Cost Rules - Discussion of New 2009 Rules

[Bill Riley]

Hi everyone,

I thought I would start an informational and totally unofficial discussion of the new cost rules. All official answers, add item requests and other correspondence must be submitted through formal channels as outlined in the rules, at SAE.org and on www.fsaeonline.com (http://www.fsaeonline.com). However, because we're all working through the new rules together I thought it would be nice to have a more informal discussion as well as update you about the internal progress we have been making on the rules, Cost Tables and Cost Database.

Here we go:

1. Hopefully everyone has been to the SAE website and fund the Cost Tables and Appendices linked to our new dedicated Cost Website, www.fsaeonline.com (http://www.fsaeonline.com). If you haven't go see what we have posted so far.

2. We haven't been able to announce the plan for receiving the data or tell you much about the tool we will be providing to the teams to build their costed Bill of Material (cBOM) so far. However, we can now. The system has three parts: A) A MS Access front end for the teams, B) An internet browser based interface for the judges and C) A SQL server back-end running on a hosting service. This allows teams to work offline and synchronize their data whenever they choose. Multiple team members will be able to work at the same time as long as they are careful to divide up the work and not overwrite each others data. It also gives the judges a flexible viewer that doesn't involve downloading software. And finally a program running on the server (probably Matlab) will be going through the data and check for common errors and omissions.

3. The Access front-end Beta release should be out in the middle of December and the full release in early January. That gives even the teams entered into the Virginia event six weeks or more to enter their data. I have previously asked for Beta testers, but have received many requests and have picked the Universities that will be participating. Sorry if your team could not be included, but it should only be a short wait from Beta to the full roll out. We will also have some Excel worksheets up on fsaeonline.com shortly for internal team use.

4. We are also planning to migrate all the electronic submissions to the new website, and will hopefully have that early in the new year as well. Until we post it to SAE.org or fsaeonline.com please continue to submit all materials the normal way through email as specified in the rules and online for your specific event.

Hopefully this helps to fill you in on all the work happening behind the scenes. The new Cost Rules and Tools represents a huge investment in both volunteer hours and monetary spending by SAE -- so we hope that the teams like the direction we're going. There may be some growing pains along the way but eliminating receipts and achieving a Cost Event with minimal subjectivity and a focus on engineering content is the goal for us all.

Questions? Comments? Fire away -- and remember everything published here is unofficial.

Bill Riley

[exFSAE]

Bill-

I comment on this as an alumni. I'm very glad to see the cost rules are being revamped, as previously I feel they were severely lacking.

I haven't seen much of the new rollout. From previous experience however, the main issue I had with the system was the lack of a "reality check," and not so much how the data was submitted and stored (though standardization is great).

What prevents someone from submitting say.. a very involved billet upright design and claiming it only takes 10 minutes of CNC time? Or just flat out lying about what parts are and aren't on the car?

It was very frustrating knowing that in reality, it cost us about $21,000 to build a fairly simple car. By the cost rules, that price came out to be pretty close (cheaper in some areas, more expensive in others). But seemingly the way to perform the best in that event would be to flat out BS everything. There were certainly vehicles that were MUCH more involved in both CNC and composite manufacturing, and were costed at $13,000. Ridiculous!

[Bill Riley]

I appreciate your concerns with the prior rules. Many people worked very hard on them, but once we were able to identify some areas for improvement and ways to make that happen -- we took action to improve them.

The new rules do away with time altogether. The cost for machined components is now based on measurable parameters, such as the volume of the part being machined and the size of the original stock material. Since we have minimum machining thicknesses there is now a level playing field. We have used this methodology throughout the rules so that now every vehicle cost can be verified at the competition. Labor times have been replaced with a table costs based on the number and type of interfaces with surrounding parts. Composite lamination is based on surface area and number of plies. We have worked hard to remove all subjectivity from the cost report. There maybe some growing pains and things that can be improved but that is why we are trying to involve the teams at every step.

If you want a high level overview of the new rules see the tutorial that has been posted to the main page of fsaeonline.com. It's a pdf file and should be a good overview for alumni.

Bill

[rhb]

I was wondering is there going to be a new electronic BOM released this year or do teams create their own.

[Bill Riley]

Teams will be provided a database tool to build their BOM. The database will have the systems preloaded and then the teams will add assemblies and parts, along with all the cost information for those parts. So currently the Excel spreadsheet will not be updated because that type of data will be output from the database.

Bill

[Bigben]

Hi Mr. Rilley,
I read the cost tutorial, and in the a-arm example, the spherical bearing is in the fastener categorie. Why is that? If you look in the rules, it should not be a fastener, but a simple bought piece.
Thanks a lot

[Luke Osmokrovic]

Mr. Riley,

I have downloaded the excel spreadsheet that you posted on fsaeonline.com, meant for internal team use. I have noticed that the process description fields have dropdown selections with broken references. Manual process entries are also restricted.

Is there a quick fix or will an updated spreadsheet be released?
Our team would like to use whatever tools are ready to begin working on the report.
Thanks!

-Luke, UofT FSAE

[Bill Riley]

Spherical bearings will be materials. Same for rod ends. I hadn't developed the logic in the materials table when I did the example which is why I showed it as a fastener. In the actual database this will be error proofed because you can't add a spherical bearing to the fasteners fields. If you work with the Excel spreadsheet now posted on www.fsaeonline.com (http://www.fsaeonline.com) (lower right corner) you will have to manually put it in the materials section.

[Bill Riley]

I have updated the Excel file to address Luke's bug report. Please let me know if anyone else has a problem.

A few comments: The database provides file links so you can attach engineering drawings, sketches, pictures or whatever you want for the Cost Judges to understand your design. You aren't required to have all three or any for that matter but providing sufficient documentation is part of the event. I have three fields, the idea being a part drawing, solid model (more for team use then anything since the judges don't have CAD) and an actual picture. The "use" field is an optional text field where you can describe what you are doing. For example if you have a drilled hole you might describe what hole you are drilling.

The Excel file pretty much duplicates the fields from the Access database. Please add or delete rows as needed as the database doesn't limit the number of materials, processes, fasteners or tooling entries (abbreviated m/p/f/t) per part or assembly. The final structure of the database lets you associate m/p/f/t entries with assemblies so that assembly labor can be broken out from the part cost.

Finally, the Access application sorts based on the field "ItemOrder" for the m/p/f/t areas. However, because time is so short we don't have the code to insert an entry which means if you have 10 items and want to insert one half way through you will have to manually renumber items 6-10. So I suggest numbering initially by 10's so you have plenty of digits available. This is shown in the Excel but the first item is 10, the second 20, and so on. That way if an additional item needs to be added between 10 and 20 you simply make it 15 (or anything else in between) and will save time.

[Bill Riley]

One other comment: if you are making drawings or other documents to attach to the database please feel free to use the short part number convention. This is called out in the rules but I have gotten a couple of questions. So say you use the same relative design of chain tensioner (two rod ends into aluminum hex stock). You can make a drawing and put in the title block EN-00251-AA and then you can use it year to year or in more than one competition. The rest of the part number is for the electronic system and the Access application adds that automatically.

And don't forget the suffix, in this case "AA" is to help you track design and/or process changes so maybe the same tensioner with a lightening hole added later in the year would become EN-00251-BA. But if you don't use suffixes that is okay, just make them all "AA".

[Bill Riley]

We've been getting a lot of Add Item Requests for brake rotors...

Brake rotors must be cost as "student made". That means that regardless of whether you made or purchased your rotors you should use the materials and processes tables to construct them scratch.

So one way to make a simple iron rotor:
Buy an iron plate (by mass)
Mill the outer diameter and inner diameter
Face both sides

There are many other ways to process even this simple part using the rules but the point is that all rotors are cost as made.

[Bill Riley]

Since we're behind in getting the Database application distributed I've posted the fasteners table as it stands now. Please submit Add Item Requests for anything you don't see included.

[R.Trickett]

Bill,

As a suggestion to ease the workload on the cost report volunteers, it may be in your best interest to release updated tables on a weekly or biweekly basis reflecing the changes depending on the frequency of add items requests. This would eliminate many teams submitting the same add items requests over and over.

For example, if UWashington submits an add items request for part X, you may get 20 other requests from other teams for part X between our submission and the postmark date for the cost report since none of us know if there was already a request made. If instead the cost report team released an updated table the week after UWashington's request showing part X, that would eliminate all subsequent requests thus your volunteers would not have to filter through these over and over.

Just a thought Bill. Thanks for all of your hard work. Please let me know if i should instead email this suggestion to the cost report team as i know the forums are not "official".

[Bill Riley]

The revised tables will be up by the end of this weekend. I have been holding off because we haven't received that many Add Item Requests and have been focused on the Application development.

[Bill Riley]

The updated materials table is now posted. The process table has also been updated.

[Bill Riley]

Please see a major announcement about the new Cost Rules at either www.fsaeonline.com (http://www.fsaeonline.com) or directly at:

http://www.sae.org/servlets/pr...RMULA&RELEASE_ID=947 (http://www.sae.org/servlets/pressRoom?OBJECT_TYPE=PressReleases&PAGE=showCDSNews&EVENT=FORMULA&RELEASE_ID=947)

[The AFX Master]

Hello

I`m from the Formula SAE Universidad Simon Bolivar team.

We are getting an error when trying to sync with the master server, this is the first time we use the software.

"Processing
Gathering data to syncronize...
Univerity Number: 176
Validating Autentication.. please wait
Invalid Authentication"

We have no idea of what to do to solve our issue.

Best regards.

[Bill Riley]

For those of you entered into the Virginia event the deadline for the Add Item Requests is Feb 9 (tomorrow). The Aeroquip catalog is taking longer than we expected to process and post. It should be up in the next few days.

It is not necessary to submit an AIR for anything in the Aeroquip catalog. Any plumbing items that are not in the catalog should have an AIR submitted for them by the appropriate deadline. Again, if it's in the catalog even if we don't post the costs by tomorrow you don't need to submit an AIR. If it isn't in the catalog get your AIR in before the deadline for your competition.

[D Collins Jr]

Please pardon my ignorance if this is an extraordinarily simple question that I have missed the answer to. Where and when do I need to click to be able to get to the Access Application? I'm getting a little panicked because there's less than three weeks to do the report and it doesn't appear as though the application is ready. Is that something that will be released soon (or already is)?

[Bill Riley]

The Access application is not yet available for general use. We are working out some of the bugs with the new software. We apologize as we are behind schedule. The teams entered into the Virgina event should be costing their cars using the Cost Tables on the website and the Excel templates (or their own spreadsheets or tools). There is no requirement to use the new software for North America events in 2009. As soon as the software is deemed functional it will be rolled out to all teams.

[Bill Riley]

Make vs. Buy

A lot of teams are sending in Add Item Requests for parts which are not necessary, because these parts are "made" parts. Section 3.12 of the Cost Rules explains the difference, that teams should cost certain parts as "made" even though they purchase or buy them. This is in an attempt to reduce complexity in cases where the competitive advantage of certain parts is very low and the volunteers would have to add many different versions of something for very little benefit for you, the students. For example there are many types of steering racks and almost none of them are used exactly as purchased. Most teams end up making many of the parts themselves. Rather than catalog many steering racks we designate these as "made" parts. So even if you buy a Stiletto steering rack if the Cost Tables list this as a "made" part you cost it as if you bought the aluminum yourself and machined it at a mill. Or any other legal way to cost it. If the rack housing is cast then you cost it as cast. In theory all parts of the car could be done this way but we didn't want you to have to take apart your dampers to reverse engineer them. And because it is hard to describe the differences between dampers and there is a lot of performance difference between them (even ones that are almost the same on paper) these are "bought" parts that we list by make and model. For teams that actually make their own dampers there is still a Student Built option.

This confusion is obviously caused by the Materials Table not being clear. To try to make this more clear we will be adding place holders to the table. For example "Steering Wheel (All Cost as Made)" will be inserted. If you see this you will know to cost your steering wheel as if you made it. For example stamp out the steel shape, drill some holes, wrap in foam and cover in leather.

Some parts are listed both ways. There might be ten different calipers listed one of which is "Student Built'. In this case you should use the caliper you bought unless you actually made it then use the "Student Built" option and include all the materials, processes, fasteners and tooling used to cost that caliper. For more information please read section C3.12.
So if the material includes "Student Built" then you know you can cost it as you made it (if you did). If the material includes "(All Cost as Made)" then you know you have to cost it as if you made it even if you bought it.
As of the evening of Feb 9 these items are the ones that should be cost as if you made them even if you bought them. Please see the Materials Table as this list will not be updated:

Brake Rotor (All Cost as Made)
Differential Housing (All Cost as Made)
Pulley (All Cost as Made)
Sprocket (All Cost as Made)
Fuel Rail (All Cost as Made)
Heat Exchanger Fan Shroud (All Cost as Made)
Muffler (All Cost as Made)
Mirror, Rear View, Housing (All Cost as Made)
Seat (All Cost as Made)
Steering Pinion (All Cost as Made)
Steering Rack Housing (All Cost as Made)
Steering Rack (All Cost as Made)
Steering Wheel, Quick Release (All Cost as Made)
Steering Wheel (All Cost as Made)
Throttle Body (All Cost as Made)

Again, if you see a part on this list don't send an Add Item Request, instead cost it as if you had made it from the materials from which it is made.

Questions? Email us! Help us improve the clarity of this rules section.

[dazz]

Noticed that in the Materials table, the description/ comments for 'high performance' and 'ultra high performance' engines are back to front. Thought I'd bring it up to prevent teams getting tripped up on it at the event. (although it's pretty obvious to work out the error)

[PBR-keith]

Your not the only one.. Thanks for the update on it though.. I too was getting concern, or for that matter thought i was just stupid and couldnt find it.


Originally posted by D Collins Jr:
Please pardon my ignorance if this is an extraordinarily simple question that I have missed the answer to. Where and when do I need to click to be able to get to the Access Application? I'm getting a little panicked because there's less than three weeks to do the report and it doesn't appear as though the application is ready. Is that something that will be released soon (or already is)?

