ACCUSUMP

[Diablo_niterider]

Hey guys was wondering if any of u guys have used this system , Pat Clarke suggested this simple alternative in one of his articles
the link to which is
http://www.formulastudent.de/public-relations/fsg-news/...ts-column-october-1/ (http://www.formulastudent.de/public-relations/fsg-news/news-details/article/pats-column-october-1/)

I found the system really simple to implement ,

www.racerpartswholesale.com/accusump1.htm (http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/accusump1.htm)

the lotus 2-eleven has been fitted with this system

i thought of the following way to apply the system on an f4i
correct me if i m wrong

we can directly connect the main line from the accusump to the main oil gallery which in the f4i is directly accessible ,
i m talking about the golden colored bolt which is openable using an Alan key . this is provided for the oil pressure gauge to be connected to the engine

while the electric valve can be directly connected to the stock oil pressure switch which will automatically actuate the system .

so wat do u guys think of this system ???

Hiren Patel
Powertrain Co-ordinator 2007-09
Orion Racing INDIA
www.orion-racing.com (http://www.orion-racing.com)

[Diablo_niterider]

Hey guys was wondering if any of u guys have used this system , Pat Clarke suggested this simple alternative in one of his articles
the link to which is
http://www.formulastudent.de/public-relations/fsg-news/...ts-column-october-1/ (http://www.formulastudent.de/public-relations/fsg-news/news-details/article/pats-column-october-1/)

I found the system really simple to implement ,

www.racerpartswholesale.com/accusump1.htm (http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/accusump1.htm)

the lotus 2-eleven has been fitted with this system

i thought of the following way to apply the system on an f4i
correct me if i m wrong

we can directly connect the main line from the accusump to the main oil gallery which in the f4i is directly accessible ,
i m talking about the golden colored bolt which is openable using an Alan key . this is provided for the oil pressure gauge to be connected to the engine

while the electric valve can be directly connected to the stock oil pressure switch which will automatically actuate the system .

so wat do u guys think of this system ???

Hiren Patel
Powertrain Co-ordinator 2007-09
Orion Racing INDIA
www.orion-racing.com (http://www.orion-racing.com)

[Chris Boyden]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">while the electric valve can be directly connected to the stock oil pressure switch which will automatically actuate the system </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it will help with transients like any accumulator. It can also be setup to aid with
pre-start oiling. You'd have to design a ciruit connected to the solenoid valve so that it maintains pressure when you cut the ignition, i.e. a relay. Much simpler than a dry sump, but can it sustain a long term high G situation? that would require a pretty large accumulator.

Tying it to the oil pressure switch may provide limited protection, but I could be wrong.
i.e. opening the valve when low pressure(switch shorts to ground) would probably mean that
the circuit would also close the valve when the pressure is high enough to unshort the oil pressure switch from ground. This would leave the accumulator with a fixed charge of pressure and volume of oil. This will not be the highest pressure and volume achievable using the oil pressure switch threshold.
But it may be the simplest and it may give the best transient response to a low pressure event
i.e. maybe the accumulator can respond to the the delta P drop between the accumulator and the pump faster then a circuit can detect the drop, open the solenoid valve and accumulator system.

I would design it in such a way that you get the following behavior:
(Replace the switch with a pressure sensor)
A. When the engine turned off, the valve is closed (May want a high RPM shutdown to store lot's of volume and pressure in the accumulator)
B. When you turn the ignition on, the valve opens pre-oiling the engine to help reduce startup damage. Then start the engine.
C. The valve stays open until Pmax(set by you) is reached. This would occur under some high rpm high flow rate situation.
D. The valve stays closed until Pmin (set by you)is reached. This may be caused by a high g event. The valve opens and the accumulator dumps the oil reserve saving the engine from damage if the response time is fast enough.
Then the system goes back to C where it recharges the accumulator.

Basically, this a hysteresis loop which could be done with a comparator with hysteresis.

Maybe an oil pressure switch with a higher threshold would work better. Maybe the stock switch is fine.

anyway, my two cents, Fun to think about.

[Diablo_niterider]

agreed but i believe the system is suppose to kick in only when there is low oil pressure condition.

