Best FSAE uni

[skuty]

This year I´m going to finish high school and I want to study university. Please tell me what is the best school in FSAE in Europe for suspension designers with chance to get into F1 in several years.
Thanks

[skuty]

This year I´m going to finish high school and I want to study university. Please tell me what is the best school in FSAE in Europe for suspension designers with chance to get into F1 in several years.
Thanks

[exFSAE]

Oh boy.. where to begin.. a couple comments and suggestions I highly recommend you consider:

Go to uni with the intent of getting an education. Don't go to uni with the intent of becoming a specialized F1 designer. Just a bad plan.

Your life outlook will change between high school and uni. It will change again when you graduate. You may wind up hating suspension design, especially after fucking around for hours trying to get bellcrank geometry to work out. You may wind up hating working in motorsport with high expectations, tight deadlines, and absurd work hours. You may even hate engineering in general!

Start BROAD, and you can narrow focus when you know what you want to do. Chances are you won't be diving straight into F1 with a BSc degree, and will take some more specialized education or work experience later anyway.

Furthermore, at the undergraduate level, the program you go into isn't very critical so long as its accredited and somewhat legitimate. It's more about what YOU pull out of it than anything, and the name you make for yourself. I went to a school with a poor FSAE program and work in pro motorsport anyway.

Go scout out universities with pretty decent engineering programs.. that happen to have any sort of FSAE team.. and my recommendation would be to pick the one with the best quality of life. You're going to be living there 4+ years, you should enjoy it.

[flavorPacket]

This is good advice. I'd like to echo exFSAE in saying that F1 teams RARELY hire people straight out of school to do real design work. Every now and then a really talented CFD engineer will make it, but otherwise they are looking for someone they don't have to train at all.

In my opinion, the best team to join is the one that allows you to make a difference. For this reason I would avoid the Delfts and Stuttgarts because you will be one of 100 people. You can make a bigger difference and are more likely to have more responsibility by being one of 10 people somewhere else.

[Zac]

Another thing to keep in mind is that when you're done with FSAE and looking for a job, the final competition results don't really matter that much. Employers care a lot more about your experiences, the skills you've developed, what you've learned, and what kind of an impact you've had than whether or not your team won the competition.

[Adambomb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by flavorPacket:
In my opinion, the best team to join is the one that allows you to make a difference. For this reason I would avoid the Delfts and Stuttgarts because you will be one of 100 people. You can make a bigger difference and are more likely to have more responsibility by being one of 10 people somewhere else. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Haha, we were joking about this at competition last year. I'm chief engineer at ISU, but if I were at UAS or TU Graz I would probably be like chief engineer of the clutch lever or something like that. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[kapps]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by flavorPacket:
In my opinion, the best team to join is the one that allows you to make a difference. For this reason I would avoid the Delfts and Stuttgarts because you will be one of 100 people. You can make a bigger difference and are more likely to have more responsibility by being one of 10 people somewhere else. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

x1000

There has yet to be a device invented that can measure my difference to this statement. You want to go to a university where you are free to learn and grow into a position. Smaller FSAE programs need people to take over large parts of the car because there are only a few guys on the team who are capable of doing such design. You will also learn about more aspects of the car on a small team. When looking for a job (wherever you apply), the employer will more likely to be impressed by designing a larger system.

[bob.paasch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kapps:
Smaller FSAE programs need people to take over large parts of the car because there are only a few guys on the team who are capable of doing such design. You will also learn about more aspects of the car on a small team. When looking for a job (wherever you apply), the employer will more likely to be impressed by designing a larger system. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't buy that smaller programs necessarily provide a better experience. Larger teams require more and better project management, including structured design methods, project scheduling and coordination. Team members on larger teams have to interact and communicate with more people, there's the opportunity to go deep into the analysis and testing of a smaller sub-system, and there are more opportunities for design group leadership. All of these will impress potential employers as well.

Large global teams add distributed design, manufacturing and supply chain management aspects, similar to the way products are produced by large multinational companies today. More on that in about a month...

[flavorPacket]

Bob, I'm not so sure being Cornell's fuel rail group leader is as impressive or as substantial as you make it out to be.

I must reject that there is more communication on a larger team: on the contrary, larger teams only have communication between system leaders, and those within the chassis group or drivetrain group just work together without understanding system integration.

