So the Burning Question?????????

[someguy]

well at least in my mind:

Which compeition is the best to participate in?

With the ever increaseing number of competitions worldwide and in the US, is any one better than the other? judging, competing?

the reason i ask is that the school i plan to transfer to only participates (for the time being) in Formula SAE (East). I know that cost can be prohibitive to the number of comps a school can attend, but is any one comp better than the others?

my reason for asking is that i am basing my decision on transferring on a college's participation and excellence. This is truly only one factor but an important one in my mind.

thanx for any help you can give.

[someguy]

apparently it's the not so burning question!!! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Steve Yao]

A bit on the long side...

U Washington went to West this year and plans to attended West for 2007. Budget and time precludes us from attending more than one competition under our current circumstances. East occurs during our midterms, while West occurs the week after finals(we're on a quarter system).

Logistically, each on has its own challenges; East having most of the team fly, but West having all the graduating seniors on the team tied up with family the weekend before we ship out.

I have not been to the Ford Proving Grounds, but I understand site access was a PITA, and weather spelled disaster for many teams. On the positive side, it is the largest FSAE event with probably the greatest depth of teams.

The West competition was fantastic IMO. Site access was a breeze, and it was sunny and warm(or hot) for the duration. Teams did have to push the cars rather far to reach the dynamic events and there was a small issue with the first trucks in line on Wednesday being stuck in Paddock areas that were actually the farthest from everything. Spectator areas were close to the dynamic events. We missed some top competitors like UWA(registered but did not show) and UTA(showed but had engine/fuel troubles). However we did see teams who competed in East. Our advisor counted 15 teams that competed in East and West. On average they improved their placing from 25th to 6th. 7 of the 15 finished in the Top 10. These teams had 1 month between the competitions to improve their dynamic and static scores having been through East(and Australasia teams having 6 months on top of that and two comps under their belt). And the East winner, RMIT, did not win either Design, Endurance, or the Overall. Like East, all static events were in-doors.

This is all to say that West is a very competitive field. And could be argued allows teams the fairest chance to show what they can do. Weather is great, tires get hotter, and the track surface is not actually designed to be flooded like the proving grounds.

Of course you and your team will have to get together and decide what will work best for your program; logistically, financially, competitively, and educationally.

[mtg]

After going through FSAE, that's not a real important point. If you get to the point where which competition you go to makes a difference in your educational experience, then you have most definitely climbed the hierarchy in the team where you can decide which competition the team goes to (ie you're the team leader).

So, my point is, don't worry about it. You'd be better off worrying about how you can help whatever team you join do their best.

Good luck.

[Handy Andy]

After attending both competitions this year (East and West) I came across some stark differences. The east competiton is the big Daddy. Almost double the number of cars competed, as well as more sponsors and spectators. The event was well run, but the weather sucked, and has sucked pretty much every year. On a positive note, the judges are veterans, so they know the way around the rules, and all the different interpritations.
West was a blast though. Nice weather, Nice facility, nice competition, but rookie judges.

So really, it depends on what your team is good at, statics or dynamics. Your car will perform better in California, But your presentation will do better in Detroit.

[Answerforsomeguy]

Are peoples memories that short. 2005 Detroit. Sunny and warm. I remember the sunburn from watching Endurance. 2004 Detroit. Lightning strike 40 feet away caused a blue flash in our tent. Weather is unpredictable so basing the merits of the competitions on that fact is useless, if it rains it rains, thats racing. If your team can only drive competitively in the hot sun, the car's not that good in the first place. With the high level of competition now, being good in either dynamics or statics and not both means you're not going to win anyways and you should be more worried about improving your car then picking your comp..

And what about the comps in Australia, England, Germany, Italy, Japan.

Its not the competition that makes it best, its the cars that compete within it. You can have the best organized event but if none of the teams are at a high level that competition is not as good. Having a lot of competitive teams just pushes everyone that much more to step up their game.

As for joining a school based on their FSAE success. Are you a fortune teller. How do you know that team will still be successful by your senior or even second year? How many teams have some good years and then drop off the face of the earth. A team with a set structure might not be able to adapt to the increased competition. Is it better to join a team controlled by Faculty or one with no Faculty involvement whatsoever? And who says East will be better then West or vice versa two, three or four years from now.

Its funny that the two replies about which competition is best come from people who have been to only East and the single West. Wow, what a wealth of combined knowledge. Based upon my overwhelming FSAE experience of attending only 2 comps I am more than qualified to weigh in on which competition is best and grace everyone with my witty banter.

Here's an idea, maybe someone from RMIT or Oxford Brookes should give a comparison. At least they compete internationally at more than one comp and have an excellent car.

The top teams aren't even American anymore as American teams are too afraid to leave their own borders. And any fool who says it's a money issue, tell me how 7 Canadian teams made it to FS last year. I have the utmost respect for any team that competes internationally. Not many teams understand how logistically difficult it is to organize the trip or to even compete.

So "someguy"� maybe the best team to join is one that is adaptive, does more than just race at one comp in their own country and one in which you can contribute to and advance rather then be lost in its juggernaught size.

[Mauricio Madrid]

I think the west was a better location, weather, and facilities. I think the west will open to more teams in the future because the paddocks could handle alot more teams. I did not like the facilities in romeo, michigan. the weather in romeo was horrible and viewing the dynamic events was dissapointing. getting on and off site was a pain. good things about romeo was that the awards seremony was excellent, oficials were better, and its the flagship compitition for fsae.

the west facility had several very competitive teams there, not as much as detroit but i think after this year more will attend, maybe cornell will come too. i loved the weather and facilities (almost the ideal situation). The track was great and spectator viewing was good too. site access was easy and parking was very close. paddocks were excellent. road and track was there and now they have two tropies, one for east and one for west. R&T retired the trophy that the passed on to the new winner each year with the 2005 a&M win and now they have 2 seperate tropies for east and west that the winner keeps indefinatly. On the negative side the officals were not as good as the east and the awards seremony was not near as good as in MI.

my personal choice is the west, but not everyone agrees with me. each place has its good and bad but IMHO the west had very little bad.

[Ehsan]

For those that are harping on the Romeo FPG being a bad location, I would agree with you. But also be aware that holding the event there was a last minute move when no other site materialized after the Silverdome was no longer an option. I chatted with some people who said Ford was not totally keen on having us there for the obvious logistical reasons and the same ones that caused limitations that bothered all of us.

I have no idea what other locations they are looking at using next year but I at least know that they are trying to find something better suited to hosting us. So lets reserve judgement about the '07 East competition until we know the details.

[Anthony V]

I competed in FSAE for 3 years, and we competed in both East and West this past year. Like everyone has said...pros and cons of each.

West had better access than East, West pits had some more room and all were in a central location. Both required a bit of walking to fueling/dynamic areas. Some people griped about this but at least the lines didnt snake all over the place THROUGH the pits they way they did at East when it used to be at the Silverdome. Spectator viewing was probably better at West. From a drivers perspective, I thought East was awesome. The tarmac was as good as you are gonna get. West's tarmac was nice in sections but had some track-to-access road transitions that were not as smooth, and even went through sections that normally would be considered run-off or the "dirty line." West coast was harder on the car cuz bumps and heat. But i cant say it was bad cuz our car finished endurance at both East and West.

I agree that the judging had more depth at East.

East is still the premier competition since so many more teams attend. I would say it is a little more well respected. Only 50 some teams actually competed at West vs 120ish at East. However, having placed top 10 at both, I think the level of top 10 teams was similar from one to another. I think there are a lot more 'middle of the road teams' at East.

Obviously, the Cali sun was nice vs the unpredictable nature of East. The competition gets tougher and tougher each year. Just as someone else mentioned, if your team is serious about strong success, you have to be good in both static and dynamic events.

-2cents

[Moke]

Like "answer" said to compaire comps one must travel to other than one. Cost shouldn't be a limiting factor. We (Auckland NZ) must travel by air to our nearest comp (FSAE-A) and this year traveling to Germany (I think you can't get any further away than that), so we budget it and then find cash for it. I think it's a fair comment about US teams not traveling, (none at FSAE-A '05 and FSG '06), if you want to claim world class standards you must leave the world of the USA.

PS FSG looks like the bussiness, but I'll let know in 18days.

[olsen5]

Some of the North American teams do travel though. Toronto has been going to FS UK for years now, and we, Windsor, are going to be at FSG in a couple weeks. I can't remember how many North American teams were at FS UK last year but there was a few. I'm going to reserve judgement on competitions until after FSG.

Bret
Windsor FSAE

[Answerforsomeguy]

Bret, your comments are valid, but I don't think its fair to the Canadians (youself included) to group their efforts in the same category as the Americans. It appears support for Canadian teams is quite low from your schools and companies considering the number of teams your country has put forward.

Brent, some American teams do travel. Dartmouth finished 7th at FS and UTA used to travel around a lot as well as Georgia Tech.

So what are the best Competitions:
FSAE East
Australia
FS
Note that Australia and FS may surpass FSAE East in the next year as the Australian teams are very good and the European ones are quickly advancing. Also the Canadians introduce an interesting dynamic every year. Send ETS, Waterloo and Toronto to FS, FSG or Australia and you start to have a real amazing competition on your hands if TUG, Helsinki, Oxford Brookes RMIT, Western Australia and Wollongong are there too. Throw in Cornell, Texas A&M and UTA and you have the best competition ever.
Next Level:
FSG
Japan
The FSG organizers really put in a lot of effort and were smart to do a 1st year trial run. I think this would be an excellent competition to go to I just want to wait and see how this year goes. Japan only suffers because of the lack of international flavour but they seem to have a large field for this year and are stepping up.
Next
Italy
Italy suffers from low attendance which hurts it, however I see FS, FSG and Italy becoming a Triple Crown affair where teams compete in all three. A very excellent option for the Europeans.
Next
FSAE West
West was introduced, not because of the large fields in FSAE East (considering the number of no-shows, half-assed throw togethers and the number of teams that ran both comps means there would be enough room for 140 teams at East) but to give a chance to their own American teams to run 2 comps without having to leave the country. Note that other than UTA and Georgia Tech (going back to 2004 and later), American teams have been uncompetitive around the world.

So theres the list of the best.

[Mike T.]

Wow. Care to share your name or university affiliation, Answerforsomeguy? I'm going to guess that you are from somehwere in Europe or Canada based on your ranking of the competitions. Can it not be left at the fact that you cannot really compare event to event?

I'm curious if you attended the FSAE West competition and would like to know what you are basing your comments about US teams not being competitive upon? Knowing that teams like Toronto, RMIT, UWA, etc. are the top teams at the non US and US events, the winning margin in points from the remaining 9 teams of the top 10 from one competition to another are not drastically different. I'd say that you can get a much better idea of the relative merits of the competitions and how competitive the participating teams are by looking at this distribution of scores than you can based on you personal impressions alone. In fact, I'll even venture to say that based on how the endurance and autocross/sprint scores of the top 10 teams are spread and Toronto's scores in the UK and US that the East event is definitely the most competitive dynamically and the West event even compares with FS.

Even so, all of this is useless banter since no one competition will ever truly be the 'world championship'. Each competition will have a top tier of teams, and chances are that top tier will be close to equally competitive, wherever the competing teams are from. Unless the team you are considering joining is a top team, the choice of competition should come down to which makes the most sense considering their location and available resources.

Mike Trumbore
University of Washington '03-'06

[someguy]

i was beginning to think no one would weigh in with their observations.

answerforme- no im not a furtuneteller, but i can compile statistics and also talk to schools to see how much importance they place on this program. top tier schools will contiune to draw students interested in their program because of thier past success. this will help perpetuate the program.

im not looking at teams with good years, but rather teams with consistent participation and top finishes.

in 2-3 years from now japan may have the best comp. but im only asking for today's opinion.

i dont think american teams are afraid to leave thier own borders. why should they when the world comes to play in their backyard. east and west coast. (this may only be for the time being as other comps may overshadow east)

moke-"if you want to claim world class standards you must leave the world of the USA." very true.

mike t- my number one choice is a top team. they are one of the smaller teams with more of a limited budget but have been consistent over the last 10 years with top 10 and 5 finishes. thier team is destined for big things. (i'll leave it at that)

i have considered my local colleges but i want to be at the top. if im going to do this for a living anything less then exceptional is not worth it.

but then again i am still a student and you all are more experienced than i. any comments?

[mtg]

Originally posted by someguy:
i have considered my local colleges but i want to be at the top. if im going to do this for a living anything less then exceptional is not worth it.

any comments?

Joining a solid team will definitely help to put you at the top, but along the same lines I posted above...

YOU are the one that has to make the difference if you want nothing less than exceptional. You can't just join the best team out there and go along for the ride- then you'll just be a follower.

If you take charge at a team that's always been at the top and put in another solid finish, that's great. But, it would be better if you took a so-so team and put them at the top- that is a bigger accomplishment that you will learn more from.

