Cost Rules - Discussion 2010

[Bill Riley]

New discussion area to discuss rules, cost tables and software for 2010 competitions.

[Daleezer]

Honestly, I can't figure this program out. I'm trying to use the application and only about 70% of it works. Like people have said before it removes parts and in some cases adds them. Equations don't work or there's no explanation of how to properly enter values. For example, when entering in the engine using "ultra high performance" from the materials table, the cost is $2.50/cc and the Honda CBRs are 599cc yet my cost is still only $2.50. Am I doing something wrong or is this a glitch with the equation? This same thing happens with the "fluid, oil" as well.

This program has a lot of potential especially since all the information is in one place, but I've spent the last 3 hours redoing the stuff I was up until 5:00am last night. I also wish there was a save button so I know where the info is rather than syncing at the end of the night. I don't know enough about Access to understand what is going on, but I'm afraid everything I do for a few hours will disappear because I close the program.

Sorry if this is a repeat from the previous thread, but we went to VIR last year and didn't use the application. I figured we'd give it a shot this year and now I'm not sure. I really like the overall idea of it especially since it generates the excel sheets for you, but the problems may overcome the good of the program. I hate ranting, but I'm beginning to understand everyones frustrations.

[Bill Riley]

David, that's good feedback. We have a list of bugs we're trying to work through fixing. Take the Honda engine, for example. Are you adding it using the "+" key then the drop down, the materials browser or the materials table? Then you change the quantity to 599cc? Does the price work correctly? If not, is there a value for density that if you delete it does it calculate correctly? Thanks, Bill Riley.

[feuerradder]

Hello!

I don't know why some components are not listed in the table materials this year, but the last were in the table. For example, the Megasquirt ECU was the last year but not this year, why?

Have i to request for new models and components? or use for example the students ECU?

[T. Mourlam]

Mr. Riley,

My question is in regard to the distribution of data from a sync to other team members. Let me elaborate:

Two weeks ago I had fields entered in the Assembly section with all the parts listed. This week, I then decided to restructure my Assembly fields to a more logical layout after reading the 2009 Cost Report Thread. But between my initial input (and sync) to my latest change (and sync) my team members had synced to add their own sub-systems. So now when I sync today, my sub-system regains the assemblies from the past that I had previously deleted.

In short, what is the best method of making modifications (including deletions) and having them "stick" to my other team member's computers. One idea I thought of was to clear all local data (including team members) and have myself sync my updated report and then have the rest of my team then sync.

Lastly, I too am receiving the "Fastener ID" prompt when syncing and it appears to function normally if I push cancel, otherwise if I push okay, it stops the sync.

Thanks so much!

[Daleezer]

Originally posted by Bill Riley:
David, that's good feedback. We have a list of bugs we're trying to work through fixing. Take the Honda engine, for example. Are you adding it using the "+" key then the drop down, the materials browser or the materials table? Then you change the quantity to 599cc? Does the price work correctly? If not, is there a value for density that if you delete it does it calculate correctly? Thanks, Bill Riley.

I believe I did try both with the drop-down and tables and had the same problem both times. I did change the density value, but I'm not sure if I deleted it or just changed the value. I'll check it again next time I work on it and let you know. I'd hate to go back to excel and start over, but I'm mainly worried that when it's crunch time that a lot of things will be missing or wrong because of the glitches or bugs. Will these be fixed before the due date of the report or is this something we'll have to check, recheck then check again before sending in?

[Bill Riley]

New Announcement on Access Application and Michigan and California Requirements Posted

Please note that we have two new announcements, one covering the Michigan and California requirements and one about the MS Access application.

http://www.fsaeonline.com/

In summary we think the best thing to do is to migrate the current Access application to a web based program. This will actually cost the same or less as fixing all the bugs in the current system and mean there will be no software to install, no sync'ing necessary, and should make for all around better experience for you students. The down side is we can't possibly do that in time for the 2010 Michigan and California competitions.

My honest advice is to use Excel or your own system for this year because of all the known bugs with the current application. I hate to see you try to use it and end up the night before having problems. The bug workaround pdf posted to fsaeonline.com has all my learnings on ways to use the existing software, such as not using raw materials (I saw a posting about that earlier).

I will continue to update the Excel Cost tables for 2010 so anyone not using the software will not have to use it for looking up costs.

[Bill Riley]

feuerradder: Megasquirt and Microsquirt are both listed in the materials table. We're migrating some of these items still to the software, however, so they should be in there soon.

T. Mourlam: I know there are problems with sync. We were going to be putting in significiant time and money into fixing it, but have decided to go to a web system so there will no longer be a sync process. The data will come right out of the database in real time. I recommend not using the sync and in fact using Excel as I suspect it will be less frustrating for you.

Daleezer: I advise switching to Excel this year, unfortunately.

[R.Trickett]

The cost report prices a Tripod CV joint with grease at $45. Our system uses an integrated stub shaft and cup similar to Taylor Race's Tulip style stub axle seen here:

http://www.taylor-race.com/fra...Stub%20Axles%20Tulip (http://www.taylor-race.com/framedmap.cfm?drawing=STUBAXLETULIP&subcat2=Tulip%20Style%20Stub%20Axles&category=Chain%20Drive&subcategory1=Stub%20Axles%20Tulip)

Does the "CV joint" definition include both the integrated stub shaft-cup as well as the tripod itself? Clarification would be appreciated.

Thank you,

[R.Trickett]

The cost report prices a Tripod CV joint with grease at $45. Our system uses an integrated stub shaft and cup similar to Taylor Race's Tulip style stub axle. Posting the link for reference resulted in auto-moderation of the post, otherwise i would include it here.

Does the "CV joint" definition include both the integrated stub shaft-cup as well as the tripod itself? Clarification would be appreciated.

[Daleezer]

Bill, luckily my laziness has paid off and I'm not too far into the report to switch. I appreciate the help and hopefully the new system works out. When will the excel sheets be updated? Thanks for your help.

