hybrids

[Mike Flitcraft]

Never really looked into them all too much prior to having to do this paper, but besides the extra weight, complexity, lack of decent mpg gains over the gas version of the same car, waste (IMO) of resources, and additional risks in case of an accident, damn did I find something interesting.

Assuming a 50/50 city/highway mix at 10K miles per year at $2.50US, I went ahead and figured out how long it would take to break even based off of fuel milage difference and initial base MSRP difference. I was pretty much floored when I did the excel sheet.

2007 Camry - 31 years
2007 Highlander - 60 years
2007 Vue - 44 years
2007 Accord - 277 years
2007 Escape - 23
2007 Silverado - 151

I dunno about you, but I certainly don't see many folks keeping any of those vehicles for nearly those lengths of time...

Those tree huggers really are onto something, aren't they?

[BeaverGuy]

I just looked at these to see for myself and I would say you might have a bit of a problem passing these numbers off. While they are correct they are also a bit misleading.

The base versions and the base hybrid versions of the 4 I looked at were not equipped with the same options. I checked the Escape, Camry, Highlander and Vue. The biggest difference in each is that the base versions of all excpept the Camry have manual transmissions while the base hybrids have automatic transmissions. While there is an entirely different problem with the Highlander being that the base Hybrid has a V6 while the regular has a 4 cylinder and the Highlander base trimline can not be had with the V6.

After setting up comparably equipped versions of the Escape, Camry, and Vue. I came up with 12.1 years, 25.2 years, and 20.9 years respectively. Which is 121,000 miles, 252,000 miles and 209,000 milese. I would say all but the Escape are still unreasonable for a 1 owner vehicle nowadays though it isn't unheard of to have family cars with that kind of mileage.

You also might want to consider the tax credits that are available for the hybirds as well. Which can be a considerably portion of the price differences of the vehicle. For the 2006-07 2WD Escape the credit is $2,600. And if you included that tax credit, the Hybrid Escape breaks even in 2.7 years.

There is also the misconception that all hybrids are hybrids because of economy reasons. The Accord hybrid is a hybrid for performance reasons. Yet Honda isn't going to dissuade people from paying more for it because the customer thinks of it as a "green" car. And it is purely the marketing gimmick factor that GM is using by putting hybrid powertrains in their trucks, a 2 MPG difference in fuel economy is not something you pay for even if it is 12.5%.

[Mike Flitcraft]

I just went of bare minimum base MSRP for all models. Figured that would be the easiest way to do it all. Besides, if I really wanted to do more in-depth, I could always do geo metro's and sohc saturns. $1500 max and high 30's to high/mid 50's in city mpg or something to that effect I think.

I didn't do the tax credits because they vary by vehicle, and they're dead when 2007 ends.

[JR @ CFS]

What about security of supply? Did you take that into consideration? It isn´t only about the Environmental impact, it is also about two other facts
1- The world is running out of oil
2- The majority of supplies are in political unstable regions

The Environmental aspect is an added bonus http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Mike Flitcraft]

The world has been running out of oil, so claim the experts (and imagine that...the producers, how convienent) since the early 60's. Sort of like how in the 70's it was predicted that right now we would be in a massive ice age, and those same idiots are now running around with the global warming flag. I've yet to see it....we set a record low a week or two ago.

Politically unstable, not really. Just full of political bull. Alaska's got gigantic reserves, and the tree *uckers are too worried about their elk, and the buildings are already erected.

The one that I look forward to is alternative energy for cheap. Daniel Dingel's setup is interesting, I'm willing to bet with a high amp alternator and some capacitators it could be replicated, it's the regulation that would be the tricky part.

[benjo]

Another cost you can add on is the replacement of the batteries. As far as I know it is in the region of 7-8k AUD to replace them in the prius. Also for those touting how clean the hybrids are, have you considered the impact of battery production and disposal? It's easy to gloss over facts like these but in reality a hybrid is barely "cleaner" then a standard car.

Probably better off going for a small turbo diesel if your concerned about petrol prices/environmental aspects. Except there hasn't been much research into the nano-particles that are expelled from the modern diesel cars into the atmosphere.

Edit: For the record I would love to have a much cleaner and more sustainable form of transport available and would definetly purchase one if I could afford it. I just can't see hybrids in there current state being that much better then a standalone petrol/diesel car.

[Mike Flitcraft]

Exactly. Unfortunately, I'm limited to a 4 page paper, but you might like it. If not, tear it to shreds and give me a more bullet proof paper against the English nazi.