[VTMotorsports09]

We have a few questions about the ‘Excel Spreadsheet with Database Fields’.
(1) On the BOM tab what exactly do you mean by “The cost of assemlies on this chart should not include the cost of the parts in the assembly but only the materials, processes, fasteners and tooling in the assembly level.” Could you please go into further detail or provide a more thorough example on this topic?
(2) In your earlier post you said “The teams entered into the Virgina event should be costing their cars using the Cost Tables on the website and the Excel templates (or their own spreadsheets or tools). There is no requirement to use the new software for North America events in 2009. As soon as the software is deemed functional it will be rolled out to all teams.” Under the PART tab, there are specific things you ask for such as, area, length, density, etc. If we use our own tables is it necessary to follow your format?
(3) If we do have to use your excel spreadsheet format, could you please go into more detail on what is expected?

[Bill Riley]

All fair questions. We are putting together a one page "expectations" document that should cover all this. I'll post when it's done and available on the website

[Bigben]

Has somebody been able to sync with the server with the last database version? Also, Has somebody noticed that the car total (cost) does not match the parts cost?

[R.Trickett]

We have yet to get our hands on the actual cost software to even get a feel for it. I developed some powerful spreadsheets and costing system back in December to take into account all of the cost table fields and new system SAE has provided. It seems to be working well for all of our members to enter in the necessary items for their parts. Hopefully it will be a simple migration to the cost software if it becomes available prior to Michigan.

A couple more questions Bill.
(1) How do we go about costing splining parts, for example axle shafts? I don't see a splining process in the processes table.

(2) Brake lines fittings as well as fuel lines and fittings, should we be waiting for the Aeroquip catalog items to be added even if we do not purchase from Aeroquip, otherwise should we be submitting AIR for these items from other suppliers?

(3) Heat treat and normalizing, per section 3.6.2.A of the rules, we do not cost these items correct?

(4) For our tube space frame, does SAE expect that we (a) assign part numbers to each tube that is in the space frame and then define the processes for each tube (cut, cope, weld prep, weld) such that the space frame itself is an assembly defined by the tube parts or (b) specify the total length of tube, total cuts, welds, etc for the space frame and use that to define our space frame cost so that the space frame is basically 1 part?

Thanks Bill.

[Bill Riley]

(1) My expectation is that most splines would use the "Mill - Form Cutter" process on the process tables. If you are using a different process that you don't believe is represented please let me know. The thread forming on some stub shafts and other drivetrain parts that can't be captured by tapping a hole will be added, probably Monday.

(2) The Aeroquip catalog is going to be added as generic items so if you are using an AN fitting the price will be the same whether it is Aeroquip or not. If something isn't in the catalog or different from the catalog you should submit an AIR.

(3) Correct. These items do not need to be included for exactly the reason and rule cited.

(4) The rules do not require nor prefer one method over the other. My advice to you is to do the latter, option (b), make the frame "1 part", include all the tubing, cuts, welding, etc. under one part. I think this is more realistic and significantly less work for you. However, a drawing, screen capture or other document can and should be included to backup your numbers. For example you could include 56 tube end preps and then attach a pdf showing a spreadsheet of all the tubes in your frame (or simply print it and include it in the hard copy report).

[Matt Z]

Is the tooling table going to be posted? The current link is broken, and all my team members are asking about tooling and how it applies to their processes.

[Bill Riley]

Thanks! I didn't know it was broken. It's been posted since November, not sure when the link broke, but it's fixed now. Please let me know if any other links aren't working.

[FryGuy]

When can we expect a finalized materials list for Virginia?

[Brian McGreevy]

Bill,

How do we go about assigning Part #'s when using the "FCA_Inputs" template? Also is the suffix naming convention an abbreviation of the system it's in? So Brakes would be BR, Suspension SU, etc.

[Matt Z]

How do I cost using a hole saw to cut a hole in sheet metal? The hole diameter is larger than 2", but costing it as a "saw cut" seems way too expensive for about 5 seconds of power tool "drilling" (since I presumably need to cost the saw cut by the circumference of the hole).

[Bill Riley]

1) For Virgina only (that means not Michigan or California) we will be announcing tomorrow an extension to the deadline for postmarked cost reports. The deadline will be March 9th. The official wording will be available on the SAE website and I will post a link from here and www.fsaeonline.com (http://www.fsaeonline.com). This is due to delays on our side (the organizers). It will also contain an explanation of what you should send us (hard copy and optionally electronic).

2) The Cost report application is not yet available. Lots of you have been sending in emails, which is fair. The truth is we're finalizing the hard copy report outs and incorporating the Beta test feedback. Please, please please you should be costing your car using the Excel templates on the website as the software may not come out in time for the Virginia teams.

3) We got slammed with Add Item Requests. I will post an updated materials table tonight sometime but don't look for it to be complete with all Virginia AIR's before the end of the weekend.

4) To answer Brian McGreevy's question, the system abreviations are in Appendix C-3 on the website. The base numbers are assigned by the team and arbitrary. See also Appendix C-2 for more details.

5) To answer Matt Z's question about hole saw cuts, you could consider this milling based on the volume of the material removed. Just explain in the description that the "mill" is a hole saw. You could also use a punch if the metal is thin enough. I will look at adding hole saw cuts to the process table.

[Bill Riley]

I will be adding a process called "Sheet metal saw cut" at $0.20 / cm that can be used for straight saw cuts or hole saw cuts. Cost hole saw cuts by circumference.

[Pierre-Olivier]

Hello, a few questions...

First, when costing suspension assembly, is that all lumped under, say, "Suspension Setup-Independent Susp. (per Corner)" @ $8.75/unit? what steps need to be shown? Or are we just talking alignment and the like?

Second, we run Weld three piece wheels, which are not specifically listed in the list. They are similarly priced to the Keisers, so would it be reasonable to use that price?

Third, we have an off the shelf differential, and housing. The list of that you posted lists those as made... Is this forever, or just for VIR pending an AIR? It's not a particularly simple part...

And finally, is there any way to have a formula for bearings (ball, needle etc) similar to the spherical bearing formula, or do you need an AIR for every specific bearing?

Thanks

[Bill Riley]

In answer to your questions:

1) The suspension setup includes all adjustments necessary for that corner, so if include four of these you are set. We debated how much detail to go into on this (per adjustment link, per shim). In the end we decided simple is better as we can always increase the sophistication of the cost model for future years, but for now just use the correct adjustment per corner. Also note that there is a misc. adjustment for things like chain tension, etc.

2) If a manufacturer is listed you can't use that description unless you run that component. If the manufactureris "Any" then it applies to every manufacturer. It isn't okay to cost Weld wheels as Keizer. We need an AIR.

3) Diff housings are "made" parts which means instead of listing 100 differentials we are listing types of internals. You buy the internals off the table and then cost the housing as if you made it.

4) I've been working on the bearing cost model for months and suffice it to say it is elusive. I finally was able to develop one for needle bearings based on the AIR's we received for Virginia (had to check the correlation). For now other types of bearings needs AIR's and as soon as we "crack" the formulas for them they will be added in their more general form like rod ends. If you have an equation that works send it to us.

[Pierre-Olivier]

Additionally...

1)Does this mean that I can cost a corner's assembly cost as 8.75? (which would be awesome because of the number of parts I'm dealing with)

2) We're going to VIR... So I need to cost it as made? Quite frankly, I was really surprised that the Welds weren't there, as popular as they are... Can I send you an AIR for Virginia? or am I stuck with an "as made item" as I'm (and by I I mean we) also behind on the cost, though trying to match every example...

3) OK...

4) So I need to list a ball bearing as made for VIR then? I'll check to see if I can find a formula... guess it depends on brand, is it ok to base it just on INA/FAG?

Thanks

[Bill Riley]

1) The $8.75 only include the "setup". That is setting camber, castor, toe, etc. The assembly labor uses the normal labor entries to assemble each part to the assembly and the assembly to the car...so sorry but it's going to be quite a bit more expensive to actually put the corner together. And the cost will be proportional to complexity just like we designed the rules to reflect.

2) If you didn't make the wheel you can't cost it as made. You have to submit an AIR for Virginia.

3)

4) I was a little bit kidding about formula because it's a lot of work and I have been trying to do it for a long time. Better submit your AIR's for your bearings. We may get them processed before the deadline but we may not...

[Adam Vaughan]

Bill,

I had submitted this question to Kathleen McDonald at the beginning of this month, and apparently it's caught in limbo waiting on a response from the rules committee... That said, I was hoping you could shed some light on what we should do. The VIR deadline is rapidly approaching, and it'd be really great to have a little more insight:

> How do we cost student built electronic boards that are external to a
> commercial ECU?
>
> In our case, we have a number of custom Printed Circuit Boards that
> are connected via CAN and communicate with, but are not directly
> controlled by our MicroSquirt ECU. A couple are used to actuate
> motors for gear shifting and variable intake geometry, another is used
> for our dash / traction control unit, one is used for a our fusebox /
> battery controller, and a final one is used for cooling system
> control. While all of them sense the variable(s) they control, they
> do not strictly qualify as a "Sensor to CAN Converter - $25" as they
> operate largely independent of the ECU. Further, they wouldn't fall
> under the umbrella of a student built ECU because actual engine
> control is handled by the MicroSquirt.
>
> Additionally, non-traditional PTC fuses, microcontrollers, LEDs,
> rotary selectors, and non-character based LCD dot-matrix displays
> are used. PTC fuses are soldered components that are basically
> resistors and a distinctly different class from traditional automotive
> fuses. LEDs and other components on PCBs have essentially the same
> cost and packaging as resistors or capacitors, and (when embodied on
> a PCB) their separate costing seems outside the intention of the rules,
> which seem to imply standalone components. Also, a dot-matrix LCD can
> represent any size character, and as such there is some ambiguity as
> to how to cost it because we could basically say it shows one (large)
> character.
>
> Our actual cost for the units in question is under $50 each for the
> PCB and components plus less than an hour's worth of hand soldering.
> If they were to see an actual 1000 unit production run for the weekend
> autocross driver, we'd expect their total material and assembly cost
> to be well under $10 each. I assume we need to submit a AIR for each
> instance, but I feel it'd be more appropriate to have a "catch-all"
> cost for these electronics (given the breadth of possible components)
> , as there is for the student built ECU.

[George 4]

Just one quick question when the cost software is released will we need Microsoft Access 2007 (or any other version for that matter) to support it or is it a stand alone?

[Bill Riley]

Adam: I'll get you a response through Kathleen by tomorrow.

George: You will not need to buy any software. A runtime version of MS Access will be available for free on our website for you to install if you don't have Access 2007 installed.

[Bigben]

Mr Riley,
If you could answer Adam's question on the forum, it would help us also, and probably many other teams. Our electronic's guy as the same interogation.
Thanks a lot
Benoit Vaillancourt
FSAE ETS 2009

[Bill Riley]

Fair enough. Posted below is the response. This would apply to similar parts and if you get your AIR's in I can analyze them all together to create the parametric cost model for this type of component. Just to clarify I feel dedicated engine controllers are already listed, even student built, so this is something new, what I'm calling a chassis control module which may or may not interface to the engine controller but when removed the engine could still run.


Adam,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I agree with your reasoning and that you have a unique case here and something we want to capture by function, not by individual component costs.

Please send us a detailed list of all inputs/outputs including what they control and if you consider them a signal, control or power, as per the rules. If you could include a picture or diagram also, as well as more detailed description of the other attributes, like the display, we will convert this to a parametrized cost. My initial thought is to call it a "chassis control module" and parametrize it by inputs/outputs, keeping in mind your estimated production cost. Please provide the information quickly and we'll get it built in to the tables for Virginia.

Bill Riley
FSAE Rules Committee

[Pierre-Olivier]

Mr. Riley,

I noticed that the English units round area calculation on the Cross_Sections tab of the provided excel sheet needs to be divided by 4.
new equation:

=IF(Cross_Sections!$B4="Round",PI()*(Cross_Sections!$E4^2-(Cross_Sections!$E4-2*Cross_Sections!$G4)^2)/4,IF(Cross_Sections!$B4="Square",(Cross_Sections!$E4^2-(Cross_Sections!$E4-2*Cross_Sections!$G4)^2),"Shape Not Listed"))

Just thought you might want to know...

Cheers,

Pierre

[Luke Osmokrovic]

Hi Mr. Riley,

I noticed that in your tutorial the example process description of an A-Arm does not include steps for seting up a part onto a mill, lathe or jig. However, machining setup and changes are included in the processes cost tables. Can you please clarify what is expected.

Many Thanks,
Luke

[Bill Riley]

Pierre-Olivier,

Thank you for pointing this out to me. I will post a revised spreadsheet to the website today.

[Bill Riley]

I am going to post a couple of questions the Rules Committee received that I thought would be helpful to other teams. I have received permission from the team submitting the question before posting on this forum.

Question:

Mr Riley,
I have started to calculate the material and process for machined parts. I would like to know why we have to have a roughing and a finishing process, when it is the same material removal cost. It makes it very long and very complicated to calculate even simple parts, such as bushings and spherical holders. Why can’t we just cost it using gross weight minus net weight. Also, where are the densities for every material so we can calculate the weight of our billets and parts properly?

Answer:

You don't have to both rough and finish. They are both included because the minimum machining stocks are different. They were included because some processes are "near net shape" which means you can have less machining stock.

Additional comments:

In order to reduce student workload and save the number of process steps in the report, I will add machining operations that combine rough & finish steps with the minimum material removed equal to the rough and finish steps combined.

[Bill Riley]

Question:

Where are the densities for every material so we can calculate the weight of our billets and parts properly.?

Answer:

You provide the densities for your actual material to make the mass of your parts equal the mass of your final parts. We're not going to list standard densities because it gets to complicated for plastics and composites.

[George 4]

Mr Riley,

On the excel template what are the filelink cells for?

[Bill Riley]

The database lets you attach files for the judges to review, like pdf files of drawings, jpg pictures of parts, etc. You can ignore the Excel field or use it as place to store the location of your file on disk for when you use the database.

[Bill Riley]

Announcement: The plumbing portion of the materials table are now available for comment on fsaeonline.com. These are unofficial because I want to make sure that there aren't any errors or typographic mistakes. Please review your plumbing parts and if you end up with a $100 fitting please let me know right away. These will be built into the materials table when they are officially posted. I'd like to do that Sunday or Monday so please send your comments to Kathleen McDonald or post here.

Thanks

[Bill Riley]

Examples

We have been so busy with AIR's that we haven't had a chance to update the examples from the tutorials or create new ones based on the evolution of the tables. I'm asking anyone who is willing to email Kathleen McDonald a part costing along with a drawing or picture that I can review and post to the website as an example after I reviewed it. The downside is your cost information will be public, the upside is you will have a Rules Committee member review your costing ahead of time. I won't necessarily review every one we receive but a few representative ones will be posted to the website with comments.