As long as you go to a school that has a team with enough support so your effort is put into beating the competition and not the school's red tape, you'll be fine. The greatness is then left up to you.

[Answerforsomeguy]

Mike, really, why must you use flawed reasoning to make an argument.

"I'd say that you can get a much better idea of the relative merits of the competitions and how competitive the participating teams are by looking at this distribution of scores than you can based on you personal impressions alone. In fact, I'll even venture to say that based on how the endurance and autocross/sprint scores of the top 10 teams are spread" (note: this is based on the top ten so that this quote is not taken out of context)

One of the major factors controlling point distribution is the number of vehicles entered in the event. If you have 120 teams at a competition compared to 50 there will be smaller point differences between positions due to the way points are given at the competition. To equate this to the level of competition is flawed. If you held an event with only the top 15 teams you'll still have a large points spread even though the teams are all very competitive. But then any engineer could easily determine this fact.

As to what University I'm affiliated with, what does it matter and who says I'm even in a University. I could be a judge, official, student, faculty advisor or someone who just follows the series. Do you think I'm European or Canadian because of my criticisms of the American teams. Sorry to tell you this but its a world-wide sentiment.

All the comps can't be directly compared which is why I gave levels and thoughts about their direction. Its obvious to state great weather in West and Australia and to say the design judging is at a higher level then the other comps at East. The levels were given to show if I had unlimited resources which comps in which order I would attend.

Someguy - Its good to see you did some research and are going to one of the smaller teams, hopefully you'll rise in their ranks and do well. I wish you luck, but be mindful of the future and be ready to adapt. Joining a FSAE team can set you on a path you never expected and after your 3-5 years you'll be a totally new person - in a better way of course.

It's not just myself who think the Americans teams are losing their reputation. The competition has grown. Top teams in the world are only considered top because they compete in more then their home event, they travel and compete well in multiple events. Teams who can travel half a world away and still win show truly are at the top of the field.

Lets look at an interesting case that has been brought up numerous times around the world.
Helsinki vs Toronto.
Since 2003 Helsinki and Toronto have competed in East and FS. Helsinki beats Toronto at East every single year. 2 months later Toronto beats Helsinki in FS every single year. A fact that has annoyed Helsinki and Toronto. Both teams seem to have the same schedule, get the cars done early, and test before and between the comps. Does this mean FS is not as good as East or vice versa? No it doesn't. It means each comp is different and that is the benefit of having so many competition is so many different countries. The variety: of tracks, judging and philosophies. Both these teams do well in both comps which are extremely different. That is why they are premiere teams, because they are competitive in such a diverse range. Same goes for RMIT, TUG, Western Australia, Oxford Brookes and in the past UTA and Georgia Tech. American teams are only competitive in American events showing their teams are one dimensional and can only compete well under certain conditions.

[Mike T.]

Answerforsomeguy:

"One of the major factors controlling point distribution is the number of vehicles entered in the event..."

Why must you make such statements without examining the actual results or the rules that describe how the events are scored? Dynamic events are scored based on how far a given team's time is from the quickest time, so scores for these events do not depend at all upon the number of competing teams. The cost score is mostly based on the overall cost of a given car, and is a function of the cost and the least cost alone. Again, the number of competing teams does not come into play. Depending upon how the judges score the presentation event, the scores may or may not reflect the number of competing teams. However, as the rules are written, presentations are to be judged on a 50 point scale, and assuming the same criteria for all teams the number of teams should not have an impact. Design scores are solely at the judges' discretion, though if you look at the scores given for the semifinals/finals range of teams are similar. Considering all of this, I still stand by my previous statements about using scores as a better way of equating the level of competition than impressions of them alone. Of course we will all have some kind of bias based on preconceived notions of other countries or cultures that will affect our impressions of the different events, but looking at things based on scores is a way of eliminating this and getting a more accurate comparison of the level of competition between events. For these reasons, I also disagree with what you stated about the scores being more spread out for a compeition of only the top 15 teams from around the world. If this could happen, and be governed by the same rules every other event are, I think we would actually see much closer scores reflecting the higher level of competition.

As for who you are, it lends to your credibility. I assumed you are not from america based on your descriptions of the different levels of competition, and that to you it seems a perfectly reasonable sentiment that we should go abroad to prove our competitiveness when we have what even you consider the most competitive event right in our backyard. If the trend of increasing competitiveness of other events continues until it surpasses the US event, then I'm sure the top american teams will travel wherever they need to to compete at the highest level, just as Oxford Brookes, RMIT, UWA, etc. have in coming to the US.

Someguy:

Having been a member of the UW team for the past 4 years, during a time of relative success for our university (2 consecutive 5th place finishes, 3 design semifinals, and 4th at West this year), I would encourage your choice to go to a small team that does well with limited resources. As 'Answerforsomeguy' said, and from my experience, you will learn a ton and be much better off for it.

I'll also add something else that has not been mentioned yet. Make sure that you approach the team without being particularily set on working on one particular system of the car unless you are already experienced and exceptionally skilled at it. You will be valuable to the team if you are dedicated and work hard, and must be willing to do so doing whatever it is your team needs you to. Also, make sure that you take in any knowledge about the different systems of the car you can, it will help you in your design tasks with the car in the future if you are well rounded about all systems and how they integrate with each other. I began with a limited knowledge of powertrain systems, and though I didn't particularily want to work on the suspension, that was where I was needed. Now, 4 years later, I've designed two chassis/suspension systems and many components, and have come to find vehicle dynamics much more interesting than I'd have ever imagined. In short, be very open to learning and applying new things.

Mike Trumbore
University of Washington '03-'06

[Answerforsomeguy]

Mike - From a purely mathematical standpoint you are correct. But you need to consider the subjectivity and human nature involved in the static events. As stated before a team needs to be strong in both statics and dynamics to win and place well. A poor static performance can easily drop a team 10 positions.

Consider Design: Its based on a relative scale of where your car is compared to the best. However if in a competition of 15 teams in which they all are excellent in design not all 15 will get 100 points or more. They will be distributed amoung the range. The worst will get low points of 50's and 70's while the top team will get the 150. All others fall in this range. The number of teams determines the ranges by which they are separated.
Same for Presentation: Yes its based off of your 50 point score, but what determines that score. Its based on your performance against the other teams. Once again the range will be used to its full extent regardless if all the teams competing are at the same level, that's human nature. This can be seen in other sports where the judging style (only in the case of Presentation) is similar.
Cost is the Same: The scoring of the actual report and presentation of manufacturing processes is in the same category as presentation and design. Once again bringing a variability due to the number of reports submitted and quality.
So yes, number of teams will have an effect and a particularly large effect if all the teams are few and very close in level.
Also remember presentation scores are adjusted after the fact to try to bring all the judging groups onto the same level.

The point differences generated by these three events can have a substantial effect on the final score. Looking at dynamic scores can tell you how close cars are dynamically. Looking at a teams accleration scores relative to skidpad and autocroos can give an idea who team is strong in a straight line and which can take a corner. Unfortunately Endurance stint times aren't posted, which helps to identify the capabilities of a team's drivers.

As design presentation and cost will always be subjective you must always be aware of the human element in the scores.

On the other point:
Even if the other comps grow in status I don't see many American teams travelling outside their country. This seems more an American cultural aspect as seen in other sports and events.

I'll leave off with this little tidbit from a British show.
"So the US won the World Series" - British Actor
"Yes" - American accented actor
"And what country did they beat again?" - British Actor
...Silence
End of skit.

[VFR750R]

Wouldn't the points be closer when there are more teams. The way it is explained above, it's almost assured. If you have 100 teams compete, you will get a fairly full distribution of speeds and a 'average' point spread. Now if you have 200 teams they will be dispersed among the initial 100 teams. The avg. point spread will get tighter over the entire bell curve.

Now, IMHO, the East comp still is, and will for the forseable future be the 'big daddy' of the comps. The most cars, most of the best teams statistically, with the most overseas competitors. The big three, which are the main sponsors will always be at the east event, and most companies outside of FSAE count it as 'the' competition for most of the reasons above plus maybe some others.

But, after saying all that, is it the best competition....maybe not. Each team has it's own goals to set, and it's a case by case basis for each team to decide the best comp for them. Obviously if a Japanese team wants to compete, there are a lot of pros to going to the Japanese event, and in Japan they may get more recognition getting 3rd in the Japanese event then finishing 15th in the US event.
For Cornell, going to the east event will always be the primary event, due to timing and location to us. I'm sure the guys would love to go to the west event but it's almost a month after finals and almost none of the team stays in Ithaca over the summer. If the the events switched dates, we may be forced to make the cross country track.

[Handy Andy]

With all due respect, why would us American teams want to leave the U.S. to compete? If we can compete against 50 to 75 other american cars here, as well as have multiple sponsors at the event ( such as P.E.) why would we leave? Other top notch international teams obviously feel that the trip to the U.S is worth it, so why shouldnt we feel the same. I am not trying to add to the anti-American sentiment, but what we have going withtin our borders works plenty well for us.

[The Real Ruska]

The burning question is not what event is the best. You can't compare the competitions.
Coming from a team which is located in Europe I got a different view to this question and a different answer. As student I attend on 7 comps, 4 in UK 2 in Australia and once in Detroit (East now). Why teams go to other countries, spend a lot of money? For us it was just have a second competition and get some experience. Get in touch with other people from all over the world and show what we have done and how good our work is. We didn't care about the question "is that the competition with the best teams"�. We made out decision like: competition date, cost, organization of the comp. and most important the country where the comp. is held. If you spend a lot of money for the trip form your private budget, then you want to go to a place you would like to go.

Regarding the comp and the quality of the cars itself, you can't compare! Of course you have the rules and the calculations for the points and times etc. but make this the comp. and the cars comparable. No, because the judging is different, even from year to year at the same competition. A team won design in US must not win in UK! As long as you didn't attend different competition by yourself you can not make any comments about the competitions.

I think a Team should try to go to at least one oversea competition, not only because the competition, more than that to get in contact with other cultures, made new experiences, learning new things etc.

So don't try to compare competition and their results. If you want to go to another comp; than think about the spirit of the comp; think about the special things who making it worth to go to that competition.

Ruska

[Uncle Spam]

I dont want to be too anit-american but could you please think about your 'why should we leave america?' post.

The world is bigger than america, especially when it comes to fsae cars.

[The Real Ruska]

Of course you try to win, if you go to a competition, but what you wrote sounds like the European Events are 2nd choise competitions. I think you will get surprised, because the europe teams get better and better each year. And their steps are much bigger than you think.

By the way, not 25% finished enduro in UK this year, nearly 50% finished.

So if you once made a trip to another comp overseas you will make experiences you will never forget. And this will not be the winning experience. You will hthinkk different when you will leave the university and look back some years later.

But if your reason for traveling is just racing, that is ok, but from my side of view FSAE is a learning experience, not only a from the technical point of view, also from the social one.

IMHO US Teams should travel more to oversea competition. I would be great if they are looking over their borders. because the world is bigger!

Frank

[billywight]

All of this still goes back to the point of why an American team would want to go to any event other than Detroit or Fontana...And at this time there is no need. EVERY dominant team around the world except Graz, and maybe some Japanese teams im unaware of, were at either EAst or West this year. And ill bet with Graz's reputation, and apparent budget, they are considering coming next year. The best place to get international information/social exchange just happens to be in our backyard. And were all aware that the world is bigger; how else would we know not to go to an oversea competition if we weren't all keeping an eye on them ; )

-nick
University of Kansas


Sorry, I didn't read the whole post, but have you been to a competition before (and competed, not just spectated)? I am always impressed with the Austrailan teams (and multiple other foriegn teams for that matter) and how well they do here in the US. I haven't been to the Ausie comp, but it would definetaly interest me, especially after they come here and do consistently well every year (especially Western Australia, RMIT, and Wollongong). These guys are always friendly and willing to talk about their designs, etc, and they are always on top of their shit too. It's cool to be pro-american if that's your thing, but you shouldn't put off all the other comps (and countries) as inferior just because your american... Also your comments earlier seem pretty arrogant - when you have built a car and competed, then you have the right to talk, although you may have a different opinion (and more respect) at that point. If it weren't for funding issues, our team (UCSD) would be all over the world - it would be a great learning experience and give more imput on what other teams are doing, not to mention a whole lot of fun.

[billywight]

Maybe the reason no American teams travel anymore is because they dont think they would have a chance at winning anywhere else; nah that couldnt be, were all cocky remember. That means you too Billy, youre part of the generalization with the rest of us.

Huh? Did you not read my post? Ouy team didn't travel to another comp because we didn't have the money. We're too small (6ish members) to have a sponsorchip team, etc. - we were too busy designing/building the car. Obviously our main intention at a foreign comp would be to try and win, but it's far from the only benefit. I can see your point as a cost vs. benefit example, but if you can get the money, why not go?

It's great that RMIT, UWA, UW, Brookes, Helsinki, Hertfordshire, Sophia, etc all come here, but we're still missing all the other schoos that can't make it. Wouldn't it be nice to get the experience of seeing all them too?