Hiren Patel
Tech Head - Powertrain
www.orion-racing.com (http://www.orion-racing.com)
K.J.Somaiya coll .of Engg. ,Bombay
+91-9820399224

[Pete Fodor]

Oil Accumulators are unreliable in proper racing but if the sump is properly baffled i think you should be fine. We've used Accusumps for our 06 and 07 cars and they've been fine.

It was connected in the same sort of fashion as you describe at the end of your post. Just use a banjo and banjo bolt.

The system is good for if you can't afford a dry sump or complexity etc.

[Diablo_niterider]

hey thanks pete

was planning to use an 1-quart 12 inch system with AN-6 hoses , i think it should do , what do u think,
what have you guys been using , and have u had any specific problems. please let me know
planning to order it tmrw.

Hiren Patel
Tech Head - Powertrain
www.orion-racing.com (http://www.orion-racing.com)
K.J.Somaiya coll .of Engg. ,Bombay
+91-9820399224

[mtg]

We used one when I was in school in '04. Basically, the experiment was to chop the oil pan as thin as possible while leaving the engine as a wet sump. Needless to say, we found that limit, and the Accusump was the solution.

It worked very well. Before it, the oil pressure would drop to unsafe levels all the time (we were lucky in not destroying the engine). Afterwards, the low oil pressure light never came on again.

[Pete Fodor]

We used the 1 Quart. They are quite big and bulky but as far as i know we have encountered no specific problems.

If you go as far as redesigning your sump. Make sure you baffle it properly and check the oil galleries etc. As some engines have things poking out into the sump.
Like tubes and regulators. Also make sure that you support the regulator in whatever new sump you make. Depends on your type of engine if you have to do this or not but ours needed it.


Regards Pete

[Composites Guy]

I don't understand why you want to add all the fancy tricks with wiring the Accusump valve? Isn't the point that you turn in on (release the reserve oil in the cylinder) just prior to startup to protect the engine at startup... AND after that the cylinder moves back and forth as neccessary ON ITS OWN to supplement the engine oil pressure as needed. So why keep turning the thing on and off?

[Horace]

Pete,

Mind if I ask how many pounds the 1 quart version weigh?

[Chris Boyden]

Composites Guy,

Well, I definitely believe in KISS
but, maybe my imagination is running away on me.

I agree with your first point. That you should prelube on startup.

And maybe 1 qt of reserved storage (at the pressure before the transient) is enough to protect the engine during all the low pressure transients

I'm picturing a system that injects oil when the pressure gets too low. Whereas, running continuously, the accusump may be running low along with the oil pump at a low pressure and be unable to supply anything extra to save the engine on its own.

The oil pressure gets higher with RPM (yea, there are curves) and by dynamically storing volume and pressure, you may get better performance at the added cost of complication.
i.e. store volume and pressure when it's good, and dump it when it's bad strategy.

A simple threshold would dump and store at one pressure,
A system with hysteresis would dump at low and store at high.

After looking at accusumps website, they actually have something like that, but
it maybe involves a check valve for refills(allows refills, checks dumps) and
opens at a low pressure setting. hysteresis would be the difference in the check valve open pressure and the low pressure setting

the following is taken from their site.

Option 1 Manual Valve: Open it before you start the engine
A valve controls the flow of oil between the engine the Accusump. In hard core racing applications a manual valve is used for simplicity. This valve can be mounted either on the Accusump directly or plumbed anywhere convenient along the feed line. With this valve, the operator has to manually open the valve before starting the engine and close the valve before shutting the engine off.
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Option 2: Electric Open on Ignition On
For other applications an electric valve can simplify it's use. They are ideal when used in applications where it is difficult to access a manual valve lever or to plumb the Accusump remotely like in a 'daily driver', boat, or an RV. This electric valve can be opened and closed from a remote dash-mounted switch or it can be wired directly into the ignition so it will open and close automatically when the ignition is in the 'on' or the 'off' position.
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Option 3: Smart Valve
Our E.P.C. valving is ideal for those looking for the convenience of an electric valve and the fast refill rate required in racing applications. The pressure control system keeps the electric valve in the off position during times of normal oil pressure. With the valve in the off position the Accusump is able to quickly regain oil pressure after discharge, thus being ready for the next oil surge. When the engine's oil pressure drops below a predetermined level the valve opens and releases the stored oil in to the system.