I haven't forgotten to cover the fixturing time for machining. I am working on a full proper response.

Thanks

[RaceUP]

Hello Mr Riley, I would like to know if the MS Access application for the BOM is now available for the teams and if it is reliable enough for beign used at its full potentiality.
Furthermore I would like to know if this application could be used also for the European events of the SAE.
Thank you for the attention.

Paolo Bernardotto

[cjanota]

Hello Mr Riley,

I have a question concerning the tooling cost for a laminated composite. We make some carbon fiber panels with a balsa core that are flat. We lay up the materials on a piece of window glass to go in the autoclave. I assume that the $10,000 per m^2 for the composite tooling is meant for a contoured tool (such as a machined mold.) Is this also meant to apply to a simple flat surface such as our glass? $10,000 per m^2 seems awfully high for a piece of glass (we pay about $50 for a 30" x 60" piece.) If it does should we cost it as a composite tool?

[Bill Riley]

Paolo: The software isn't available yet but when it is our intention is to make it available for more than just the North America events.

cjanota: In high volume manufacture you might use something more sophisticated, and if not think of it as the number of glass panels you would need to make 1000 units a year of that part. Sorry if this seems unfairly expensive to you but the whole point of standardized costs is to make them standard. In this one instance it might be high but on some others it might be low and if we do our job right it works out over all the parts on all the cars to be right on average and in most cases. Don't forget you divide the cost of the tool by 3000 (PVF=3000), so compared to the cost of the carbon and the labor the tooling contribution should be small.

Note: The PVF for monocoques is not 3000, and this captures the more complicated nature of these tools and the massive amount of time it takes to layup a tub. In future years we may develop the model that generates the PVF factors to account for simple geometries like this, but I think things are complicated enough this year.

[Bill Riley]

Machining model:

Many of you are asking why we broke out rough and finish cuts and the different lathe and mill operations. I though it would be better for the teams and the judges to work with and read the reports. However, I have been convinced that what is easiest for everyone is to have one "machining" operation where you take the net finished volume and you take your starting shape and subtract them. What you are left with is the volume of material removed. This means now one line item in your process list can include all the machining operations. It is less detailed but easier for everyone.

So, I am adding a new process step called "Machining". It doesn't mention lathe or mill and has the same cost of $0.04 / cm^3.

There is nothing wrong with using the older process steps so I'm leaving in them in the tables but putting them in strike-through font so you won't think you have to use them. We'll try this out this year and if it doesn't work we can go back to the old way.

Note to everyone: this does not change the cost of any machined component only makes a new optional way to represent it. If you don't like it use the old way. And don't forget unless you use a basic forming process to create your part the minimum machining stock is 1.5mm.

[MrSwa]

Mr Riley
In previous versions of the materials table, the Honda ATV diff internals where included. I noticed that on the most recent ones, it is not. Nor is an option for the type of internals it uses. I understand that we have to make the case, but how do we need to price our internals?

Thanks in advance for your help

[Bill Riley]

I want to change the Honda ATV differential over to the type of differential it is (like the other diffs). I have an email to a team about it but haven't heard back yet. Can you post the general type here so I can add it back more generally? I realized after I posted it that it was inconsistent to list the Honda ATV whereas everything else is "Torsen style" or "clutch plate style", etc.

Thanks

[Adam Vaughan]

Mr. Riley,

I hope my summary of our electronics system sufficiently captured everything needed to develop a cost model. Let me know if you need anything else for it.

I just tried to download the new plumbing table, however the link currently points to tooling table.

Plumbing Table «9» (will be included as part of materials table)

Fortunately, tblPlumbing.xls (http://www.fsaeonline.com/Downloads/tblPlumbing.xls) is right where it should be in the directory structure. I imagine things remain pretty hectic over there, but when you get a chance, can you fix the main link?

[MrSwa]

In response to your question, it is cam and pawl style diff.

[Bigben]

Mr Riley,
I have one quick question on machining. If a machined cnc part has drilled and taped holes and of course, we do these hole as part of the machining sequence. Is the material removal cost as machined, or we have to cost as a drilled hole?

[Bill Riley]

Adam: Thank you for pointing out the broken link. I'm glad you found the file. The website is updated so the link works now.

U of Louisville: I will add this generally to the tables based on a representative cost for this style.

Ben: You can cost the holes as machined, I would do whatever is cheaper. Obviously if they're tapped holes you would have to include that on top of the machining cost.

[Bill Riley]

Anodizing

Anodizing does not need to be included in the cost report. I am adding it to the cost tables with a cost of $0 and note to this effect (so people in the future will not wonder if they need to cost it).

[Bill Riley]

This is a message from Luke a few days ago:

Hi Mr. Riley,

I noticed that in your tutorial the example process description of an A-Arm does not include steps for seting up a part onto a mill, lathe or jig. However, machining setup and changes are included in the processes cost tables. Can you please clarify what is expected.

Many Thanks,
Luke

Answer: My proposed response is that the setup labor should be included with every part. Having any other rules creates a huge gray zone where some parts will have this labor and some won't. To fix the problem of automation, however, I propose that the quantity value for this line item can be scaled to represent the number of parts produced from each fixture setup. So an upright machined out of billet aluminum would have a a quantity of 1, since one block of aluminum makes 1 part. The a-arm inserts from the example might have a quantity of 0.1 since you could chuck up a bar of steel and machine 10 of them out of a bar. This reduces the cost per part to a reasonable level. However, you would need to be able to proove this is possible. I don't want to see a 6 foot x 6 foot block of aluminum and then you say you machined every aluminum part on your car out of if it with one setup fee. You would need a picture of the mill setup or a layout drawing showing how you could fit all the welded on frame tabs out of a single sheet of steel and where you would clamp it down. If you create that layout drawing and then show that 8 tabs fit in a sheet of steel then you could claim 0.125 for the quantity of the setup fee for each tab. This seems fair and something judges can confirm in your report if you include the documentation. Quantity values of 1 would not need any documentation.

I open this up to comments from team members before making a final decision to hear compelling arguments for or against.

Bill Riley

[MrSwa]

Mr. Riley,
I just notice that our dampers on not on the list either. They are Koni 3012. The approximate cost to us last year was ~$450/piece. Should we just take that cost and the penalty or can that still be added? Thanks in advance.

[Luke Osmokrovic]

Mr. Riley,

I would like some clairifaction on the purpose of the process "Attach wire, ring" in the 'Electrical-Attach Wire' category.

Is this the cost of attaching the connector to the wire, or the cost of installing the connector (and the attached wire) onto a part/terminal?

If it is for connecting the ring to a wire, would this cost replace the need for crimping?
If this cost is for installing to a terminal, does this replace assembly labor (loose fit or line-on-line)?

Your help is appreciated.
-Luke

[George 4]

Mr. Riley,

I noticed that there is no cost for brake fluid in the materials table. Will there be a standardized cost or are we to use the cost it takes to obtain it?

The other question I have is the excel template that is available, are we only allowed to use that or can we use one we made ourselves?

George

[Bill Riley]

MrSwa: The Koni 3012 will be in the next update for the tables (probably later today).

Luke: The "attach wire, ring" can puts the ring on to a terminal block, screw, etc. Crimp puts the ring on the wire. You don't need to double book labor so the electrical labor replaces the general labor. So in this case if you crimp and use the ring attach you don't need any "1 kg, loose" etc. labor codes.

George 4: The comments under oil notes that this includes hydraulic (brake) fluid.

I would like to make an important point about the second part of your question, and I'm paraphrasing "or do we just use the cost we paid for it". The answer to that question is always no, the cost must come from the tables and if it isn't in the tables you need an AIR submitted and approved. We want everyone to use the same cost for the same material for fairness.

You may use any format/template you want. The Excel file was a suggestion.

[Bill Riley]

This is a message from Luke a few days ago:

Hi Mr. Riley,

I noticed that in your tutorial the example process description of an A-Arm does not include steps for seting up a part onto a mill, lathe or jig. However, machining setup and changes are included in the processes cost tables. Can you please clarify what is expected.

Many Thanks,
Luke

Answer: My proposed response is that the setup labor should be included with every part. Having any other rules creates a huge gray zone where some parts will have this labor and some won't. To fix the problem of automation, however, I propose that the quantity value for this line item can be scaled to represent the number of parts produced from each fixture setup. So an upright machined out of billet aluminum would have a a quantity of 1, since one block of aluminum makes 1 part. The a-arm inserts from the example might have a quantity of 0.1 since you could chuck up a bar of steel and machine 10 of them out of a bar. This reduces the cost per part to a reasonable level. However, you would need to be able to proove this is possible. I don't want to see a 6 foot x 6 foot block of aluminum and then you say you machined every aluminum part on your car out of if it with one setup fee. You would need a picture of the mill setup or a layout drawing showing how you could fit all the welded on frame tabs out of a single sheet of steel and where you would clamp it down. If you create that layout drawing and then show that 8 tabs fit in a sheet of steel then you could claim 0.125 for the quantity of the setup fee for each tab. This seems fair and something judges can confirm in your report if you include the documentation. Quantity values of 1 would not need any documentation.

I open this up to comments from team members before making a final decision to hear compelling arguments for or against.

Bill Riley

This idea can now be considered rules compliant and the next process table update will include a note to this effect.

[Claudia Del Vecchio]

Mr Riley,
I'm writing you becaus I have two questions.

- The first is about the difference between ANY and ALL in the supplier column of the materiale table. Does one of the two term includes if the part is Student built?

The second questione is about the unit cost for carbon fiber...iN the tables the carbon fiber the cost unit is $/kg but I know that normally the carbon fiber is costed in $/meters...Wich is the right unit cost?

Thank you very much

[A. Mitchell]

Mr. Riley-

I have a few questions that have come up while working on my BOM.

For an air-water heat exchanger what are you looking for for volume? Core volume (height * width * depth)? Actual internal volume? Including tanks? Maybe external heat transfer area would be a bit less ambiguous?

I don't see any type of filler neck included in parts or plumbling. Should this be cost as student built or should I submit and AIR? This is an example of what I am looking at:

http://store.summitracing.com/...700+115&autoview=sku (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MOR%2D63485&N=700+115&autoview=sku)

Lastly, for processes shoud we be including the "Machining Setup, Intall and remove" process twice for each part? Once for installing/machine set-up and once for removing the finished part?

Thank you.

[Bill Riley]

Mr. Riley-

I have a few questions that have come up while working on my BOM.

For an air-water heat exchanger what are you looking for for volume? Core volume (height * width * depth)? Actual internal volume? Including tanks? Maybe external heat transfer area would be a bit less ambiguous?

I don't see any type of filler neck included in parts or plumbling. Should this be cost as student built or should I submit and AIR? This is an example of what I am looking at:

http://store.summitracing.com/...700+115&autoview=sku

Lastly, for processes shoud we be including the "Machining Setup, Intall and remove" process twice for each part? Once for installing/machine set-up and once for removing the finished part?

Thank you.


Andrew Mitchell
UWashington Team 20


Andrew,

We're looking for what you call core volume, length x width x height. What we could measure at the judging tent with a tape measure.

Filler necks are cost as made.

"Machining setup, Install and Remove" includes both fixturing the part and removing after machining all as one process cost, so don't include it twice or you will be double paying for something. It also includes cleaning the parts of chips, etc which is why it might seem expensive as a labor cost.

[Bill Riley]

Mr Riley,
I'm writing you beause I have two questions.

- The first is about the difference between ANY and ALL in the supplier column of the material table. Does one of the two term includes if the part is Student built?

The second question is about the unit cost for carbon fiber...iN the tables the carbon fiber the cost unit is $/kg but I know that normally the carbon fiber is costed in $/meters...Wich is the right unit cost?

Thank you very much


Claudia,

Any and all are interchangeable. I will change all the "all" to "any" so it is consistent and less confusing.

Do you have a specific example of what you are wondering about student built parts? Generally student built will be in the material description.

Carbon fiber is normally cost per square meter but that cost varies a lot depending on the specific weave and number of fibers in each ply (plus thickness of the ply). We found that to represent carbon fiber (and other composites) relatively accurately we had to do it by mass.

Don't forget the cost per mass includes resin as well as carbon so you need to cost your part by finished part mass, not by the dry fiber or mass before layup.

[Lenz_FH]

Mr. Riley-

I have a question that come up while working on the add items. We are a European team and we are working in Euro instead of Dollar. Last year there was a defined exchange factor in the rules, but that´s missing this year.
Should we take the exchange factor from 1st january 2009?

None of our add items are in the new table update, (Sachs dampers and ECU Motec M800).

Lorenz Ehgartner
joanneúm racing graz

[VTMotorsports09]

Since we are all using the same cost tables, you will not need to convert Euros. Just use the dollar amount given for a particular material or process from the tables.

Have you sent in an AIR for the dampers and Motec? If not, you need to. If you did, from what I have heard, they are still in the process of updating the tables with all of the AIRs.

Hope this helps.

Brad Underwood
Virginia Tech

[Lenz_FH]

We also write the cost report in dollar but the finacial management in our team work in Euro.

For the AIR`s we currently use Euro because there is not defined exchange factor like it was last year. Is it ok to do that?
(Last year the dampers was in the costreport with the exchange factor from 01.01.2008, like all purchase parts in our team)

I have a second question concerning the oil cooler. In the tables you find a Air to Air cooler and a Air to Water cooler. Is it ok to use the price for a Air to Water cooler for the oil cooler too?

Best regards
Lorenz

[FryGuy]

Brake pads and heat exchangers are costed at $0.00 per mm^3. Does that mean they are free or is this a typo?

[FH_Roland]

There are Controllers for active suspension and active differentials included, but there is no controller for shifting purposes.

We have a self made controller unit built for that. How should we cost it, especially as there is no posibillity do cost it as self made as all needed parts are not included in the table.

Greets!

[Bill Riley]

I have posted a new material table that has almost all of the AIR's we've received since about middle of last week. Not all, but most.

Now to answer some questions:

Lenz_FH: Send us your AIR in Euro. We can convert it. If you want to convert it for us, please use whatever exchange rate you think as we will check it. Before the exchange rate mattered a lot more because no one looked at it before the competition but now we check them all before we add them to the tables.