[Big Bird]

I'm going to be careful what I say here - I'm hoping the intentions of some of the comments above aren't as conceited as they may seem. Thanks to Billy and others for making an effort to see how such comments may be interpreted from outside US borders.

My question to those that think they don't have to leave their own back yard – why do you assume we internationals are going to keep coming to you? Is it our obligation somehow? And when the day comes that we don't – are you going to convince yourselves that yours is still the most important event in the world? It might have been so in the past – but the rest of the world has caught up.

Just because teams have travelled to you in the past doesn't mean they can keep doing so indefinitely. I know within our team, we have busted ourselves physically and financially to do overseas comps the last three years. Speaking to the UWA and UoW faculty advisors, they have similar issues. Our teams have made the effort, and used up a lot of goodwill and local resources, in order to prove that Australian engineering can compete at an international level. Now we have achieved that goal, future teams may not see it as being so important.

It is only going to get harder for us, as the novelty of going overseas to compete wears thin on our supporters, and we can't keep hijacking money and resources from our unis when there are other worthy causes to fund as well. Certainly there is doubt within my own uni as to whether we can make it back next year. So we can ask the same questions you can. Why should we spend the money to travel OS, just to compete at the same level and with the same teams as we do at home? With due respect, it ain't to entertain you guys.

Do you want to convince the world that American engineering is international standard? Then have a go at what the rest of us are doing. Try building a car whilst at the same time sending half your team across to the other side of the world with half your money. Take on a couple of extra part time jobs while you are studying just so you can afford the airfares. Negotiate exam postponements with belligerent lecturers. Give up your summer holiday. Is it hard? Too damn right it is. But the reason we were getting job offers in the US were because we could do all the stuff that you guys were doing, and then deal with all the other hassles related to doing it all again around the other side of the world.

If you don't want to take up the challenge, then no sweat – that's your choice. But there are other teams around the globe who are doing more with this formula than you are, and those of you content to stay at home and copy each others cars are starting to look a bit stale. The world is chasing engineers with global outlook, and you won't get it by sitting at home and gazing into your own navel.

My apologies if the above seemed like an all-inclusive swipe at our American friends, it wasn't meant to be. I'm only trying to wake up the few (represented by comments above), who give the impression that the world should come to them. From the experiences on our recent trip, I'm glad to say we found that attitude very rarely.

So anyway, onto the original intent of this topic. My comments regarding events – based on four different events attended:
Best / most challenging Design Event – FSAE East / West (tie)
Best / most challenging Cost Event – FStudent UK (really incisive manufacturing questions)
Best Presentation Event - FStudent UK (interested judges, great feedback)
Best Autocross / Endurance Event - FStudent UK (track layout is fantastic)
Best Skid Pad event – FSAE East (weather, track surface)
Best Acceleration Event – not a priority
Best Organization – FSAE Oz
Best Facilities – FSAE Oz
Best weather – FSAE Oz
Highest standard of cars – FSAE Oz
Most technically interesting cars – FStudent (some of the stuff there is just brilliant)
Best feedback on designs – FSAE East / West (tie)
Best after-party – FSAE Oz / FStudent (tie)
Nicest surroundings – FStudent
Best career networking options – FStudent 1st, rest equal
Event I just really want to do – FSAE Japan

And my personal prediction – the next big event is FS Germany. The Germans and Austrians (note – AUSTRIA, not Australia) are picking this game up quicker than anyone else I've seen, and have built some fantastic cars right from day one. And the event itself looks like it is going to be a beauty. If I were to recommend a must do event, that would be it.

Cheers all,

[Answerforsomeguy]

VFR750R - Thank you for also bringing up the statistical aspect in the results of ever increasing field sizes. I had considered this argument but it does not help support the point I was trying to make if we consider a field where all teams are at the relatively same level. Using a statistical point of view you are assuming that with increased numbers you also introduce an increased range of team levels (in terms of performance and ability). Obviously this is true in the real world but as Mike was taking a purely theoretical mathematical approach I thought it would be best to try to match it.

Handy Andy: As many of the non-American FSAE members have stated, they compete in multiple events in order to compete, experience the variety. This brings a whole new learning experience. By going to multiple events new points are brought to your attention, new designs philosophies and ideas are seen which could not be experienced if you only travel to one event. These new experiences only help in the design of your next car which in the end makes your team better and more competitive. That is where the Americans teams are losing ground. Yes they can progress by only competing in their home country, but all the other teams can progress at a faster rate by going around the world and adding new aspects to their team from each of the events.

Andy and Nick: The arrogance in your comments is disgusting. "If all the kids come to play at my house why the hell should I bother to go over to theirs."� Don't worry the non-American teams may just stop coming to play with the Americans. The comments made by non-Americans is not American bashing but appears to be world-wide criticism of American arrogance. If you want true American bashing that can easily follow. Or just watch the number of American television shows on your Comedy Central I believe it's called. The Colbert Report, an excellent satirical show on American patriotism. A true comical genius.

Upon the comments coming from American teams I think it may actually be better they not travel. Imagine if nick ever won a competition. The world would probably never hear the end of it. But of course based on Nick's comments it seems the only reason Kansas will compete in FS is because all the other teams are of such low quality they could easily win. The amount of class you show is very disappointing but not unexpected.

The anonymity of basic names has been taken due to the pettiness of many people in this series. As Mike said, a name brings with it credibility, although even though he had credibility he lacked the understanding of the points system. The comments themselves bring credibility. Though I have given criticism I have kept it humane and I have backed up my comments.

Big Bird: It's difficult for me to get to Australia and I would love to continue seeing your cars. However FS and FSG would probably appreciate the Australian teams appearance. You got across the point of travelling overseas very well. You are right about the Austrians and Germans. Its just great to see the international flavour coming to light in this series. Also I agree with your rankings of the categories.

[Disco]

Gentlemen,

Very interesting topic, been out of the game for a couple of years now and very seldom check the forums, but this topic has my attention. As to a university of choice for an under-graduate engineering degree: my choice would be a struggling first year team with little to no money.

Poeple have to remember this is an educational competition and the point is to get experience to eventually get employment. That's why industry sponsor, its a (somewhat) training and recruiting ground.

I can bet you, you'll learn more compared to joining the likes of the well established teams with big budgets and plenty of team members.

When Big Bird and I travelled to FS 2004, we flew the cheapest flights we could, lived on little sleep for 18 months straight and ended up a combined $30K+ in debt. But I can tell you we learned an incredible amount in that time. I'll ask you how many of you knew of RMIT before FS 2004??

Its not good enough to just be an excellent engineer in industry now. As corporate structures become leaner and the competition for careers increases, you need time, financial management, people skills etc to elevate yourself and get the job.

So my advice, pick the uni where your going to learn the most!

Cheers
Steve

[nick roberts]

Im light of someone with an actual name which I have met and talked to replying I will try to reword anything which was found negative the way I should have in the first place. The question I am attempting to answer for people is why an american team would want to travel to another competition. This explanation does NOT include my team which is already planning on attending FS next summer; partly because in MY opinion it looked less competitive DYNAMICALLy then either east or west this year. We will definitely get beat up statically but the points are still weighted in our favor. Also it would be a hell of a trip so why not go if you can get the money?

I could see any teams which are on the verge of traveling making excuses not to since dominant teams already travel to them each year; why go to Aust or FS and get beat by the same teams beating you at home? The AUst and FS comp don't get as many visitors, keeping the thrill of competing against new and interesting teams alive by traveling. If you all stop coming here then maybe some of the bigger teams will travel again, I believe that's the way it was when Gtech was attending FS and Aust. This whole conundrum is probably a good contributor as to why 95% of american teams are tube frame cookie cutter cars(not us by the way) and every other comp has a good blend of carbon chassis and tube frame. I think its boring like the rest of you, but with a single cylinder engine winning both east and west this year ill bet you'll see a little more diversity next year.

I think that explains what I have been trying to say as well as puts into perspective my stance on the situation. I was unaware how delicate this topic would get and apparently I didn't choose my words correctly. I'm sure somone else will have something to say but I hope we are atleast moving in the right direction.

nick
University of Kansas

[Handy Andy]

First off, my apologies to everyone. My comment was not meant to be a display of the typical american cockiness, but rather it was ment to show why there are multiple competitons. Obviously more teams have the oppurtunity to compete if there are more competitions. If there was only 1 super competition held in europe ( or the U.S., or Australia), not every team who could normally comepete would be able to make it. This is why I said that it makes sense for American teams to go to american competitons. Just like Australian teams go to Australian competitons. Hats off to all the teams that can make the time and money commitment to go to other regions to compete, but I feel that this should not be a requirment.

I understand that the main goal of this competition is to learn, and I truely respect that, but if a japanese team, or a mexican team goes to detroit where no one understand there sales presentation, wether it be a language barrier or a cultural barrier, then what did they learn? I mean no disrespect by saying that. I think its best to stay in my borders, simply because it makes the most sense. We can drive to both comps within our border, all the judges speak our language, were competing against cars of similar ability, and we dont have all the extra financial burden of shipping and flying etc.

So in conclusion, isnt the main reason for all the different competitons purely a logistical one? Arent the FSAE and FS organizers simply trying to make it easier for all teams to compete?

[Kevin Hayward]

Thought I'd throw my support in with Geoff. Every competition UWA has been to is a big logisitics excercise. For the Australian competitions the team has to travel from one side of Australia to another, and having competed in 4 Australian comps I can certainly empathise with the West Teams travelling to the east.

However it is no where near in the same league of difficulty as going overseas to Detroit. Because Detroit is the biggest competition, and run to an extremely fine timeline, I believe it is probably the hardest competition to travel to. I have been there three times, competing twice, and I can only say it is not an event I really want to compete in again. It is just flat out too hard to bother with too many times. You go halfway around the world to a country that doesn't speak english http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and are on the backfoot from day 1. The Detroit competition is very well run and the level of judging is incredible. But the competition is not really fun.

I have always strongly supported the idea of some sort of world competition as neither of the US events give a clear indication of which teams are really the best in the world. Apart from maybe giving an honest idea of how damn good the travelling teams of RMIT, Woolongong, and Leeds (earlier) were. I support the idea of the best teams from each comp getting together, because I think it would be a great challenge, and provide an event that is world-class motorsport and could be promoted as such to improve the marketing of the various competitions and the engineers involved.


What I want is a competion where cars of very different design philosophies fight tooth and nail right until the last day, with no clear idea of who is going to win. We had that in Australia 2004 with a monocoque single rollerskate, a turbo-charged short wheelbase spaceframe with a beaten up nose, and a monocoque canary with fancy dampers were only separated by 16 points by the end of the day with the result order of the three reversed from the previous day.

Not too mention in the same competition a winged car with a gear drive and DeDoin rear end won design, the Kiwis showed up with one of the best first year car ever made, XXXX drinkers won acceleration by miles with a solid axle, and a team that always seemed to be low level showed up with a side engined single that had fantastic build quality.

The Australian competition has my vote for best competition, partly because it is hotly contested but still fun and friendly, partly because of my ignorance of anything but the Detroit and Oz comps, but mostly because I am Australian.

In the end mtg has it right on. Once you have made a competition with a car built from scratch most of what you will gain from the competition has already happened. As for what team ... In five years of UWA the team was never the same. It never had the same atmosphere (sometimes for the best), and you always seemed to miss as many people as you found new stars. I'd say pick your local team/uni and do your best to make them the best, this is not the world series, or the English Premier League.

Oh yeah, and try to help your team to travel semi-regularly (maybe once every two years). It is a challenge and having done it a couple of times it tests skills you never knew you needed as an engineer.

Sorry for the rant / babbling.

Kev

[someguy]

thanx you guys.
this has been a great topic with many great ideas.
My name is Will and Im based in Southern California.
I do very much agree that traveling to out of country comps is extremely beneficial. The college I plan on attending hasn't left the U.S. yet, though im sure it isn't for lack of desire.

I'm just trying to keep my eyes open and learn from everyone i can.

hope to see you guys soon.
will

[Beatle]

There seems to be some anti-American sentiment here, and all I can say is grow up. The reason most American teams don't go to other comps is because the biggest and most prominent comp is in the U.S.! Are there teams that dont come to Michigan that are good teams, yeah for sure, but you should be able to recognize that certain American teams (Cornell, Texas A&M, Michigan, Penn State, UTA, and so on) could easily compete against any of the current teams out there and be extremely competive. Please refrain from making any comments like these, there fairly ignorant and you are only misrepresenting your team.

[Kevin Hayward]

Beatle,

Your post is way off the mark. It IS a shame that US teams do not travel, and the DO miss a lot by not venturing out of their shores. I have been working over here in the US for a year now, in motorsport, and the potential funding that the US teams have access to is amazing. There seems to be quite a few places in the US where money flows like water.