And regarding project management, what's the point of having such sophisticated administration for a bunch of 20 yr olds? Nobody will hire a project manager right out of school. It is better to focus on developing fundamental engineering and communication skills.

In addition, some of the most sophisticated analysis techniques presented in the design event have come from smaller teams. You don't have to be TUG or Delft to do something in depth, you just have to have the motivation.

[D Collins Jr]

I don't think that anyone has said this yet, and I think that someone should. If you know that you want to do FSAE while you are in school, then look for a school that WANTS to have a team around. If you spend alot of your racecar time fighting school administration to exist, then you're not designing/building/driving. I would say, look for a team that has been around for a few years, and is in the school's good graces.

And as a closing remark, be humble when you join a team. I've been doing this for four years now, and I know nowhere near everything that I need to do. Motivation and desire are good starting points, but there's always something more to learn.

[scott_rfr]

Large teams and small teams both have their strengths and weaknesses. Yes being on a TUG or a Delft you might learn things like Bob stated with supply chain management, etc. When I talked to a member of TUG last year they had some interesting ways they manufactured the car. At the same time here at Rutgers we are very small like most others teams. It nice learning to do a lot with little resources and little budget.

Both teams are great like others said it's all what you make of it. Get involved, work on a project, pick up a bunch of new skills and learn to market that to your employer. Being on a team with 100k+ budget and 50+ members or being on a team with 30k budget and 10 members will impress employers, it's just how you market it to them.

Scott
Rutgers SAE

[exFSAE]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by D Collins Jr:
If you know that you want to do FSAE while you are in school, then look for a school that WANTS to have a team around. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

...there are more than zero?

[kapps]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by exFSAE:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by D Collins Jr:
If you know that you want to do FSAE while you are in school, then look for a school that WANTS to have a team around. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

...there are more than zero? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aww, you beat me to it http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[flavorPacket]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by exFSAE:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by D Collins Jr:
If you know that you want to do FSAE while you are in school, then look for a school that WANTS to have a team around. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

...there are more than zero? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As team leader, the MOST important thing I learned how to do was convince people to do something they were originally completely opposed to. 70% of these people were inside my school administration.

[mumbles]

Skute,

I think what you will find in all of these responses is that there is no best school for FSAE. FSAE is whatever you make of it. You get out what you put in. The University is (most likely) not going to offer a course to make you an F1 engineer or any race engineer for that matter. You will get an education in engineering and it will be up to you to apply it to something, like a formula SAE vehicle.

If though, you just want to be along for the ride on a winning team then I would suggest going through the results from the past couple years and choosing one with a good win/loss ratio.

[Adambomb]

I'd say the most important thing is simply that they have an established team that at least takes a car to competition every year. Trying to start or rebuild a dead team is an incredible uphill battle, and if you don't have anyone else with experience or drive, or worse yet not even some sort of baseline design, facilities, etc., it can be a long time before you will likely reap the rewards.

As for big team or small team, it's true, they both have their advantages and disadvantages. What really counts is what you put into it. In the end everyone still goes through the same process of being overworked, harassed by the university, yet happy because of all they have learned, the friends they made, the advantages when it comes time to find a job, and of course, driving the car.

[ben]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by skuty:
This year I´m going to finish high school and I want to study university. Please tell me what is the best school in FSAE in Europe for suspension designers with chance to get into F1 in several years.
Thanks </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would agree with much of what exFSAE's written. Specifically the part about the way you will change as a person through university.

On a more specific point - when you say "suspension designer" do you mean purely mechanical design? In that case it's a transferable skill. If you want to be involved in things like spring and bar settings, roll centre heights, etc the vehicle dynamics or performance engineers have more influence on that.

My advice would be go to uni and do mechanical engineering (I'd steer clear of Motorsport and even Automotive courses as a first degree) because if global motorsport contracts significantly in the coming decade (a distinct possibility sadly) you don't want to be pigeon-holed.

If you do mech and try and steer your work experience towards motorsport and do FSAE you're in a good position to then do a post-grad course in motorsport generally (Cranfield) or aero (Southampton, Imperial) or go straight into motorsport if you've networked well enough as an undergrad.

