Cost Rules - Discussion of New 2009 Rules

[MCEH]

Hello Mr.Riley

My team have problems on writing cost report because of 'Errors' in the 'Cost Event Data Base'. Some computers of ours even can not open that file.

Is it allowed to write cost report using only Excel spread sheet - the table (material, Process, Tooling) & FCA_Inputs on ' fsaeonline.com ' - without using 'Cost Event Data base'?

[SQ]

I, also, cannot connect to the server using the new Cost Event Application. It hangs at "Connecting to server".

I was able to connect with an earlier beta, though.

[Bill Riley]

SQ: Cam and crank sensors are included in the engine cost.

N. Tsuji: I will have to look into this before I can give you an answer.

CR: For Michigan teams you do not have to do anything with the application. Other than the addendum (which is optional) you are done. We will be posting the policy about including changes in your addendum without penalty for items that were not in the tables at the time your report was due.

Raechel: There is one authentication number per team. Why don't you send the error message from the computer that didn't sync to me care of Kathleen McDonald katklauz@aol.com. Please include the error message, operating system description,the fcakey file from c:\fca\ and Access was already installed or he/she downloaded the runtime from the website.

MCEH: For California you do not need to use the software, you can use our Excel files or your own version. The specifics for California will be posted next week.

SQ: Please send the error message from the computer that didn't sync to me care of Kathleen McDonald (katklauz@aol.com). Please include the error message, operating system description,the fcakey file from c:\fca\ and Access was already installed or he/she downloaded the runtime from the website.

[Bill Riley]

Cost Software Information

There are two ways to use the new software:

1) Run the program on only one computer, enter all your data there and then simply print out the reports and mail in for your event.

2) Install on multiple team computers. Use the 'sync' command to keep the data on all the computers the same. Changes made to one computer will then be reflected on the others. At the same time the data is upadated on the SAE server and after the deadline the Cost Judges can review your data electronically.

For California this year either are acceptable, as is not using the software at all.

[MCEH]

Dear Mr. Riley

What does "Reaction Tool" means?

I sufficiently read Appendix C-1, Nevertheless I don't understand.

Please Pardon my ignorance.
My native language is not English

I want to definite answer or Example.

Best Regards~

[Michael Royce]

MCEH,
I am going to answer on Bill Riley's behalf as he is extremely busy.

If you thread a bolt into a tapped hole, you only need one wrench (or spanner) to tighten the bolt. If the bolt goes through holes in the parts to be bolted together and out the other side into a nut, you normally tighten the nut with a wrench, but you also need another wrench to hold the head of the bolt to stop it turning. This is what is being called the "Reaction Tool" in Appendix C1, 6.6. (Obviously, sometimes you turn the bolt and hold the nut stationary with the "Reaction Tool.")

We hope this explains it clearly.

[Abhi Mittal]

Dear Mr Riley/Royce,

In Appendix C-2 Standard Part Numbering, it specifies that the number should include the two digit date code. However, the eP/N column on the Michigan required BOM spread-sheet does not do this.

Is this is a mistake?

[MattHill_WWU]

Mr. Riley,

We e-mailed the address listed above on Monday with regard to an error we were receiving in the cost software. Just curious when we might expect a response - recognizing that you are busy, I really just want to make sure you got the message.

Thanks,
Matt Hill
WWU

[Michael Royce]

Matt,
Bill Riley did get your message at 11.33 p.m. on Monday night.

I am sure he will respond as soon as he has an answer. However, his employer does expect him to do some work other than Formula SAE stuff, especially as his employer is fighting for its very existence.

[SQ]

How long, after submission, should one expect to wait before hearing about an AIR? It's been over 2 weeks for me and I didn't even get a response from a second "Looking for an update" email.

[Tony Lee]

Does anyone know what the "Authentication Number" is?
According to the tutorial video, the number should have been emailed to us. The only number I have emailed to me was the Cost Report PIN number, but I have tried that and it does not work.

Does anyone know what the authentication number is?

[SQ]

Tony: That is the number. It does work for me so perhaps something else is going wrong. What does the error message you get say?

[Tony Lee]

Thanks for your response,
The error message that I get is


Missing Authentication Number - Sync Stopped



I am using a 6-digit number (compared to a 3-digit number shown in the tutorial)

I'm guessing I probably have an incorrect PIN number.

[Bill Riley]

I am behind on processing the AIR's but am working hard to catch up.