I do not think any of the posters are criticising the quality of the top US teams. But look at the numbers of European, Canadian and Australian teams that make the effort to go to multiple comps outside of their countries, let alone the percentage of teams. Then look at the number of US teams travelling, and what percentage that makes up.

It is not anit-American sentiment, rather it is a statement of an obvious fact that US teams are not travelling, and as such are not contributing to making these competitions truly global.

Two questions should be asked:

1. When was the last time a US team won a competition outside of their country?

2. When was the last time a non-US team won a competition in the US?

I hope your team raises the money, and travels internationally and becomes the next US team to win outside their borders ... it would be good to see the US teams travelling again.

Kev

[Kyle Walther]

2004---UTA FSAE japan

[darienphoenix]

I was planning to weigh-in on the discussion, but Answerforsomeguy, Geoff and Kevin have already posted every argument I was going to use. In any case, you guys are spot on.

The 'why should I bother travelling, everyone can just come to me' attitude is unfortunately typical of American culture - you don't hear all those "Americans can't use passports" jokes because they're fun to deliver. If a few more of the US teams tried travelling overseas and being competitive outside their own country, they might understand how incredibly useful it is as a learning experience.

Not only that, but as Geoff correctly pointed out - it's a costly exercise to travel halfway around the world in order to compete against the same Aussie teams you do at home and 150 other CBR spaceframes. In the future the non-US teams might just not bother, especially if they're treated to the same sort of arrogant bull**** we've seen in this topic.

Oh, and Kevin - that was the University of Adelaide car that won design in 2004 with the gear drive. I'm part of the team trying to keep the 2005 car running - not easy when centre gears cost a grand and the drive likes shredding them every 20km.

[Kimmo Hirvonen]

Now that our team, Helsinki Polytechnic, has taken part to 3 different "major" competitions this year, I thought I could tell my opinions about what's best in where.

I think it has been made clear in FSG-topic that recent Formula Student Germany was a total success. From all three competitions it was by far the best this year. But there were good things is FS and FSAE also and I'm about to copy Big Bird's way to comment different events:

Presentation - hard to compare, every country had different things to like
Design - all three very different types, some things FSAE east judges didn't like, FSG judges loved. I would have to say FSG had best judges, just because we wonhttp://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Cost - again all three different, in FSAE east it was quite normal, in FS we were a bit lost with "we are investors, why should we invest to your car from cost point of view"-question and in FSG it was all about trying to convince judges that our parts are that priced what it says in cost report
Autocross - in FSAE east and FSG with cones, in FS with cones but on go-kart track. It's always most enjoyable to drive and watch car on real track so that's why I like FS the best but FSG's cone layout was also good
Endurance - same than above but FS drops down with added cone part which has just too tight corners
Skid Pad – FS (weather was so and so but track is flat and same grip in every part)
Acceleration – I would have to say that best was FSG just because of our 3,84
Track surface - Best surface is go-kart track in FS, it's clean and flat. This was probably the worst part of FSG, it was just too bumpy. We had to drive 1cm higher than anywhere else and still our underbody hat couple of times every lap.
Cars – Europe is getting better and better but best were in FSAE east, but for how long!?
Facilities – FSAE east had good and bad parts, when you don't count the "pits" everything's fine, but pits are just not right. This year most of the people were on the gravel and every year everybody has to bring their own tent/shelter/what ever. With this arrangement everybody are scattered around and most of the cars are hard to find if you don't remember in which corner they were. FS improved a lot from last year. Three-branched pit tent with center info tent was just great. But in FSG, Hockenheim, what can you say.. Pits are the same where F1-mechanics wonder is Alonso's or Räikkönen's girl better looking, camp site where almost every team was present just within few minutes walk and enough big after party place right above pits. Just perfect.
Organization – good everywhere but in FSG it was just that what you would think germans are, precise but with sense of humour
Weather – Not good anywhere.. Only place where it really affected the competition, was FSG.
After-party – FSG, definetly! Come to think about it, any other competition didn't have a party at all.

Comparing all these three competitions leads to a bit of off-topic question, but these competitions really are DIFFERENT competitions. For our team this was a some sort of a problem this year.
In FSAE we didn't get to design semi-finals which was a big disappointment for us. In FS it went OK but in FSG the same car won with same presenters.
Presentation is hard to compare in all three cause we had different presenters in FSAE, but in FS we were second with quite good points and we thought we have a winner presentation in FSG since FS winner wasn't present, but no. FSG presentation went even better than in FS but we were 19th.
In cost event we got 79 in FS, 68 in FSG and 83 in FSAE even though the report and presenters were same.
What I'm trying to say is that in all three competition judges like different things and also judge in different ways. OK, of course we learned what german presentation judges like so we know it next year(hopefully) but if you would like to be winner in all these competitions, you should make three different cars, cost reports and presentations. And that's just too much..
I'm not sure how this issue could be solved(or is there even anything to be solved)? Three days FSAE/FStudent-judge course or some sort of "How to recognize a winner design"-book for homework for every design judge. Don't know.. Or is this actually a good thing that judges really are different. As this being a learning experience this way you concretelly understand that there are different types of cultures and persons even though they all like the sound of roaring V8.
Before I get too philosophic and before this gets so long so that everybody just skips it, I end this here.

[Kevin Hayward]

Darien,

Knew it was Adelaide, I wasn't mentioning names of the teams in the post ... but I certainly remember getting beaten that year in design. I heard of some of the problems with short life in the gear drive, but the team did a lot with that car. Such a massive change from the years before. Further evidence of some teams willingness to try to redefine what these cars should be.

Kev

[darienphoenix]

Originally posted by Kevin Hayward:
Darien,

Knew it was Adelaide, I wasn't mentioning names of the teams in the post ... but I certainly remember getting beaten that year in design. I heard of some of the problems with short life in the gear drive, but the team did a lot with that car. Such a massive change from the years before. Further evidence of some teams willingness to try to redefine what these cars should be.

Kev

Only dead fish swim with the stream. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[markocosic]

And my personal prediction – the next big event is FS Germany. The Germans and Austrians (note – AUSTRIA, not Australia) are picking this game up quicker than anyone else I've seen, and have built some fantastic cars right from day one. And the event itself looks like it is going to be a beauty. If I were to recommend a must do event, that would be it.

Top teams will travel to the competition with the best organisation, promotion and entertainment. Top sponsors, recruiters and judges will only follow...

One thing that's not been mentioned much is PROMOTION. I stayed in Europe to visit friends and when completely lost in the middle of nowhere at an ice-cream shop I was asked by the kid behind the counter why I'd driven and not flown. I explained that I'd been in Hockenheim last weekend and before I could finish the response was somethign along the lines of "Oh yeah, that formula student racing thing. I saw that on Pro Sieben last night - cool! I'd like to do that when I go to university."

Nobody has heard of the event in the UK, and nobody outside of universities and a handful of engineering firms have heard of it in the US. Every second person seems to have heard of it in Germany! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

Steve Daum's comments at the FSG Mahle after-party (regardless of what they tell you, this IS a race) versus Pat Clarke's comments in the FSG Design Review (this is supposed to be fun and about learning, and regardless of what they tell you it's NOT a race) said a lot about the 'feel' of the different events too I think.

[Answerforsomeguy]

Beatle , talk about being fairly ignorant. Quoting yourself "How important do you guys think you are?"�
"Cornell, Texas A&M, Michigan, Penn State, UTA, and so on) could easily compete against any of the current teams out there and be extremely competive"� except they don't compete on an equal playing field with the rest of the top current teams so you can't say they are the best or even on par anymore.

Kimmo – Thank you for weighing in. From what I've heard FSG sounds impressive I wish I could have been there.
The presentations don't have to be drastically different from competition to competition but yes modifications have to be made. That's a part of showing how good your team is. Being able to adapt and excel in all scenarios. Presentations (cost, marketing, design) should evolve as the design of your car does. In Industry using the same presentation all the time will get you nowhere. You have to research your audience and make changes accordingly. This though usually comes only from experience so your first time will suffer.
Kimmo you must also admit that this variety will help you at all competitions. Something a judge pointed out in FSG can be used for FSAE next year and net you that many more points.

And as for CBR, tube frame cookie-cutters. This would not be a problem if the cookie-cutters were done well. A tube frame, stock CBR with a very well designed suspension could easily be top 5 dynamically at any comp. The cookie-cutter design also is not an excuse for a team performing poorly statically. The design judges also need to open their eyes and not be blinded by "flashy"� materials or revolutionary drivetrains. A great design on paper that works poorly on track is just a piece of scrap and a lesson on what not to do. How many teams make design semi-finals in FSAE and have a poor car on track, and do this consistently year to year.

[someguy]

"tube frame cookie cutters with CBR engine"
where is the heart of the competition?

is it use of carbon fiber?
exotic design?
engine config?
or dynamics?
not every college has access to pre-preg, unobtanium, or a huge budget. but it seems to me like the complete package is what wins.

i've drooled over all the pics from events and seen spectacular cars but thesse aren't the ones htat have one. ( well not all)

i could be wrong and point out if i am.

[repeatoffender]

Originally posted by Beatle:
There seems to be some anti-American sentiment here, and all I can say is grow up. The reason most American teams don't go to other comps is because the biggest and most prominent comp is in the U.S.! Are there teams that dont come to Michigan that are good teams, yeah for sure, but you should be able to recognize that certain American teams (Cornell, Texas A&M, Michigan, Penn State, UTA, and so on) could easily compete against any of the current teams out there and be extremely competive. Please refrain from making any comments like these, there fairly ignorant and you are only misrepresenting your team.

Beatle,

So what if there is some anti-american centiment? Take it like a man.

For once i might agree with answersforsomeguy

Just because of a teams illustrious history does not automatically secure them a good result. Team members come and go and unless the knowledge is successfully passed on and the new members have sufficent drive to become successful you wont find they will be competitive. In any case it may actually be harder for that team, given the pressure applied by their name.

It doesnt help when the team trys too much for technology or changes either. Redesigning the wheel between comps can lead to missed deadlines which can hurt pre comp preparation.

Like what Geoff has said previously, each competition has its attractions and draw backs and its really an individual team to decide where they want to go.

[darienphoenix]

where is the heart of the competition?

The comment 'tube frame cookie cutters with CBR engine' wasn't implying that you need a monocoque (I hate the things, personally, but haven't had a whole lot of experience with them).

It was a comment on the state of originality (or lack therof) percieved in many of the FSAE-East entrants, or at least that's the way I took it.

Having a spaceframe and a CBR engine is fine. It's not fine if you just used the same design off of someone else without coming up with your own concepts and ideas.

The aim of the competition is to innovate. Innovation isn't necessarily a complex solution. Most times, it's a simple solution to a complex problem.

[BStoney]

where is the heart of the competition?

As Darien said above...innovation is key to this competition. Is that not what a lot of engineering is about? But doing something that works for your individual team is what really matters because that is the only way to be successful in your own right. In general, as I would agree with Darien, the K.I.S.S. philosophy should be employed with just about every engineering design on these cars. The more "over-engineered" a design, the more problems that are inevitable to occur. I am not saying you shouldn't do a full blown monocoque, full carbon aero, turbo, etc etc etc, as these can be complex, great engineering designs, while at the same time applying the Keep It Simple Stupid philosophy at a given level. Isn't the quickest and dirtiest way from point A to point B a straight line?

In addition, the team building and comraderie that you build from participating in ANY of the SAE compeititons cannot have pricetags attached. Sure, there maybe better quality or more advanced engineering designs out there (which doesn't mean your design is bad/wrong/etc), but the essence of the competition is to compete as a team and work towards a goal of doing as best as possible in the competition. If you understand your design and all of the engineering that went on "behind the scenes" to create it, you will be successful, which has been proven to me time and time again over the past 4 years. Obviously, there is only one overall winner, but you can define "win" for your ownself and team.

My .05

[bornlazy]

I think what Beatle was saying was that calling out American teams for not travelling is a little silly. Regardless of what people may think, money doesn't flow like water in america, and most teams are just as broke if not more so than any other team, and therefore cant afford to travel (I hope you came to this conclusion on your own). Instead they focus their finances towards one big competition each year. Trust me, most people wouldnt have a problem with visiting Australia, Germany, or Brazil for a few weeks.

[Answerforsomeguy]

bornlazy: It was already stated money wasn't the issue. Obtaining a donation is easier in the US as opposed to Canada, England and Australia due to
1) Tax laws and tax deductible amounts from donations
2) The number of corporate sponsorship dollars available

As previously mentioned. If money was the issue how could 7 Canadian teams travel to Formula Student in 2005. Helsinki travels every year. The Australian teams come to North America.

Complaining of a money issues tells me your team is either relatively new or completely incompetent in fundraising. There is no reason why a well-established team who has an actual product and brand to show should not be able to get the sponsorship needed. You are running a small scale race team. Designing, building and racing is just half the challenge. The other half is obtaining and maintaining resources and sponsorship. Some teams have large budgets because of their university, others have large budgets because of their team members. If there is something your team wants there should be no reason why you can't get it (if established, a new team faces the first challenge of gaining acceptance from their university and growing from there). There was already a thread about team budgets, but a team's budget is a more closely guarded secret then a team's design.