[D Collins Jr]

For my own reasons, I'm going to try to push through the software and not use Excel. Unless of course this problem cannot be solved: does anyone know why my fasteners table (specifically at the assembly level) will only show three or four entries? Does anyone know a way around this? I've tried using the "Add Record" button and using the Fastener Table and Fastener Browser to try and add records to my table. It's a very hit or miss process and only seems to be at the assembly level. Any ideas?

[Bill Riley]

The CV costs are for the actual rolling element internal. So the ball/star assembly or the needle roller trilobe including grease. The housing for the internals are cost as made. So you will have to cost the Taylor tulip or stub axles as made.

The fastener trick is to add however you want but then to reselect from the drop down. Then when you leave that row it should recalculate the cost correctly.

[Bill Riley]

I will be traveling and not have access to the internet/email until March 15. I ask you all to support each other until I'm back and will answer any open questions then.

[Alex_sevdub]

Does anyone know how to cost rod ends? I've been looking in fasteners table but it doesn't appear neither rod end nor rose joint nor heim joint. Do they appear with a different name?

Can anyone help? Thanks in advance. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Essayee]

I don't know if it's lack of sleep, ambiguous wording or what, but the update they sent out recently has me a bit confused as to what they want out of the hard copy. They say the hard copy must "Use the official Cost Tables (posted on www.fsaeonline.com (http://www.fsaeonline.com)) for all costs."

Is this simply a way of saying all the prices we site must be based on these tables and not receipts (i.e. it's ok to use the cost software to generate the hard copy) or is it specifically saying that we must use the excel spreadsheets on the website to generate our hard copy?

Thanks

[George 4]

Rod ends are in the materials table under the bearings category.

[Alex_sevdub]

Mmm... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I was looking at them as fasteners. Thanks a lot!!!

[George 4]

Essayee,

Yes all prices are to taken from the "official price tables" located on the cost website, don't use receipts. If you are using the application and it is working for you then you can continue to use it.

Personally I have found that the application is causing more problems than it is worth so I have switched to the excel spreadsheet. The excel tables will continue to be updated throughout the 2010 year but whether the cost application software will be updated is another question...one I don't know the answer to.

George

[Essayee]

Thanks. After speaking to the guy on our team cost least year I came to that same conclusion.

I tried to use the application, but you're absolutely right, it seems to be way more of a hassle than it's worth at the moment. I can't select FSAEM in the event drag-down, so I don't really trust that the application is communicating with SAE's servers.

I tried to mess around with the application as a tool for calculating the prices, but they proved to be a huge pain to use. Although a they initially require little more work as you get into the groove of using them, the excel tables seem to be the less time consuming approach when you take into account the amount of time wasted when the application refuses to play nice.

[Fabiola]

Hy Mr. Riley,

I'd like to know what's the difference between 'tapping holes' and 'threading'.

Tks,

Fabiola.

[Ani_V]

Hi All. I am from a rookie team. Kindly take time to answer my queries regarding the cost report.

1) There are some components which are not listed in tables and we have to cost them as if we have made them. Can we cost them as if we have bought them ? If yes, how do we change the currency from Indian National Rupee to US Dollar as in the cost report.


2) In case of some materials, AIR is mentioned in column of cost. What is AIR?


3) In the FCA input sheet, there is one sheet for assembly where we need to fill in all the parts, materials, processes and fasteners. Then there is another sheet corresponding to Part (named part_1). what exactly is this sheet for? Then there is another sheet of Cross sections with item order before every row. What is the significance of this sheet?


4) During costing materials which we have bought as made, if we are not able to deduce the processes involved, can we simply cost them as bought? What is the penalty in this case?

[Alex_sevdub]

Hi all,

Does anyone know how to cost long and short drive shafts? I was thinking on sending an AIR for each as we bought them but it is strange to me that not a single drive shaft appears in materials table. Any guess?

Thanks a lot.

[Essayee]

AIR is an add-in request.

I believe drive shafts must be cost as made, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

[Alex_sevdub]

Thanks Essayee. I'll wait for if anyone else answers. I thought in that option as well but I was looking at the parts they say that have to be cost as made and these shafts didn't appear.

Well, thanks for your answer http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[George 4]

Fabiola
I take "tapping holes" as using a hand tap to create the thread while "threading" is done using a machine.

Ani_V
1) All costs need to come from the standard cost tables, pretty sure if you bought the part and it isn't listed on the cost tables you need to cost it as if you made it.

2) AIR = Add Item Request...each competition has a different deadline for when the cut off is

3) An assembly is made up of parts some of which you will have you make yourself. The part sheet is for the parts you cost as made for the assembly. The cross sections sheet is for the cross sectional areas of tubes and other stocks, it converts from english to metric.

4) I have run into similar problems with trying to figure out what processes were used, I used the processes that I thought were logical. What the penalty for costing something as bought when it shouldn't be I cannot answer, that is probably something Mr. Riley should answer.

Alex_sevdub
I agree with Essayee, cost the drive shafts as made...at least that's what we have done.

[Alex_sevdub]

Thank you George. If you both agree I'll do that unless Bill in his coming back says the contrary.

Good weekend!

[LU Drivetrain 09/10]

Hello all,

I see that several other teams here are using Taylor Racing components for their Drivetrain system. I was just looking for clairification regarding the costing of the components used to spring load the axles in this type of system. I see that the plug and snubber is listed in the materials table. Are we able to assume the same unit price for the plunger (used on the inboard side) as the plug (outboard side)? If so, are we able to include the spring cost on the inboard side with the unit cost of the spring plunger? I was originally planning on just using the rapid prototype process for both the plug and plunger (I didn't see the plug in the materials table the first time I went through it)... but I found it a little strange the plug was listed and not the plunger, so I figured maybe we could use the same unit price for both? If anyone else using the Taylor Racing components could clear this up for me (or Bill when you get back), it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Michael Kelly
Drivetrain Team
Lakehead University ThunderWolf Racing
www.LUFSAE.com (http://www.LUFSAE.com)
mkelly3@lakeheadu.ca

[Essayee]

Hey again guys. A guy on my team just asked a pretty good question in respect to something I apparently completely overlooked in the rules. The rules say all weights must be computed using official density tables. I've been using google for my numbers (although for example for composites I've been finding the density of our specific layups & volume fractions). Is there indeed an official density table, and if so, does anyone have a link to it? I thought I had just about every document on www.fsaeonline.com, (http://www.fsaeonline.com,) but I guess not...