Tony, look at the fcakey file in c:\fca\. Make sure there is a number hyphen number. If there is a number hyphen but not 2nd number then go back and try refreshing on the setup screen where you enter authentication number (or manually add the authentication number to the fcakey file and save). You will want to open in notepad. You can email Kathleen McDonald to confirm your PIN number. Make sure you ask her to confirm with me you have the right Authentication number so I check the database itself and not just the file I sent her.

[Bill Riley]

2009 Addendum Policy Update

No Penalty for items included in the addendum for Virginia, Michigan or California in 2009.

Read the policy update here:
http://www.fsaeonline.com/Down...0Policy%20Update.pdf (http://www.fsaeonline.com/Downloads/FSAE%202009%20Cost%20Addendum%20Policy%20Update.pd f)

This includes Add Item Requests, even if submitted late.

[SQ]

I have a question before I submit an AIR: Should I ask to have my phattie 20" rims put on the materials cost table or just ask to be able to cost "Bling" by the kilogram? This latter option would be my preference as I can then install the disco ball and 15" subs and not have to submit too many AIRS.

[Tiller]

Hello all,

Sort of a late question, I realize, but how has everyone been costing their hard brake line? Brake plumbing was one of the last things I was going to cost, and I didn't notice until now that hard brake line is all "cost as made"...

If you're reading this as well, Mr. Riley, what was the intent for costing brake line "as made"? I started by costing it as a length of metal stock with the profile of AN-3 tubing, but that yields a rather low cost.

[Jaya I]

Does anyone use Apex Joints in their steering column or elsewhere? How are you costing it? I was thinking of using the Steering Column Universal Joint but the cost they have is inaccurate for the Apex Joints I'm using.

[Dogmeat]

Considering most aerospace quality connectors have a 'male' side and a 'female' side, should a 3-pin connector pair be costed as having 3 pins ($3) or 6 pins ($6)?

Also, would the brake light wire be considered a 'control' or 'power' wire?

Many thanks

[Bill Riley]

Tiller: You use steel by the kg to start your hard brake line, then flare the ends. It should be pretty inexpensive. Remember this approximates volume production so things like brake lines become pretty cheap when you buy that many.

Jayal: I'm not familiar with the Apex joints but the intent is if it is a steering u-joint you can use the table cost.

Dogmeat: You would need a male connector and female connector. One side of the connector has 3 pins and the other side of the connector has 3 pints.

[Bill Riley]

Cost Tables Updated

I have posted updated material and fastener tables.

Significant additions were made the materials table. The fasteners table only got thread inserts.

[MCEH]

Dear, Mr. Riley -

Frame - Paint
in the Procces Table 'Liquid Applicator Gun' for Paint cost unit is '$/cm'
Wich is the right unit cost?

I think 'Liguid Applicator Gun Unit' should be 'cm^2' as 'Paint Cost unit' is '$/cm^2'.

I don't know Liquid Applicator Linear Motion.

[andi]

Hi at all,

I cannot find something like a driveshaft, but I think all teams have to use it. Probably it is posted with another item-name. Could someone help me?

kind regards,
Andi

[Abhi Mittal]

Andi: driveshafts (axles) have to be costed as team-made i think, as stated in appendix c-1.

On another note, those of us competing in the UK formula student event only just got our PIN numbers, but our university (in fact, any UK institutions) are not listed in the app. While we are aware we don't need to use the app, I just wanted to see the format of the report it generates. Is there any chance our universities could be added?

[CFS2009 - Camilla]

Hi Bill,

First of all I just want to say that we love this Forum you've set up. It has been of great help throughout the project.

Secondly I have a question about the differential:
How do we fill in an add item request for the differential internals (Quaife in this case) when we don't have the actual retail information on this as it was bought as a unit with the housing (and all differential housings are to be "cost as made")?

Best regards
Camilla

[George 4]

Mr. Riley,

I don't see a link a to download the cost software on FSAE online. The link from the main page takes me to the application page but there is no link from their to download the software. Am i missing something?

George

[Zhefei Li]

Originally posted by MCEH:
Dear, Mr. Riley -

Frame - Paint
in the Procces Table 'Liquid Applicator Gun' for Paint cost unit is '$/cm'
Wich is the right unit cost?

I think 'Liguid Applicator Gun Unit' should be 'cm^2' as 'Paint Cost unit' is '$/cm^2'.

I don't know Liquid Applicator Linear Motion.

I used liquid applicator gun a lot for adhesives, e.g. when running a bead of adhesive to secure something. That makes sense in linear motion.

You could assume, when painting, a spray coverage of 8 inches (or something) and estimate the linear distance of the passes needed to cover the part.

I don't think it is a mistake; it just has another application.

[Jeff Freeman]

So I have a few questions:

1)Is the length unit for potting composites the diameter of the circle?

