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View Full Version : WT - Rolling and non-rolling (overturning) moments



exFSAE
03-30-2008, 07:56 PM
After 3.5 years I think I may actually have got this thing figured out. WT and roll axis inclination and all that jazz. So let me throw a few statements out here, tell me if you agree or think I'm nuts.

Using RC's as a good approximation of things, rather than FAPs..

There's some lateral force generated by the tires. The overall amount of weight transfer, steady state, is essentially only dependent on weight, CG height, and track width.

Sprung mass rolling weight transfer is elastic, dependent on roll moment arm from sprung mass CG to the neutral roll axis. It takes to transfer this load since it is dependent on spring displacement and damper velocities. The split of elastic weight transfer front to rear versus time is therefore a function of spring and damper force distribution.

The rest of that total weight transfer then must come from the non-rolling, overturning moment. Its split is governed by the relative heights of the roll centers and the fore/aft CG location. This weight transfer is (near) instantaneous (??). It is direct.

WT from the unsprung masses is likewise (near) instantaneous). It is direct.

If the above is true I would think that has some implications for transient response and linearity. Ie your TLLTD may be set for a real balanced car, but if the elastic and direct contributions are proportioned opposite, then you could have somethin crazy where the car initially doesn't bite but then is neutral when the chassis takes a set.. or turns in really well initially and comes to balance (or washes out.) True?

Does all the above also imply that if your car pitches forward or back that your geometric roll stiffness distribution changes, since the RC heights will be changing? For example under the brakes having the neutral roll axis pitching further forward.

flavorPacket
03-30-2008, 08:53 PM
makes sense to me. get a car with adjustable RC height and data acq and you will see many of the things you just said.

keep in mind though that a lot of other things come into play (friction/compliance, tire temp) that will obfuscate your theories in real life.

BillCobb
03-31-2008, 02:49 PM
There is an additional moment in the weight transfer subsystem from the tire Mx moments that work on the sprung mass via the roll-by-camber coefficients. These coefficient values depend on the suspension linkage positions and types. It works front and rear. In most 'cars' this adds an additional 10% to the roll gain (roll by g) of the vehicle. Because Mx can get VERY large at max lat (or incipient rollover), you don't want to ignore it. There is some interesting feed forward instability that can be 'achieved' because of this, as well. When the Red, Red Robbin' goes hop, hop, hoppin' along. You'll maybe see it in the autocross...

flavorPacket
03-31-2008, 03:15 PM
I learn something new everyday.

I find it interesting that they don't bother to put this in my vehicle dynamics lecture notes...

exFSAE
03-31-2008, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by flavorPacket:
I learn something new everyday.

If you think that's good, take a look at the sign and magnitude of the Mx in some of the FSAE data.. versus applied lateral force.

flavorPacket
03-31-2008, 07:50 PM
been there. we ran private F&M tests because TTC doesn't test our tires.

exFSAE
03-31-2008, 07:59 PM
Private F&M tests??? Yikes. Slightly expensive?

flavorPacket
03-31-2008, 08:01 PM
good thing we live in the one of the richest countries in the world, eh?

ben
04-02-2008, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by flavorPacket:
good thing we live in the one of the richest countries in the world, eh?

You seen your deficit recently?! Nothing like a good house of cards eh :-p

Ben

flavorPacket
04-02-2008, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by ben:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by flavorPacket:
good thing we live in the one of the richest countries in the world, eh?

You seen your deficit recently?! Nothing like a good house of cards eh :-p

Ben </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the world is built on leverage. it was bound to happen.


PS your housing bubble is worse than ours. And your tax system is much less forgiving for the middle class who have overextended themselves with credit.

ben
04-02-2008, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by flavorPacket:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ben:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by flavorPacket:
good thing we live in the one of the richest countries in the world, eh?

You seen your deficit recently?! Nothing like a good house of cards eh :-p

Ben </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the world is built on leverage. it was bound to happen.


PS your housing bubble is worse than ours. And your tax system is much less forgiving for the middle class who have overextended themselves with credit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're not wrong. I'm just about clinging onto the lowest rung of the housing ladder, but we're firmly off topic now...

BillCobb
04-02-2008, 10:04 AM
You do have better chocolate, though. I feasted on Cadburys all day once. Then a pint and a pound. Oh, and the drive from London to Scotland in 3.5 hours was memorable, too: in a Senator with throttle all the way up.

ben
04-02-2008, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by BillCobb:
You do have better chocolate, though. I feasted on Cadburys all day once.

One of the guilty pleasures of living in Birmingham... :-)

Ben