The Sachs Damper and Motec M800 are now included. We were working on it, but the work is complete. We have received several hundred AIR's and there are three of us working on them.

Please use air-to-water for air-to-oil. When I added them it was in the general sense I and I didn't realize it might be confusing. I will modify it to be air-to-liquid.

FryGuy: Please increase the number of digits and you will see the cost is not zero. The unit size is small so the unit cost is very small and doesn't show up in the default format. Sorry for the confusion.

FH_Roland: We have developed a model for costing all integrated electronics like you're talking about. It is under internal review and should be posted this week. The basic idea is you cost a "chassis control module" which is the box the electronics sit in. Then you add the functionality you have in your electronics by adding line items from the materials table. You don't cost it by adding resistors, capacitors, etc. Once the methodology is approved after committee review I will have it in the table, and I'm planning to do it this work week to give the Virgina teams time to use it.

[Bigben]

I just looked in the new material table, and I don't see any motec M800 (we use it also).

[Pierre-Olivier]

Mr. Riley,
I should have asked this earlier, but I notice that in the suspension there is an assembly section for rodends. I have been including rodends in individual assemblies; do I need to change that?

Also, "suspension Mechanism," does that refer to the Anti-roll bars?

Thanks,
Pierre-Olivier

[George 4]

Mr. Riley,

Under the electrical system what is meant by a Battery Brake Light?

~George

[Abhi Mittal]

Mr Riley,

Thanks for being so responsive on the forum so far, helps a lot. On a more general note, will the Access application be usable by British teams for the Formula Student event too? I noticed in the video it requires a PIN, will we be provided with one?

Thanks

[Burg]

Hi Mr. Riley,

Looking at the electronics process section I've noticed that the cost of shrinking heat shrink tubing ('Shrink Tube') is $0.15/cm. Considering taping the wire bundle ('Taping Wire Bundle') is $0.04/m, would it not be reasonable to cost heatshrinking per meter as well?

Also, will you be adding velcro to the materials list? Is an AIR required?

Thanks,
Nicholas Burgwin.

[Tim Hoyt]

Mr. Riley

Could you explain the interaction between parts, assemblies, and systems? From what I understand the assemblies are all specified in Appendix C-3. However, I get confused when brake fluid, bulbs, or lug nuts are considered seperate assemblies. How do I seperate m,p,f,t costs between parts and assemblies? I know this is often situation specific but could I have some guidelines?

Thanks

[Bill Riley]

Ben: Sorry about that, I didn't realize we were waiting on a response back from Motec. I confirmed it today and it will be added at $1650.

Pierre-Olivier: When you say rod ends are an assembly do you mean in the BOM tab of the Excel file or Appendix C-3. That is a left over from the old rules that I need to fix. Rod Ends should be included wherever you feel is convenient which I would expect would be within the part or assembly that uses them.

George: Which line item are you asking about? I didn't see it when I checked the latest tables. We've added so many I can't remember it.

Abhi Mittal: Yes, the application will be usable for the overseas events. You will receive an authentication number from your competition organizing group. The US organizers are currently putting together the information for the overseas events but we're expecting one set of rules for everyone.

Burg: I believe the wire bundle taping is a typo and should be $.04/cm. Obviously there isn't a ratio of 375 between heat shrink tubing and taping the wire bundle. I will review whether we want to fix this.

Tim: C3 doesn't speceficy all the assemblies, but rather it tells you under which system to include common assemblies. The actual break down of the assemblies/parts is up to you. However, we want the general makeup to be as shown in C3 because the judges divide up the workload so the wheel & tire judge will be expecting to see wheel bearings, for example so if he/she doesn't you might get a penalty for "forgetting" the wheel bearings.

I hope this helps. So to answer your question a bit more, brake fluid doesn't need to be it's own assembly but it should be in the brake section.

[Tim Hoyt]

Thank you. I appreciate all your work on our behalf.

[FryGuy]

Just for clarification, are we allowed to add rows to the BOM? I know it says not to modify the format but if there are items not listed or covered by subassemblies can we add lines?

[George 4]

Mr. Riley,

Under the fasteners section of the process table the unit of measure is "unit", this means per fastener right?

Thanks for all your help,
George

[Tim Hoyt]

Are we considering silver soldering and brazing to be the same process as welding?

[Shane_V]

Mr. Riley,

When should we expect to have the software available to us? We are registered for Virginia, and the deadline is quickly approaching. Should we expect to submit only a hard copy of the report without using the provided software?

Thank you,

Shane Viccary

[Tim Hoyt]

Shane, the answer I got for that one was that it probably won't be ready and we need to make our own spread sheets and combine them. We also are required to send in the hard copy for VIR. I'm just using the example spreadsheet that's on the website and working from there. I hope you've got it mostly done.

[Tim Hoyt]

Questions:

(1) Setup - Install Remove - Do we need to use this process for tube preps
(2) Welding - Do we need setup or assembly process for putting the parts on the jig?
(3) Tube Weld, Cuts, etc. - Are we using process multipliers or tooling for those?
(4) Assembly for Tires to Wheels - Should we just use Assembly, Interference?

[D Collins Jr]

Open question to anyone:

How are you guys doing your assembly levels? The spreadsheet that's for download that I think alot of teams are using for a template shows assemblies on the BOM that are very very specific, like Rear A Arms, for instance. I know that I've got suspension broken into about two assemblies with A Arms, dampers, springs, pullrods etc. as parts in front and rear corner assemblies. Does anyone know if that's acceptable, either from the rules cmte or by everyone doing something similar? It just seems kind of silly to me to have an assembly that is a a arm, that has a correspnding part file, and goes into some other assembly, I'd assume.

Thanks,

[Pierre-Olivier]

David,

From reading above, I believe that as long as you keep the required items in the right major group (e.g. Suspension, Wheels and Tires, Brakes...) that you are free to organize them as you see fit. (Mr. Riley, please correct me if I'm wrong) Personally, I have front and rear assemblies set up as their own entries in the BOM. This means that I had to split some of the entries into two (like Pushrods/Pullrods to "Front Pullrods" and "Rear Pushrods")



Also, Mr. Riley,
I haven't received any updates on the Weld rims... Will they be on the list by the 9th? Thanks!

[Adam C.]

Mr. Riley,

In the plumbing table, all of the hoses have Size1 and Size2 entries under the comments field, but the formula only includes the Size1 parameter. I assume this is incorrect, since the formula that is there currently wouldn't take the length of the hose into account for costing. What is the correct formula for this? Thanks.

Adam C.

[Adam C.]

Also, this has been brought up previously in the thread, but I'm not 100% clear on this. I know that the cost for a heat exchanger is based on core volume, but does that cost only cover the core itself? In other words, do end tanks need to be calculated separately from the core or are they included in that cost? Thanks.

[George 4]

David,

I did something similar, I have the A Arms broken down into front and rear assemblies, under each assembly then i have the top A Arm and the Bottom A Arm.

[Daleezer]

Mr. Riley,

What was the final cutoff date for AIR forms? We are doing a student built electronic shifter using a drill motor and gear reducer which is not on the table. Is this something we will need to just have an addendum for due to the timing? Is there any updates expected or was the March 03 update the final one?

Thank You,

[George 4]

Mr. Riley,

For the process multiplier for a fastener, I don't quite understand the Fastener Engagement Length > 2D with the comment "thread length divided by fastener diameter" does the comment equal the engagement length?

George

[Tim Hoyt]

Open question:
How are you been handling addhesives? It says the material is included in the process. What process is that? I need addhesives for shafts to joints in the steering column and a few other places.

[D Collins Jr]

Tim - I've been using "Aerosol Apply," "Liquid Applicator," or "Brush." Essentially, however the adhesives gets applied.

Oh, and speaking of brush, is the brush application not included in the resin application process? if not, I have to go redo all of my composite parts.

[Tim Hoyt]

I'm pretty sure we have to use Resin application, Manual for that. Sorry. Thanks for the input on adhesives.

[D Collins Jr]

Thanks Tim. I currently have them all cost as Resin App Manual, but I'm not sure If I'm supposed to have a line item under process for Brush Application over the same area, or if it's assumed that a brush is being used.

Has anyone gotten any word about the plumbing tables and hose lengths?

[Daleezer]

Mr. Riley

Is the lamination, manual the actual process of laying up the carbon or other composite or is this price included somewhere else? Could this also include the brush application within it?

Thank You,

[Friction]

Anyone,

I don't see banjo bolts or fittings in any of the tables so these must be cost as made?

Also, I don't see the 'official' material density list.

[Pierre-Olivier]

Mr. Riley,
As the welds were never posted on the materials list, and I may not use another brand for cost purposes, I am costing the wheels as the suggested table price. Please let me know if there is any update on those...
Thanks

[Marie21]

Mr Riley,

Will the database application be available prior to April 1st?

I know that it's not an obligation to use it but it would permit us to save a lot of time.

Thank you

[Bill Riley]

This provides a response to all questions on page 5 of this forum.

FryGuy: You can add/remove rows to match your assembly/part heirarchy.

George 4: Correct "unit" always refers to a single item from that line, so a bolt, a brake caliper or anything else will be for a quantity of 1 of those parts.

Tim Hoyt: If you are brazing or soldering your frame use the weld cost and call describe the difference. I will add these processes in the future.

Shave_V: The software won't be available for Virginia. We tried really hard to have it ready but it has taken much longer than I thought to develop and make usable.


Tim Hoyt:
1) You don't need setup for tube preps
2) You don't need setup for welding, that is only for machining
3) Look a the process table in column "H". It lists the multiplier required for each process. Tubing operations have no multiplier required.
4) Correct, tires to wheels uses an interference assembly cost based on mass.

D Collins Jr: You can define the heirarchy that you feel best represents your design. As long as the parts/assemblies are in the right system (as per Pierre-Olivier's response).

Pierre-Olivier: Weld 13" 3-piece aluminum wheels will be listed at $201.50. The shells at $114.00 (basically for the wheel minus center).

Adam C.: The equation is per meter of hose. [Size2] is the length in meters which just scales the equation.

Adam C.: The cost covers the core itself. You should cost as made the fittings, end tanks, etc.

Daleezer: Most of the items you need are probably already in the table (motor, etc.). Cost as made for Virginia because there won't be time to add any more items.

[Bill Riley]

This response covers all questions posted to page 6 at the time this was written:

George 4: (Correction) This refers to the ratio between the length of the thread and the diameter of the bolt. So if you have 20mm of thread screwed into a bracket and the bolt has a 6mm diameter than the ratio is 20mm / 6mm = 3.33 which means you would use the multilier "Fastener Engagement Length > 2D". Not the "> 4D" since 3.33 is less than 4. Hope this clears it up.

Tim Hoyt: Use a process that represents how you applied your adhesive: aerosol, brush, etc. D Collins Jr response is correct.

D Collins Jr: Lamination doesn't include resin application so you will need include resin application, manual just like Tim Hoyt responded.

Daleezer: Yes, "lamination, manual" is the process of placing the composite material onto the mold, around the tube, etc. If you use prepreg then you are done but if you do a wet you need "resin application, manual" or "resin application, infusion".

Friction: Banjo bolts and fittings are planned to be added but we are way behind. You can cost them as made I'm hoping to have them up later today.

Pierre-Olivier: Weld cost given in last post, you're good to go on this whether the web gets updated or not today you can use that cost.

Marie21: I thought it would be done in early January but it has taken much longer then I ever thought possible. I'm just a mechanical engineer, so what do I know.

I expect we'll have the software out in 1-2 weeks, but I realize that I've been saying that for some time.

All: I have tried to answer every question I saw unanswered, if I missed some let me know. I'm going to be working on the tables now, but will be checking back in later to try to support you all. I know there is some pain with the new rules and interpretations and I appreciate you all working with me and together as we navigate the new system.

Bill Riley

[D Collins Jr]

Thanks for the answers Mr. Riley. I appreciate that you are slugging though this process just like we are.

I also need to ask an open question about the "Suspension Mechanism" listed in the suspension system in C-3. Can anyone clarify what this is and what to do with it? Everything else in my suspension system seems to be in the report already, so I guess I'm just not real sure I have one.

[SLK]

Mr. Riley-

I just want to clarify that we do not need to include or mention the assemblies/parts listed in C-3 that we do not have on our vehicle. That is to say, we can divide each of the eight sections as we see fit and do not have to categorize by the assemblies listed??

Also, would a separate assembly or part number be required for things such as "paint - frame" or would the frame assembly number be used in this case?

Thanks!

[Bill Riley]

I have made a correction to my earlier post about engagement length. The table is correct and here is a more detailed explanation:

George 4: (Correction) This refers to the ratio between the length of the thread and the diameter of the bolt. So if you have 20mm of thread screwed into a bracket and the bolt has a 6mm diameter than the ratio is 20mm / 6mm = 3.33 which means you would use the multilier "Fastener Engagement Length > 2D". Not the "> 4D" since 3.33 is less than 4. Hope this clears it up.

[Bill Riley]

D Collins Jr: I believe this refers to inboard suspension parts. If you have everything from you car then don't worry if the titles of the groupings. I didn't write C-3 so I'm not the expert on what each of the headings mean.

SLK: If you don't have them you don't need to mention them. If it is a really obvious part that the judges might expect you might want to mention it, but you don't have to.

Paint a frame doesn't need a part number. The frame should have a part number and painting it would be a line item under processes. Hope this clears it up.

[MrSwa]

Originally posted by Adam C.:
Mr. Riley,

In the plumbing table, all of the hoses have Size1 and Size2 entries under the comments field, but the formula only includes the Size1 parameter. I assume this is incorrect, since the formula that is there currently wouldn't take the length of the hose into account for costing. What is the correct formula for this? Thanks.

Adam C.

Mr. Riley,
We have also run into this problem. Adam was referring to the equation in the table not having a Size2 parameter in it. What is the proper equation for pricing hose? Thanks in advance.

[Bill Riley]

Sorry for the confusion on this. I've changed the comments field to try to be more clear and posted an updated plumbing table.

The cost equation creates a cost for a hose that is for 1 meter of length. So if you have 1/2 meter you need to use half this cost. For 4 meters use 4 times the cost. Using the templates on the web you can simply use the quantity field to scale the equation to represent the actual length of hose you are using.

If you added in a *[Size2] to the equation and used [Size2] as the length in meters you would get the same result. The comment field didn't agree with the equation but I've fixed it now. If you changed the equation you will get the same result so there is no need to change your cost report if you've already filled it out this way. Either will work.