So, I guess, I have a similar imagination after all. guess I'm not crazy, just nerdy.

[Geoffct]

Just an FYI, accumulators are relatively easy to make. This is really helpful when you just can't package the standard ones. It's just an aluminum tube tank with a piston separating the air and oil sides. You can save even more weight and/or lower weight if run a hose to the a separate air tank, just remember it sees about 5-7bar pressure.

If you're running a non-drysump motorcycle engine, you need one of these.

[F-125]

Hi Guys,

I'm new in here and didn't want to start a new thread. I have a question about the GSXR 600 oil pan (for lack of a better discription) and how to alter it.

If I should start a new subject let me know, I do have quite a few questions about the GSXR.

Thanks!

[Pete Fodor]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Horace:
Pete,

Mind if I ask how many pounds the 1 quart version weigh? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

7 or 8 pounds...

[adrial]

IMO you had better be able to REALLY justify adding an 8lbs canister + the additional oil + the lines.

Wet sump with proper baffling works just fine if you ask me and the oil pressure we've datalogged while driving (though only at ~15hz).

[Pete Fodor]

I overexaggerated its probably 3-4 pounds
i had to convert from kilos to pounds.

But Banjos, banjo bolts Hoses, Mounting brackets, and the extra oil etc add up to quite a bit of extra weight.

I agree with Adrial now that a proper baffled sump will work better.

Though no one seems to have asked the question how do you design a baffled sump.

[Diablo_niterider]

hey guys ,

can u guys post pictures of your baffled sumps , the ones that worked and the others that didnt...

[fart can]

So does anyone actually test their oil? If not how do you know you're not wearing the engine due to lack of oil pressure?

[Diablo_niterider]

hey

most of the temas use the oil grades which are specified by the engine manufacturer. hence not much gain going into oil testing here.

but there are a few teams which have developed their own engines


RMIT- single cylinder
WWu- v-8
and other teams who helped develop the 3 cylinder mahle engine must have some experience

also would like to know how many teams have developed a comp spec engine using higher capacity engines eg-750 cc engines

would be interesting to hear from these guys about their experience.

one method i heard of was from Shell, they take X-rays shots of the oil used by an f1 car during testing to check its compostion after a few laps.

[fart can]

Going by the manufacturer's specs is not a bad place to start, but assuming you're fine is horrible.

How do you know your service intervals?

How do you know if there is abnormal bearing
wear?

How do you know your air filter works?

How do you know if fuel is blowing by your piston rings, thinning your oil?

How do you know if that low pressure light blip actually ment bearing wear?

You don't, unless you test your oil. Otherwise you're just guessing.

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

If I were about to add a several pound component to the vehicle, like accusump, I would want to be certain we actually needed it.

As of now, I'm not convinced it's necessary. But if I see data saying otherwise I'll be sure to post.

[Kakarot]

I would avoid the ACCUSUMP, and would just go the next step and do a simple system with a 2 stage dry pump system and be done with it.

ACCUSUMP is a auxiliary system meant for a engines that have starvation at high RPM. In other words, in mid RPM there is a max pressure, and then at higher rpm it starves, ACCUSUMP would supply extra oil at higher RPM. Usually on a supped up V8 that run faster that stock. The oil pump starts to cavitate the oil.

The benefit of not having a high volume pumps on cars are the lower pump losses.

[James Waltman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kakarot:
I would avoid the ACCUSUMP, and would just go the next step and do a simple system with a 2 stage dry pump system and be done with it.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Adding a dry sump is no small task.

A dry sump adds a lot of things you don't want to add – weight, cost, complexity, time, and more.
It's even likely to compromise reliability – the thing you were trying to solve by adding it.

I'll be the first to admit that the one I was involved with was overly ambitious and overly complicated.
Pictures of it can be found on this forum.

Let's see some pics of your setup Yuri.

[fart can]

In my humble opinion, I would avoid a dry sump like the plague, unless you are running a turbo.

We did the calculations, and it did not drop the overall cg of our car by a huge amount.

Not that it can't be done, but I've seen some strong teams DNF endurance because of dry sump issues.