2)We use this 2 part foam for a seat. 2 parts, as part a and part b, mix together they expand into a foam. I can't find anything like it in the tables.

On another note, I sync the application with the server on a regular basis, yet the tables linked with it are out-dated.

Thanks,
Jeff Freeman
Cal Poly, SLO

[Raechel]

Hello all,

A few questions...

1. In the rules, it states that we should submit an electronic version (PDF format) in addition to a hard copy. Do we email that to someone or do we mail it on a CD along with the hard copy?

2. For washers, does "diameter" refer to the hole diameter or outer diameter?

3. Should I have one BOM for the car or a separate BOM for each of the 8 sections? I am under the impression that I should just have one big BOM...

4. Also, I've seen a lot of posts here making references to a BOM Excel template of some sort, but the newest version of FCA_inputs doesn't seem to have said template. Is there an Excel file hidden somewhere that I'm missing? The BOM feature on the Cost Application doesn't work for me (keeps giving me unknown errors) so I'd appreciate it if someone could direct me to the Excel format.

Thanks,
Raechel

[Raechel]

Originally posted by Jeff Freeman:
Is the length unit for potting composites the diameter of the circle?


I believe it is the circumference. (source: http://fsaeonline.com/Download...st_Tutorial_2009.pdf (http://fsaeonline.com/Downloads/Cost_Tutorial_2009.pdf))

[Alex_UK]

hi all

where is the gold version of the cost application software available? I only have the link for the beta version and can't find the link at fsaeonline.com

Thanks for help!

Alex

[ClemYong]

Hi all,

We at Cardiff University are using a rapid prototyped (SLS) intake system. There is an option for SLS as a process but no specific material option. The material that we will be using is Duraform, a type of thermoplastic. Any thoughts on this?
Thanks

[Bill Riley]

Cost Software Download

On the last website change the Application page was accidentally not updated, so the link to download the software was no longer present.

I have fixed this and so the application and the Access run time can now be downloaded. Please see:

http://www.fsaeonline.com/Application.htm

Non-North America Competitions

An important announcement for teams entered into the UK, Italian and other competitions outside North America, your University name may not be present in the version of the software posted to the website. In order to update your software to receive the newest Administrative tables (which include more Universities) please see the Application page for instructions I will be publishing tonight.

Thank you for your patience.

[Bill Riley]

MCEH: The 'liquid applicator gun' is supposed to be more like a caulk gun or RTV gun. You pull the trigger, move your hand and liquid flows. Thus, the cost per linear distance. I think you are looking more for 'aerosol apply' which is surface area, or 'brush apply' which is also surface area.

A note on the process (and other) names/descriptions: These tables are intended for global use so if certain terms are unclear or other ones would be helpfull I will add them to the comments field (or list the item twice) for maximum clarity. Please post here or send me an email (katklauz@aol.com) with your suggestion. we're striving to improve things!

andi: driveshafts, axles, half-shafts, whatever you want to call them are cost as made. Please see the main page of fsaeonline.com for more description (scroll to the bottom of the page).

Abhi Mittal: I have fixed the link, added the UK teams and posted instructions on the application page of fsaeonline.com for how to update the software to have the UK teams in it. Normally, you would just sync to get updates, but you can't sync if you can't affiliate your local database with a University.

Camillia: I have today added the Quaife to the tables. Cost is $165 for the internals/gearset only. Housing is cost as made.

George 4: Thanks - it's fixed now. Any other problems please post, and thank you for the feedback.

Zhefei Li: Correct, it isn't a mistake. The other processes are intended for surface area applications.

Jeff Freeman: Potting is insert perimeter. Washer diameter is the hole diameter, so a 6.35mm bolt (1/4 inch) uses 6.35 in the equation. The Excel file required for Michigan was in a stand alone file on fsaeonline.com and is called out as such. The fca_input is also posted on fsaeonline.com and duplicates more of the cost application. Jeff, I'm behind on AIR and questions - can you send me another bug report with the details?

Raechel: The electronic copy was supposed to be submitted by using the 'sync' function of the database. Once we didn't have it ready in time then for Michigan and California we required the Excel file so the judges would have some electronic data. We will post what is needed for California soon. The washer question is answered for Jeff. One BOM for the whole car, but broken into sections is what is required. Jeff's answer also addresses the templates.

ClemYong: Use the 'Rapid Prototype' process and the actual plastic you are using. The RP company should help you pick from the list, but they all cost the same so it isn't critical for 2009.

[Bill Riley]

Material Cost Table Updated

Quaife differential added amongst other items.

[SQ]

Is the FCA_inputs template required for our hard copy or can we use a different spreadsheet format?

