Detroit: Who's bringing something new/innovative/unique?

[Dan G]

Hey guys. Hope all of your cars are nearing completion, or at least approaching an operable state! I'll be flying back to Detroit to catch the big show. Can't wait to see what everyone brings this year.

I'm gearing up for another round as amateur photographer, this time I'll actually have a media pass c/o Racecar Engineering. They used my shots for almost all of last year's Detroit article.

I'm hoping some of you will share your new/innovative/unique designs with me ahead of time so I can make sure to catch them in 1's and 0's. Examples are things like Lehigh's carbon flexure suspension joints, TAMU's supercharged single, UWA's wild suspension... things above and beyond the cookie cutter designs.

If you don't want to spill the beans to the whole forum, feel free to send me a PM. Make sure to include your team name/number and what I should be looking for. Hopefully I'll be able to snap some great shots this year. I've been practicing with a new teleconvertor and polarized filter with some great results...

http://www.evilengineering.com/gallery/d/10661-2/IMG_2924.jpg (http://www.evilengineering.com/gallery/v/gielamonster/SoW_5-07/)

See everyone in a few days!

[John Stimpson]

Here is a link to our thread. I'd say we have a pretty unique powertrain this year.

Kettering's Thread (http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/125607348/m/78310964041)

[Dan G]

Yep John, that certainly looks photo worthy to me. I've had my eye on that Mahle powertrain since it was released.

Sorry to hear you had that time crunch on getting the motor in your hands. Hope everything works out in time.

[Dan G]

I got a handful of PMs already. I'll start a list of things to look for. Thanks guys, keep the notes coming.

[Jersey Tom]

While our car won't have a full set of them, I belive we'll be bringing one of our full carbon composite (lug ends and all) a-arms. Also have some unique a-arm geometry goin on.

And of course I personally enjoy my slick 100% universal / modular DFM wheel assembly haha.

Univ of Colorado, Boulder. Car 99

[Matt N]

I'll be real interested to hear why you chose 25" vsal length at the front and 50-60" vsal length at the rear...

Matt

[Jersey Tom]

I'll be happy to explain. It is of similar length in the front.

[PatClarke]

Hi Dan,
Very slightly off subject, but keep your eye open for suitable submissions to Pat's chamber of horrors =]
By this I mean poor design solutions, either deliberate or in ignorance. I am particularly interested in nasty compromises that teams have had to make because of other design considerations.
I use these to discuss and illustrate the column I write on the FSG site.
I don't identify teams as I'm not trying to embarass people, but use them as examples that teams shouldnt follow.
An easy example would be "Rod ends in bending" but I have lots of pictures of those =]
Regards
Pat

PS, Good luck to all teams at Romeo this coming weekend. Remember to keep safe and have fun!

[Wesley]

Well, our car is pretty fantastic, but when it comes to innovations, I think our pushbar is probably the most advanced part of the entire car.

Look forward to seeing everyone in Deetroit!

[ad]

Originally posted by PatClarke:
An easy example would be "Rod ends in bending" but I have lots of pictures of those =]
Regards
Pat


And its amazing how many teams still use them!

[Tintin]

Originally posted by John Stimpson:
Here is a link to our thread. I'd say we have a pretty unique powertrain this year.

Kettering's Thread (http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/125607348/m/78310964041)

...on which you did not too much on your own AFAIK. I remember pretty well how much talk the engine alone caused some years ag:

http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/125607348/m/6736033494/p/1

Now Mahle designs a tranny to go allong with engine as a complete package and this drivetrain will be used by at least three teams - and nobody says a word. A little strange IMHO when some people feared "the end of FSAE" with the engine only.

So Kettering, FH Esslingen and TU Stuttgart (who build a pretty conventional - but nice and tidy - car in 2006 which took them to 3rd in FSG IIRC) will have a FSAE-spec drivetrain they didn't design themselves. Aachen - my former team however I'm no longer affiliated with the project - will stick to the Mahle engine and the self-designed and -build CVT this year AFAIK. Although I'm arguably biased there I still prefer this apporach and wouldn't recommend the Mahle tranny to them even if it would be perfectly reliable and delivered in time.

