itemid=2 (http://www.planetlemans.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=1013&Itemid=2)

Keep an eye on the Le Mans 24hours. Does anyone know if this is the Kinetic system of a RfH in-house design?

Ben

RagingGrandpa

11-05-2005, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by RagingGrandpa:
I've got video of that, itching to rip it as soon as possible, it's amazing Didn't forget...
UWA Suspension 2005 (http://www.youtube.com/v/Nvc0Ux08tQA)

kwancho

11-06-2005, 12:28 AM

*jaw drops*

magicweed

11-06-2005, 01:27 PM

Makes me start thinking what kind of internals that damper crossover has. They dont look like theyd be that hard to make. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Honestly, this is the coolest suspension I have ever seen.

Frank

11-10-2005, 09:13 AM

Dear UWA,

i was just wondering,

did those "patend pending" chassis technologies ever get a patent number?

http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/125607348/m/18310365611/p/2

Kevin Hayward

11-10-2005, 10:35 AM

Frank,

I think I may have already mentioned that the main people responsible have formed a company backed by a much bigger company in WA. The guys at UWA, myself included, no longer know the status of the project and the status of the patents. However from the little I know I think there is a 2 year period allowed before a provisional patent has to become public.

Given their situation I think the company will be using all of that time to get setup. There was a guy in UWA that put a patent out early and basically had the work stolen by Boeing. It is way too easy to make minor changes to a patent and re-release it as your own.

I also believe that the official patent application was not submitted until some time after the 2003 Australian competition. I would guess sometime in middle to late 2006 the number will be made public.

However I am unaware of its current state and whether the company intends to make it public early.

Sorry if thats not the answer you want.

Kev

Frank

11-10-2005, 10:39 AM

sweet, thanks, im just itching to read about how you guys make mono's. We're thinking about one.

the guy who put the patent out early, he was a team member of UWA?, was it about technologies used in how UWA made their 2003 chassis?

Kevin Hayward

11-10-2005, 10:56 AM

Frank,

The guy who got burnt was an ex-PhD student. In many ways he helped get UWA Motorsport of the ground. A couple of years before we started he setup a team for doing the Avon Descent (A white-water boat race in WA). He used some pretty cool composites technology.

His efforts made the department a bit more receptive to the idea of practical projects. He was never a team member of the UWA FSAE team but he did help out a LOT with learning about composites. I'm pretty sure he is a part of the company that has been formed.

Are there any Autoclaves in Brisbane big enough to do a FSAE chassis? When we started looking into composites if there was an autoclave available we would never have developed the process.

Kev

Frank

11-10-2005, 11:03 AM

im really not sure, im imagining that it would expensive to use one?

Jarrod

11-11-2005, 07:29 AM

there is a full sized autoclave in brisbane somewhere, we were doing a lot of chasing to find one last year, I think the guys building the carbontech spyder(?) told us about it. I don't recall any of the contact details though.

Kevin Hayward

11-11-2005, 07:39 AM

Frank,

Pretty sure that with a few sweet words you would get the time etc sponsored. Most of the teams doing composites do not seem to have a problem with that.

If you do get it sponsored try and make sure you have time to do more than just your main chassis. Getting your quality control right at the start takes a bit of time and effort. However it will be easier if a company specialising in composites is helping you out.

Good luck with it all. Given the quality of your team I wouldn't think you'd have too much of a problem finding backing.

Kev

Frank

11-12-2005, 11:29 PM

i thought the reason you guys did this "non-autoclave" method was because it is easy

thanks for the compliment kev, we have some talent, but we're inherantly lazy (qld is hot)

http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

11-13-2005, 12:01 AM

Originally posted by Kevin Hayward:
However from the little I know I think there is a 2 year period allowed before a provisional patent has to become public.

Given their situation I think the company will be using all of that time to get setup. There was a guy in UWA that put a patent out early and basically had the work stolen by Boeing. It is way too easy to make minor changes to a patent and re-release it as your own.

I also believe that the official patent application was not submitted until some time after the 2003 Australian competition. I would guess sometime in middle to late 2006 the number will be made public.
Kev

First part: it's 18 months in the U.S. for a provisional patent to be awarded. Also, in the U.S. the patents are awarded to the first to file where in the rest of the world it's the first to invent.

Second part: That's why it can pay to spend some money on a good patent lawyer. I think the same thing happened to the person who invented the hovercraft.

Third part: You can search for a patent after the provisional patent has been awarded. On the USPTO site the provisional patents are separated from the actual patents. One more thing, US patents are good for 20 years after filing, not 17 after they are awarded.

Just thought I'd throw in some tidbits on patent law http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif