dry sump

[Dave M]

for those teams that run a dry sump, do you run your scavange pump externally with a belt/pulley or off the water pump drive(and run an electric water pump)? For the external belt/pulley set up, what problems do you have when modifying the generator cover for the output shaft to drive the pump? For the water pump drive, what companies make a pump for the 600's?
Thanks

[Dave M]

for those teams that run a dry sump, do you run your scavange pump externally with a belt/pulley or off the water pump drive(and run an electric water pump)? For the external belt/pulley set up, what problems do you have when modifying the generator cover for the output shaft to drive the pump? For the water pump drive, what companies make a pump for the 600's?
Thanks

[BeaverGuy]

Our dry sump system is gear driven off of the crank on the side with the trigger wheel. A new cover is machined.

As for electric water pumps davies craig makes an electric pump that some teams have used.

[jonno]

not entirely sure on the exact fabrication of any additional parts, but the dry sump scavenge pump on the brunel CBR600 is from Pace and is driven off the water pump spindle. a bracket has to be manufactured to mount it, but it's real straightforward.
As for water then, obviously the scavenge pump has nicked the water pump drive. As mentioned by beaverguy, most teams use the larger davies craig pump, but if you're real carefull with matching all your pumping / water head loss curves, you can use the smaller pump (again like we do at brunel) but you'll need a real high performance heat exchanger

[Micko..]

there are a few teams that run the stock scavenge pump off a kawasaki ZZR1100 run off the water pump, they work well and require an adaption plate to be made up and a new drive shaft made but are relitivly easy to adapt. what engine are you running?

[Dave M]

2001-2002 GSXR 600. I'm trying to work with pace for a waterpump driveshaft driven setup, and using their C pump.

[PipeBom]

I've been wondering, but is it possible to run an electric oil pump for the dry sump setup? I'm guessing not as I haven't seen or heard anyone run one.

[MikeWaggoner at UW]

Electric scavenges are sometimes used, and there's an advantage because you can run them before starting the engine to clean out the sump (sometimes they drain back overnight etc.).

I'm not aware of any electric pressure pumps (or any reason to run them).

[bowmanator]

Race Car Engineering magazine had an article about electric water pumps last month. It said (with a degree of hype) the reason to run them is that they use energy more efficiently.

A gear driven pump draws more power than is nessasary at high rpm's, where as an electric pump can efficiently manage circulation under all rpm conditions.

The article also claims the cooling rate falls off as a certain flow rate is passed, and since these high rates draw the most engine power, it's a lose-lose for mechanical water pumps.

You all probly know this stuff, but hey it's late and typing is fun!

[B Dana]

Dave M,

The University of Minnesota has used dry sumps since 1999. Since 2001, all have been driven off shafts through the generator cover. The last version (used on the 2003 car - there was no 2004 car as we didn't register in time) used three scavenge pumps and one supply. The mechanical water pump was removed to make room for a scavenge line and was replaced by an electric pump.

The drive belt had a tendancy to fall off and did not last very long (roughly 15 hours) when it did stay on. The idler took careful adjustment and froze once during a dyno run. I can't say how easy/hard it was modify the generator cover as that part was inherited from the 2001 team. In my opinion, the drive arrangement was the weakest part of the system and would be the area I would focus most of the devlopment effort on if designing a new system.

Regards,

B Dana

[CAV]

B Dana or U Minnesota guys,

any background on your 3 scavenge stages? most teams have only 2.

also, do you have data showing how the oil pressure improves with the dry sump? how long you can do a skidpad for? just curious. thanks

[CAV]

Has anyone documented that their engine holds oil pressure better going left than right? any theories?

[B Dana]

CAV,

The dry sump was designed prior to my involvement and I can't say for certain what the original rationale was for the third pump. From my observation of the system, I would say the third pump is needed to scavenge the area under transmission. The other two pickups are located under either end of the crank and are effective during turning and braking. Whithout the third pickup, oil could collect under the transmission during acceleration. Baffling might of worked to fix that problem but the third pump was probably viewed as a certain fix.

Whatever the reasoning for the third scavenge pump, we could do skidpad as long as we wanted to with it. In terms of improvement in oil pressure, I can't help you since I don't have baseline data to draw from. As far as I know, the stock oiling system was never used or tested in a car.

Regards,

B Dana