The internals of the Mahle tranny are Hewland and the complete package evolved from the backup solution Aachen had for the second car. The installation of a diff with all the hassle of the secondary is all accounted for by Mahle for their own tranny as well as the tuning of the engine if I got all the different info right from different sources.

Not too impressive I'd say....



Tim

[PatClarke]

Tim,
Don't worry, the Judges are fully aware =].
When the inevitable questions "Why" come, then the questions cannot be answered and the scores in Design will tumble.

Then, from what I have seen, the performance will not be sufficient to pull back the situation on the track.

Cheers
Pat

[John Stimpson]

Originally posted by Tintin:
...accounted for by Mahle for their own tranny as well as the tuning of the engine if I got all the different info right from different sources.

Not too impressive I'd say....

Tim

Mahle came up with what the FSAE rulebook refers to as an "ultra-high performance" engine, just as many, many other manufacturers do. There is also an integrated transmission solution for all of the motorcycle engines out there that everyone else uses. I'm failing to see what is wrong with using a high performance engine with a good gearbox in our FSAE car. If you mean that we're not impressive because we're not Western Washington with a CNC V8... Well, you're hard to impress then.

I'd also like to point out that Mahle is *not* responsible for the induction system, the exhaust system, or the engine calibration, all of which was done by Kettering University FSAE students... Because we were able to run the engine in an equipped test cell, we got TONS of real, back-to-back run test data to show the design judges why we have it set up the way we do.

[BStoney]

Man, enough with the ripping on people and their progress and successes. John is right, not everyone has the resources, time, or desire to build their engine from scratch. In this race, it's about reliability for 22 laps and then ideally, your car would fall apart just after crossing the finish line. Seemingly impractical, but that would be optimal engineering.

Nevertheless, many find it more beneficial to leave the stock tranny alone and focus their engine/powertrain efforts on other areas deemed more critical by a particular team (i.e, dry sump, axle twist, compliances elsewhere). This competition is all about trade-offs and compromises, and isn't that the nature of virtually any engineering situation? So as long as their is a solid engineering reason for doing something, then hell, go for it and make it work well. Look at F1, they'll trade additional weight for downforce increase, they have deemed it necessary to focus on downforce and grip as its benefits easily outwiegh the negative effects of more weight to accelerate around the track.

Rant over. Basically, the ripping on people and cutting them down is getting asanine and polluting these forums. Definitely not the good technical discussions of past years.

[Dan G]

Yeah, I'm shocked you guys are so open with your criticism. And to be honest, I find it hypocritcal for anyone that hasn't machined their own block to complain about the Mahle package. Someone please explain to me how this motor/trans is any less design points worthy than a sportbike motor with integral trans. Seriously, I'm listening.

[Dr Claw]

The only difference Dan, is most teams indirectly buy an engine straight from Honda, or yamaha. I wonder why UofM Deaborn doesnt catch any heat for buying their engine's directly from their Manufacturer? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

FSAE is a strange silly world where everybody is right about just about everything..and i'm right about that. Glad I'm retiring this year!

[JuicedH22]

Originally posted by Wesley:
..but when it comes to innovations, I think our pushbar is probably the most advanced part of the entire car.

best post in this thread, lol

[Tintin]

Originally posted by John Stimpson:

Mahle came up with what the FSAE rulebook refers to as an "ultra-high performance" engine, just as many, many other manufacturers do. There is also an integrated transmission solution for all of the motorcycle engines out there that everyone else uses.


Yep, that's the tranny. NOT the diff which is what I referred to.



I'm failing to see what is wrong with using a high performance engine with a good gearbox in our FSAE car.

There is nothing wrong, I just wonder why three years ago quite a few people were horrified by the existence of this engine and now that it's a quite a step further noone appearently cares about the question raised back then. And IMHO the complete Mahle tranny takes quite a bit of learning away. Just search this forum for talks about diff installation. That's all I'm saying.



If you mean that we're not impressive because we're not Western Washington with a CNC V8... Well, you're hard to impress then.

There's things in between and some teams do quite a lot of development on engine parts which just isn't possible on the Mahle AFAIK. That is designing and grinding your own camshaft profiles (which doesn't take that much of equipment or sponsorship), altering CR etc. You're most likely not doing this on the Mahle and if I were a judge I'd be impressed by things like that. It doesn't need to be a cnc'd V8.


I'd also like to point out that Mahle is *not* responsible for the induction system, the exhaust system, or the engine calibration, all of which was done by Kettering University FSAE students... Because we were able to run the engine in an equipped test cell, we got TONS of real, back-to-back run test data to show the design judges why we have it set up the way we do.

Then I got one of your post in the other thread wrong - concerning engine tuning. I was used to their policy which they had in the first few years that the engine would have to be dyno'd in Stuttgart which is were our tuning took place.

Don't get me wrong however, it's not so much of criticism against Kettering here, just from working with this engine quite some time I have strong doubts that having this and a fully developped tranny is good for FSAE. I just spoke to someone from my uni yesterday and IMHO they shouldn't use this engine anymore. However I'm no longer a member of the team and don't know their current situation too well so it's basically my opinion. Which is based on my experiences back then and the talks I had especially about the drivetrain with quite a few people, e.g. with Pat back in 2004 when the engine ran for the first time in GB.



Tim

[Tintin]

Originally posted by BStoney:
Man, enough with the ripping on people and their progress and successes.

If what I wrote is "ripping on people" then I'd be pretty surprised. I thought this was a discussion board and not for cuddling only. I have grown my opinion on this engine from first hand experience and endless discussions so I thought I'd share it. That's all.



Tim

[absolutepressure]

In this race, it's about reliability for 22 laps and then ideally, your car would fall apart just after crossing the finish line. Seemingly impractical, but that would be optimal engineering.
So if our driver was holding the controls together as it was crossing the finish line, did we get the blue ribbon?

[BStoney]

Originally posted by Tintin:
If what I wrote is "ripping on people" then I'd be pretty surprised. I thought this was a discussion board and not for cuddling only. I have grown my opinion on this engine from first hand experience and endless discussions so I thought I'd share it. That's all.
Tim

No, but the fact that you accused Kettering of being "not too impressive I'd say" is pretty lame, as maybe they do not have the resources and that was their best solution for their team. If they did the analysis behind the drivetrain, then hell, it was a good engineering decision, now if the counter argument were true, then it's a different story. Nevertheless, just because you don't agree with someone doesn't give you a right to cut them down by calling their work "not impressive..." in your opinion. That is fine, but there are times when possibly opinions are better kept to one's self.

[John Stimpson]

Originally posted by Tintin:
.....I have grown my opinion on this engine from first hand experience and endless discussions so I thought I'd share it. That's all.Tim

Tim, I have no idea what your firsthand experience has been in the past with Mahle, but the fact of the matter is, you have *absolutely* no idea what you're talking about. You continue to use terms such as "IIRC" and AFAIK... Simply put, you are not remembering correctly; and if you are remembering correctly, you do not know whats going on now.

Having established that you do *not* know the ins and outs and what-have-yous of the Mahle powertrain as it relates to Kettering in the year 2007, I'd like to mention that you do in fact have the right to harbor any opinion in the world you'd like to regarding whether or not the Mahle powertrain is good for FSAE, or whether or not its worth design points... Which you've done, so why don't you let this thread get back on topic?

Have a great day!

[ach1]

U of M Dearborn probably has the most unique mutt of an engine out there. We have a 23HP Briggs block with 16HP crank (destroked it to make it legal), which then requires custom rods. Try and find pistons, rods, rockers, valves and a flywheel for a Briggs that can handle 7000RPM. Or just find a wrecked 600F4i off ebay and make an intake and exhaust...


18Hp in 2005
33Hp in 2006
42Hp in 2007

[flavorPacket]

We all have different solutions. Don't knock something that's proven, especially if you can't do better. Some teams like being cool/different, some like being fast, and some can be both.

[VFR750R]

I love the idea of the Mahle and have no problems with it other then the fact that they are not univerally available. If you design your own engine, then its proprietory and your advantage. Having an engineering firm design and build an engine without the FSAE's team input for FSAE isn't fair. The reason why it's ok for the CBR's and YZF's is these engines are widely avalible to any team that chooses them.

If a team where to design their own engine in Cad and farm out the machining that would be cool because they didn't buy the design(ie WWU). They could even steal previous designs such as transmission gears pistons cams ect. This isn't bad because those pistons gears cams are available to everyone. Buying the designed CBR from honda is ok because everyone can do it.

But, in this case it doesn't really matter because the penalty in testing time is WAY worse then the couple horsepower that could be gained. More then likely because this engine isn't turbocharged it will likely be mid pack on HP and the advantages will be limited to the clean packaging of the transaxle which has an unknown and possibly unmeasurable advantage.

Sorry to put you Kettering guys down, but still I'm glad you guys have the engine. There is a lot to learn from it, as much as any team that doesn't do internal modifications...which most teams don't, and it's a welcomed new twist that everyone else should learn from while at competition.

If there is one thing I've learned about racing is you can always learn from a situation. People who are closed minded to it never catch up.

[flavorPacket]

vfr750R, i disagree when you say these engines aren't available. Mahle offered them to pretty much every team in Michigan, and they were universally turned down (except for one).

[VFR750R]

I didn't realize, that wasn't always the case.

[John Stimpson]

We did actually do internal engine mods, by the way. As delivered, the engine had 7.7:1 compression, and we took it to 12:1.

Power went up from 64bhp to 73bhp in so doing.

Haven't had it on the chassis dyno, but last year's CBR did 69.8 as measured at the output shaft of the trans, and 64.3whp at comp.

[kwancho]

7.7-1 from Mahle? Why so low?

[James Waltman]

Originally posted by VFR750R:
If a team where to design their own engine in Cad and farm out the machining that would be cool because they didn't buy the design(ie WWU).

I just want to clarify, the WWU team designed and manufactured that engine all in-house.
Plenty of pictures (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/v30/image001.jpg) on the website (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/v30/v30pics.html) .

Hi Tim. Good to see you on the forum again.

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

James, you guys should bring that engine back down to comp if it is still around...for the drool factor. Any word of WWU will be building another FSAE car?

[James Waltman]

We talked about bringing it with us in 2004.
Just never did it (we didn't want to get shown up by something we brought).

I've graduated now, but WWU had a car at West last year and they'll have a car in Detroit this week.

[Tintin]

Originally posted by James Waltman:
Hi Tim. Good to see you on the forum again.

Thanks, sorry for the stupid nick, my old email-adress is probably no langer valid so I had to make a new one q'n'd and couldn't come up with something better...;-)

I used to lurk once in a while but now I'm a little surprised how the forum has changed in terms of open discussions. So maybe I should finally get away from FSAE and do something real ....;-)

TTFN,


Tim

[VFR750R]

I knew you guys had done the machining but I was using the senario of not machining in house because I believe machining in house or out is both fine if the parts are designed in house. I find zero things wrong and infinite things right with what you guys did.

Sorry if i had caused confusion.

[KU_Racing]

Id like to add a little something to this post- a few people on here seem to think that the addition of the mahle pwertrain package to the kettering FSAE car consisted of "buy engine, bolt into frame, make big power, go drive". As John or any of the other guys can attest to, it was far far beyond that easy. John, if you read this let me know if im right or wrong, but I would say that for the team this year, adding the Mahle setup into the package was much much more difficult than using an evolution of last year's F4i would have been. I would not have made the decision to use the Mahle stuff if I had been the decision maker, but in my mind you have to respect them for making a decision that they knew would increase the difficulty of their project, and then sticking with it and making it happen.

Also, how is using the mahle trans any different than any of the teams that buy the taylor race diff and use that setup? They dont do any major design or engineering either. In my mind, there are too many people that think FSAE should be all about designing EVERY SINGLE part yourself. Engineering is about finding the most efficient and effective solution to a problem. 99% of the time in the real world, that means buying shit from someone else.

[Conor]

Amen to that post. I hope Kettering is kicking ass and I regret I won't be competing myself this year. If any of the Kettering guys want to have a beer during the comp, I'll probably be checking out your car on Saturday.