[CFS2009 - Camilla]

Hi again Bill,

We have tried to work with the database on different computers but we can't see eachothers uploads i.e when I upload something in the tables it can't be displayed on the other guys computers even though we all have synchronised the information and we're using the same authentication number.

I guess we have trouble understanding it all but if we can't put all information to the same database it feel like it's a waste of time using it.

Please tell me if we're wrong. We might not have understood it enough, so please help us with that.

Thanks for your help
Camilla

[Claudia Del Vecchio]

Mr Riley,

I have a new question...I have seen on the tables that forthe Sheet metal stamping no tooling is required...is it right?

Thank you very much

[UoLM]

Hey, I am writing out the cost report and was wondering what should be entered into the material box for the Voltage Regulator and Buffer Cappacitor? I have looked down the list and can't seem to see an appropriate match.

Thanks for any help

[Carboneer]

We use a Flat Layup tool (bought) that has the vac membrane and port built into it. Basically we can layup flay components and pieces with an aspect ratio of about 3 width to height. My question is that I use the tool to layup body panels, a carbon shifter, dash ect. How do I cost the tool. As an aluminum tool ? ($20000) or as made? or PVF ($3000). Also, the same tool is used to make 9 different components. Can I divide the cost by 9 as in Appendix C-1 section 5.1?

[Bill Riley]

Camilla: Please send details about your efforts to me care of Kathleen McDonald at katklauz@aol.com. I am posting an important announcement about a bug in the software depending on what part of the country you are in. I'm sorry you don't feel it is worth it, but if so I understand.

Claudia: Yes, sheet metal stamping doesn't require tooling. The idea is you use a prototype stamping machine that has preset shapes built in and you stamp the actual part geometry out of the preset shapes.

UoLM: These items should either be included with the engine cost, the ECU cost of the chassis control module cost. If not, please send me an AIR along with what you are using it for.

Carboneer: Can you please send me details of your tooling to katklauz@aol.com so I can look at them in detail. You will either use a predefined tooling or I will add one for you - the intent is not to cost tooling as made as that would add extra work for you.

[Bill Riley]

Important Cost Software Announcement!

The software has a bug where teams in countries where a comma ( , ) is used for decimal points instead of the US customary period (.) will cause the software to not sync with the server. We will fix this, but in the mean time there is a work around posted on fsaeonline.com.

Website:
http://www.fsaeonline.com/Application.htm

Guide:
http://www.fsaeonline.com/Down..._Interface_Guide.pdf (http://www.fsaeonline.com/Downloads/Documentation/FCA_Interface_Guide.pdf)

[CFS2009 - Camilla]

Hi again,

I got a question about cost as made even though we bought it. Are drawings required and how detailed does they have to be? Since we haven't made them they are not cadded exact before. Do we need to do that?

Thank you for your help
Camilla

[Johan Andersson]

Were also having trouble with synchronization of different computers through the server even dough we changed the settings/tried computers that never seen settings that's not English (United states). After "Sync with Server" we get the message that the sync "went well" on both computers but when opening the software the information have not transferred.

Can anyone Please help us with this matter.

[MattHill_WWU]

Bill / Michael,

We never got a response to our initial problem e-mail, and the cost application syncronization still does not work. In the mean time we're knocking out spreadsheets like crazy, but it would be nice if you would respond to our initial request and let us know if you'll be looking into our issue or if we should just stop wasting our time with this application.

In our initial e-mail, we described that some of the machines were throwing an error, but on two different computers we've tried, we get a Missing Auth # error and the fcakey file isn't even being generated. Is this a known issue, or is this something we should e-mail to you?

Regards,
Matt Hill
WWU

[SQ]

How should I price our Motec Ignition Expander? It's not a student made device and doesn't seem to fall under any categories.

[Zhefei Li]

Originally posted by SQ:
How should I price our Motec Ignition Expander? It's not a student made device and doesn't seem to fall under any categories.

I think you should submit an AIR for that.

[SQ]

I think you should submit an AIR for that.


I submitted an AIR and have heard no response about it. Been over 3 weeks now and I have to assume that means it's not being added to the table.

[Alex_UK]

HEllo,

I don't know whether this has been asked before or not - I haven't found anything.

Does the battery need to be costed as assembly or as part? If part, in which assembly does it come with?

Can we delete the assembly template sheet in the FCA_inputs if it's only a part?!

Thanks!

Alex
UK

[Zhefei Li]

Originally posted by Alex_UK:
HEllo,

I don't know whether this has been asked before or not - I haven't found anything.