Now people will come and say "My team has only a $20,000 budget or $15,000" The large teams won't say at all. Some established teams will say they only get $20,000-$30,000. But this is only cash and does not include all service and product donations. I can say the team I worked closely with did over $150,000 a year in business (This is giving a cash amount to all donations). Any team with Motec clearly runs over the $100,000 mark and so do the full carbon teams. I don't think any well-established team will ever honestly say what their true budget and donated amounts are. I have only heard one team ever admit to any amount over $60,000. Also I think if any of the teams that travel ever tell others their budget people will not understand. Few grasp the concept that travelling across the Atlantic or Pacific can easily cost a minimum of $20000 once all expenses are in.

[bornlazy]

Answeyforsomeguy, Im not sure you actually made a point. You claim that money isnt an issue for teams in the U.S., but then you go on to say that traveling abroad can cost $20,000 dollars, which is true. If anyone's team has an extra $20,000 dollars to put aside please post. MONEY IS AN ISSUE. As for teams like Helsinki, RMIT and UWA, they obviously have the money at their disposal and that is great, I hope they keep getting that money because I love competing with them. Most teams are not in that situation and it is niave to think so. Yes there is money available in the U.S., but there are also many more teams in the U.S.

[Ben C-M]

bornlazy, every team that travels overseas has 'an extra $20,000 dollars to put aside'. Each one of them somehow can manage to fund their overseas trips and still put together their cars. Answerforsomeguys point was that it is probably easier for a team to get funding in the US to go overseas then it is other countries.

I know firsthand that going overseas has helped my team obtain funding. Most sponsors look at the event far more seriously if there is an overseas aspect to it and I doubt that many teams wouldn't be able to find the funding if they made it a priority.

As for focusing all your funds into one big competition every year, given the failure rates in endurance, I'd value the opportunity to go to more then one competition so that all the work that went into the car isn't wasted on a stupid oil overflow or the failure of some minor component or fastener. Giving your car mulitple oportunities to compete can let the car shine even with a bit of bad luck and you'll also learn alot more.

[repeatoffender]

Originally posted by bornlazy:
Answeyforsomeguy, Im not sure you actually made a point. You claim that money isnt an issue for teams in the U.S., but then you go on to say that traveling abroad can cost $20,000 dollars, which is true. If anyone's team has an extra $20,000 dollars to put aside please post. MONEY IS AN ISSUE. As for teams like Helsinki, RMIT and UWA, they obviously have the money at their disposal and that is great, I hope they keep getting that money because I love competing with them. Most teams are not in that situation and it is niave to think so. Yes there is money available in the U.S., but there are also many more teams in the U.S.

bornlazy,

the reason why they 'obviously' have all this money put aside is because they work their cunts off to get it.

teams can settle with enough, or go that extra step to be able to compete in different competitions.

if you have a look at their sponsors list, which are even detailed in the event booklets let alone website, you can easily see the vast amount of companies that provide either inkind or monetary sponsorship to support these teams.

thats definately not to say it all came easy. we all know the lengths we have to go to get sponsorship and these teams 'obviously' rank it fairly high up in their prioritised list!

so before you start complaining about how hard it is for american teams, take a look in your own backyard at the motorsport history and associated wealth of available resources.

im not generalising this abroad all american teams because there are some which travel, and have been very successful.

[VinceL]

I've only just discovered this thread recently, so I'm a little late with delivering my two cents. Coming from a team that has competed internationally, I would say it's something a true FSAE fanatic should try at least once. It is a very rewarding experience. Not to mention I think it is a shame to spend a whole year building and developing a car to only compete with it once.

As for comments made earlier with regards to the level of competition at the European events. I think Mike T.'s and nick robert's comments about the level of dynamic competition at FS are completely false. Proof of this can be found in our (Toronto's) endurance scores from the two events. We actually scored better in Detroit than in England, a 344 compared to a 339. The European cars definitely aren't slow, and they are only getting faster. I think in a couple of years the Germans and the Austrians are going to do to FSAE what the Australians started doing three years ago, that is give the North American teams a wake up call.

I'm not saying any one competition is better than the other. What I am saying is if you ever get the chance to go to an overseas event, take it. And if your team doesn't have enough money, then go out and find it. There is no reason why a team with about 10 members can't pool together the resources to travel to another country while still building a competitive car.

Well there's my two cents. That is two Canadian cents, which only comes out to about 1.78 cents American.

[Big Bird]

I've been trying to get a few minutes together to respond to this thread, given that there have been a few posts added since my earlier one. Upon later reading of my post it came across a lot crankier than intended, so sorry ˜bout that folks. Sometimes an intention to be forthright can come across as inflammatory. That's the danger of the written word I guess.

My opinion stemmed from how some of the earlier posts could have been interpreted – with background being a slightly shortened fuse given some of the less-than-sportsmanlike comments that were unfortunately thrown our way during the California event. Whilst 99% were exceedingly friendly and welcoming during our trip to the US, there were a vocal and rather arrogant few that felt the need to deride us. Some people can only deal with their own lack of results by believing those that finished ahead of them are somehow privileged. Personally I heard quite a few "those cashed up RMIT wankers"� - type jibes around the sheds. Given all the time and money that we had spent to get there, it didn't go down too well.

I will state here and now that we had no troubles with any of the teams represented by contributors to this thread. (Well as far as I can tell – seems this thread has been hijacked by a whole army who want to hide behind aliases, and I usually try to ignore such posts). Apologies to Nick and Andy if I caused any offence with my brashness, we found both of your teams to be exceedingly friendly and sportsmanlike. I was hoping any misunderstanding was just a mis-communication across cultures.

There seems to be some belief that RMIT is a big-money team. We are not. Any perception along those lines is purely due to stupid amounts of work by dedicated team members over many years. What's more, as Disco has stated above, our presence at international events has been funded to a large extent out of our own pockets. As an example, the team scored maybe $20,000 support for the US events this year, and total cost would have been closer to $50-60,000 by the time we counted airfares, accommodation, hire cars and stuff. We came up with the shortfall. That is a lot of nights scrubbing pots for each of us.

Granted, we have a carbon fibre tub. Our uni has an aerospace school, and as such we can get access to out-of-date carbon fibre through ties with industry. It is actually easier for us to build with composites than with steel, given our lack of welding and jigging facilities compared to some. Aside from that, there is nothing technically "special"� about our car aside from painstaking detail and packaging. If we didn't have the aerospace link we wouldn't do carbon – but I doubt that affect our competitiveness a great deal. The carbon accounts for maybe 15-20kg of weight saving at most – the other 40-50kg below FSAE "standard"� comes from conscious design decisions and trade-offs.

I would never argue that the top US teams are not competitive. That was not my point. My point was that there seemed to be an unstated belief that we would keep travelling as the US event is the most important in the world. In some ways it is – I'd return purely to try and win the Design Event, as that is the most challenging one I have seen. But in terms of technical interest, innovation, facilities and employment opportunities, there are now other events that rate as high if not higher. It just gets a little grating to hear someone state that their own competition is the most important when very little they have to say indicates knowledge of any other than their own.

When top teams say that they won't bother travelling because it interferes with the summer break and anyway the good guys come to us – well it all seems a bit complacent. The first metaphor that is coming to my mind is the British motorcycle industry in the 50's and 60's. From the comfort of their own industry dominance they wrote off the Japanese for years - and by the time they realized the threat to their industry dominance it was too late. Given that competitors in FSAE will be driving the auto industry in future years I could also draw parallels to the American motor industry as well – it seems that I hear more of mass redundancies in the US companies than I do of European and Asian companies. I'm not trying to be inflammatory here, I am trying to be constructive through my own experience. I have spent time working both in American and Japanese multi-nationals and there was very real concern within the American company that their business practices were becoming stale and complacent against some of their more adaptable competitors. (Isn't Toyota the number 1 auto company these days? Speaking of which, if you are interested in different business philosophies, try looking up the Toyota / Aisin Crisis as an example of the adaptability of the Japanese business model). We are moving into a global economy, and we all have to become more aware and flexible to cope with it.

In response to the cookie-cutter topic, I don't necessarily believe that a tube frame 600 is in any way inferior to other designs. One of my favourite cars each year is the UQueensland car, being that it is always so simple and effective. And more than once I've used Cornell as an example of how to do this event properly – with particular reference to their systems approach and top-down design development. What bores me is the number of teams who just look at last year's winner and try to copy it. That is what I call cookie cutter design. We were placed right next to the track entry at FSAE East, so we saw every car as it was walked to the track. We couldn't believe the number of Cornell and UoW clones that passed by us. At first we wondered why Cornell was spending so much time walking their car around the pits – until we realized we had seen "Cornell"� go out onto the track about 5 times and only come back twice. Later we learned to distinguish between the different Cornells by the different team shirts.

Now after the two US events the first thing that occurred was enquiries as to how we all get WR450 engines. I am sincerely hoping that this is a case of renewed exploration of a wide variety of options, rather than just knee-jerk reactionism to a new supposed "magic ingredient"�. There is nothing special in the bits, it is the integration of the physical design into your own team's capabilities that is the key.

I'm getting philosophical and my fingers are down to stumps. Sorry for the rant. Nick, I wish you guys all the best in your future venture to Formula Student, you will have a great time over there and I reckon your car will be well appreciated. And the track is a hoot. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers all.

[Alan]

Originally posted by Big Bird:
We were placed right next to the track entry at FSAE East, so we saw every car as it was walked to the track. We couldn't believe the number of Cornell and UoW clones that passed by us.

I bet next year there are going to be more 450s and/or more cars without the traditional rear suspension box.

[Frank "Ruska"]

Anybody remember what was Formula SAE 10 years ago? A great competition between US and Canadian Teams, before Leeds University participate at the FSAE Event. And what´s happened since that, we have now over 250 teams, 7 competitions around the world and I have no idea how many students are involved in this competitions.

Formula SAE was getting global in the last 10 years, like the whole business world. And the business is getting faster each year, not only in industry, also in FSAE. It is a great opportunity for each student to attend different competitions on different continents.

As engineer your market isn't a closed one, just for US companies or German ones, it is a global market. Your competitors are coming from all over the world. Japanese car manufactures catch up ideas from German ones, and Germans copy the production philosophy of Japanese companies and so on. You have to go around and looking for the others, understand what they have done and why the have done that.

If you just wait in your Backyard and looking what's happen when a new competitor shows up, it could be too late. I'm not saying that you must go to another competition to build a great car but it could help, not only for your task as engineer. You will make experiences you never forget, get to know people who are great, making new friends it just will broaden your horizon. And if you think that is not a good reason to go to another competition, just open a beer in your backyard and stay home. And this applies for all teams around the world!

The other guys just try to get the money and go to another competition. I was 2 times in Australia and once in US, forget what placing we had in 2002 in Melbourne, but I will not forget the people there, the parties and Australia!


So Geoff, you was in UK, in US and now it is time to come to Germany next year!

Frank Roeske

Student Racing Team 99-03
Formula Student Germany 04-??

[Michael Royce]

As a Brit who emigrated to the USA with a young family early in my career, who spent the major part of that career working on international projects for an OEM, with British, French and German partners, and who spent 2 1/2 years living and working in Italy, I fully support what Goeff and Frank have said.

My wife and I actively encourage teams to find the time and funds to participate in the international FSAE competitions. Like FSAE itself, the learning experience of traveling and competing abroad cannot be obtained in the classroom. The benefit of experiencing different cultures, getting to understand different ways of doing things, and making friends and contacts that will remain for the rest of one's life cannot be underestimated.

We have heard that many of the US students rely upon summer jobs to earn money to pay for their education, and hence cannot give up the time to travel to Formula Student or Formula Student Germany, and for the Aussie and Kiwi teams making the trek to the US or Europe, in addition to the financial cost, there is an additional strain. Typically they use "last year's car"� for the trip while still having to build this year's car. The same applies to US, Canadian and European teams going "down under"�. However, we encourage all teams to try and make the stretch for at least one overseas trip. It will be a "once in a lifetime"� opportunity.

We have been fortunate to travel to most of the international competitions, and will again be in Balocco in 3 weeks time. We will see a number of the teams there, including one from the USA who are making the stretch.

Michael Royce,
DaimlerChrysler, retired.

[Answerforsomeguy]

bornlazy: Obviously I made a point because some people did understand it.

"Most teams are not in the situation of Helsinki, RMIT and UWA"�. So what you are trying to say is that America's top teams are either too lazy or incompetent to make an effort to compete worldwide. Because grouping the above three teams in with Oxford Brookes and Toronto tells me that a country's top teams can go out get the necessary funding, make the required sacrifices and showcase their car to the world

Or do you mean that the top American teams that have existed for nearly a decade longer then all these other internationals and have yet to develop the resource base necessary to do what these other teams do are somehow not in the same situation. I would agree. The Americans teams are in a situation 10 times better.