[Alex_sevdub]

Hi Essayee,

I have a density table from the organisation but I don't know if it is still on the web as I was given it by a teammate.

In case you don't find it I don't mind sending it to you. Let me know.

[Bill Riley]

I'm back and thank everyone for answering in my absence. All the responses look correct, but here is a quick summary for copmleteness:

Threading: correct, 'tapping hole' is just that, using a hand tap on a pre-drilled hole. 'Threading' is a lathe operation.

You can't cost anything as 'bought' unless it is listed in the materials or fasteners tables. So there are no conversions needed because the tables are all in dollars. If you cost it as you made it everything still comes from the materials table but you add processes to get to the finished item.

The required spreadsheet is called '2010_FSAE_eBOM.xls'. This spreadsheet is required to be submitted, but does not contain enough information to comply with the judge requirements, which means you have to submit additional information. There is no required format, but the 'fca_inputs.xls' gives you the minimum fields required to show the costs of parts and assemblies. This sheet essentially duplicates the software inputs/outputs. My recommendation, however, is if you use it format it so it is legible and in a good sized font so the judges can read it.

Drive shafts, axles, half shafts, whatever the term you use are all cost as made.

On the Taylor Race snubbers, the cost include the spring. I have never actually seen these, only read the website so someone tell me if we're missing something from the tables. My intention was to use the same cost for both sides of the half-shaft.

The question on official densities is a good one. That was the plan for 2009 but we dropped it as too cumbersome. You should use the actual density for your material. The important thing to remember is the cost is on a mass basis so as long as the volume and density give you the right mass then the cost will be correct. We check mass at the event generally, so make sure that is correct for your parts and adjust density to match. We'll update the rules to clarify this aspect for next year.

[Essayee]

Thank you for the answers Mr. Riley. I guess that means I won't be needing that table Alex, but thanks anyway for offering.

[D Collins Jr]

Working with the plumbing sections of the car right now...does anyone know what process to use for attaching fittings to hoses? Can I assume that hey magically get connected since no one in their right mind would make their own hoses for this? Or should I be using, say, Crimp Wire and just be prepared to explain to the judges that the tables don't consider crimping fittings? Thanks.

[CFS_Maria]

Hi

There is right now one Appendix C3, http://www.fsaeonline.com/Downloads/Appendix_C3.pdf

and one eBOM
http://www.fsaeonline.com/Down...s/2010_FSAE_eBOM.xls (http://www.fsaeonline.com/Downloads/2010_FSAE_eBOM.xls)

Is it the latter that is the one we should use?

Regards
Maria

[CFS_Maria]

Hi

Can I do one assembly with both front and rear upright instead of separating them?

As far as I understand, the important thing is that the parts and assemblies listed in the appendix is in the right system and not how I make up my assemblies and the containing parts. Is this correct?

Thanks.

[D Collins Jr]

CFS_Maria,

That is the exact explanation I got last year, so I'd assume it's still true.

I'm trying something different (at least from how we did it last year) and not making individual part files for components that are listed in the Materials Table (ie, Fuel Injectors, Dampers, etc.). Is anyone else doing this? I remember that there were problems last year at VIR when an "expected" part didn't show up on the full BoM, and if it's not a separate part, but rather a material line item within the assembly, this could happen. Any advice Bill?

[LU Drivetrain 09/10]

Does anyone know if we can cost a part as cast even if we actually machined it. If you were to have a 3000 car production line you would obviously cast it instead so I figured this would be acceptable, can anyone confirm this?

Thanks!

[D Collins Jr]

You can only cast parts as cast if they were actually cast. The manufacturing process used has to match the one that you cost it as. Even if you'd do it differently with a full production run, you have to cost it as machined if it was machined.

[LU Drivetrain 09/10]

Thanks D Collins Jr. but I was also hoping Bill you could confirm this to me. If we could cast our differential assembly it would literally cut our cost in half, so it just doesn't make sense to me that schools that are able to afford to actually cast it would get that advantage as oppose to the ones who can't.

[Bill Riley]

D Collins Jr: Fittings to hoses get assembled the same way as most everything else, using assembly labor. Most will be 'Assemble, 1 kg, interference'.

CFS_Maria: The Appendix C3 and eBOM posted that you reference are the latest and greatest and what you should use. You can organize the assemblies/parts anyway you want but keep in mind the judges are reading 140 reports and having a seperate line item for front and rear uprights may be more clear, less confusing and help you to avoid discussing it with the judges. But you're right, the Systems are very important as different judges review each system so if you put engine parts in body the engine judge may not see them.

D Collins Jr: I don't see a problem with having injectors for example as not a separate part but make sure it goes somewhere logical like fuel rail assembly. Remember I work on the rules and tables and the judges have their own preferences but the safest thing to do is have an injector part in a fuel rail assembly. That way it will be most obvious, especially when they are looking at your eBOM.

LU Drivetrain: David is correct. You can't cost a part as cast if you don't cast it. If you buy a part and required to cost it as made you can cost it as cast. See rule C3.6.1. The reason we do this is because we don't want to have the judges and students debating whether a billet part could be cast at the competition. The billet parts wouldn't have draft and could have undercuts, thin-thick wall sections, etc that would be impossible to replicate. This was a hotly debated topic two years ago when we wrote these rules and in the end we decided this was the best. If you have ideas or comments feel free to email them to me at katklauz@aol.com for discussion for the 2011 rules, but it would have to be something that is a go/no go assessment. We are trying to get away from all subjective assessments. That is why we have one price for all aluminum alloys. Because we couldn't tell what you have anyway so why incentivize 'creative costing'.

[Bill Riley]

I've posted an updated materials table, version 11.1.

[Sprocketeers2010]

Hello Mr.Riley and all the vehicle enthusiasts,

We are a new team to these contests. We are currently handling the Cost Report and have some aspects that we wish to have cleared.