Does the battery need to be costed as assembly or as part? If part, in which assembly does it come with?

Can we delete the assembly template sheet in the FCA_inputs if it's only a part?!

Thanks!

Alex
UK

You can do it as either.

Much of my report was on the assembly level- what i considered "parts" were added as materials on the assembly level. The additional stuff was simple enough to put all on that level w/o confusion. You could do this, and put the battery as a material (I think, I forget) on the battery assembly, with its associated fasteners, brackets, etc.

You could also do it the other way but this seemed easier.

To paraphrase one of Mr. Riley's posts earlier this thread (it has gotten pretty long), as long as everything is accounted for and makes sense, it's fine.

[Alex_UK]

But this does mean that the so called assembly "battery" gets an assembly number and additonally the part "battery" gets a part number.

Right?

[Zhefei Li]

Originally posted by Alex_UK:
But this does mean that the so called assembly "battery" gets an assembly number and additonally the part "battery" gets a part number.

Right?

Yes, if you have 2 sheets for the part and assembly.

If you had just the assembly sheet (with the battery under "materials" and not "parts") then there would only be 1 assembly number and no part numbers associated with it.

This is just how I did it, from my interpretations of the intent of the rules. I really don't know how it is going to be judged, though.

[Jeff Freeman]

Mr. Riley,

My team has many mounting plates of varying size, shape, and personality. All were made with a plasma cutter. Do I need to cost the cutting process separately for each plate, or can I add up the total amount cut and show it all as one line item?

Thanks,
Jeff Freeman
Cal Poly, SLO

P.s. I submitted the FCA bug report earlier in the week and included a few questions of my own. I've yet to receive a response. Should I post them here?

[Claudia Del Vecchio]

Mr Riley,

IO have have read that the European events won't use the cost database application. I wanted to know if anyway the materials table will be updated, so if we can still send AIR Form

Thank you very much

[Johan Andersson]

Does anybody know if and how to move assemblys from one system to another in the Cost Event Application?

[SQ]

Originally posted by Zhefei Li:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Alex_UK:
But this does mean that the so called assembly "battery" gets an assembly number and additonally the part "battery" gets a part number.

Right?

Yes, if you have 2 sheets for the part and assembly.

If you had just the assembly sheet (with the battery under "materials" and not "parts") then there would only be 1 assembly number and no part numbers associated with it.

This is just how I did it, from my interpretations of the intent of the rules. I really don't know how it is going to be judged, though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For what it's worth, this is also my interpretation and how I did it as well.

[Alex_UK]

Hi!

We're a bit confused... why does the "Starter Button" needs to be costed as a separate assembly? (Appendix C3)?

It's only a simple button...?

Thanks
Alex



Thanks for help

Alex

[Alex_UK]

Hi again,

in what assembly do we have to cost the sensors?

Thanks
Alex

[SQ]

Originally posted by Alex_UK:
Hi again,

in what assembly do we have to cost the sensors?

Thanks
Alex

I put them in the Engine Electronics assembly as all of ours feed to the ECU.

[Bill Riley]

2009 California Expectations Document Posted

Please see www.fsaeonline.com (http://www.fsaeonline.com) for the announcement.

[Bill Riley]

Camilla: While it i the expectation of the Cost Judges that you will submit engineering documentation to support the cost methodology and values in your cost report there is no specific requirement that ever part/assembly or material have an engineering drawing. Especially for the parts that are given in the material table it is not necessary to include supporting documentation. For example a 13" Keizer wheel is known to the judges, so you don't need a picture of it to prove it - this will he handled during the on site inspection.

For something you have bought but cost as made pictures would be useful to show the judges what it looks like and if it is particularly complicated perhaps pictures of the disassembled part would be helpfull. The judges don't expect you to reverse engineer the part into CAD to make engineering drawings of it. I hope this answers your questions.

Johan Andersson: I'm not sure I understand the specefics of your issue. Did you set your region to English (United States) or not? If you don't you might get a succesfull sync message and the data will sit on the server without being processed because of the comma ( , ) issue. Remember, you don't really need to sync if you enter your data on one computer and use the GetAdminTables() command to update your Admin tables.

MattHill: Matt, sorry we haven't responded to your email. Look at the fcakey file in the c:\fca folder. Make sure there are two numbers seperated by a hyphen, such as ###-#######. If the second number is missing try typing in your authentication number and trying sync'ing again. This is a useful thing to try for any team with this same error message. The number before the hyphen is a unique team ID (not car #), so leave that in the file. The fcakey file may be hidden so make sure to turn on hidden file display from windows explorer.