[Friction]

Brake fluid is on the BOM but I can't find it in any of the .xls files.

[Bill Riley]

Brake fluid is considered "Fluid, Oil"

[George 4]

Thank you Mr. Riley those last few posts have cleared up a lot of looming questions.

George

[I hate Cost Reports]

Bill all your effort is much appreciated (seriously)!!!

However, this report SUCKS.
warning to the teams that are only going to MIS or Caly. Get your shit together, seriously.

I have put together a top 10 cost report before and spent probably a quarter the amount of work on that then I have with this one.

Sincerely, tired and cranky. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Geoffct]

What is the cost per pin on a fuse box, it's blank on the sheet and has been for a while.

Also why are there 10 video tutorials for using the application when all but a SELECT few are forced to figure out how to enter all of this onto an excel sheet which was published for "internal team use"? The one pdf tutorial from the workshop helps, but many of the samples seems to be missing steps. Doesn't the beta testing inherently handicap those excluded teams?

I cannot speak for the other teams, but I am incredibly frustrated with this entire process. Many of our simple "off the shelf" parts have had to be reverse engineered taking critical build time and the resultant cost report price is often 2-3X as much as the retail price. The advantage of our team's very cost efficient integration approach has been almost entirely wiped away. Then in addition we have our 5-10 member team trying to complete a virtual build, when we barely have time to complete the real build.

Finally there are updates to the required tables less than 24h before due date. Revising these items on my team comes down to one person updating everything and a final printing. What if we had done as always suggested and sent our report in early? Dynamic changes would be fine in an application, but not when these items are manually entered into an excel sheet.

What is going to happen with changes between a VIR and MIS report? With continually updating tables, will the team be penalized for variations? How about for process revision based on the further clarifications? Do we submit our report with a table reference date? Our team cannot sacrifice another week of build time to this report before VIR.

Despite all of this additional work I feel that our very simple car is not going to be accurately ranked by this new model.

Geoff C. Turner

[Tim Hoyt]

Open:
Why are wheel bearings so much more expensive than the other bearings? We have a Bearing, Double Row, Ball, Deep Groove bearing that we use for our wheels. I'd like to use the regular bearing rather than the wheel bearing. Is that ok?

[FryGuy]

Originally posted by I hate Cost Reports:



I have put together a top 10 cost report before and spent probably a quarter the amount of work on that then I have with this one.


I will second that. Does the new materials list work for anybody? It says its been updated but the link still seems to go to the old one.

[Tim Hoyt]

Hey Guys, venting isn't going to help anything. Humorous, but let's be respectful, eh? Just saying. It's not like things are going to change between now and tomorrow... hmm, it is tomorrow. Whatever, maybe we can start a seperate venting form for that kind of feedback?

[D Collins Jr]

Tim: You have to use the wheel bearing section for wheels. It's because they're bigger or stronger bearings, usually. And if your's aren't, please join the line of people who have parts that suddenly became more expensive from the tables.

Fry: There's only a few new or updated items in the new materials table. Mostly in plumbing.

[Brian McGreevy]

Just postmarked our cost report for Virginia. It was an abysmally long effort over the past week, and especially last two days. We almost got completely screwed while trying to finish the last bits and compile everything when the entire campus' power went down along with all the servers (can't use Pro/E or login to our shop computers w/o).

The report structure is a definite improvement, but after finishing it, I feel that the new format should've waited until the application was finalized. The mountain of work to do it w/o Access, while trying to do well in classes and get a couple hours of sleep, is just too much.

[MrSwa]

I totally agree with Brian. I like the structure, but changing the tables many times throughout the process has been a hassle. Why do we need 5-6 different excel files for materials, processes, etc, when they could easily have been one file on multiple tabs. I understand that this is a new system and bugs have to be worked out, but this is just frustrating.

I will say hats off to Bill and his team for being on top of questions. I know that it must have been/be a heck of an undertaking. This is not a bash on them or any of the work they have done. It's merely my complaints/suggestions for the future.

[cjanota]

I would hesitate to say that just because your cost went up, it destroyed your advantage. It is tough to gage your car until you see what the others come in at cost wise.

[Daleezer]

How are people doing the electronic copy? Are you taking all your excel tables and inserting into Word or just putting all the folders within 1 main folder to email out to the judges?

[George 4]

correct me if I am wrong but I thought I read somewhere that the electronic copy this year was optional?

[Daleezer]

George 4,

It is optional, but it's "highly recommended" which is subjective in itself. I'm just not sure how highly recommended it is.

[George 4]

well in that case considering I already have the cost report setup in word from excel I will probably just turn the word file into a PDF and send it that way.

[MSU AET]

Mr. Riley,

There are two different form examples for the cost report, the fsae-elecbom and the FCA_Inputs. Which of these do we need to fill out and submit for the cost report? If we are supposed to use the FCA_Inputs, do we need to input the missing columns from the elecbom or vice versa? What info categories are required to be submitted? Thank you for your time.

Kris Rysavy

[Todd F]

Mr. Riley,

I have been spending the last week preparing my teams cost report for MIS and the same question keeps arising with my team leaders.

We are designing a car for a customer (the judges) and we will be manufacturing 1000 or 3000 units per year. In reality, we produce 1. So the question arises do we cost like we are producing 1000 or do we cost like we are producing 1?

For instance in APPENDIX C-1 5 Tooling it is stated that there are often multiple tooling available for the same processes and the team must use the tooling that is closest to the actual tooling used in their prototype. However, we are only equipped to make one car, not 1000.

Another example would be our uprights. We do all our own CNC mill work because it is cheaper for us. If we were making 1000 we would cast them and in fact we tried to cast them, but lack the money and could not find a sponsor for this purpose.

So my final question is this: should we cost our car like the underfunded team we are, or should we cost like we actually have facilities to produce 1000 or 3000 cars per year.

Thank you for your time I apologize for being long winded.

[D Collins Jr]

Todd: This was addressed on this forum here:
http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/t...?r=57310958#57310958 (http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/442600868/m/98610338?r=57310958#57310958)

The PVF and other Tooling expenses are explained on fsaeonline.com in Appendix C-1: Cost Models

Good luck!

[Todd F]

David:

Thanks for the help, that pretty much answers my question even though the answer is disappointing. I thought the new cost rules were designed to place all the teams on the same playing field, I guess we need to lean on our engineering department to spend more money on facilities that would help us.

[Burg]

Mr. Riley,

Have you had a chance to review the cost of heat shrink tubing?

What about velcro; will you need an AIR or will you be adding it to the fastener/materials table yourself?

Thank you,
Nicholas Burgwin.

[PBR-keith]

In the FCA File there is an error in calculate cross sectional area.

Starting at line 88.

=IF(Cross_Sections!$B88="Round",PI()*(Cross_Sections!$E88^2-(Cross_Sections!$E88-2*Cross_Sections!$G88)^2),IF(Cross_Sections!$B88="Square",(Cross_Sections!$E88^2-(Cross_Sections!$E88-2*Cross_Sections!$G88)^2),"Shape Not Listed"))

should be

=IF(Cross_Sections!$B88="Round",PI()/4*(Cross_Sections!$E88^2-(Cross_Sections!$E88-2*Cross_Sections!$G88)^2),IF(Cross_Sections!$B88="Square",(Cross_Sections!$E88^2-(Cross_Sections!$E88-2*Cross_Sections!$G88)^2),"Shape Not Listed"))

[George 4]

A question has been posed on our team, and I don't know the answer so if anyone can help it would be appreciated. How is everyone costing their steering racks?

[VTMotorsports09]

Cost steering racks as made

[MSU AET]

Does anyone understand how the whole "part" or "assembly" tabs are supposed to work on the spreadsheet? The equasion to calculate the sub total makes no sense to me and I get really bogus values for anthing I put into the material section. The examples given are very vague and quite confusing. Any help is appreciated. Thanks

Kris

[D Collins Jr]

Kris-
Make sure that you're putting a quatity of 10^-3 for most materials, since the "unit price" is in kilgrams, but your density is probably in grams, so you have to include a conversion factor. As far as the tabs go, I copied them and made template spreadsheets for parts and assemblies, and used part sheets for items that required machining operations.

[MSU AET]

David,

So, if I have 4 rotors I am making out of plates of 20.83 x 20.83 x .635 cm mild steel, @ 7.86 g/cm^3, I should be getting a sub total of $18.55? Correct? Thanks for your help.

Kris

[D Collins Jr]

Kris, I got a total of $19.49 for 4 plates using those dimensions, densities, and $2.25/kg as the table cost for steel. I'm not sure where the difference is between our calculations. It may just be due to different generations of spreadsheets. If that's what you get though, I'd certainly use it.

[andi]

Hi at all,
we use a lot of carbon fiber tubes.
They should cost as made. Thats my problem, because for produce them prepregs will be wound around metal bolts. I cannot find wounding or something like that in the process table.
Does anyone else use carbon fiber tubes and can give me an hint?

Thanks,
Andi

[PatG]

Is the cost application going to be available soon or are we going to have to do our entire cost report the old fashioned way?

[rhb]

I am filing in our cost report at the minute and m a bit confused by the following statement in the BOM tab

'The cost of assemlies on this chart should not include the cost of the parts in the assembly but only the materials, processes, fasteners and tooling in the assembly level.'

Does this mean that the cost of these parts do no go into this table.

Also is it up to the team to add new lines on the BOM under each assy for the parts.

[D Collins Jr]

andi- Use Lamination and a curing process for your tubes, much like any other prepreg part. Don't forget to include a tooling entry for the bolt/rod/mold!

Pat- I wouldn't count on it. Obviously my word is nowhere near official, but if you enter the data into excel by hand, I'd venture to guess that you'll know things better and be further ahead time wise than if you wait on the program (esp. if it isn't released!)

rhb- When I used that spreadsheet, I took it to mean that the line for the assembly shouldn't have the part prices. Then I listed the parts on individual lines under that assembly with their respective prices, and the price on the assembly line was the cost of the assembly, minus the cost of the parts. Basically, just don't double count your part costs.

[rhb]

Could somebody please confirm how they cost a waterjet part, we are cutting various parts on the waterjet and the cost is $0.10 per cm say for instance one of the parts been cut has a perimeter of 20cm and is 0.6cm thick do you take both of these into consideration and if so should the unit not be cm^2.

[Hooker]

rhb,
We are taking the units for waterjetting as meaning only linear distance and the 0.6cm thick is not taken into account.

[Young]

Mr.Riley
I'm doing the frame part of our car, but I'm not sure I use the right English name of each tube of the frame due to the use of language here is not English. For example I know the front hoop and the front anti-roll hoop, but I don't know the name of the hoop between those two. Can I call it sub anti-roll hoop and attach a picture of each structure for the judges in case I use the wrong name of each part. Thank you!
Young
Amoy Racing Team

[FH_Roland]

I have got some new questions:

1. what do i do if i have tools for laminating carbon fiber and those tools are rapid prototyping parts

can i define the rapid prototyping part in the part sheet itself and then take the price to the tooling part of the sheet and take it as if it was a sand core package?

2. how do i cost the cutting of carbon fiber - a handmade composite part has to be cut on the edges and this cutting can't be done by waterjet cutting or a scissor

and our universal solution the dremel powertool is not in the process tables http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

3. as there is no glueing or sticking together defined i currently do that by using the liquid applicator gun (applying the glue) and then adding an assembly operation (even though i'm in the part file) i hope this is acceptable and does not corrupt the meaning of the whole thing

thats all for today

thank you all for doing this

even though i'm cursing the cost report right now i see that once the whole thing is in order it will be easier and more interessting to compete in the cost event

[Michael Royce]

Young,
See if I can help.

The Rules require a minimum of three (3) hoops or bulkheads in the car. Starting at the front and moving rearwards there are:
- The Front Bulkhead, which is just in front of the driver's feet.
- The Front Roll Hoop, which is just in front of the steering wheel, and
- The Main Roll Hoop, which is alongside or just behind the driver's torso (or head).

Very often teams will have another hoop or bulkhead between the Front Bulkhead and the Front Roll Hoop, to add structure near the front pick up points of their front suspension control arms. It sounds as though you are trying to describe a hoop such as this. You might call it an "Intermediate Hoop" or "Intermediate Bulkhead". Does that help?

Don't get hung up on the exact names. American teams don't all use the same words!

[Richi]

Hey you guys, we're from Germany and currently writing our cost report as well!
Or better we're trying to do that....

We are right at the beginning and got a smaller question:
On the one hand Rule nr. 3.22.2 says "but if the car has an on-board fire suppression system, it is not required to
be costed."

Does that mean we shouldn't cost only the parts for such a fire suppression system and we have to cost the assembling of it?
Because in the excel-sheet (BOM) there is a position for the assembly of this system...

Would be nice if somebody could help us!
Thank you!

[Bill Riley]

rhb: Correct, use the linear distance of cut for costing your part using water jet cutting. The thickness is not part of the cost.

FH Roland:
1) I need a little more information about the way you are making your parts. Are the rapid prototype parts making a mold (female or male) that is reusable or is it making a feature of the part that is permanent? For example, if you were making a manifold are you taking a rapid prototype manifold and wrapping it in carbon fiber? The finished manifold would be rapid prototype plastic and carbon fiber. If yes, then you would do what you are proposing which is cost the rapid prototype male manifold then laminate the carbon on top of it. If you vacuum bag and cure it you would simply use oven cure since the vacuum bagging and other processing is included in that step.

If instead you are using a rapid prototype insert to layup on, and then removing from the finished part then you would simply include this as tooling, using the tooling cost. You could consider this composite tooling, since the actual mold to make 1000 units a year would probably not be rapid prototype plastic.

If this doesn't answer your question let me know.

2) Ah, but the dremmel tool is in the tables. Use "Hand Finish - Material Removal". This covers dremmel, air tools, grinders, etc. You could also legitimately have machined this part on a mill/lathe and used "machining" or on a saw using "saw cut".

3) Glueing is listed as either "aerosol apply", "brush apply" or "liquid applicator gun". The glue is free (process time is more than the actual material cost). You are correct to then include the assembly operation. Same for velcro. Cost the velcro and then use a "loose" fit based on mass.

I think we're all suffering through this together but future years will hopefully thank us for pioneering thew way (that's what I tell myself).

Richi: You are correct to exclude the fire supression system. The example sheet has been around for a long time and isn't correct. Do not include the fire suprresion system.