I certainly didn't go into uni desparately wanting to be a tyre designer, but it's worked out pretty well so far.

Ben

[Thomas MuWe]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Haha, we were joking about this at competition last year. I'm chief engineer at ISU, but if I were at UAS or TU Graz I would probably be like chief engineer of the clutch lever or something like that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Adambomb, but I have to destroy your picture of the FS World in Graz. I do not want to complain, but you have to understand that we and also TUG need every motivated and skilled person we can get. That is the point. For our 450 supercharged just 2 people were responsible for the design (piston, supercharger drive, etc.). If you would be in the team you can take over a lot of responsibily and not just design the clutch lever.
For MIS 09 TUG and we were together 30 people. When we tested together in Graz we were often just 10 people in total for 2 cars.
And having at least 30 people on a picture at the roll out party does not necessarly means that 30+ people working for the car!


quote:
Originally posted by D Collins Jr:
If you know that you want to do FSAE while you are in school, then look for a school that WANTS to have a team around.

...there are more than zero?


Sorry exFSAE, but there are more than zero! :-)
In Germany and Austria there are some of them.

@skuty:

There is no clear rule for choosing a university that suits best for you. Some people are better in a small team and they know that they are needed there and have a lot of responsibility and overview of the whole project, some want to go into detail and work things out in a very scientific way and analyse everything precisely.
At the end something counts most during your FSAE-time. Try to enjoy what you are able to do. It is a funny time and you can meet people from different countries and different cultures. That is an extraordinay experience. And maybe after your FS-time you will see that F1 is nothing else than a lot of work with a lot of people trying to make career and be the new Adrian Newey. In contrast to FSAE, in Formula 1 is no space for mistakes.

Just my 2 cents.

Best regards from Graz and happy new year,

Thomas

suspension jr08 / jr08evo
joanneum racing graz

[Trevor]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by flavorPacket:
Bob, I'm not so sure being Cornell's fuel rail group leader is as impressive or as substantial as you make it out to be.

I must reject that there is more communication on a larger team: on the contrary, larger teams only have communication between system leaders, and those within the chassis group or drivetrain group just work together without understanding system integration.

And regarding project management, what's the point of having such sophisticated administration for a bunch of 20 yr olds? Nobody will hire a project manager right out of school. It is better to focus on developing fundamental engineering and communication skills.

In addition, some of the most sophisticated analysis techniques presented in the design event have come from smaller teams. You don't have to be TUG or Delft to do something in depth, you just have to have the motivation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no reason 20 year olds can't learn the fundamentals of engineering and develop strong communication skills with simultaneously learning to work well in a large organization. Whether we like it or not, in 90% of industry jobs we won't be working in small, close knit teams like FSAE. We need to know how to both focus on our system as well as understand the complete racecar. Even if you're only designing the fuel rail, you better know how your part contributes to the overall goal of the vehicle, as this is the basis for your design goals.

As for project management, I think that those who have been leaders themselves know better than anyone what it takes to be effective as both a leader and a follower or subordinate. Companies want to hire these people. Think about it. Who wouldn’t want a Formula SAE team made up of only Stuttgart, TU Graz, or RMIT’s team leads?

[flavorPacket]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trevor:
As for project management, I think that those who have been leaders themselves know better than anyone what it takes to be effective as both a leader and a follower or subordinate. Companies want to hire these people. Think about it. Who wouldn’t want a Formula SAE team made up of only Stuttgart, TU Graz, or RMIT’s team leads? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a former team leader, I agree that I know how to be more effective because I have that experience. I also know that I didn't even touch CAD, FEA, or CFD for almost 18 months because I was running the show.

And no, I would not want a team of only top team leaders. A room full of generals does not win a war.

[kapps]

I guess everyone's opinions are limited due to the fact that most (all?) of us go to a school and stay there. If it's a small team or large team, we work with that we got. I joined a small team, and even worse, we hadn't had a car at competition for a few years. Myself and a few others built the team back up and are now handing it off to a new group of guys who have the opportunities to do things that we never thought of.

The project management vs. doing 'real' engineering argument will always be here similar to the monocoque vs. spaceframe or (maybe more comparable) team-built spaceframe vs. company-built spaceframe. I personally believe I was able to get a much more broad experience in a small team. By the time I had graduated, I was able to take on a project, design and model it, FEM it and obtain safety factors, CAM it, and then take it into the machine shop on either manual mill/lathe or CNC and produce it. I have no idea if a team leader from the above teams could do such a thing (or even many team members). I also helped in suspension and led the chassis design effort.