SQ: I think we have an AIR for this already. I'm a bit uncertain about this - perhaps you can help me. Does this interface with the Motec controller to drive the coils?

Alex_UK: You can cost the battery however you want, an assembly or part. I think this is confusing because we're trying to leave it open ended, so there really isn't a wrong answer. Modify the file as you need to follow your costed BOM structure.

Zhefei Li: Thanks, and I like your paraphrase.

Jeff: I'm going to use Zhefei Li's summary: as long as everything is accounted for and makes sense, it's fine. I think I've replied to your bug report...but if not feel free to post here.

Claudia: Some events will have access and I still don't know about the others yet. My intention is to update the tables as we have global common costing for the Cost Event.

Johan: That feature is not available in this version.

Alex_UK: Think of Appendix C-3 as telling you the system where the part/assembly goes. It doesn't dictate BOM level. So it could be a material (of the dashboard) a part or an assembly.

For sensors: as long as everything is accounted for and makes sense, it's fine

[SQ]

Bill,

Regarding the Motec Ignition Expander:
The Motec ECU sends a single pulse to this device for every cylinder fire. This is then hardwired in sequence to spark the right cylinder. So there is interface, but it's only in one direction: the ECU out to the IEX.

The point behind the device is that the Motec ECU has 4 ports devoted to ignition by default. Using this device frees up 3 of those ports to be used by other auxiliary devices (fuel pump, fan relay based on engine temp, etc.)

And another question: What if I need to hand tighten something (My starter switch) that is over 6.35 mm (ours is plastic, 7/8")? This isn't really covered in the process table.

[Jeff Freeman]

Mr. Riley,

- Should I submit an AIR for a 2-part foam mixture used to create the seat?
Description: we use this 2 part foam for a seat. 2 parts, as part a and part b, mix together they expand into a foam

- Are the potting inserts and potting adhesive included in the potting process? I sent an AIR a few weeks ago and didn't notice any distinct answer.

Thanks,
Jeff Freeman
Cal Poly, SLO

[Raechel]

Hi Bill,

Should the eBOM have a specific format for the file name when we email it?

[SQ]

Raechel,

The eBOM file name is specified in rule 3.8.1 of the main competition rules.

[Bill Riley]

SQ: Thanks. From what I see on the web a fair cost for this is $150. I will add this to the tables along with the Traction Control Multiplexer also at $150. Thanks for the help.

Jeff: I'm updating the process table so the potting process includes the material cost. Also, the inserts, both styles, are being added at $2 each. The seat can be one of three things: the structural foam listed under composites, a plastic by type listed in raw materials or if you don't think either of those apply you'll need to submit an AIR (or just post details here along with a website and MSRP).

[Bill Riley]

Cost Team Volunteers Needed!

If you are interested in helping with the Cost rules, mostly to help analyze Add Item Requests please email me care of Kathleen McDonald at katklauz@aol.com

FSAE-Alums, Soon to be FSAE-alums or otherwise I need your help!!

If you don't like the new rules and want to influence them for next year, or loved them and want to give back please help out.

Thanks,

Bill Riley

[Bill Riley]

SQ: I just realized I missed one of your questions. For items over 6.35mm you need to use a wrench, ratchet or some other tool. The idea is in production anything over 6.35mm you would give the operator a tool due to repetition.

[SQ]

Sorry I'm bombarding you with questions, but it's crunch time..

I've got a simple, manufactured water temp sensor (a simple probe wired to a 4 digit 7-segment LCD display). I find all these parts on here, but this part seems to me to fall more along the lines of the Analog Gauge category. Any thoughts?

[Raechel]

Originally posted by SQ:
Raechel,

The eBOM file name is specified in rule 3.8.1 of the main competition rules.

Ah ok. I just wasn't sure because Rule 3.8.1 mentions a PDF. Thanks!

[Jeff Freeman]

Mr. Riley,

I'm a bit unsure of the formulas for costing the fasteners. Should I be able to copy/paste from the fastener table into my unit cost field and insert the values for C1 and C2?

The reason I'm asking, is I've been trying to calculate them other ways and am getting different numbers. I think it all stems from a parentheses question. The fasteners table reads:

[C1]/105154*[Size1]^2*[Size2]*SQRT([Size2])+([C2]*EXP(0.319*[Size1]))

and this to me is saying:
([C1]/105154) * [Size1]^2*[Size2]*SQRT([Size2]) + ([C2]*EXP(0.319*[Size1]))
with emphasis on having the 105154 value as the only thing under the division sign.

Could you verify that this is correct?

