Custom Camshafts

[Turns]

Hey,

I'm trying to get some custom camshafts made but can't find anyone who can do it Australia. Has anyone got any camshafts made here? Even the USA could be an option since the dollar's fairly high. I'm guessing there are at least some palces over there will do them at a reasonable price?
They would be made to our specs and would be for a Honda CBR600RR '05.

Cheers.

[Gaanja]

I think Wade Cams are based somewhere in Victoria.... Their contact details are listed on the website

[Warpspeed]

+1
Wades are the number one cam grinder in Melbourne.

[Turns]

Yeah i've tried wade, they can't make anything custom, only if they already have a profile available. Of cource they dont have anything since no bike owners want smaller cams. There must be somewhere in the world that can do it for a reasonable price.

[Warpspeed]

I am totally stunned, Wades have been grinding every imaginable type of cam for over fifty years.

If it is for something really odd like a Crower Six Stroke Engine, then I can understand how the guys at Wade might totally freak out.

[welder]

Kelford's in NZ might be a possibility and have a very good rep. Tighe up in Qld used to do (still?) the local team Suzuki cams, although have heard a few mutterings since the old man retired.

[KustomizingKid]

Cams can't be that expensive to ship if you have too... although I am very surprised that you can't find someone to grind the cams, its not really that exotic of a process...

[Tom Wettenhall]

Where's Boffin at? He might know someone who can do it.

[penna]

try tighe cams in brisbane, if you give them the stock cam they can regrind it for you

[ecstatic]

Originally posted by Turns:
Yeah i've tried wade, they can't make anything custom, only if they already have a profile available. Of cource they dont have anything since no bike owners want smaller cams. There must be somewhere in the world that can do it for a reasonable price.

I want smaller cams, I have bigger cams, if only there was some sort of machining that would turn big bits of metal into smaller bits.

Yes I know you won't be able to get the EXACT cam you want if you have to grind the original down, however if you think about what you really want out of a custom camshaft it's pretty obvious for our case that a grind job will work. A grind of the original cam with 10-15 degrees of duration taken out both would do wonderful things to your lower end. If obtaining a profile/pattern is the problem, ask Wade for the measurements of their grinder linkages, make your own profile on a CNC mill to match the grinding machine.

Suddenly you've got your own custom set of cams and a really cool story to tell the design judges how you made your own cams while using the resources at your disposal.

[Turns]

Well you wouldn't think it would be that hard to grind down something smaller but apparantly they have to have a 'master' profile to do this. These are supposedly very expensive so not realy for a one off grind. But thats only one particular cam grinding machine i think there are other types that don't need a master...

I'll try tighe cams and see what they can do.

[ecstatic]

Yep they are very expensive as they require lots of dyno hours and wear testing to produce a cam that won't wreck peoples heads.

Or you could produce your own master on a CNC lathe/mill for a few hours of machining time and many hours of design and analysis time.

Cams cost a lot because the good ones are like a finely tuned engine map, takes a lot of time develop but cheap and easy to copy.

[Simon Dingle]

What exactly is a master cam? Is it a data set describing the cam profile or is a physical cam that is copied during the manufacturing process?

I know it's a long way to ship, but Piper Cams are very good and provide grinding services for a lot of the UK teams.

They have a few standard FSAE profiles that they will do (around £150 for a regrind if I recall correctly) or will grind to a specified cam profile if you can provide the cam profile data.

One year I think they even did a cam for us based on the highly detailed data of "like this one but scaled to 70% lift and 70% duration".

[Mbirt]

Originally posted by Simon Dingle:
What exactly is a master cam? Is it a data set describing the cam profile or is a physical cam that is copied during the manufacturing process?

I know it's a long way to ship, but Piper Cams are very good and provide grinding services for a lot of the UK teams.

They have a few standard FSAE profiles that they will do (around £150 for a regrind if I recall correctly) or will grind to a specified cam profile if you can provide the cam profile data.

One year I think they even did a cam for us based on the highly detailed data of "like this one but scaled to 70% lift and 70% duration". For Web cams in the US, it is a physical lobe profile that is copied.

[Warpspeed]

Originally posted by Simon Dingle:
What exactly is a master cam?

It is a physical reference cam lobe that you fit onto the end of the cam grinding machine.
The master cam revolves along with the cam shaft you are grinding.

A reciprocating follower follows the contour of the master cam lobe, and the grinding wheel moves radially in and out, to exactly copy the master cam outside profile onto the cam being ground.

The master cam is just one lobe, usually quite large, a metal disc maybe three or four inches in diameter.

After each lobe has been ground, the master cam position is re indexed on the cam grinding machine to a different position, to correctly set the angular position to grind the next lobe.

Grinding a cam is a complex job that requires very specialized equipment.
If you request a very specific cam profile for which the cam grinder has no suitable master cam, he simply cannot do the job.

[Tom Wettenhall]

So the master cam has exactly the same shape as the cam being ground but is larger? If that's the case, could you CNC a master cam for your chosen grind and provide that to the grinder?

[Warpspeed]

Originally posted by Tom Wettenhall:
So the master cam has exactly the same shape as the cam being ground but is larger? If that's the case, could you CNC a master cam for your chosen grind and provide that to the grinder?

I don't see any practical reason why not.

You would need to get some design details for basic dimensions, so that it would fit the particular cam grinding machine.
The outside profile is then entirely up to you.

I am sure a friendly cam grinderwould be prepared to do it, but probably without offering any guarantee of the results...

[ecstatic]

Originally posted by Tom Wettenhall:
So the master cam has exactly the same shape as the cam being ground but is larger? If that's the case, could you CNC a master cam for your chosen grind and provide that to the grinder?

Sometimes, other times the ratio of the linkages on the grinding machine needs to be taken into account. If the motion ratio isn't 1:1 you need to take into account the transfer function of the linkages on the final cam grind.

[Warpspeed]

It is all part of having some dimensions and specifications for the required master cam to suit the particular grinding machine.

On better machines, the motion linkage has an adjustable ratio that will let you change the lift value at the grinding wheel.

Other factors to consider are the radius of the master cam follower on the machine, and the radius of the grinding wheel.
These need to be taken into account, otherwise the final cam will not end up having the required profile.

All this also depends on the type of cam follower to be used in the engine. Is the face going to be flat or convex ?

Is the cam follower in the engine required to rotate? If so, then the cam face will not be square but raised very slightly on one side.
That is achieved by accurately dressing the grinding wheel at the required very small angle.

Even if you have a suitable cam master, setting up and using a cam grinding machine is a very highly specialized operation.
And you need to work out all the details before you can even begin to design your master cam. It is all going to be a very complex undertaking.

And if you screw up anywhere on the fine details, your new cam is likely to eat up the valve train in your engine pretty quickly.