And to say that you can't get money because of the number of teams is another poor argument. Unfortunately I don't have the time to show ratio of GDP versus # of FSAE teams per country

In terms of $Million
1 United States 12,485,725
2 Japan 4,571,314
3 Germany 2,797,343
4 People's Republic of China 2,224,811
5 United Kingdom 2,201,473
6 France 2,105,864
7 Italy 1,766,160
8 Canada 1,130,208
15 Australia 707,992
32 Finland 193,491

But I leave you with the following numbers to crunch. Other then the UK you would need to have 10 times the number of teams in any other country. The only one where you probably do have 10 times the number of teams is Finland.

You should read the Business section of your newspaper a little more often bornlazy but as your name implies I guess that's not unexpected.

Can anyone come up with a half-decent excuse for the American teams as to why they don't travel.
What has been used already
1) Money
2) Competitiveness of the other comps
3) The need of summer jobs (Because obviously students in Australia, Canada, Finland and the UK don't need jobs)
4) Everyone else already comes to the US

And each one of these arguments have been countered.
Is there one good argument that can't be easily countered by a little economic knowledge or statistics or common sense. Why are the most thoughtful arguments coming from non-Americans and are then countered with "Because"� or "ALL CAPS"� or "We're better"� as if those are well laid out counter-points. I know the majority of people on this forum are engineers but stating "MONEY IS AN ISSUE"� as the main point to our argument is kind of immature and shows lack of thought.

[formula_wally]

Hahah, answerforsomeguy; I hope your not secretly on my team. If you are, and I find out, you'll have to do the de-ionized water initiation agian, ummmmkay?

I think Geoff and Frank have made some of the best points here. We would love to be able to come to Formula Auzzi, and I think we could easily raise the funds to go, yet December is a heavy month for our build schedule.

A lot of the guys on our team are putting in 40-50 hours a week ontop of co-op jobs, and 4th year courses. We are working really hard, and plan to run East as our main event. Another event would be fantastic, and if our guys all weren't leaving to get a grown up job, an international event could fit in the years schedule.

I don't think we have the right to judge an american team for only running East/West, just as we shouldn't look down on a UK team only running the Student events. Im stoked for some of the more mobile teams which attend a bunch of events, and really make there name stand out above the rest. That commitment to using their own funds to travel the world with there team is what really should be seen as noble.

The teams that really work hard on the car owe it to themselves to run at least 2 events.

[Kyle Walther]

answerforsomeguy-
you make it sound like there is an infinite amount of money available. the problem is we have to compete for that money that companies put aside for charity.

In Oklahoma American college football is king. We get a list at the beginning of the year with local businesses and corporations that we cannot contact and if we do the school will pull our funding and our residence. Then after we get that list we get another list that the college of engineering sends us of people that they are trying to hit up for money and we cannot contact them either. So after all that we land very few huge sponsorships and are lucky to attend two events in the states as well as travel to 4 other regional events. I Attended Formula student this year as a spectator and would love to bring the car, but 20,000 more is possible but would take a lot more work than an 8 man team can afford.

[markocosic]

Originally posted by itmstgofast:
answerforsomeguy-
you make it sound like there is an infinite amount of money available. the problem is we have to compete for that money that companies put aside for charity.

Yes, the individuals putting in the hours behind the scenes are doing it for nothing, but in the main FSAE and FS aren't charitable events...

The programme can easily pull money from the promo/marketing pot or the recruitment/graduate training pot, not just the charitable/goodwill pot. Don't sell yourself as beggars, sell yourselves as something useful?

BUT: Non-money is even better - we've just blagged half a workshop full of tools for the christmas period by offering to look after them whilst the hire-shop is closed for the holidays. Cost to shop - absolutely minimal; value to a team with no tools - phenomenal. Cost:Value ratios of more than 1 are good... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Kyle Walther]

Originally posted by markocosic:

Yes, the individuals putting in the hours behind the scenes are doing it for nothing, but in the main FSAE and FS aren't charitable events...



what i ment by that was, we are considered a non-profit organization which puts us in the same relm as charity organizations. to some companies this is the only money they put aside for smaller organizations.

[Ben C-M]

itmstgofast - you're acting as if the american teams are the only ones that have this difficulty. I'm pretty sure every team is in the exact same boat, and i'm sure that the most wealthy teams are the ones that spend the most time searching for sponsorship. None of the richest teams had their sponsorships simply fall into their laps and i'll bet they all spend alot of time maintaining and searching for new sponsors. Given that the event is essentially a buisness, searching for sponsorships should be one of the primary goals for a team and most teams allocate next to nothing (in terms of resources and people) to getting money.

The teams that compete in an overseas competition make alot of sacrifices to scrape together the money to fund it. For example, I'm pretty sure RMIT would have had an even better car if they'd decided to spend the tens of thousands of dollars needed to compete in the US on their car. I dont' want to speak for them but I'd be surprised if any of the RMIT team members felt they made a bad decision. The same goes for any team that competes overseas, which is why they keep coming back and competing in a number of competitions year after year.

I think it's sad that the top american teams don't compete outside the US, but only because i think it's unfortunate that they are missing out on the biggest rewards that the FSAE program has to offer. Every one of us has spent countless hours slaving over designs, fabrication and testing of our cars and the biggest reward is seeing your car compete against other teams, learning from other schools designs and hopefully getting people looking at what you've done and taking something good away from your ideas and implementations. The more opportunities you have to do that the better, personally and for the team.

I think that very soon we'll see that the only teams considered "top teams" are the ones that have competed in multiple competitions - purely because those teams are the ones that are going to be ahead of the curve and will have proven themselves against more then just their own backyard.

[RacingManiac]

I'll throw in the same 2 Canadian cents as the previous UofT poster, about my experiences with the 2 events that we go to.

After participating in 4 FSAE(east) and 2 FS, I can see the sentiments for the US teams about "others come to play in our backyard, so why should we go". But as Geoff said that is not going to be the case forever, and much like the money situation that might be impeding some US teams to make the trek, the same may eventually hit those who are currently doing multiple comp. Heck every year we are stretching our budget to meet the need to spend for the UK comp(winning the free entry helps, as that takes a huge chuck out). All of our members paid for their trip(lucky that most of us were working on industry internship this 2005-2006 season, while maintaining the role on the team to build the car). But as a learning experience, or a life experience, to compete in other competiton on other continents is definitely worthwhile. While the "best" tend to travel, being in different comp do let you see the very different design philosophy of the different competitors. I think though to some US schools that this is not the "goal" for their FSAE program, rather they are there to compete and win, and as such the big field and tight competition of the original FSAE is the only one that fits the bill to justify that goal.

As our friend from Waterloo said though, "The teams that really work hard on the car owe it to themselves to run at least 2 events". I think letting 2 different set of judges(US and UK is probably completely different) can get you broader feedback to think about, and running one of your 2 competition on international stage might make the season more interesting.

My personal comparison between the 2 comp:

Design event in US is more indepth, and probably more abstract at times. The fact that you don't get to talk much about what you did but what questions they bombarded you with in the first round is kinda irritating. UK is more about your car, which I like, and I find to be a lot less pressured, and the much longer presentation time(probably due to the fact that they dont need to do 140 cars in UK) gives you better chance to present your points.

Dynamic event is I think the strongest suit of the East event now. The MPG tarmac is amazing, and if it weren't for the weather I think we had a good chance to be faster. The track at MPG is also faster, which makes for a more interesting specticle(more on that later). UK's go kart track/taxi way/concrete provided interesting setup challenge compare to the smooth US surface, while UK's track organizer's excessive slowing of the course is the biggest downfall of the track. Though from a photographer's perspective being on a track with real backdrop makes for better pictures....

Weather is much the same in UK and May in Michigan. Unpredictable and rain is always looming.

Pit Facilities is another strong suit of UK comp. Barring the tent collapse incident in 2004, the fact that they provided enclosed tent marquees makes it a lot better than the current first-come, first-serve tarmac/gravel/grass with your own tent situation at MPG. Both grounds has curfew limit but the UK one is more flexible than MPG(not that we needed either). Though I like the idea of having various static events in the massive buildings at MPG...

Spectator and how they are presented with a show I think is another strong suit for UK. "Grand stands" are relatively close to the track and there are a lot of spots people can see the car running(other than the fact that they are running too slowly for my liking), and for me taking pics I don't need to be in the dynamic area to get a good shot(though I still did bag a "media pass" to do it during enduro). In US comp if it weren't for the organizers allowing me to go in to the dynamic area during our team's enduro run I would've seen nothing. With the longest lens(I use a 300mm x 1.5 crop = 450mm) I can still only get a tiny car in my frame when I am not in the dynamic area. I can only imagine what the people sitting outside feel about the view. And UK comp has an interesting commentator interviewing drivers and crew, making the event feels more like a specticle.

Organization is the best part about the US comp, though with the moving to MPG for first time somewhat affected that. The schedules are maintained for the most time, and locations for the events are clearly labeled and no confusion(all of those that were at FS2006 will know what I mean), this part, with due respect to UK organizers, is really lacking in UK.

The competitors, US comp has much more to see because, there are much more cars. But FS has always been more interesting in some particular cars. The crazy electronic systems of school like Lulea, the high standard of the composite work of a lot of the European schools, and crazy light Delft, and the phenomenal entries by both TU Graz and TU Munich this year definitely alters my perception of what FSAE car can potentially be like. This is not to say US cars aren't good, but Europeans are taking this game to a very different level....and this is on top of the very competitive teams from Europe like UK's own Oxford Brooke and Finland's Helsinki(best looker on track from my point of view with a camerahttp://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

The experiences from both competition were vastly different as well, Detroit being our first comp every year means there are very little time to enjoy being there, its always rushing and working and presenting. In UK is a lot more relaxed. Just this aspect alone makes it a different competition for us, and probably why some oversea teams always goes back(I am sure Dartmouth guys will agree).

As you can see though, after that long and useless post, that you can't really pick a preference. Of course winning FSAE still has its prestige, but just the competition experience in general there are very little to pick and choose. So why not go to both....

I am very thankful for our business team who work their collective asses off to find the money for us to do this year in and year out. Its nothing short of amazing.

[Kyle Walther]

Ben C-M
I didn't say that every american school has it hard? Answerforsomeguy said he wanted an explanation so i gave him ours.. not everyones ours. i'm sure that every school has certain difficulties they have to overcome. Thats why this program is so rewarding.

[Greg H]

As a member of the team who didn't go to Australia in 2004, but had to work on the 2005 car, I can just say it takes a lot more planning than we had time for given the short notice of out entry. Should you decide to travel overseas, you will probably have to dedicate a second experienced team to modify the old car while the first experienced team designs and begins building the next car. It would have been nice to have some modifications planned ahead of time rather than just making quick fixes. That also leads to a lack of good testing since it's winter just before the Austrailian competition.

Another thing to think about is that all of that money used in travel could be used for something to make the car go faster like better telemetry, testing, and dyno equipment.

The team is going overseas again soon, but I promise the experience gained from our last trip will help them avoid the same mistakes as last time, and make continued trips more frequent. This may mean restructuring of the design and build process, which can be seen as a major obstacle.

And no, these problems do not just apply to American teams, but it seems teams that have always had to come over here already have this figured out since that is what they've always done just to compete.

I think the best way to promote teams going overseas would be to get them more informed of the benefits and help them overcome the common obstacles that every team has in traveling.

[GSpeedR]

Originally posted by Answerforsomeguy:
bornlazy: Obviously I made a point because some people did understand it.

"Most teams are not in the situation of Helsinki, RMIT and UWA"�. So what you are trying to say is that America's top teams are either too lazy or incompetent to make an effort to compete worldwide. Because grouping the above three teams in with Oxford Brookes and Toronto tells me that a country's top teams can go out get the necessary funding, make the required sacrifices and showcase their car to the world

Or do you mean that the top American teams that have existed for nearly a decade longer then all these other internationals and have yet to develop the resource base necessary to do what these other teams do are somehow not in the same situation. I would agree. The Americans teams are in a situation 10 times better.

And to say that you can't get money because of the number of teams is another poor argument. Unfortunately I don't have the time to show ratio of GDP versus # of FSAE teams per country

In terms of $Million
1 United States 12,485,725
2 Japan 4,571,314
3 Germany 2,797,343
4 People's Republic of China 2,224,811
5 United Kingdom 2,201,473
6 France 2,105,864
7 Italy 1,766,160
8 Canada 1,130,208
15 Australia 707,992
32 Finland 193,491

But I leave you with the following numbers to crunch. Other then the UK you would need to have 10 times the number of teams in any other country. The only one where you probably do have 10 times the number of teams is Finland.

You should read the Business section of your newspaper a little more often bornlazy but as your name implies I guess that's not unexpected.