1.)By April 5th, we need to have the following documents:
a.eBOM - Sent via email
b.BOM (Hard Copy with CD copy) - Sent via standard mail
c.Both (a & b) must have the following document filled out and added: fca_input.xls (http://www.fsaeonline.com/Downloads/2010_FSAE_eBOM.xls) fca_input.xls

2.) Is the 'fca_input.xls' file intended to represent every assembly with its respective parts?

3.) Are the 'fca_input.xls' files classified by category or system (e.g. Suspension System, Wheels and Tires, etc)?

4.) If the answer to the question above is yes, then there should be a total of 8 'fca_input.xls' files correct? One per system.

5.)Does the 'fca_input.xls'document, if required, have to represent the costs from the tables or what actually cost us to make the respective vehicle parts?

6.)Can we submit a preliminary eBOM to you before the deadline so that it may be verified for adequate format?

7.)Are drawings,photos, sketches or blow ups required for the deadline or are they only for the days of the competition?

8.) We have made several of our components, but the materials to create them were bought. For example, we bought the necessary aluminum to create our uprights. Will this be considered as 'Bought' or 'Made?

9.) In what document do we specify that parts have been 'Bought' or 'Made'?

10.) Is question 9 required for the April 5th cost report or for the document we show the judges at the contest?

11. Anything else that any of you feel that we should know, please inform us.

All the help will be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[EPMAl]

Hi,

I have the following questions to the cost report.

We use the Aprilia SXV550 along with the stock dry sump oil tank. Do we hav to cost it separately or can it be included in the engine cost?

There is a process for fastener installation, does this includes washer installation as well?

We use a pneumatic system for our clutch and shifter systems. I found valves, tanks and control module in the materials cost tables but I can't find any tubes, fittings, plugs, silencers, etc for air systems. Do we have to cost those?

We have Kodiak wheels but the cost tables only includes Kodiak shells, altought we bought the whole wheels from them. I am currently trying to find the invoice to find a part number (those were ordered 3 years ago). Can we simply use the shells and cost the center wheel as made?

Finally, we were looking for a process for snap-ring installation. What we are using now is Assemble, 1kg, interference, since you have to deform the ring to fit it in. Is this ok?

Thanks for your help.

[EPMAl]

Also, just to make sure, we made an AIR in february for polypropylene Innegra fiber. The decision table says it has been added to the database, but I can't see it in the cost tables. Has it only been add in the software database and that is why I don't find it in the tables.

Thanks again.

[Essayee]

Hi,

A team member of mine was wondering how we cost C-Clip installation. Is it the same thing as for those hose fittings (Install <1kg, interference)?

Thanks.

[Bill Riley]

Sprocketeers2010: I responded to your email to Kathleen McDonald today which should address your post.

EPMAI: If the external oil tank is OEM and included in the engine package then it is included in the engine cost. The same would be true for the OEM lines and fittings. For more information refer to the comments field of the engine materials since there are exceptions for the intake and fuel systems.

Fastener installation included washers. The nuts are handled through the reaction tool.

You have to cost everything on the vehicle. The tubes, fittings, plugs are all listed. Silencers would either be tanks or you would need an Add Item Request. Look in the plumbing section of the materials table.

You'll need an AIR for the Kodiak wheels, we probably don't need the old invoice just a model and preferably a link off the website.

Snap rings use the 'Assemble, 1 kg, Interference'.

I will have to look to see what happened to the Polypropylene fiber. I see we have a price listed so you can use that in the mean time.

Essayee: Yes, use the 'Install, 1kg, Interference'.

[WarwickRhi]

I have a few questions;

1. How do you cost brake pads? I know they are cost as made, are they cost as you would anything else with the materials then the processes or is there a certain way of doing pads?

2. We will be using Additive Manufacture (SLS)of Inconel, Aluminium, Titanium and Alumide for a range of parts this year and although they are free to us I clearly need to cost them as made for the report. Will I need to get a quote for the material and process to submit an AIR? What information will be needed and is there any advice anyone can give me on how to do this?

3. Why is there a mixture of cm and mm when costing processes? It would be much more logical if it was all in mm. Just a thought.

Thanks http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[scottbob]

Mr. Riley,

I was just wondering why the ECU we use, the Haltech Platinum Sport 1000 Long Flying Lead Kit, is $45 more expensive (in the cost tables) than the Sport 2000 Long Flying Lead Kit. The Sport 2000 has more features and is significantly more expensive (in real dollars) than the Sport 1000. Here are some websites for example:

Price for Sport 2000
http://www.staticxmotorsports....ospecgradee11v2.aspx (http://www.staticxmotorsports.com/haltechplatinumsport2000standaloneemseculongwiring harnesskitautospecgradee11v2.aspx)

Price for Sport 1000
http://www.staticxmotorsports....ingharnesskite8.aspx (http://www.staticxmotorsports.com/haltechplatinumsport1000standaloneemseculongwiring harnesskite8.aspx)

I don't know if it's too late to change the AIR table, but I feel like it makes a lot of sense (and is fair) for the Sport 1000 to cost less than the Sport 2000.

Thanks,
Scott

[CFS_Maria]

Hi Mr Riley,

I have a few questions for you:

1.How about electronics for the steering wheel, do I put it in the steering system or electrical?

2.If we have a clutch handle/lever, like the ones used on a motorcycle, is there a entry for this in the materials table?

3.How about rectifier and thermostat, are these included in the engine cost? Or what is it listed as?

4.On the entries where I can choose "Student built" for example dry sump, if I choose to cost is as made, do I have to enter somewhere an entry saying student built or do I just put it as other made part?

5.Should we include dissembly labor if we do internal changes to the engine and only temporarily remove things or is it only for permanent removal?

Thank you,
Maria

[CFS_Maria]

Hi again

I have a few more questions http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

1. When do I have to use machine setup and install?

2. How does it work with continuous fed stock?

3. What if I drill holes in CNC, do I count it as machining together with the other material removal I do on that part or do I have to seperate it with Drilled holes even though I did it all at once in CNC?

Thanks!
Maria
Chalmers Formula Student

[Fabiola]

Hi Mr Riley,

Is it necessary to send our Cost Report by e-mail to someone? What e-mail would it be?
The hard copy you request to send by mail, is a printed copy plus a CD?

Tks,

Fabiola.

[CFS_Maria]

Hi Mr Riley,

More questions =)

1. If we have several layers in our body, two carbon fibre and one with linen, can we choose the entry "Fabric" for the linen even though we use is in the body or is it only for the head rest and so on?

Regards
Maria

[Essayee]

Hi Mr. Riley,

One more quick question. While putting the finishing touches on the report, one team member mentioned that since in the process multiplier table there isn't a line for "Fastener Engagement Length < 2D" they had just been costing such process as if it didn't have a multiplier. For clarity, should we create such a multiplier on our spreadsheets, and list the multiplier as 1 or something? Should we just leave multiplier and multiplier quantity blank?

Thanks again.

[lulehf]

Hi all!

Im trying to find my way around the cost report, and this might be silly questions for most of you guys, but I need a couple of things clarified to get going.

Now obviusly ive downloaded the BOM and the Excel templates, but im not totaly sure on how to use them.

The "Part" sheet is quite clear, I have a sheet for each part, and under material I fill in the raw material used and so on. However, do I need a "part" sheet for parts that I can get from the materials table, like ISR 22-048 calipers?

And how do I use the "assembly" sheet? I fill in the part cost that I get from the part sheets, but what do I fill in under materials? And where do I fill in labors? Also, should the fasterners that I use to attatch parts be filled in in the part or assembly sheet?

[WarwickRhi]

Lulehf:
I think in many cases it is open to interpretation. This is how I do it:
The assembly sheet is filled out to link together the parts from the parts sheets and the things you get from the materials table. So for a suspension system you may have the materials table springs and dampers in the materials section on an assembly sheet with the bell cranks as a part on a parts sheet linked in to your assembly. Then place any fasteners or joining processes for separate parts in the assembly sheet.
Labour is included in processes.
Hope that helps

[lulehf]

Thanks WarwickRhi!

Thats sounds logical, and thats pretty much similar to the way ive started. Hopefully judges will have some understanding, and as long the report is decently organized and understandable, theyll accept that its not done exactly as intended.

[Bill Riley]

WarwichRhi: Brake pads are cost using the volume of the pad and backing plate. Send us what you have on these processes including what you made, how, who did it, their contact email and phone. We tried to make the costs in the range of $0.01 to $10000. We can go to all mm next year if that is easier.

scottbob: If you send this as a rules clarification I can put it on the list for 2011. Can't do anything about it for 2010, as it's not fair at this point.

CFS_Maria: If it isn't specefied in the appendix you can pick. I would make a note in the system where you don't put it referring to the other. My gut is electronics. The judges split up the reports by expertise, so the electronics judge probably wants to see it. You will need an AIR for the motorcyle handle or you can cost as made this year. Rectifier and t-stat are included in the engine cost. Include the dry sump as a made component. It's for permanent removal. Internal changes are free (we wouldn't know and we don't want to encourage cheating). If you have a home made dry sump then you will need to remove the stock pan in the cost report. Use machine setup and install anytime you machine a part. Allocate the setup fee over the number of parts you can get from each stock piece. So an 8 foot length gives you 10 parts you can include 1/10 the setup fee. Holes drilled on CNC can be cost as the cheaper operation (or the more expensive http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ).

Fabiola: Electronic copy request is CD. If you want to email them to Kathleen McDonald so I can see them that would be great, but not requierd. I don't get the copies you mail the judges.

CFS_Maria: I would need to know more about the linen. You're truly using fabric in the body layup? You would have to send details as an AIR for me to know for sure, but since the deadline is here I might cost it as glass to be safe.

Essayee: Fastener engagement length > 2D is a process multiplier to be used on bolts.

lulehf: Tom, I think I've addressed this before, if you search the 2010 and 2009 forums. Read the appendix, it tells you which assemblies/parts to put where.

[Bill Riley]

I've posted the final materials table for the April 1 deadline. Anything missing you should estimate and fix in your addendum. If you submitted your AIR after the AIR deadline then you will have to include the surcharge for addendum items.

[Ani_V]

@ Mr. Bill Riley

Sir, how should we be costing the painting of the frame? Total area of the pipes into the unit of cost of brush apply ? As per our calculations, and the data given in the materials table, painting a frame is turning out to be costlier than making it !!

[Ani_V]

Sir, and what exactly is the fastener engagement length?

[Bone R]

Can some one please help me with the rules for handing in the cost report late or not at all. I found them last night, but can't find them now. Thanks.

[Bill Riley]

Try 'Aerosol Apply' it should be cheaper. Total surface area painted is the surface area used.

For information about the penalties on being late please consult the rules, section C3.15:

C3.15 Late Submission of Cost Report
It is imperative that the cost judges have the Cost Reports in enough time for proper evaluation.
Teams that submit reports late will be penalized 10 points per day late, with a maximum penalty of 80
points. Teams that do not submit a Cost Report will receive negative 100 points for the Cost &
Manufacturing Analysis score. Penalties will be applied based on official upload date and time for
electronic submission and by post mark for printed submissions.

[Bill Riley]

Ani_V: Let me modify my earlier response, Fastener engagement length is the length of threaded portion of the bolt that is engaged to the mating part. So the mating part may be a tapped hole or a nut. The length of the bolt threaded into the mating part is the engagement length.

[sbrenaman]

So what's the difference between turning in a blank report and not turning one in at all? I'm looking at the appendixes and it appears that you start with 80 points and lose them until you hit...... zero or negative numbers?

[Bill Riley]

The Event Captain would have to give you the details of what constitutes a report. The point is that not turning one in is worse than turning in one late. And we feel the cost event is an important educational component to the series and don't want teams to skip it.

[Raechel]

Last year I seem to remember emailing the electronic version of the cost report in addition to mailing a CD. However I couldn't find anything about that on the website or in the rules. Do we need to email someone this year, and if so what is the email address?

EDIT: never mind, just saw your response to someone else asking the same question!