When I was looking for a job, I knew that I wanted to find something with a variety similar to what I found in SAE. I actually ended up in a large company. When I interviewed, they were very impressed with my activities in SAE and my interest to learn new things. I think anyone who is very involved in an SAE team will be pretty good with project management just from being around it for so long.

[bob.paasch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kapps:
I guess everyone's opinions are limited due to the fact that most (all?) of us go to a school and stay there. If it's a small team or large team, we work with that we got. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My experience is different from most on this forum. I've been faculty advisor of Formula and Baja at Oregon State since 1999. We've had small teams, large teams, winning teams and not so successful teams. As a professor, I'm probably more focused on the educational aspect than most students. I am a very strong advocate for Formula and Baja as part of an engineering curriculum. I've seen time and time again how participation on one of these teams can be a life-changing experience for students, no matter whether the team is large, small, winning or not.

I would echo David Collins' advise, make sure the team has the support of the university administration. We have it here at OSU, but it took us a long time to build it. This can be a very difficult battle for students to fight, to be taken seriously, to be seen as an integral part of the university's educational mission. I admire the student teams that take up this fight alone, but it makes their job about 5x more difficult.

[Michael Royce]

Bob,
Amen to both of your points.

Speaking as someone who was in industry for 40 years, and who hired a significant number of engineers over the years, with Baja and Formula, it was not whether the student's school had "won" or how high they placed, but just the fact that they had been through the experience was what counted and got their application from "pile 1" to "pile 2". Being an active, participating member of a team shows a willingness to make a commitment, and that you should have learned some of the leadership and teamwork skills that a prof cannot teach in the classroom. Having been through the Baja or Formula experience is what counts to a prospective employer. Winning is great, but the learning comes from the journey, fighting the battles and getting the car to the competition.

I have said on many occasions that the value of FSAE or Baja to each student is proportional to the amount of effort he or she has put into it.

[Charlie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by flavorPacket:
Bob, I'm not so sure being Cornell's fuel rail group leader is as impressive or as substantial as you make it out to be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure that massive exaggeration helps make your point.

It's a trade off.

A small team will give more opportunity to an individual. You may be able to get real responsibility in your first one or two years. You will have more impact on the design if you are part of a smaller group.

A large team simply does more than a small team. A large team can take design details that a smaller team can't analyze fully. So if you want to specialize in an area, it may be better for you.

It just depends on what you're after. If you want to say 'I designed this entire suspension myself' than a small team is for you. If you want to say 'I was part of a group that designed and developed an active suspension system using vehicle simulation and data analysis tools' then a small team might not offer you the time to pursue these goals.

Both experiences are good, but something to keep in mind is that most entry level positions in motorsport are looking for young engineers with software/simulation/data analysis skills in current software packages. Not group leaders.

[Yellow Ranger]

You guys got this all wrong. Obviously, if you want to go to a school with an FSAE team, then find the team with the most females, cause that'll be the next closest thing to a social life you'll have for the next 4 years! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But seriously though, I had no idea fsae even existed going into college, and I started a race team in High School! So it shows you have initiative meaning you'll probably do well where ever you go. Go to all the schools and ask to visit with the team, not the advisor, or the Captain, the Team itself. Know as much about all your options as possible!
initiative meaning you'll probably do well where ever you go.

[RollingCamel]

Do you have deep pockets...? If so you are welcome. j/k

[flavorPacket]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Charlie:
I'm not sure that massive exaggeration helps make your point. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not an exaggeration. I personally met someone on their team who claimed to be in charge of the fuel rail.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Charlie:
Both experiences are good, but something to keep in mind is that most entry level positions in motorsport are looking for young engineers with software/simulation/data analysis skills in current software packages. Not group leaders.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you for explaining my point in much clearer terms.

[woodsy96]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Yellow Ranger:
You guys got this all wrong. Obviously, if you want to go to a school with an FSAE team, then find the team with the most females, cause that'll be the next closest thing to a social life you'll have for the next 4 years! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Definitely this one.