Can anyone come up with a half-decent excuse for the American teams as to why they don't travel.
What has been used already
1) Money
2) Competitiveness of the other comps
3) The need of summer jobs (Because obviously students in Australia, Canada, Finland and the UK don't need jobs)
4) Everyone else already comes to the US

And each one of these arguments have been countered.
Is there one good argument that can't be easily countered by a little economic knowledge or statistics or common sense. Why are the most thoughtful arguments coming from non-Americans and are then countered with "Because"� or "ALL CAPS"� or "We're better"� as if those are well laid out counter-points. I know the majority of people on this forum are engineers but stating "MONEY IS AN ISSUE"� as the main point to our argument is kind of immature and shows lack of thought.

Scheduling. I don't think an American team will ever go to FAustralasia (which is IMO the the competition I would most like to go to), because the competition occurs during the designing/building stage of our cars. FStudent and FJapan are possibilities and you will see more American teams attending them (Hint hint). Only one at a time each year, tough; going to 3 competitions takes more money then a couple of teams budgets put together and you can't be shipping your car back and forth by boat all year or you'll miss all your testing...I suppose you can go to many competitions and suck at all of them. I'm sorry but I don't care how many pots you scrub or how much pot you sell, unless you box yourself up with the car you can't afford to go to 3 or more competitions either financially or time-wise. If you go to 3 or more then I'm going to hide my car in your crate...along with a few lackeys to do suspension setup.

-Respondstosomeguy

[Beatle]

Originally posted by DohertyWins!:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Answerforsomeguy:
bornlazy: Obviously I made a point because some people did understand it.

"Most teams are not in the situation of Helsinki, RMIT and UWA"�. So what you are trying to say is that America's top teams are either too lazy or incompetent to make an effort to compete worldwide. Because grouping the above three teams in with Oxford Brookes and Toronto tells me that a country's top teams can go out get the necessary funding, make the required sacrifices and showcase their car to the world

Or do you mean that the top American teams that have existed for nearly a decade longer then all these other internationals and have yet to develop the resource base necessary to do what these other teams do are somehow not in the same situation. I would agree. The Americans teams are in a situation 10 times better.

And to say that you can't get money because of the number of teams is another poor argument. Unfortunately I don't have the time to show ratio of GDP versus # of FSAE teams per country

In terms of $Million
1 United States 12,485,725
2 Japan 4,571,314
3 Germany 2,797,343
4 People's Republic of China 2,224,811
5 United Kingdom 2,201,473
6 France 2,105,864
7 Italy 1,766,160
8 Canada 1,130,208
15 Australia 707,992
32 Finland 193,491

But I leave you with the following numbers to crunch. Other then the UK you would need to have 10 times the number of teams in any other country. The only one where you probably do have 10 times the number of teams is Finland.

You should read the Business section of your newspaper a little more often bornlazy but as your name implies I guess that's not unexpected.

Can anyone come up with a half-decent excuse for the American teams as to why they don't travel.
What has been used already
1) Money
2) Competitiveness of the other comps
3) The need of summer jobs (Because obviously students in Australia, Canada, Finland and the UK don't need jobs)
4) Everyone else already comes to the US

And each one of these arguments have been countered.
Is there one good argument that can't be easily countered by a little economic knowledge or statistics or common sense. Why are the most thoughtful arguments coming from non-Americans and are then countered with "Because"� or "ALL CAPS"� or "We're better"� as if those are well laid out counter-points. I know the majority of people on this forum are engineers but stating "MONEY IS AN ISSUE"� as the main point to our argument is kind of immature and shows lack of thought.

Scheduling. I don't think an American team will ever go to FAustralasia (which is IMO the the competition I would most like to go to), because the competition occurs during the designing/building stage of our cars. FStudent and FJapan are possibilities and you will see more American teams attending them (Hint hint). Only one at a time each year, tough; going to 3 competitions takes more money then a couple of teams budgets put together and you can't be shipping your car back and forth by boat all year or you'll miss all your testing...I suppose you can go to many competitions and suck at all of them. I'm sorry but I don't care how many pots you scrub or how much pot you sell, unless you box yourself up with the car you can't afford to go to 3 or more competitions either financially or time-wise. If you go to 3 or more then I'm going to hide my car in your crate...along with a few lackeys to do suspension setup.

-Respondstosomeguy </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Answerforsomeguy, did some american wrong you as a child? why dont you get a little more upset about this, that seems like a good idea huh? oh and while your at it make sure you include more excellent arguements such as GDP versus # of FSAE teams, you really made a solid point with that one. If that fails just keep telling us we are lazy and incompetent, people tend to respond well to that.

As a member of an american team who is traveling internationally for the first time this year I can tell you exactly what the obstacles American teams face are (and they are almost certainly that same exact obstacles as everyone else)
1) Money, it cost us just about 25K to ship our car, thats 25k we normally dont have. At the end of FSAE East we are usually about 3-4k in debt. This year we got some new sponsorships and some very large donations so we can afford it at a minimal cost to ourselves.
2) Classes and building/design. We do not have an excessively large team (again probably due to the laziness and/or incompetence) and therefore we cannot ship half our team (there wouldnt be enough people to unload the car), while the other half works on the next car. Obviously classes are a problem because your typically suppose to be on campus, much less the same continent while they are going on.

As for the competivness of other comps. Germany seems to of had a large turnout of excellent teams this year and it seems to be the competition which is evolving at the fastest rate. Does that mean I am not going to go because Im worried about getting beaten... nope. I am confident that my team could be competitive in any event, and even if we didnt, I still went to Germany and raced a car for a few days... there are worse fates.

Big Bird, my comment was not directed at you, merely at a general attitude forming in this thread. I guess since I failed to "take it like a man" its my fault for jumping to conclusions. I have met you in person and I am pleased to say that you represent RMIT well and seem to embrace to idea of FSAE better than most. I hope you didnt take my comment to heart, it wasnt meant to insult anyone.

[Big Bird]

Beatle, no offence taken mate. The value of these forums is in the "contest of ideas", and that is why I keep involved in them. Occasionally I might come across a little confrontational, but sometimes we have to be a bit that way to get to the bottom of someone else's opinion.

From what I know of the FSAE community, most are mature and interested enough to know that we can all learn from each others ideas - even when they don't necessarily agree with our own. (In fact, we often learn more from ideas that are foreign to our own. There was a thread on here about 4WD in FSAE that made me justify in my own mind exactly why I didn't like it, and in the process gave me much deeper knowledge of driver control and what is going on in the front tyre contact patch).

This contest attracts the sharpest minds of each engineering school that competes in it. I'd think it really lame if all we aimed to do was be agreeable on everything. Some peoples' idea of Utopia might be where we all smiled sweetly at each other, held hands and skipped off merrily into the distance. Personally I couldn't think of a duller existence.

I do think it a shame when people won't sign their names to their posts. I do like to know who I am corresponding with - but I'll respect the decision if someone doesn't wish to be known.

So by all means, if anyone thinks I am off target or out of line I have no problem being told so. Go nuts. If we have the chance to meet in future I'll gladly show my appreciation by shaking hands and sharing a beer.

Cheers all,

[Big Bird]

p.s. Michael Royce, thanks for your input, and your ongoing support of the event. And Frank, yes I would dearly love to do the German event (while I am still eligible to do so?!) Eventually though I am going to have to confront the issue of running out of courses to do at uni, and think about getting a real job. Urgh!

[GSpeedR]

I do think it a shame when people won't sign their names to their posts. I do like to know who I am corresponding with - but I'll respect the decision if someone doesn't wish to be known.


Beatle's name is Brian and he's a bigger asshole in person than he is on the forums. I've tried working with the guy on numerous occaisions but he has offended me on every intellectual (and physical) level and I simply won't stand for it any longer.

-Chri$

[Beatle]

Originally posted by DohertyWins!:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I do think it a shame when people won't sign their names to their posts. I do like to know who I am corresponding with - but I'll respect the decision if someone doesn't wish to be known.


Beatle's name is Brian and he's a bigger asshole in person than he is on the forums.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its true, except its Bryan, not Brian... moron

[GSpeedR]

Its true, except its Bryan, not Brian... moron

Whoops! Wrong Beatle.

[Answerforsomeguy]

The GDP figures are used not to show that there is an infinite amount of sponsorship dollars in America but to counter the point that obtaining sponsorship dollars is more difficult as there are more American teams. Based upon the market size available the argument of more teams meaning less dollars as opposed to other countries was quite poor. The GDP figures show that the levels are equivalent for any of the top participating countries. It was a quick and legitimate way to show this, even though Beatle seems to not approve.

Read between the lines a little bit. People need to learn that charts, tables, graphs and numbers have to be analyzed carefully.

DohertyWins!: What you did was in very poor taste. That's uncalled for. A little be of ribbing is fine but a blatant assault like that is not needed.

As for being wronged by an American as a small child. Really, what's the need for that. As a nation you can't take criticism? The arguments have been on point.

Your team is too small, then recruit more members.
Faculty is too controlling or restrictive, then work with them and ask what they require to help you out.
Don't have enough resources, then go out and find them in new places.
It is easier said then done, but it has been done by many teams. Who said this only applied to American teams.

To counter some of the new points
Scheduling: Yes its quite hard for American teams to go to Australia based on cost and timelines. However there are an additional 5 other comps to go to not including East and West. FS and FSG fits well inside any North American design/build/race schedule.

Team Size: What is considered large 15-20, 30-40, over 50. Need more members then recruit. I hear some teams restrict membership to senior year students only. Why? If recruitment is an issue then it is something a team needs to work on like its design.

" Classes and building/design. We do not have an excessively large team (again probably due to the laziness and/or incompetence) and therefore we cannot ship half our team (there wouldnt be enough people to unload the car), while the other half works on the next car. Obviously classes are a problem because your typically suppose to be on campus, much less the same continent while they are going on."�

Beatle you are away from you shop for 1 single week when you go to a competition. You miss one week of classes, one week of building, one week of design. Its not like this time period is a month or more. It's a single week. You need to have more then half your team unload your car? So then you must have 4-7 members in total. Why must the other half stay back to work on the car? Do you do the same when you go to East or West, leave half the team behind to work on the next car.

This thread is pretty much over with. American teams face the same hardships as all the other teams except many American teams which are on the same level as the non-American travelling teams don't go overseas. This is an unfortunate fact.

As for which comp is best. None of them are. All are different and have their own advantages and disadvantages whether it be from a racing or educational standpoint. However it seems to be unanimous that there are advantages for competing in multiple competitions, other then East and West.

[GSpeedR]

Originally posted by Answerforsomeguy:
The GDP figures are used not to show that there is an infinite amount of sponsorship dollars in America but to counter the point that obtaining sponsorship dollars is more difficult as there are more American teams. Based upon the market size available the argument of more teams meaning less dollars as opposed to other countries was quite poor. The GDP figures show that the levels are equivalent for any of the top participating countries. It was a quick and legitimate way to show this, even though Beatle seems to not approve.

I'll agree that the GDP argument was quick but I don't think it was very legitimate.


DohertyWins!: What you did was in very poor taste. That's uncalled for. A little be of ribbing is fine but a blatant assault like that is not needed.

Woooo woooo woooo! The Friendship police have come to arrest me! Please give me your address as I have been ordered to send you some milk and freshly baked chocolate ship cookies as my sentence. I hope this will wash away my poor taste... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

To be honest, I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you upset that I wrote "Respondstosomeguy"? That's a blatant assault? I really don't think that's anything worth getting pissy about. Not trying to be offensive but I don't want this place to become dull (skipping while holdign hands a la Big Bird).


To counter some of the new points
Scheduling: Yes its quite hard for American teams to go to Australia based on cost and timelines. However there are an additional 5 other comps to go to not including East and West. FS and FSG fits well inside any North American design/build/race schedule.

FGermany became big this last year, and I bet you will see a couple American teams there next year. When Italy and Brazil become bigger then you will see more US teams there. US teams have been slow(er) to travel to other comps because the US had the only competition for a very long time. That's my excuse at least.


Beatle you are away from you shop for 1 single week when you go to a competition. You miss one week of classes, one week of building, one week of design. Its not like this time period is a month or more. It's a single week. You need to have more then half your team unload your car? So then you must have 4-7 members in total. Why must the other half stay back to work on the car? Do you do the same when you go to East or West, leave half the team behind to work on the next car.

Sorry friend, but shipping the car (by boat) takes a LOT longer than 1 week. Then you ship it back. Somebody can offer some realistic estimates, but I would imagine more like 2 months round trip. Can a team do this once? Sure. Twice? I seriously doubt it, unless you plan on forgoing all of your summer testing...do 1-2 competitions well or do 3+ poorly. Airfrieghting the car is outrageously $$$.

[GSpeedR]

Answer, I just realized that you were upset with me for berating Beatle. He's a good friend of mine and we joke around as such. Seriously, I'm just having fun here; if you really think I'm out of line then let me know and I'll stop injecting my posts with random hilarity (at least I think so). Don't want to come off as an asshole.

[Beatle]

Originally posted by DohertyWins!:
Don't want to come off as an asshole.