[sbrenaman]

I completely agree with the educational importance of the cost report. We are a very very new team, and I'm just trying to best-utilize our resources. We are turning one in, but I doubt it's up to SAE standards. At this point, we're working on it mostly for internal purposes: so we can have a better idea of all of the funding necessary to produce a car, and so we can do better next year.

Can you speak to how the judging goes? It appears that you start with 80 points then lose points until you hit zero or negative numbers, which is where I'm a bit confused.

EDIT: I see that there are 3 sections to gain points in the report, and theoretically with a horrible report, you'd lose 80 points in Lowest Cost and Accuracy. Then, you can gain 20 points in the Event Day portion. However, I am still unsure if you cna lose more than 80 points in both the Lowest Cost and Accuracy portions. Hopefully someone can shed some light on it for me.

Thanks

[Fabiola]

Hi Mr Riley,

When and how the teams will be able to know about the California 2010 Cost "real case" scenario, so we can get prepared for it?

Tks,

Fabiola.

[Fabiola]

sbrenaman:

I can be totaly wrong, but here in Brazil, last year, the 3 parts of the Cost Event were:

1) analysis of the Report itself, to analyze if your report was ok with the rules
2) analysis of the car itself, to see if the way you described the processes of manufacturing in your report was compatible with what they were looking at in front of them
3) 'real case', where you present the challange they asked for a few days before the competition and you were supposed to convince them about the team's decisions while designing

and the score was: up to 40 points for part 1 (the cheapest car received 40 and the others' cars points was counted by comparison to it); up to 40 points for the 2 part; up to 20 points for the third part, but for this they had a list of what to analyse in your presentation and wich points to give

finaly, the rules says: up to -80 for late submition of the report (-10 per day late) and -100 if don't send it at all.

[Julia - Running Snail]

Hello Mr. Riley,

I have a few questions concerning which process to use when manufacturing gearing:

- I can’t find any process for gear shaping (with gear shape cutters).

- I`m not sure how to cost the milling of gears with hobs (spline hobs, worm hobs …). Because when using “mill – form cutting” you have to cost the “Linear distance of cutter motion.”; but I don’t know what this distance should be when using a hob. So maybe that’s the wrong process?

If there aren’t any processes listed yet, which cover these two problems, could you please add them before the Deadline for Silverstone?

Kind regards
Julia Schröder

[Julia - Running Snail]

Hello Mr. Riley,

could you please answer my question from April 12, 2010? Because the deadline for the Cost Report for Silverstone is on the 21.May.

There is also an AIR about a Master Cylinder that I made on 12/17/2009 and I don't have any answer yet.

Kind regards
Julia Schröder

[Bill Riley]

Julia, I added the master cylinder but with Formula SAE Michigan this week I may not get to the hobbing process before next week, as it requires more research.

[TBR]

Hello Mr. Riley

We have bought our "wheel centres" from one of the listed "wheel" suppliers in the materials table, but not the entire wheel and we are making the shell (different material to wheel centre) ourselves. Since there is a "Student Built" option, I assumed we could cost the entire wheel (3 piece) as made.

But referring to rule C3.12.5, is that the correct way to cost it?

Regards

[Tobias]

Hello,

do you still read the CR2009 Thread?

I posted some questions there 1-2 weeks ago because that thread is directly linked from fsaeonline.com.

Hope you can give me some answers to those soon.

Greetings
Tobias Seidel

Raceyard
UAS Kiel

[Toby87]

Hello Mr. Riley,

currently we´re finishing our Cost Report for FSG 2010.
I do not really understand how to use the formula of calculating the cost of Silicone Hoses: the formula in the Materials Table the cost of "Hose, Silicone" is [C1]*[Size1]*[Size2]. Size2 is named as 'meter', but the result should be a price per meter. Or is this a mistake in the formula?
Hope it´s not too late...

Thank You very much!

Best regards,
Tobias Keim
UAS Schweinfurt

[bryan255]

Hi all,

I am working on the cost report for the FSAEA competition.

I have read all the posts people have made but just want to make this crystal clear for myself and anyone else if there is still any confusion.

I just want to check that the creation of parts on the ebom is ok and see if my methodology is similar to what other teams are doing.

For example, with the rear roll hoop, I thought it might make more sense to create an assembly which was called rear roll hoop assembly.

This assembly would contain the roll hoop and other parts like seat belt loops, control arm attachments, roll hoop brackets etc each with their own FCA input part sheet.

The rear roll hoop assembly FCA page would show the welding etc to attach those parts to the rear roll hoop.

This rear roll hoop assembly is a sub assembly for the rear chassis, which is a sub assembly for the entire chassis of the car.

Is this too confusing by creating so many assemblies? Is this the methodology that many other teams out their use?

Cheers

[Thrainer]

Hi,

we are in the process of finishing our CR for FSE. As mentioned on the FSE and FSG website, the CR committee is working on the new AIRs, among them all electric motors, controllers and further FSE-specific parts.

What I was surprised about, that some AIRs from 2009 are still not in the Materials table, even though they were commented. For example "computer fan" for 5$ from 6/9/2009 4:48:24 and "Gas-Filled shock absorber" for roughly 14$ from 5/15/2009 10:17:43. Is it possible to add them this year?

Best regards,
Thomas

[Fabiola Gradela]

Hi Mr Riley

I'd like to know which cases should we use the 'assemble' process.

Best regards,

Fabiola.

[Fabiola Gradela]

Hi Mr Riley,

About carbon fiber and glass fiber.. the weight of material is costed with the finished part weight or with the amout of ply utilized to build the part?

Tks,

Fabiola.

[Fabiola Gradela]

Hi everyone,

About the accusump on the materials table, they ask for a 'size' to calculate the value of the item per liter, but at the comments there is no mention about what should be this size.
Could anyone help me?

Tks,

Fabiola

[Thrainer]

Originally posted by Thrainer:
Hi,

we are in the process of finishing our CR for FSE. As mentioned on the FSE and FSG website, the CR committee is working on the new AIRs, among them all electric motors, controllers and further FSE-specific parts.

What I was surprised about, that some AIRs from 2009 are still not in the Materials table, even though they were commented. For example "computer fan" for 5$ from 6/9/2009 4:48:24 and "Gas-Filled shock absorber" for roughly 14$ from 5/15/2009 10:17:43. Is it possible to add them this year?