[Abhi Mittal]

Hi All,

We've just started our cost report for the UK event and have run into some issues. Apologies if this has been asked before but I can't seem to find it using search.

On the latest version of the template (v 1.3), on the Assembly worksheet, the processes seem to get their formula values for "Sub Total" from the Part worksheet...am I missing something?

[FH_Roland]

Dear Mr. Riley!

You answer perfectly covered all of my points.
Thanks a lot for all your efforts!

[Bill Riley]

An announcement that formally lists the expectations/requirements for Michigan has been posted on SAE.org. The link is:

http://www.sae.org/servlets/pr...RMULA&RELEASE_ID=978 (http://www.sae.org/servlets/pressRoom?OBJECT_TYPE=PressReleases&PAGE=showCDSNews&EVENT=FORMULA&RELEASE_ID=978)

[Bill Riley]

About the announcement, I know this is going to be the question everyone is asking so here it is:

Question: Why are you adding another requirement one week before the deadline?

Answer: Based on the judging of the Virginia reports we learned that we really need the spreadsheet filled out to feed the scoring data into the system, just like in years past. Originally, we thought we could do this with the data from the cost software, but since we don't have a stable release yet that the you can use, the spreadsheet is needed. While the judges manually entered the data for Virginia they requested we have you submit it with your cost reports. We apologize for the late notice.



Unofficially, with the downsizing in the auto industry and all the buy-outs and seperations we have the fewest number of volunteers every dealing with the cost reports and indeed the overall competition. The judges are working hard and not complaining but when they said they had to hand enter all the information from Virginia and would like the old spreadsheet (updated for the new rules) it seemed like a fair request. I'm sorry we're adding this in now, but we really learned from Virginia that we need this information in this format, especially for an event as large as Michigan.

Once we know what we need for California we will be publishing a similar document. It won't require more than the Michigan event, I'll tell you that right now.

[Bill Riley]

Abhi Mittal

Hi All,

We've just started our cost report for the UK event and have run into some issues. Apologies if this has been asked before but I can't seem to find it using search.

On the latest version of the template (v 1.3), on the Assembly worksheet, the processes seem to get their formula values for "Sub Total" from the Part worksheet...am I missing something?


Abhi Mittal
Electronics, University of Manchester Formula Student

In this format the assembly cost includes the cost of the parts that make it up as well as the cost of the material, processes, fasteners and tooling that are listed at the assembly level.

Think of it this way: if you are buying clothes for a family the cost for the whole family is the cost for the parent (assembly) and children (part). That is why the assembly cost references the totals from the part sheet.

When you use the summary chart for Michigan (if you are competing there) you obviously don't want to include any costs twice so you include the costs for the parts on one line and the cost for the assembly excluding the part cost on the previous line.

[CR]

Out of curiosity and to help all of the teams...

What were some of the common cost report errors made at the Virginia competition?

This process seems to be very new; What are some of things teams have been forgetting to cost?

[PBR-keith]

With the addition of the new required eBOM, I am running into difficulty trying to decide how to lay it out. The downloaded template shows items like master cylinders and calipers in the BOM while I would rather refer to them as a material in the assembly (as they are coming off the material table). This now seems to greatly shorten my eBOM. Will I run into problems with the judges due to lack of detail in my eBOM? The cost of the items will be included in the total "material" cost for that assembly.

I quick reply is greatly appreciated as the late requirment addition means some rather drastic changes to formatting.

Thanks

Keith

[Abhi Mittal]

Dear Mr Riley,

Thanks for your reply, but I don't think I phrased my question correctly. I understand the assembly is meant to include all the parts within it, but I assume this is dealt with by the Parts table on the Assembly worksheet.

If you look at the formula in cell I39 for example (Assembly worksheet), it refers to cells in row 40 on the part worksheet. These cells are not even used.

Thanks in advance.

[Young]

Thank you Michael Royce. It helps.
Also I have a few more questions.
1. In the BOM spreadsheet,there is a Solenoids component in the Electrical System, and we think it's the same with Spark Plug Coil. We find in the tlMaterials, Spark Plug Coil belongs to the Engine system, and the price is included in the engine cost. Does that mean we don't need to calculate the price of Solenoinds (Spark Plug Coil) in the Electrical system assemly?
2.Also in the Electical system there are some components we don't use in our car. Would that be Ok if we just don't calculate the price of those components even though they are shown/required in the BOM spreadsheet?
Thank you very much!
Young
Amoy Racing Team

[PBR-keith]

Solenoids in the electrical section would be for pneumatic shifting.

You probably only have to cost what is on your car.

Keith

[Hooker]

Hey, question to teams on the process item "hand - start only" in the fasteners category. We think it's pretty safe to assume that every fastener is going to get started by hand, which would imply that that cost should be included in the wrench or ratchet line. On the other hand, the "hand - start only" line is included in the table. This being said, how are teams handling this part of the fastener processes?

And, same topic to Bill, was the intent to use the "hand - start only" for most every fastener along with the finishing process, or would there be special circumstances that require adding this line?

[Jeff Freeman]

Mr. Riley,

I would like to start by thanking you as well as everyone else who has been promptly answering questions. You have been a well of knowledge. Now for my questions:

1)In order to fix (quite nearly) everything to my team's composite body, we are needing to use potting inserts. I noticed that Potting is included in the process table, but I couldn't find "potting inserts" in the materials or fasteners tables. Is the cost of the inserts implied in the potting process the same way adhesive is included in the application process, or do I need to submit an AIR? On the same note, which dimension is the unit (cm) measuring (diameter, depth, circumference, etc.)?

2)I am just getting started with this whole ordeal, and I am unsure about where I should account for inter-system assemblies. For instance, the suspension connects to the wheel. Should I include the connection to the wheel as part of the suspension system, the wheel system, or can/should I make a "full car assembly" that accounts for those finishing touches that turn a pile of systems into a car?

3)I am also having issues syncing the cost application to the database. I walked through the powerpoint tutorial and contacted Kathleen McDonald. Is there anything I should do while I wait, or should I give up on that for this year and just use the excel files?

Regards,
Jeff Freeman
Cal Poly FSAE Team

[Alex_UK]

Hi all

Jeff Freeman mentioned the cost application - has this now been released? I can't find a download link... www.fsaeonline.com (http://www.fsaeonline.com)

Thanks!
Alex
Cardiff University

[Tim Hoyt]

Alex, the cost application has not been released and there is still no indication as to when it will be done so proceed without it.

[andi]

Hi all,
the process table gives an price for Suspension Setup per corner. What means the phrase "per corner"?

Thanks,

Andreas

[Jeff Freeman]

Alex,

I am currently using (or rather, trying to use) the beta version, update #8. I was unaware that I was using a beta version of the application, so thank you for bringing that to my attention.

I don't know if I am allowed to do this, but here is a link to the download. http://www.collegiatedesign.org/download/download.htm

Good luck,
Jeff Freeman
Cal Poly FSAE 09

[Alex_UK]

great! thanks for that!

Alex

[Todd F]

I've noticed a major procedure not present in the listed procedures. Splinning? Has anyone dealt with this?

Thanks

[R.Trickett]

Todd,

See my post on page 2 and Bill's response. That may help you. Form cutting is how we've been costing our splined parts so far (though i'm told by the engineer on that project that the splining we get done is not form cutting, but we didn't have time to address that prior to the cutoff.)

[R.Trickett]

Bill,

I apologize if this has already been addressed through the rules or other announcements. This is the first year our team is attending 2 competitions, Michigan and California. While the rules state that a single cost report can be submitted for Michigan and California (by the Michigan deadline) may we also submit 1 for Michigan by the April 1st deadline and work to improve it further by the May 1st deadline and submit this improved one for California?

Thanks Bill.

[Claudia Del Vecchio]

Dear Mr Riley,
I wanted to ask you where do I have to insert the plumbing in cost report, becausethere isn't a table like the material or the processes...Do I have to insert them under material?

Thank you very much

[Thomas MuWe]

Hey,

I have a question concerning the finish of one of our parts. After the manufacturing these parts are heattreated. This cure is not included in the process cost table for steel (!). How should we handle that? Also another process (browning) is used to treat that part.
Thank you very much in advance.

Best regards,

Thomas Mueller-Werth

suspension jr08evo
joanneum racing graz

[Bill Riley]

Table Updates
I have just posted updated versions of most of the tables to fsaeonline.com. These include many of the AIR's we have received but not all. We will continue to work to process them and get them into the tables throughout the week and weekend for Michigan.

Cost Software
Jeff Freeman posted a link to download a beta test version of the software. He wasn't supposed to do this and will now be famous for all time. But since he did anyone who wants to download and try the application go ahead. I have removed it from the former link and now made it available for download from fsaeonline.com. If you already downloaded it please read the disclaimer that appears when you download from fsaeonline.com so you understand the limitations with this current release. There are several known problems that we are trying to work through. If you try to use the software for your Michigan event you may be sorry, but at the same time it maybe useful for some of you, so I've decided to put it out there and let you all decide what you want to do yourselves. Remember, whatever you send in hard copy will be judged for accuracy and it is your responsibility to verify all information before you send it.

The table updates that we have been making aren't necessarily in the application and the data that is stored when you download is very old. To get the changes we have been making you have to synchronize your data with our server. I have to put in the new authentication numbers that were distributed before that will work.

[Bill Riley]

Out of curiosity and to help all of the teams...

What were some of the common cost report errors made at the Virginia competition?

This process seems to be very new; What are some of things teams have been forgetting to cost?

I am not a cost judge, I'm on the Rules Committee so I haven't reviewed the cost reports for Virginia. My advice: if every gram of mass on the car is accounted for in the cost report you are off to a good start, from the valve stems to the head rest foam and everything in between.

[Bill Riley]

Keith: I think in most cases master cylinder would be a part or assembly as well as a material. For example the master cylinder, reservoir and bolts might make up the part or the assembly called master cylinder. I think the format is less important than everything on the car is in the report.

Abhi Mittal: Cell I39 was an error. When I copied the sheet I didn't realize the links were to the Part worksheet. I have updated them and posted a new version to fsaeonline.com. I hope this is more clear now and if you have any other observations or questions please let me know.

Young: The spark plug coil is included in engine costs. This is a change for this year so the example is old. But it could also refer to a shifter solenoid or other actuator like Keith suggested. Even if a part is listed do not include it if you do not have it on your car. Your Cost Report must be an accurate reflection of your design so if your design has three wheels (which is illegal) your cost report should have three wheels even if I have four in an example. You're going to get disqualified but at least you saved 25% on wheels and tires.

Hooker: "Hand - Start Only" doesn't need to be included for every fastener. This is for 1/4 turn wing nut Dzus lock, bayonet fittings or other things like that. Otherwise you spend a lot of time and effort listing hand start for every fastener. Sorry for the confusion.

Jeff Freeman: My good friend, Mr. Freeman, kindly send your Beta testing reports to Kathleen. Thanks. Now for potting compound, the cm is the linear perimeter of the insert being potted. You'll need to send an AIR for the potting compound you are using as I haven't gotten one yet. I may build it into the process but I need to get some data on what teams are using. Put the system interaction costs wherever you want. My suggestion is start from the frame as the datum "0". Then, in the order you add parts to the car in real life include the labor and fasteners with the item being added. So the wishbone inner bolts go the wishbone. The wishbone outer bolts go to the upright. The wheel nut goes to the wheel. But there is no right and wrong other than what is in Appendix C-3 on fsaeonline.com. And you should give up and use Excel for Michigan. I'm hoping to have the software done with a few weeks to spare for California. Though you are using an older version of the Beta if you want to upgrade to the newer one I put on fsaeonline.com.

Andi: Sorry if this term is not in popular usage. Think of a corner as the six (or more) links that control one wheel. So a standard inboard suspension setup on "one corner" would include castor/camber/toe on one wheel along with ride hide adjustements, etc.

Todd F: In my experience splines are cut either with a "form cutter" which is listed or by broaching, EDM, etc. If you are using a process to produce splines not in the tables send an email to Kathleen McDonald. I don't have a form for adding processes.

R. Trickett: Two reports are acceptable. We were trying to reduce workload, not prohibit changes from event to event which are allowed.

Claudia: I'm sorry for the confusion. Plumbing is a material, and I have now included it in the materials table. It was easier for me to generate the initial listing as a separate file. But all plumbing should be tracked as a material except the items listed in the fasteners table (like hose clamps, etc.).

Thomas: Heat treatment does not need to be included in the cost of the part. Browning should also not be included just like anodizing is not included. We know it would be more accurate to ask you to include it but we would have no way to confirm at the competition. That is why all steel costs the same, all aluminum costs the same, etc.

[Jeff Freeman]

Mr. Riley: I'm sorry about any complications I may have caused by posting the Beta version. I was unaware that they were secret, and I hope you will forgive me. On another note, thanks for the help and advice.

[CR]

Anyone have any luck loading the so called "secret" cost app? We just get errors while trying to load it.

I think it should be noted that it 5-7 days until the due date for Michigan. Is it worth still trying to convert excel spreadsheets to cost app?

[Bill Riley]

Jeff- It's okay. I just hope people don't use the software and then right before the deadline find a problem and expect me to be able to fix it when we've been working on it since September.

CR - My opinion is: stay the course with Excel. It might be more work but you are in control. The Beta testers have been using the software and while some of them are getting very close after working with it for two months there are still bugs that are keeping them from being able to finish their report and they are having to use Excel to fill in the gaps.

[CR]

Thanks for the quick reply Mr. Riley.

One more question, how big are the gaps between generations in the spreadsheet. (1.1 - 1.4)

We haven't found big differences between spreadsheets / fixing problems as needed per spreadsheet.

[CR]

Where do you want fastners put in the BOM.

Can they be included at the assembly level? (do they still need there own part if part of an assembly / part ?)

[rules are in general very vague and contradicting]

[Jeff Freeman]

CR: Mr. Riley has explained a few times now that where different parts appear within the BOM is up to your discretion so long as everything is included and you follow the general guidelines from Appendix C-3.

I personally wouldn't give them their own part number. Just include them where they seem most logical (probably within the assembly)

[PatG]

We are putting our cost report together and we are having trouble with the Wheel assembly.

How are we supposed to cost putting the tires on the wheels?