Too late

[GSpeedR]

Originally posted by Beatle:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DohertyWins!:
Don't want to come off as an asshole.

Too late </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Know what we call Beatle on the team (besides Beatle)? "Kibbles". Everytime he enters the shop everyone chants, "Kibbles n bits n bits n bits n bits" until he leaves and we resume work on the car.

[Kyle Walther]

Going back to one of the original questions. Looking solely at scores alone. it seems that the most "competitive" events are East, West, Germany, and student based on 10 or more teams scoring ~700 or above.

example score of 680

event--place
east---18th
germ---12th
west---11th
FSUK---11th
japa---7th
aust---3rd
ital---3rd
braz---2nd

[Kyle Walther]

oops posted twice

[Big Bird]

"Beatle's name is Brian and he's a bigger asshole in person than he is on the forums. I've tried working with the guy on numerous occaisions but he has offended me on every intellectual (and physical) level and I simply won't stand for it any longer." DW

Oh yeah, I remember him. Due to his questionable personal hygiene I never let him get close enough to offend me physically. That sounds awful DW - you might want to consider therapy.

I might have misinterpreted answerfsg above, but an OS trip does take a lot more than a week out of your schedule. On a purely personnel basis, we allocate around 4-5 weeks - to make sure someone is there early to do all the messy organizing stuff, making sure cars are out of customs and all that stuff. Leaving it until the week of the event is inviting trouble - you don't want to find your car damaged in shipping the day before the event.

Anyway, enough from me - I'd rather sit back and enjoy the spectacle of DW's and Beatle's once great friendship self-destructing before our very eyes. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers all,

[Beatle]

Originally posted by DohertyWins!:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Beatle:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DohertyWins!:
Don't want to come off as an asshole.

Too late </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Know what we call Beatle on the team (besides Beatle)? "Kibbles". Everytime he enters the shop everyone chants, "Kibbles n bits n bits n bits n bits" until he leaves and we resume work on the car. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I cant say anything bad about Doherty, he is a gentleman and a scholar... who wets the bed, but a gentleman and a scholar none the less

[darienphoenix]

What a mature discussion this has become.

"No YOU'RE stupid!"

"Well YOU wet the bed!"

[GSpeedR]

"I like a man who farts when he types." - DohertyWins!

[Arturo Mendieta J]

I feel proud about to participate in FSAE, no matters the place of the comp when I see the hearth , teamwork and spirit perfromed by the teams. one day on Campus I met a guy who was speaking about FSAE and inmediately I wanted to know about it, I begin in SAE site and inmediately knew that I must to be there, I noticed too that a team from Venezuela (USB) was doing something that appeared amazing to me, I felt inspired... later I went to speak with my Univ FSAE Team Leader and I think he didn't took importance to the fact, I didn't understood him... then I read the rules and I looked for mexican teams in the comp, I felt inspired again when I saw that Universidad La Salle was one of the first International entries in the event, and that Tec de Chihuahua did too... wow!, unfortunately I had to leave the FSAE 06' team, the causes: some of the non written rules of a FSAE team. But I never gave up because I beleived in this project from the begining, I decided to make an application for an US Visa and supported by whom now I consider loyable friends: Lolita, Adrian, Andrei I attended to the competition as an observer, I see that some people think that weather in MPG was horrible, believe me, I saw it as if it would be beautiful, I was so happy to saw those engineerig creations, just once I saw one in my life, -it was the Universidad Panamericana car. I can't explain the feeling.... it was so beautiful... it was amazing, but I saw something else: the team work, the perseverance and the spirit against the odds... I felt that if I wanted to participate in FSAE, before I should to visit it and to learn about this experience to invite another guys to form a new team, sometimes I felt very lonely and disappointed when I left purasangre Racing, a team that I believed on, now I know that something better was going to arrive... Now I'm doing my best to learn and to have the guts to lead our New Team I feel they are the right people to work with, I feel proud of my new partners, I know the way is going to be hard and that many times I'm going to feel tired, anger, hungry, sad maybe etc. but as Carroll Smith said "an absolut refusal to be beaten" is necessary in Racing as it is in life, this is that I love from this comp, I love this challenge and all that it implies, no matters if our team cannot reach the 07 registration of if we cannot reach visas, we are going to design, to build and to test a FSAE car attending to the SAE Worldwide Rules.... the spirit is the real meaning in racing, thanks a lot for this knowledege experience, NEVER GIVE UP, keep going! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Kevin Hayward]

Arturo,

Thank you very much for that post. I must admit that I felt ashamed at reading it, as I had forgotten what it was like to first see a FSAE competition. Working on the UWA team was one of the best experiences of my life, and if I had only got to go to one competition I would still be incredibly lucky. The fact that I got to compete in 6 competitions, attend 8, including travelling to the United States 3 times (well a fourth when I got a job in motorsport due to my time in FSAE) is pretty amazing.

I guess my dissappointment for the US teams not travelling stems from the fact that the competition started in the US. The first good FSAE cars I saw were RIT and UTA in Australia 2000 (and they were bloody good). At that stage it almost seemed impossible to compete on an even level with teams that professional, with cars that good. In the last 5 years I have become more and more cynical as I have seen international teams take to the competition and improve rapidly. At the same time it seems that the US teams are travelling less, and with the risk of offending some very good teams they appear to be stagnating a little.

I do feel as if the FSAE competition internationally is a little like the United Nations. Unless the United States actively participates its claim for legitimacy is severly compromised. The FSAE competition is something very special. Its good spirit and openeness on such a large scale is virtually unheard of in motorsport, and as an engineering competition its scope is massive. My own team has drastically altered the careers of a bunch of people going through and has been a very good advertisement for science education in our state. The international aspect of the competition is one that is really starting to take shape and has a lot of engineers communicating across large distances. I strongly believe that this should be encouraged as much as possible, both for the benefit of the participants and the promotion of engineering education around the world. There is no doubt that the easiest thing for teams to do is to compete in their local competitions and no more. The danger is that we lose a very good opportunity. One of the things I appreciate about the Australian SAE organisation is that there is a fund set aside to help the winner of the Australian competion travel to an international competition. Better still if the winner does not travel the prize is handed down the line until a team takes it to travel. It is not enough to cover the costs (not insignificant either), but the spirit in which the money is given is a very good one.

Anyway sorry for the ranting and what is definitely an emotional post ... but gosh darnit I love this competition http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kev

[Cody the Genius]

It is good to hear of the love that people still have of this competition. It does friggin' rock.

I was a member of the Georgia Tech team from 2002-2005 and I can definately explain some ups and downs that the teams go through. When I came in there was an experienced base already leading the team. Georgia Tech had just come off of a win their second strait win in FS as well as a top 5 in F-SAE. Things were awesome. Team was growing, people were learning, and we were getting better. We built a wicked fast car and scored another Top 5 at F-SAE before going to F-SAE-A to once again win.

note: this is where I interject and say that great teamwork, a fast car, awesome design knowledge and solid static event preparation means you finish well, period. A good showing at any competion simply comes to that, the team that wants it bad enough and refuses to lose, wins. The question of location still comes down to who is the best prepared, everyone has setbacks and it just means you have to want it more.

back to the story: Times were great, our school loved us and champagne poured from the heavens, or something like that. But we were set back and the 2004 car was slightly neglected in preparations for the F-SAE-A competition. We lacked test time and our cooling fans were overloading the charging system. Car spun in endurance and dead batteries didn't start it. Shit. We finished 31st but the worst wasn't over.
A big part of our team was graduating and under the strained nerves of being very behind with the car, rifts were subtly forming in the team. The team was beginning to factionalize and in the prescence of a skilled manpower and leadership vacuum it started to fall apart. The car wasn't getting done, stuff was going wrong and fingers were getting pointed. It got nasty. The team split. We missed comp. New leadership elections were held questionably. People were kicked off and I was one if them. 2/3 of the team quit. An awesome team brought to its knees.


Now that I have written a novel- The point is that you can not tell how anything is going to happen. The competitions a team attends, the qualiy of the current team, the number of competitions a team has won in the past;all this has nothing to do with a team's future. One person can not make a whole team competitive and a great finnish one year doesn't mean the team will even exist next year. That's racing. All you can do is learn as much as you can and hope for the best. Where you go to school and which competitions you attend has really very little bearing on how much you can learn.

"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." - Einstein

[JerryLH3]

What a thread this has turned into. I think that which competition you go to has relatively little bearing on what you can get out of the entire experience. Although, yes, it surely would be quite fun and an immense accomplishment to compete internationally.

As far as picking schools based on FSAE teams goes, I guess I have done that myself. After I finished my prereqs at the community college level, I was going to have to transfer back to a university. Initially, I wanted to go back to the University of Florida, where I had started college before life went crazy. The main reason for wanting to go back was they had an FSAE team, while my other option, the University of South Florida, did not. However, about the time I had to make my decision, USF started an FSAE team, and I thought it would be a great opportunity to help build something. So, I went to USF. This being the second year of FSAE at USF, we finished 42nd, and improvement from 96th in 2005.

I suppose what I'm really trying to say is you don't need to be at a certain competition or go to a perennial top 10 team to get something out of this experience. What you get out of it, what you learn, what you take with you the rest of your life - all of it - depends on what YOU put into it.

[RiNaZ]

Arturo,
that was a great post. Tons of writing mistakes, but boy was that a great post! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Just wanna share my side of the story here. I first join FSAE in 1999 during my first semester as a freshman. I found out that, prior to me joining the team, they've been trying to keep the program alive for at least 7 years now. And during my years in FSAE, we've had several team leaders come and go and that includes team members. As far as i could remember, i am the only member from 1999 team still in the current FSAE team. .

I started going to the competition in the early 2001 or 2002 and never missed one except in 2005 (best friend's wedding on the same w/end). When new team members found out that i go to the competition every single year, the most and only question i get is, "why?."

It's hard to explain to ppl who only think of these competitions as a thing they have to go to becoz they spent so much time already building the car, or worse, so that they can get class credit. My team advisor put it about right, when he said that some students just treat this as a club, and to them, that's exactly what it is, a club.

I wish i had the money to go to international competitions. I've worked and saved money every spring, so i can attend the competition in the summer. Just like kevin, i still remember how excited i was everytime i finish spring semester and leave for detroit with my school's name all over my shirt and hat. And everytime i walk around the pit area, and talk to guys, they always ask where my car at and i could only give them a shrug with a "next year" answer.

Now im proud to say that after a decade and a half, we finally brought a car to the 06 competition. The first and only team in our school's history to design, build and compete in the FSAE competition. We didnt do too well, and everybody in the team thought we could've done better, but i dont think they can fully appreciate the extend of our achievement by bringing the car to the competition. It's a wonderful feeling no matter which competition you're competing in. Next year, the team is hoping to be the first SAE team to compete and finish all events! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

p/s: like the previous posts, we're hijacking the thread http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. I hear some remarkable stories every year about teams that go out of their way to get the car done. I would love to hear them if any of you guys would wanna share.

[Big H]

but if a japanese team, or a mexican team goes to detroit where no one understand there sales presentation, wether it be a language barrier or a cultural barrier, then what did they learn? I mean no disrespect by saying that. I think its best to stay in my borders, simply because it makes the most sense. We can drive to both comps within our border, all the judges speak our language, were competing against cars of similar ability, and we dont have all the extra financial burden of shipping and flying etc. And here (I believe) lies the inherent problem.
Complacency.

I can guaruntee you if those Japanese/Mexican teams entered a US competition they would learn far more than I would (as person who learnt English as a first language - even if I am from another country).

Our team hasn't gone to another event apart from the Australian event - and thats prehaps because there has been a lack of confidence in the cars our team has produced previously, more so in that we prehaps weren't proud enough of ourselves that we were willing to sacrifice all the aformentioned things to go overseas and compete.
I am pretty sure that ethos will change for next year.

From my own personal experience, the majority of the participants in this event have flogged thier arseholes out for the number of years they have participated in the comp. Be it working a few days a week to survive, working on the car 50+hours a week, plus having to do subjects at uni, and trying to juggle that all with attempting to maintain relationships with friends/boyfriends/girlfriends/family etc.
We have done that to push ourselves, see how much we can learn etc. etc Be it whatever...
Anyway, I cannot think of a reason why I WOULDN'T want to do a comp overseas irrespective of my reasoning for participating in this event in the first place.

And I can tell you I (and a number of other members on our team) are pushing to go overseas next year.

Big H
Swinburne Drivetrain

[Greg H]

Originally posted by Big H:
Our team hasn't gone to another event apart from the Australian event - and thats prehaps because there has been a lack of confidence in the cars our team has produced previously, more so in that we prehaps weren't proud enough of ourselves that we were willing to sacrifice all the aformentioned things to go overseas and compete.

That's another interesting point. If a team's car isn't reliable, then what motivation do they have to go to another country for it to break? I would say that would be much more disheartening to arrange such a trip just to watch your car fail again. But the low finishing rate is a whole other thread.