Best regards,
Thomas

FSG, FSE and FS Austria are history, but still no updated Materials tables on the official website.

There are also the Italian and Australian events later this year, so even if you are switching to sustainability reports for all classes for 2011 (which I would highly recommend), it would still be nice to have the AIRs processed now.

The Cost event was the biggest disappointment for me this year. At FSE, judging the vehicle cost should have been cancelled completely.

[Tobias]

Actually I liked the Hockenheim Cost-Event. You could get 80 points through the discussion and realcase which would have earned you a 13th place, even if you have the most expensive car.
With a average priced Car you could easily have made 2nd place. For example: Amberg UAS cost: 2,96 discussion:40 realcase:40 score:82,96 place:5.
I don't see why an unprocessed AIR is that big a problem to you. As long as your AIR is unprocessed you can choose the price for the item yourself. If it is processed last minute you put it in the Addendum, with no penalty.
Just keep in mind, those guys still have jobs to do and have to do all the FS work in their holidays.
Then if you have suggestions to improve the Event maybe you could elaborate a bit more and not just say: This was bad, cancel it.

[Francis Gagné]

I know this is a bit off topic but I feel this is the best place to get an accurate answer.

In the 2011 Rules article C3.24 talks about the Cost Application.
Our team as developed this summer it's own Access application for creating the cost report. The rules and website doesn't stipulate for now in which format the cost must be submitted.

We want to attend MIS2011, will the Excel Spreadsheets still be accepted for the electronic submission of the cost report?

Best Regards,

[Bill Riley]

For Michigan/California in 2011 you can use Excel or your own software.

[Bill Riley]

The international AIR's is an area where we could improve and we could use some help, so if you thought the event could be improved and have specefic suggetions of how to fix them, including volunteering to help process the AIR's please contact me through the forum or email katklauz@aol.com and we will put you on the Cost Team. We have a real shortage of volunteers for this aspect of the event.

[MarkE]

Hi,

I have a question about the parts / assemblies sheets we are using in excel.
I would like to add another level to our report. That of 'sub-assembly'.
This would enable our cost report to make a lot more sense.

eg. I would like to be able to have 'Front Suspension Mechanism' as an Assembly, and Bellcranks, pushrods, Anti Roll Bars as 'Sub-Assemblies' and then use the parts list for items that are assembled within the sub-assembly.

Part prices would feed into the sub-assembly sheet and sub assembly prices would feed into the assembly sheet.

Is such a structure acceptable within the rules?

[MarkE]

Hi Bill,
Another question.
Is it necessary to have area and length columns in the materials section of our reports, or is it acceptable to have volume instead? i.e. do we need to have that level of detail?

[Cazz226]

I have a very basic question that other teams should be able to answer;

How much detail do you break your parts down into?
For example on a dashboard do you have a part for each switch/LED/etc. or do you put the whole dashboard in as a part. Another example is the wiring harness where we've tended the have 'sub-harnesses' as parts that include connectors, wire, mounting, etc.

[MarkE]

Hi Bill,

It's been over 2 weeks since I posted my first question... Is this forum still active? The FSAEA (Australia) cost report is due on the 15 October (2 Months before the actual competition). If this forum is no longer active can you please advise me where I can go to get answers to questions I might have.

Another question. Do you intend to update Appendix C1 through C4 and the tables to reflect changes that have occurred in the rules over the past year...? For example roughing cuts and finishing cuts are still mentioned in the appendices as are references to 'official density tables'.

Given the tremendous amount of work teams have to endure to produce the cost report I think it is only fair that the information you provide is accurate and regularly updated. It is an unfair expectation that students read through hundreds of forum comments to get basic answers to ambiguously worded rules and table 'comments'.

Another question.. why is laser cutting steel more expensive than saw cutting? In a mass production scenario are you suggesting that it is cheaper to get 40 tabs by hand than with one laser cutting setup?

I would greatly appreciate a response.

Thankyou

[Thrainer]

What do you guys think about the possible rule change 2012 to appoint 80 points to the adjusted cost and 20 points to the report?

I believe it's better as FSG did, to give only 20 points for the cost. Because some teams are "optimizing" (some call it cheating) a lot and it's too much work to review everything, I believe the adjusted cost part of the event is not fair.

From my point of view, it would be best to replace the cost event with the sustainability event all together. It's much simpler to write and inspect, and it's more useful to the team. There, you only have different raw material, which is a much shorter list than all the parts in the CR with never-ending AIRs.


Originally posted by Tobias:
... As long as your AIR is unprocessed you can choose the price for the item yourself. ...
I don't think it's the intent to have motors for 1$, controllers for 1$, battery management system for 1$ etc.

Regards,
Thomas

[Chris Craig]

As the event is labelled 'Cost Event' I disagree. Decision's in design always should consider cost and manufacturing, if you choose to use a carbon fibre tub and various other expensive parts (Motec Dash for example) then you choose that at the expense of an increase in the vehicle cost, therefore a small hit in cost due to it only being worth 20% of the mark is unfair.

The judges aren't stupid. They see many cost reports and they can easily see when you are beginning to cut corners and will flag it up during judging. At a quick glance they know roughly how much each system will cost, what parts need to be included, how much material is required to manufacture a diff housing etc.

Increasing the points to 80 however does seem extreme. I think that 50 points for adjusted cost, 30 points for inspection and justification, and 20 points for deep dive would be more representative.

With increasing need for sustainability too then this should also be incorporated into Cost, most likely under the justification points

[Bill Riley]

Mark E: I do read this forum but as always official questions (with usually quicker responses) should be sent to your regional person who forwards cost questions to me. For the US this would be katklauz@aol.com. The rules, Excel sheets and software aren't setup for sub-assemblies. If you ask your regional cost captain they may allow you to do this. That is really up to them. My recommendation is to make each sub assembly an assembly if you want and just have more assemblies. It isn't necessary to have length and area columns but it is necessary to provide enough information to support your report, so if you attach a drawing of a push rod and list the volume in Excel there is no issue there since the judges could confirm the dimensions. I will be updating the Appendices shortly, hopefully the end of this upcoming weekend. The laser cutting costs were established a while back and I admit are too high. They'll be adjusted for the next season. You can use the lower manual process of course and save money in the mean time.