We guessed just Assemble, 5kg, Interference but are unsure

Any help would be greatly appreciated

[Jeff Freeman]

Mr. Riley,

You've done a sufficient job at scaring me away from using the Beta version. I sent Kathleen the error report a couple days ago (she still hasn't replied), but I won't be using the Cost Application until you release a version that calculates correctly. Now I'm looking at the newly updated Excel Template and have a few questions:

1) Why does the Part page have 2 fields for FileLink1,2,3? I am currently under the impression that each part/assembly can have up to 3 files each. Is that correct?

2) What is the Cross_Sections page for, and when do I need to use it?

3) Under the Tooling section, what is the FracIncld field for? It doesn't seem to affect the calculation. On this note, how/where do I take account of the "Number of Parts Using Exact Tooling" as mentioned in 5.1 of Appendix C-1?

[MSU AET]

Mr. Riley,

1.) We are running synthetic grease in the diff instead of oil, would I still cost it as fluid,oil?

2.) What is the "P/N Check" field for in the excel file?

3.) When costing an assembly, should all the individual parts be listed in the BOM or can the assembly just be listed alone with a refference to a separate page that breaks down the components of the particular assembly. For example, the fuel filter, filter mounts, and fittings are shown as parts within the fuel filter assembly in the eBOM, but could they be removed from the BOM and only listed in the FCA_inputs spreadsheets?

Thanks,
Kris

[Hooker]

PatG,

The tires have been mentioned before. You are correct to think Assemble, interference (the weight depends on your tires).

[MSU AET]

Mr. Riley,

Would powder coating and sandblasting fit under the Process category of annodizing? If not, would I need to send in an AIR for them?

[Michael Puckett]

Mr. Riley,

Are threaded inserts for tubing listed anywhere in the cost tables? I haven't managed to find any. Are we just supposed to cost them as if we made them or do I need an AIR? It would be nice if there was a formula since the sizes vary across our car.

[ErinK]

Mr. Riley,

I saw your post that said that you must put in the new authentication numbers for us to be able to sync our data. Do you have a projected time frame for when this will be done?

We are competing at the California event and would like to be able to use the Access application if possible.

Thanks for all your help.

[Michael Puckett]

In addition to the inserts, I don't see any liquid-liquid heat exchanges. We have a Mocal oil cooler that uses the coolant from the radiators for cooling. Do I need to submit an AIR for this as well? Also, is there anything avaiable for jackscrews? I didn't see anything on fasteners regarding them.

Additionally, what are we supposed to do if we weld something that doesn't require tooling? It's just a small part that you would clamp together with vise grips.

[Wes Burk]

Mr. Riley or anyone else,

Tooling for a tube spaceframe:
1.) If you have a mount such as a damper mount with two tabs (on either side of the spherical bearing), should you count this as one or two fixturing points?

2.) For our frame manufacture we secured 14 points on the frame and the rest of the tubes were placed in by eye. Should we use 14 fixturing point for our frame tooling or should we have one for each tube?

[Bill Riley]

CR: There were a few cells that had the equation wrong. I'm guessing a lot of teams saw them and fixed them on their own. Fasteners can belong to an assembly or to a part. They don't need a part number.

PatG: Yes, use assembly, interference.

Jeff: File links are from the software so you can attach drawings, pictures, etc. You don't need them in the Excel file, but I included it in case the "cost compiler" wanted the team members to fill out where the files were located on the team computer. Cross sections are for you to calculate the mass of tubing, etc. The idea was that team members and judges think in terms of tubing size and length, not mass. So it was an easier way to present the information to say 1" x 0.049", 36" long. So you could describe the cross section once and not every time you use it. That isn't a requirement but it is the way the Access Program works. FracIncld is "Fraction Included". Say your front and rear wing use the same tooling then you would have the tooling appear for both the front and rear wing and set "Fraction Included" to 0.50 (50%).

MSU AET: Yes, use the oil for all greases. P/N check just determines if your part number follows the right format. That's the intent, to try to catch possible typos. Yes, those other "materials" could be listed on the fca_inputs only and one part or assembly could be on the eBOM. Powder coating would be "aerosol apply" and then "oven cure". Sandblasting you would have to find something close on the process table or send in a process AIR (no form, just email us).

Michael: Threaded inserts should be cost as made. I've added liquid-to-liquid heat exchangers so you don't need an AIR. Same cost as the other heat exchangers, so you can use this in your Report. In production the welded parts would probably have a small fixture that clamps in two places so you could include tooling with 2 points.

Wes: When it comes to fixturing think of it from the fixture side, not the car side. So in this case you would probably have a single fixture feature with the tab spacing built in to locate the damper tabs, so I would think this would be a single point. But use this general methodology. 14 sounds about right for a frame. You don't need fixturing for each tube because we all know that usually you fixture the front and rear suspension bays, some features in between and do the rest by eye.

[Bill Riley]

Prior Cost Table Update

I wanted to point out in the last table update 26-Mar I fixed a few problems we found with the banjo fittings, added more descriptive text to several items (so when you search for radiator you can find heat exchanger for example). I also clarified what is included in the engine cost. This clarified that the air induction and fuel injection systems are not included (as per Appendix C-3).

In general, I would recommend sorting by date and reviewing newer items.

[Michael Puckett]

Thanks for the quick replay Bill, I'm sure you're getting worked pretty hard like all of us right now. Another quesion I have regarding composites. Can we cost the material in bulk as opposed to per ply? So for instance we make a plate that's 4 plies thick. On the cost tutorial on the website it lists each ply independently in the assembly, but could we just list the weight of one ply and then multiply the entire entry by 4 for the number of plies? The same would go for lamination where we repeat the same process and just make a note of quantity.

[Bill Riley]

Michael: Yes, you can abbreviate the steps shown as long as you end up with the right answer.

[TorqueWrench]

Mr Riley,

I have been searching through the materials list and cannot find "Solid Axle" listed on there. I know an AIR was submitted a while ago, but should I just cost this as made seeing as it didn't make the list?

I also noticed that specifically fuel injection and air induction systems are not included in the cost of the engine. Just to clarify, should we be costing the exhaust out as well? It makes sense to, but I wanted to check seeing as a good amount of equipment is included in that engine cost.

[Michael Puckett]

Are we supposed to cost external threading using a die under Threading, External (Machining) or could it just be considered a variation of tapping?

Also, is there an entry for plain roller bearings? I see tapered roller and thrust needle, but no plain roller.

I never did get an answer on jackscrews either. Should I submit an AIR or just cost them as if we made them?

[Bill Riley]

Chris: I'm working on AIR's right now but not everything is going to make it. The answer on the solid axle is going to be cost it as made. The bearings and other purchased items are probably already in the materials table. Exhaust should be cost as made and is not included in the engine cost.

Michael: I'm not sure when, but I added "Threading, External" and "Threading, Internal" some time ago to the process table. Make sure you have the latest version. That can be used for machining threads. A 'normal' ball bearing is listed as "Bearing, Ball, Radial". Bushings (no rolling elements) are cost as made. If you are looking for a normal needle bearing use "Bearing, Cylindrical Roller" or "Bearing, Needle". Same bearing but I put it under both names to avoid confusion. I haven't seen the jackscrew AIR yet. You can cost them as made if they don't show up in time in the tables.

[Bill Riley]

Add Item Request Update

We have received about 860 items to be added to the tables and have worked through about 560 of them. I've done more today but we aren't going to have them all done by Wednesday, and even if we did you all would need more time to react then two days. I'm putting together a policy document, the summary of which is if your items aren't in the tables X days before the deadline you can include them in your addendum with no surcharge (penalty). So in the mean time you can estimate the final table cost and include that and then "fix" the estimates in the addendum without the 25% penalty.

I hope you see that we are attempting to be fair to teams who submitted their AIR's on time and through no fault of their own the items were not added to the tables.

[Michael Puckett]

So I know this is pretty late, but I was looking at Appendix C-3 and had some questions. Is this essentially how the BOM tab on the spreadsheet should look like (minus parts)? Some of the entries don't seem appropriate since they are listed under other assemblies (mainly the tube preps, cuts, and welds under frame). I thought that these values would be included in the processes column of frame, not their own "assembly". Are we stuck with the assembly layout that is listed in C-3?

[MCEH]

Hello, Mr. Riley

I have a few Questions

*About FCA Input Spread Sheet

1. Material
Must cross section goes to only three categories (Round/Square/Plate) ?
What is the deadline thickness of plate as millimeter?
My team use metal rectangular bar. Can Icalculate area to my option?

2. Is the difference between "Assembly" and "Part tab" 'Part number"?
ex) A0001 -> Assembly , 00001 -> Part

3. I wrote down items which is on the material table to “Material" on assembly tab.
What do I have to write on "Part"?

* Material - About density
Do I have to find the density unit of raw material? Is choosing of unit free?
ex) my team use : unit: kg/cm^3 , steel: 7.8*E-3, Aluminum: 2.7*E-3, Brass: 8.2*E-10, Teflon: 2.4*E-3, etc
Is it right as above?

Additional question : There is duplicated base number on brake system(BR) of eBOM.
-> 00004 Brake Discs - Disks ,00004 Brake Line - Flexible.

Thanks ~

[Pierre-Olivier]

MCEH,
(Mr. Riley please correct me if I'm wrong)
1. You can (and should) calculate your own area

2. more or less... you shouldn't have parts to list in a part tab

3. Parts that are costed "As Made" and that you have filled out a part tab for

*You can choose whatever units you want as long as you calculate your total correctly

-> you make your own numbers

If you read the thread from the beginning, I bet you will find the answers to most questions you might come up with about the cost report...

Hope this helped.

[MSU AET]

Is there a preferred paper size for the hard copy? The extended width of the spreadsheets this year does not allow for them to be printed 1 sided on 8.5x11 paper. Is legal size or 11x17 permitted? Any other requirements for the hard copy?

[AkronZipsRacing09]

Open/"Pierre-Oliver": Question on Formatting:


I would assume this is a basic formatting question, and "Pierre-Olivier" it should relate to what you have said in your previous posts. In my cost report I have been trying to follow the basic outline for the Mich eBOM. So I have used what should be correct, but please correct me if wrong. I have been Making Several different Assemblies for each subsystem and putting the parts,materials, Processes, Fasteners, and Tooling in each Assembly, but in this essence I am not sure I will need any EXTRA Part Tabs since I am going so in-depth with my Assembly pages. So I will give an example which will help you determine if I am doing this correctly, It relates to the suspension Section.

For Suspension: I have a total of around 10 Assemblies,[SIMILAR TO THE eBOM FORMAT]. I have been going in-depth with my assemblies w is this OK? hich might be why I don't have any "PART" tabs, is this OK? That I only have Assembly Tabs? I am figuring by going in-depth with the Assemblies will make it easier for formatting.
Here is another question that relates to the "PART" section under an Assembly Page. I could see other teams getting confused by this. My view-point was that for example I have a Push/Pull Rod Assembly and I will list below what I have for each section on my Assembly File. Please Review and see if it is correct Formatting?
1.)PART: "IS THIS FOR PARTS THAT MAKE UP THE ASSEMBLY FROM THE MATERIALS LIST?"
Item Order=1 Part=(Rod End, Industrial) Cost=2.50$per Quantity = 8

2.)MATERIAL: "All materials needed to make up this Assembly?"
= Aluminum "For inserts on ends of Push Rods"
= Carbon Fiber Tube "Which are Cost as Made so I will included Processes below in the procedure to make"

3.)Process:
= Cure Room Temperature
= Machining "for Aluminum Inserts

4.) Fasteners
= Bolt, GRADE AN
= Nut, GRADE AN
= Washer, GRADE AN

5.) Tooling
= Lamination "For Carbon Tubes
= Resin Application "For Tubes"
= Threading Internal "For Rod End"
= Liquid Applicator Gun "For Putting Adhesive on Aluminum Inserts.


----SORRY THIS POST WAS SO LONG, but I wanted to go in-depth so I dont have to repeat any questions. I have done this formatting for nearly every subsystem so I am hoping it is correct, If not I guess I should have asked this question earlier.

THANKS AGAIN!

[Bill Riley]

Michael: Yes, the format is not perfect for the new rules and you should rearrange as you think appropriate.

MCEH:
1) Cross section can be the cross sectional area of an arbitrary shape. So an I-beam, or whatever you want, just type in the area, but you should attach a sketch or some other documentation to explain the cross section.
2) Assemblies begin with "A", parts begin with numbers 0, 1, 2, etc. The assembly tab is basically the same as parts but includes a list of the parts that are in the assembly. Think of it as a parent and the parts are the children.
3) You create parts and assign them part numbers. Materials, Processes, Fasteners and Tooling then belong to a part or an assembly.
Density: the density should match the other units, so if you are using square mm for area and mm for length the density must be in kg/mm^3. If your units are consistent then your math will work out.
Part numbering: the eBOM is just an example to show formatting. Don't read too much into the examples or the duplicate part numbers.

Pierre-Olivier: Absolutely right on everything (I wish I had seen you replied before duplicating your answer).

MSU AET: You can scale to fit, or use more than one page. Believe it or not rule 3.8.1 says must be 8 1/2 x 11 or A4 (not legal).

Ben: It's okay to use a "flatter" BOM structure and have only assemblies under systems - not what I envisioned but not illegal. The only thing I see in your post is that resin application, threading and liquid applicator gun are not tooling but processes. Only items in the tooling Cost Table should be listed in Tooling. That's a general rule, so if an item is in the Process table it should be listed as a Process in the Cost Report.

[Michael Puckett]

Just for some clarification, someone earlier remarked about the setup cost per corner for suspension adjustments and mentioned shims. Do we need to cost any shims we use or are they included in the corner setup price?

[AkronZipsRacing09]

One more question, it may be irrelevant, but is there a SPECIFIC time cost reports must by postmarked by on Wednesday? I couldn't find anything on the SAE website.


Also Bill thanks for your help! I must have made a mistake when I posted that because I looked at my Push/Pull Rod Assembly and the only item I had under Tooling was Lamination...But I appreciate the quick response....

[AkronZipsRacing09]

Also can someone give me an example on Costing Carbon Fiber Tubes as Made? Currently I am using 3 PLYs of Carbon Fiber Sheets and then multiplying by the Surface area? Is there another way on doing this?

[Bill Riley]

Michael: The shim cost is not included. The labor to change shims in the setup is included in the labor process of setting up the corner.

Ben: The latest you can find a post office to post mark on the deadline is the latest you can mail it. Sounds like you've got it right on the tubes.