Hybrid Vehicles: Worth The Price?
Hybrid vehicles are beginning to edge their way into mainstream advertising and on our public roads. The manufacturers that produce these vehicles generally market them as environmentally friendly and big on gas mileage. These vehicles are campaigned as the vehicle we should all be driving daily, followed by small diesel vehicles powered by waste grease from restaurants, and then by purely electric vehicles. Although they do have two facts in their balance, do they have anything that counts against them, as things that may convince a potential buyer to walk away from the sale? There are a few very strong arguments to be made against them, with the author believing that they are not wroth the hassle. Why? Well, mainly is they don't get impressive fuel economy, they are overly complex and heavy, make little financial sense, and that there are better existing proven technologies out in today's world. In this paper, the author will be looking only at vehicle models offered in both hybrid and gasoline varieties, so that the differences can easily and accurately measured.
The first topic to plate is fuel economy. While the 2007 model hybrids to get better city fuel economy, they average less than 8 mpg better. On the highway, they do even worse, averaging only 2 mpg higher, with a best of a mere 5-mpg better. This data is taken directly off of the Manufacturer's websites, for the Accord, Escape, Highlander, Camry, Vue, and Silverado (see attached graph for more information). Why these vehicles? They are all offered in both gas only and hybrid versions, and also represent a wide variety of body choices, including small sedans and full size pickup trucks. The fuel economy of these vehicles certainly doesn't impress the author, whose 10 year old Saturn gets 30 mpg city, which is right on par for the average of the brand new hybrid vehicles. The 1997 Saturn also gets 32 mpg on the highway, above the 30-mpg average of the 2007 hybrid models. According to the Chevrolet, the Aveo gets 27 mpg city and 37 mpg highway while being small, cheap (under $11,000 brand new), and light weight (Aveo). This simple recipe has been used for a long time, from the early 90's Geo Metros that obtained 50-mpg highway, to the small commuter vehicles in Europe, such as the Opel Meriva minivan, which can get 47 miles to the gallon using a small diesel engine.
The second major factor that is working against hybrid vehicles is their weight. On average, the hybrid vehicles offered for sale in America average 460 pounds heavier than their gasoline brethren. Although it may not seem like much considering 3-4 occupants in a vehicle weigh approximately that amount, the Environmental Protection Agency states that removing 4% of a vehicle's weight will increase it's fuel economy by 3% (EPA). Ironically, this is the same strategy used in premium sports cars and racecars to improve performance as well. The addition of a second drive train introduces extra motors, as well as the gasoline motor already under the hood. It also adds the additional weight from a large battery, complex wiring (ask any mechanic who has to trouble shoot them), as well as the electronic controls required to smoothly transition from gasoline to electric, or combined power.

Hybrid vehicles also make very little financial sense. They initially cost a very hefty amount more, sometimes over $12,000 more for some models, like the Honda Accord and Chevrolet Silverado. The vehicles themselves get a small percentage gain in fuel economy, but not nearly enough to come close to closing the gap in purchase price. The 2007 Honda Accord Hybrid manages only 2-mpg city and 1-mpg highway better than the traditional gasoline version, yet costs $12,400 more. Another important fact is that hybrids depreciate much faster than your average vehicle on American roads today. How can that be you may ask. With the technology surrounding them changing so fast, why would anybody purchase a 2003 Toyota Prius when they can purchase a 2004 model for not much extra, but get better economy, power, and handling? Americans, simply put, don't want old technology in a world where it changes so rapidly. The other un-accounted for cost of ownership is the eventual disposal of the old batteries, and installation of the new ones. As an ex car part salesman, I say with confidence that a quality car battery for today's gasoline motors range from $50 and up, with $75-80 being the median. These are for batteries weighing around 30 pounds and hold about 12 volts, mere child's play to the Camry hybrid's massive 150 pound, 244 volt battery it carries around. Batteries also come with disposal fees if done at a garage, since it is considered hazardous materials due to the acid inside of them.