[BMH]

Hello, our team has been inactive so to speak since 2008. So we are currently trying to learn more about the cost report format and software. While trying to get our cost report setup, we were trying to put our school name in, but it was not on the list. Is that something that can be added in on our end, or does someone in charge of the software have to put it in?

Thanks!

[Bill Riley]

The software is being converted from a stand-alone application to a web-based system. As such, for the US competitions in 2011 you should use the Excel templates posted online or your own system for doing the cost report.

[BMH]

Originally posted by Bill Riley:
The software is being converted from a stand-alone application to a web-based system. As such, for the US competitions in 2011 you should use the Excel templates posted online or your own system for doing the cost report.

Alright, We will do that. Thank you.

[MarkE]

Hi Bill.

1. Our University (Melbourne University) has submitted an AIR for 'vacuum forming' to make our nose cone and side pods. This was submitted more than a week ago but we haven't received a response from our regional contacts. What process would you recommend to use as an equivalent? What should we do if we don't get a reply?


2. Just noticed that your eBOM does not tally overall Material, Process, Fastener, and Tooling costs correctly, (because it neglects to consider quantities of assemblies and parts).
Should we manually amend this so that our total Materials, Process, Fastener and Tooling costs reflect these quantities (and add up to the total for each section), or should we just leave it as is?

[Bill Riley]

MarkE, yes please ammend the BOM so it tallies correctly. You could use one of the laminate cure options for vacuum forming since it's essentialy the same thing if the AIR isn't processed in time.

[benny41]

I know its late for the aussie comp but....

What process has everyone used for cutting splines and gear cutting? Is it just Machining?

It looks to me as the excel tables certainly need some processes and items added.

I am also sick of converting units

Anyway iv let out some steam so ill get back to it.

[Bill Riley]

You can use 'Gear Shaping (hobbing)' or 'Mill - Form Cutter'.

[Kirby]

Originally posted by Bill Riley:
You can use 'Gear Shaping (hobbing)' or 'Mill - Form Cutter'.

We used Mill-Form Cutter if I recall.

Gear Shaping (hobbing), does not appear on the excel process table we are using from fsaeonline?!?

[Francis Gagné]

Hi,

I have searched on the forum and in the cost report appendix but have found nothing.

I was wondering the appropriate use of the "Hand - Start only" process.

My understanding is that is only needed when we put a bolt or nut in place by hand before using another tool. But when using a screwdriver/socket ratchet or other tools that does not need the fastener already sitting on the threads we would not need it.

I have missed the point?


In a second order,

We use the Mill Form - Cutter process to make splines, we were wondering if the length needs to represent the process.

For exemple, we have a steel shaft with 24 x 2.15 cm splines.

We are costing
51.6cm
x 0.10$/cm (Mill Form-cutter)
x 3 (Steel multiplier)

it adds up to 15.48$ which seems pretty pricey. Is that alright.

Thank you,

[AvinashJagtap]

Originally posted by theloyal:
Hi, we are first year team and have a plan to participate in FSAE Australia this year.
i want to ask that cost table for materials, tollings and fasteners that are posted in the website were originally posted at 28 November 2010 and now prices of some parts have increased. like we want to purchase Damper that are given in table have 125$ unit price whereas we found that damper of 175$. Then we are surely going to loose marks in cost, so what should i do now in this scenario..??
Regards

The event officials dont care about what price you paid for a particular component.
Some teams get it for free and some pay twice or more for the same.
You only have to use the cost mentioned in the table for cost reporting, not to mention everybody knows that table is old but you have to use it.
You can keep a track on fsaeonline.com for updates in table if any.

[AvinashJagtap]

Some imp qustions

1)Do we need to submit only the eBOM this year??
i.e. the 3sheets (cost summary, BOM, Revision log)

2) I have heard about teams have reports containing 500-600 sheets. So how do they email so many pages?

3) what to fill in Revision log??
please guide.

[Tickers]

I have a quick question about the Cost event, but didn't really deem it worthy of starting a new thread.

Is "Wire, Power" intended to apply only to battery/alternator/fuse/etc wiring, or should it be used even for the 5V/GND supply for each sensor? Sensors draw very little current, so they're hardly "power" wires when compared to the larger wires.

[Bill Riley]

There are also entries for control and signal lines which would be more appropriate for your case.

[Eric_W]

Hey Everyone,

I am just looking to clarify the tooling options for the Cost Report. Last year at FSAE California our team got docked quite a bit for not including a composite tooling device for our composite parts. When looking at the tooling tables there are four options for lamination which are costed based on the surface area of the tool used.

I'm just wondering to as what this is referring to for tooling? I'm thinking that this might be referring to the mold used for making the final part, but I'm not sure if this is right.

Last year I costed the molds using the material and process required to make the molds. Then we costed the lay up process and cost of material and finishing and what not. I am just confused as to what tooling we are required to have included in the cost report. Anyone else have a similar issue?

Cheers,

Eric W
UVic Formula SAE

[Bill Riley]

It's simpler than you are making it. Just pick the tooling options out of the tooling table to go with the parts you are making. The process tables tell you which processes require tooling so there is no judgement call required.

[Jane Kim]

HI http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I can't understand about Fuse control, Fuse signal and Fuse power.

how select the word right?

and i think that fuel pump is fuse signal.
and fan is fuse power.

is it right?

help me please http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Bill Riley]

Reference Rule C8. Both fan and fuel pump are power lines.

[Jane Kim]

Thank you Mr,Bill Riley.
I have one more question.
I have many problem because of Adapter and Fitting.
I search them on google.
but that is same picture and explanation when i search Adapter and Fitting.
how can I distinguish Adapter from Fitting?

and They have only Aluminum or Steel material.
but i use brass fitting.
so i can't write BOM. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

last, I request some material on View eAIR Master Table & Committee Decision.
but judge didn't answer to me.
How can i do?