[Bill Riley]

I'm signing off and the day job will keep me from checking tomorrow so I hope the veterans of VIR will assist the Michigan teams as they are able, and as they have been doing to date.

Thanks,

Bill

[Bill Riley]

One last thing, I think we're caught up on actual cost questions with the exception of authentication number requests and AIR's. The AIR's aren't going to be done by tomorrow but hopefully you all saw my earlier post to estimate the final table cost and then you will be able to correct any differences on those items in the addendum without penalty. The "legal" wording will be available soon, this is paraphrased.

[AkronZipsRacing09]

General Question

We are running Motec SDL Dash Display and I was wondering if anyone might know how I should go about costing it. I haven't found it on the cost material table. Anyone have any advice?

[MCEH]

One more question

* What does "Item Order" in the items as below means?

Part, Materials, Processes, Fasteners and Tooling table


Thanks~!

[Kyle Roggenkamp]

Here's another question: We're building our own tachometer-it's going to consist of only electrical components ie resistors, capaicitors, diodes, etc... How should I cost this?

[AkronZipsRacing09]

Do any other teams make 13" 1 Piece Magnesium Wheels in House? I am going to have to Cost our wheels as Student Built, but I dont see a 13" 1-Piece Magnesium Wheel "student built section". I am assuming that it may have been forgotten, but please correct me if I am wrong.


MCEH - From what I have taken Item Oder is just a place filler. On my Templates I have just listed item order from 10 - 100 increasing by Ten's. There was a post previously that said to do something similar because for example: you will fill each of these sections up initially with Parts, Processes, Fasteners, Tooling and then later you want to add something between one of the fasteners or processes you will be able to put a "Item Order Number" in between one of the items already there(IE: If it comes between Item order 10 and 20 then you could put a number 15 in between.)I hope this helps.

[Zhefei Li]

I am figuring this out as we go as well, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Ben: If you have not submitted an AIR for the Motec SDL Dash Display yet, do so and estimate a cost yourself (list price/2 or something) for the Michigan deadline. That may not be the best option, but would be what I would do to keep from pulling all my hair out.

Since you're costing your wheels as student built anyway, I don't think there will be a problem if you list it as "13" 1-pc Mag, student built."

MCEH: I believe the "Item Order" column is just an index to keep track of line items. Same deal as what Ben said.

[Bill Riley]

Zhefei Li is correct in the posted response. Here's a bit more information. On the wheels you can go ahead and cost them as made if you made them, that is perfectly legal. Just include all the materials, processes, fasteners and tooling that go into it, you don't even need to include the "student built", that is just the way we tell you it is okay to do cost it that way in the tables, but if you do include it that is fine, too, and can be easier to read.

On the tach, if you make it yourself there are analog gages, housings, and the other electronic components in the tables. If you drive it of a controller then you can include the chassis control module to drive it.

[SQ]

I also have a question about a tachometer. We have an LED tach made by a faculty member of our department and given to us. How do we cost that?

[Zhefei Li]

Originally posted by SQ:
I also have a question about a tachometer. We have an LED tach made by a faculty member of our department and given to us. How do we cost that?
You should cost it as made, using its parts and processes required. Good luck

[MCEH]

Hello, Mr. Riley and Teams

What Does "Fraction Included" means ??
*in the Tooling Table (eBOM)

[Zhefei Li]

Originally posted by MCEH:
Hello, Mr. Riley and Teams

What Does "Fraction Included" means ??
*in the Tooling Table (eBOM)

I took it to mean the number of parts on each car produced from that exact set of tooling. That is my interpretation of Section 5 of Appendix C-1 from the cost website.

Which leads to what seems to be a typo in the formula in the FCA_Inputs template (Cell I54 and I55 in the Assembly sheet). Currently, is:

=D54*F54/G54*H54

Should be:

=D54*F54/(G54*H54)

It's correct in the part sheet.

[Marco Russi]

We are building a dashboard composed by:
- display lcd;
- display 7 segments;
- microcontroller and relative hardware.
In the material table there is a Dashboard student-built at 20$ (control module) instead in electronics there are lcd and 7 segments displays but there aren't microcontroller, passive components, PCB, etc...
Should we use the first solution or the second one?
We have the same problem with automatic gear shift and variabile geometry aspiration.

Best Regards.

[Claudia Del Vecchio]

Hi Mr Riley,

We still have some question about the Cost

1- For the parts which are made in Carbon Fiber, ii t necessary to cost the tooling even if it is a flat surface?

2- how do I have to cost the rectangular holes made by hand on a carbon plate? Like a cut (scissor/knife) or like a NOn metallic cutting?

3- How do I have to cost the holes on a carbon plate?

4- For the laser cutting do I have to consider also the machining install and remove?

5- On the cost tutorial about the composite part for the lamination there is a multiplier value, but if I look at the multiplier value table there is another value for the composite. Why?


Thank you very much

[Christian]

Hello Mr. Riley,

I want to cost our frame and have some questions.

1) Do I have to cost each tube separate or can I cost all tubes which have the same outside diameter and wall thickness in one position?

2) Should I cost the tubes in the assembly tab or in the part tab? Means every single tube as a part ("child") and the whole frame as an assembly ("parents") or is it possible to cost the whole frame as an assembly - with the tubes in the "materials" position?

Thank you very much!

[MCEH]

Please pardon my ignorance ~
I have a few Questions

1. Instruments and Wiring (Electronics) - Wire Harness / Connectors

I wonder whether " Make or Buy "

My Team purchased this Item as 'Honda OEM Parts'

Please I want more detail explaination about "Wire Harness"

2. Does "Shields (helmet)" correspond to which item in the material table?

[D Collins Jr]

Sorry if you needed these yesterday Michigan, but i'll try answering a few of these questions.

Claudia: 1 - yes. every part requires tooling. 2 - If its a post cure operation, i would use a machine tooling cut (form cutter, waterjet, etc.), pre-op, i would use scissors/knife. 3. I would use drilled holes process or waterjet cut. 4 - i think so. 5. the "tutorial" examples use some pretty old data from very early versions of the tables and rules

Christian: This issue was discussed a few pages ago. what's probably the easiest (and consequently, what I did), was to cost the frame as one part made of steel and anything that you bond to it. Then you can also include any machining, finishing, or prep operations that you did to the individual tubes (for example, drilled holes and tube bends). This makes it a really easy sheet to put together as opposed to making each tube a part.

MCEH: 1 - Wiring Harnesses should be cost as made. use the connectors, wires, joining and cleaning processes (and whatever else you need to complete it) from the tables to put together your harness cost. Unless of course the tables have been updated to include a CBR harness, in which case, by all means, use that. 2 - Unless something has changed substantially, helmets do not need to be cost.

Good Luck!

[Marie21]

Does somebody know what the real case scenario will look like?

Marie-Michelle

[MattHill_WWU]

We're considering using vinyl graphics on our car instead of painting it this year - would we cost the vinyls as 'Plastic, PVC' or do we need to do an AIR for that?

Regards,
Matt Hill
Western Washington University

[andi]

Hi,

Marie: last year in Hockenheim we had to show three main cost experiences and what we would do different, if we have the chance to build the same car again.

Matt: the 2009 Formula SAE Rules say in point 3.22.1 Finishes:
"... Any finishes (paint, polish, etc.) that are only used to beautify need not to be costed..."
So if your vinyl graphics are only to make your car beautiful and not for rust protection etc. you don´t have to cost it.

Regards, Andi

[Young]

Hello anyone,
I have a question on tube bends. When we bend a tube once, the quantity of the process should be one, and twice it's two. Am I right? But what if we bend it as an arched structure? Should the quantity of the process be one or anything else? Thank you!

[SQ]

On the tach, if you make it yourself there are analog gages, housings, and the other electronic components in the tables.

Capacitors, transistors, resistors, silicon board, 16 pin DIP chip and holder... none of this is in the table. Processes?

It appears that you guys, realistically, aren't allowing us to build anything electronic.

[CsunFsae]

Hi Bill,

We need a little help understanding the Cost Report BOM and how to List parts and assemblies because we cannot get the Beta software to run and will have to do this manually. The confusion is in the fact that the "Assembly_1" sheet on the FCA_Inputs.xls form lists a matrix to put in Part Costs.

For example, the tires are an unmodified purchased parts, therefore do not require a "part_1" page filled out. However, they do require an "assembly" to the vehicle. Does this mean that we list the Tire and price as a "part" on the BOM (i.e. 00001), then fill out the Assembly_1 sheet to describe the assembly process to the car and list it separately on the BOM (i.e. A0001)???
OR, do we fill out just an assembly sheet and put the price of the tire into the matrix, (listing the part and part price) & only list the assembly line item on the BOM because then it already includes the price of the tire?

Example #2: The tutorial for the A-arms says to do a part detail for the bearing cups separate from the A-arm, and then cost the A-arm as a whole part instead of an assembly. Does this mean that we would list the bearing cups as a part on the BOM, the A-arms as a part on the BOM, and then a separate line item for the A-arm assembly on the BOM? OR, would we just fill out the Assembly sheet on teh FCA_Inputs document, and list the price of the bearing cups part in the matrix for part and part cost at the top???

Please help us understand, we would really appreciate the help in clearing up our confusion.

[Abhi Mittal]

SQ: We had the same issue with electronics, but if you look in the materials table, there are plenty of student built "control modules". These include the costs of components and PCBs etc...

[Jeff Freeman]

CsunFsae: If you read through the previous posts, you will find an underlying theme that they don't really care that much how you organize the report as long as everything is accounted for and you follow the main guidelines found in appendix C-3.

As I understand it, if you are going to have something listed in the "parts matrix" on the assembly page, you should have a part page corresponding with it. To take your wheel and tire example, you could cost the assembly on one page, the tires on a connected part page, and the wheels on another. Or, you could cost them all as just one assembly page in which you have the wheels and tires listed as materials.

That's at least how I understood it.

--
Jeff Freeman
Cal Poly FSAE

[Bill Riley]

Virginia Real Case Posted

The real case scenario for the Virginia event has been posted to SAE.org. The link is:

http://www.sae.org/servlets/pr...RMULA&RELEASE_ID=983 (http://www.sae.org/servlets/pressRoom?OBJECT_TYPE=PressReleases&PAGE=showCDSNews&EVENT=FORMULA&RELEASE_ID=983)

[Bill Riley]

Which leads to what seems to be a typo in the formula in the FCA_Inputs template (Cell I54 and I55 in the Assembly sheet). Currently, is:

=D54*F54/G54*H54

Should be:

=D54*F54/(G54*H54)

This isn't a typo, though the other interpretation is possible. The idea is if two parts can be made on the tooling the fraction included is 0.5. Using two and dividing gives the same math. I did realize the part sheet didn't include the fraction included in the equation so I have updated fca_inputs.xls

[Bill Riley]

MattHill: Vinyl graphics are "decorative" and do not need to be included in the vehicle cost. If you were selling the car you the buyer wouldn't get your sponsors list. This is covered in the rules under painting and cosmetic only items.

Young: You can cost a bend as single bend if you actually made it in a single bend. Some roll hoops have a single bend and others have three or more distinc bends. Just cost it the way you made it.

SQ: This question has been covered earlier. In summary, rather than list thousands of surface mount components we listing chassis control modules by features. We think this is easier for everyone and based on the data we have the distribution of cost for these home made electronics boards is low (so we condensed them into control modules). I will say this, the cost rules will never dictate that you can build something. The cost rules may dictate that the points you loose for building something are more than the points you gain dynamically, but that is engineering. If you think their aren't materials, processes, fasteners or tooling you need to cost you car send the Rules Committee a description and we will add it. We have already done that for many processes, such as brazing, metal spinning, fillament winding, etc.

CSUN: Jeff Freeman's explanation is correct.

[SQ]

Ok. I needed to blow off some steam. I'm (somewhat) better now.

I have another question about sensors. Which sensors need to be itemized and which ones fall under engine cost? The ones I'm really wondering about are the cam and crank position sensors.

[CsunFsae]

Thank you for the advice - I saw the same post, but still felt like we were missing something! Thanks for the input.
Originally posted by Jeff Freeman:
CsunFsae: If you read through the previous posts, you will find an underlying theme that they don't really care that much how you organize the report as long as everything is accounted for and you follow the main guidelines found in appendix C-3.

As I understand it, if you are going to have something listed in the "parts matrix" on the assembly page, you should have a part page corresponding with it. To take your wheel and tire example, you could cost the assembly on one page, the tires on a connected part page, and the wheels on another. Or, you could cost them all as just one assembly page in which you have the wheels and tires listed as materials.

That's at least how I understood it.

--
Jeff Freeman
Cal Poly FSAE

[N.Tsuji]

Dear Mr.Riley,

I have tried your FSAE Cost Application Release 03262009, and found a problem.
I can select or enter the Event name, but I only can select the University name.
My university is not on the list, so, it will be helpful if the University name can be entered.

This is the electrical BOM&PD which we made last year.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/o6sra9s8rt4hrff/BOMPD.zip?dl=1
Although some part of it is written in Japanese, I think it is understandable because its main part is written in English.
It uses some Excel tricks and automatically calculates most things.
I think you can understand how it works, and I hope it will help your development of the application.

Yours sincerely

[Bill Riley]

Cost Software Officially Released

I have posted our first official release that fixes all known bugs. It can be downloaded from fsaeonline.com.

Teams entered into events other than Virginia, Michigan and California need to email their organizing committee to get their authentication numbers. These are handled locally by each competition.

[Bill Riley]

N. Tsuji: You should email your competition organizers to request your authentication number and that they send SAE the necessary information for us to enter you into the system. They will know how to do this.

[N.Tsuji]

Dear Mr.Riley,

Thank you for your kind reply.
Our team is participating in the Student Formula SAE Competition of Japan.
http://www.jsae.or.jp/formula/en/
I know that this competition is not included in the 2009 Formula SAE Competitions series, and I think our competition organizers will not help us.
But we want to use your application because it seems to be very useful.
So, it will be helpful if the University name can also be entered.

Yours sincerely

[CR]

For those in the Michigan competition, are we still required / should fill out the cost report application, and bring this to competition with us.

[Raechel]

Just downloaded the new application. I was able to successfully sync to the FSAE server. However, one of my teammates could not, using the same authentication number.

Does each person on the team need their own authentication number, or do we just need one per team? I was under the impression that we just needed one per team, but I may have been wrong.

If each person needs their own, can they still request them or has the deadline passed?