Thanks,
Jeff Freeman
Cal Poly, SLO

[Johan Andersson]

Jeff: If you are using your own created COBM:
Just type in the C1, C2, Size1 and Size2 in four different cells in excel and copy formula in a "formula cell" as
=[C1]/105154*[Size1]^2*[Size2]*SQRT([Size2])+([C2]*EXP(0.319*[Size1])) just hit enter and when excel ask you to warify C1 click on the cell that holds the C1 value then excel will asky you to varify the Size1 value, click on the cell that holds the Size1 value, and so on and so on, the "=" will make excel calculate the formula.

If you use the Cost Event Application:
the values C1 and C2 should be read automaticly, how ever we have encounterd a few fastners where the formula is'nt included and have calculated in a excel sheet.

Hope that this will answer your question.

[Raechel]

There seem to be 2 different interpretations of fastener installation costs among my team members. Which one is correct?

Interpretation 1:
1. "Assemble, loose" to put washers in place.
2. "Assemble, line-on-line" to put bolt into hole.
3. "Ratchet" or "wrench" + "reaction tool" to tighten nut & bolt.

Interpretation 2:
1. "Ratchet" or "wrench" + "reaction tool" to tighten nut & bolt. Includes cost of putting washers & bolt in place.

[Bill Riley]

System Upgrade - Please do not sync your database until further notice!

We are performing some upgrades and enhancements to the server side code. Please do not sync until further notice. We will try to make the blackout short. You can continue working locally on your database.

[Bill Riley]

SQ: I would say the 7-segment display precludes the analog gauge, since this would be a digital gauge at that point. If you had a needle driver that would be an analog gauge.

Jeff: Johan is right. Just replace the [C1], etc. references with the proper cell references.

Raechel: Interpretation 2 is correct. The picking up of the washer, the bolt, aligning, etc. are all baked into the fastener cost. I tried to make it simple but maybe this needs clarification.

[Raechel]

Thanks Bill. Just wanted to make sure.

[rhb]

Just a quick question could someone tell me what fastener process to use for inserting circlips we used needle nose pliers but cant derive which category this would fall under

[Jeff Freeman]

To go along with Raechel's question, when is it appropriate to leave out the Assembly Process?

For example, my team is fixing the rear frame to the chassis by a slew of bolt/nut fasteners. Is it necessary to include an assembly process on top of all the ratcheting and related processes?

As a matter of fact, I can only think of a few situations where either the bolts or welding are not the dominant connecting, process. Could you clear this up?

Thanks,
Jeff Freeman
Cal Poly, SLO

[huge]

Mr. Riley,

I don't understand what I've to insert in the field "use", can you please post an e.g.?

Thank you

[lenaic]

Mr Riley,

One of my team member needs a grease nipple on the steering rack assembly but there is no item corresponding in the tables. Do you have to submit an AIR?

Thanks

[lenaic]

Sorry for the mistake,

Do we have to submit an AIR?

Thanks

[Claudia Del Vecchio]

Mr Riley,

I have a new question.
I have to use the weld for fixing the steering column with the joints. I have seen on the table that weld requires tooling, but we don't use it because it's not necessarily. Do we have to cost th etooling anyway or not?

Thank you very much

Claudia

[CFS2009 - Camilla]

Hi Bill,

Here comes another question that we've tried to formulate with an example to skip missunderstandings.

> For our wheels, we are manufacturing the rim out of carbon fiber. The time it takes to cut the 40 pieces of CF is less than one hour per rim and the time it takes to do the layup is about three hours (during our own manufacturing). We are using about 40 pieces and they can be cut out of the weave with 24 meters of cutting (there are quite a few 1m long stripes of UD). In the BOM this costs $144 compared to one man-hour during our manufacturing (this could be reduced further in
mass production). The layup of the rim took us 3 hours and in the BOM the layup of 1.3 m^2 costs $45. This doesn't give a fair view of the
actual cost. There are machines that can automatically cut the pieces needed (the
composite workshop that helped us just bought one) but there isn't any process for such a machine in the process list. How do you suggest
that we fill this in to give a fair view of the price?

Thanks once again
Camilla

[Alex_UK]

Originally posted by SQ:
Raechel,

The eBOM file name is specified in rule 3.8.1 of the main competition rules.

Sorry, I can'T find this here: http://students.sae.org/compet...formulaseries/rules/ (http://students.sae.org/competitions/formulaseries/rules/)

Can somebody help me please? Thanks

[Alex_UK]

Originally posted by UoLM:
Hey, I am writing out the cost report and was wondering what should be entered into the material box for the Voltage Regulator and Buffer Cappacitor? I have looked down the list and can't seem to see an appropriate match.