Hybrids may someday improve to the point where everything I have said so far is no longer true. They may eventually become lighter, more efficient, and more economical. However, until then, we already have developed, proven technologies for higher mileage, lower emissions vehicles. Although many people can't get a grasp on the concept, but the diesel engine is one of them. Not the big monster that resides within tractor-trailers, but rather small displacement 4 cylinder ones. American carmakers in Europe already employ them in force, making hundreds of thousands of small diesel powered vehicles every year. The advancement of modern technology has rid them of soot, particulates in the exhaust, a horrible smell, and the sound of a ticking time bomb. Diesel engines can create more power, using less fuel, using a smaller motor, than a gasoline motor, and uses less parts for greater simplicity. Vehicles that have long past away on American roads, such as the Volkswagen Fox, are being replaced with more modern versions, such as the 2006 Volkswagen Golf TDI, which can go longer between oil changes while getting over 40 mpg combined (EPA). Honda has been able to set 19 different world speed records while maintaining 92 mpg in a specially developed Accord powered by a diesel engine, which went on sale in Europe in 2004 (Honda Diesel). Another method uses water as fuel. Plain old tap water out of your home faucet, costing less than 75 cents per gallon. Salt water can also be used, costing only your time to collect it and pour it under your hood. An inventor from the Philippines named Daniel Dingel has been using water to fuel his vehicles for approximately 30 years. By using electrolysis, he separates the hydrogen from water and runs his engine off of the hydrogen (Daniel Dingel). He is one of the few who have attempted, and apparently succeed in running a car using water as fuel, as he has multiple patents pending on the technology. A video interview is on the website Youtube.com, explaining the concept and the political problems involved with the design (Youtube.com).
The hybrid vehicles of today simply aren't worth the financial or economic troubles, nor are they worth the waste of resources used to produce the secondary drive train. Instead, the manpower and resources should be used to pursue alternative forms of energy rather than blending of existing technologies to create money wasting mediocre performing vehicles.


Works Cited

"Aveo: Cars: Chevrolet." Chevrolet.com. 2007. General Motors Corporation. 19 Feb 2007 <http://www.chevrolet.com/aveo/>.

"Toyota Cars/Trucks/SUV's & Accessories." Toyota.com. 2007. Toyota Motor Sales. 19 Feb 2007 <http://www.toyota.com/>.

"Saturn." Saturn. 2007. General Motors Corporation. 19 Feb 2007 <http://www.saturn.com/saturn/SaturnIndex.jsp>.

"Honda Cars." Honda. 2007. American Honda Motor Company, Incorporated. 19 Feb 2007 <http://automobiles.honda.com>.

"Ford Vehicles." Ford Vehicles. 2007. Ford Motor Company. 19 Feb 2007 <http://www.fordvehicles.com/?referrer=http%3A%2F%2FWWW%2EFord%2Ecom>.

"2007 Chevrolet Silverado Classic Specifications." GM Vehicle Showroom. 2007. General Motors Corporation. 19 Feb 2007 <http://www.gmbuypower.com/pages/submodelSpecifications/2007_Chevrolet_Silverado+Classic_Hybrid.jsp;jsessi onid=B16361847B9911E279CAA5408EA3FD0E>.

United States of America. EPA.A Glance at Clean Freight Strategies Weight Reduction. Office of Transportation and Air Quality, 2004.

"Model 1 Vehicle Characteristics." Fuel Economy. 2007. EPA. 19 Feb 2007 <http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2001car1tablef.jsp?column=1&id=21884>.

"Honda Diesel Sets New World Records." Honda Worldwide. 06 May 2004. Honda Motor Company. 19 Feb 2007 <http://world.honda.com/news/2004/4040506.html>.

"Daniel Dingel." About.com. 2007. About.com. 19 Feb 2007 <http://inventors.about.com/od/filipinoscientists/p/Daniel_Dingel.htm>.

"Britney gets head shaved." Youtube.com. 25 May 2006. Youtube.com. 19 Feb 2007 <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVhXrvCCILw>.

[JR @ CFS]

All good arguements and I completely agree on most points, but, when you look at the battle that all major manufacturers are involved in now to produce a hybrid vehicle to catch up with the success of the Prius. What way is industry going? Why are they doing this? Look simply at Formula 1, they are moving into Hybrid technology as well. I for one, as an engineering student and soon to be graduate (yep, taking the leap once again into the real world), am very interested in learning about hybrid technologies and making myself more employable http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The americans can enjoy good security of supply through their governmental policies, but unfortunately here in Europe things are a bit different. Fuel is 4 times more expensive, so anything which has the potential to save us money, is a bonus!

Out of interest, did you do a direct comparison between two prius? What are the results? I spoke with a few taxi drivers when home and they rave about the prius because it saves them £100+ a week on fuel bills. I also use to work for the Swiss Federal Fesearch Institute (they do studies into these sort of things www.empa.ch) (http://www.empa.ch)) and they agree, mpg (european gallons) is around 40mpg, not much higher than standard, but the technology will improve to a point, including a life cycle analysis, that hybrid technology combined with bio-fuels, will be a lot cheaper to run than standard gasoline.

All my personal views of course, everyone has to throw their two cents worth into the subject http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Mike Flitcraft]

At 4 times the fuel rate, the amount of time to break even would be drastically cut...by 4 times as much.

The Pruis in America is only offered in a hybrid form, and I wanted to stick to base gas to base hybrid of the same make/model.

I would like to have a chance to look at Dingel's pattents a bit more. I'm almost positive he's running a higher amp alternator and running capacitators to support the elctrosylsis.