Thanks for any help

Hi all,

just to emphasize the question from UoLM which he has posted a while ago.

I also want to extend the question to ignition system => ignition amplifier.

Thanks for a hint

Alex

[Raechel]

Originally posted by Alex_UK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SQ:
Raechel,

The eBOM file name is specified in rule 3.8.1 of the main competition rules.

Sorry, I can'T find this here: http://students.sae.org/compet...formulaseries/rules/ (http://students.sae.org/competitions/formulaseries/rules/)

Can somebody help me please? Thanks </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Go to page 66/105. (Although at the bottom of the page it says 57...)

[Bill Riley]

Updates

1) The material and process tables have been updated

2) The sync troubleshooting guide has been updated with the error message and possible fix to address University firewalls

3) I am beta testing the new electronic Add Item Request form. Please help me by submitting your next AIR using the form found on:

www.fsaeonline.com/eAIR.htm (http://www.fsaeonline.com/eAIR.htm)

[Bill Riley]

rhb: line-one-line, assembly labor, 1 kg.

Jeff: I update the process table so the fasteners items explicitly state you can exclude the assembly labor for the bolt, nut, washer, etc. You would need the assembly labor for the rear subframe but once you have that then just run down the bolts.

huge: "Use" is simply a text field to explain why/how/why you are doing something. So say you have 6 M8 bolts. "Use" might say "attaching rear subframe to monocoque" to use Jeff's example.

Ienaic: Yes, please submit an AIR. And please use the new electronic AIR at www.fsaeonline.com/eAIR.htm (http://www.fsaeonline.com/eAIR.htm) so I can test my form.

Claudia: For 2009 you would be required to use some sort of welding fixture. Two points minimum. The idea is while you might vise grip it in the lab in production you would have a real fixture with some quick clamps, etc. Remember you can divide by the PVF of 3000 to reduce the cost.

Camilla: The cost tables will always differ from the actual costs for any given material, process, fastener or tooling. The idea is on average we capture the costs. It sounds like there is a relatively good match between your actual time and the table costs. The other thing is the table costs include consumable material like vacuum bag, peel ply, breather core, etc. Even if the costs aren't quite right the idea is they are fair because everyone in the world would pay the same if they had the same design wheel.

Alex: I don't know if I already answered that question. When you say ignition amplifier is this the spark plug coil? Coils are included in engine cost. If it is part of the engine controller you would cost it separately.

[Raechel]

Hi Bill,

I have a quick question regarding the required eBOM. The far left-hand column is called "Line Number". Do you want us to restart the numbering for each of the 8 systems, or continue the numbering all the way down?

In other words, should I have 1,2,3,... for Brake System, then 1,2,3,... for Engine & Drivetrain? Or should I start Engine & Drivetrain where Brake System left off?

Thanks,
Raechel

[Jeff Freeman]

Bill,

While your response was much appreciated, it didn't provide 100% clarity to my question. Let me try to elaborate.

The rear subframe is fixed together by a number of welding processes, and then it is fixed onto the car by a number of fastening processes. The closest thing I can think of that would count as "Assembly" in this circumstance would be picking up and holding in place the rear subframe to the chassis, which now seems to be covered by the fastener installation process. Would I need an Assembly process for this situation?

Similarly, the suspension corners are a bunch of pieces that are held together and onto the car by welding and fasteners only. Is an Assembly, or more specifically, Suspension Setup process required here?

I can see clear examples of when Assembly is necessary, such as pressing bearings into bearing cups or sliding spacers and sprockets onto an axle, but when Assembly processes are not needed is vague to me.

I appreciate all the extra effort you put toward this. It sure is a lot for volunteer work.

Sincerely,
Jeff Freeman
Cal Poly SLO

[Raechel]

Originally posted by Jeff Freeman:

The closest thing I can think of that would count as "Assembly" in this circumstance would be picking up and holding in place the rear subframe to the chassis

I think you account for this by saying "Assemble - loose". Then add on the wrench/ratchet + reaction tool costs for putting the fasteners in.

One of the examples in Appendix C-1 of "loose assembly" is placing a bracket on a monocoque.

[Warren]

I have added my engine (hi-perf) into the materials category, input the cc's, but the total price only comes out to $2.00??? Anyone have any suggestions for this, or run into similar problems?

Thanks, and thanks to Bill for all your hard work!

[tom.armstrong]

I have just found the same problem putting in our engine, seems to be the same with all the engine types.

[Raechel]

Warren & tom.armstrong:
Are you both using the FCA_inputs template?

If so, you should have $2.50 in "unit cost", and the number of cc's in "Quantity". The subtotal should be automatically calculated.

The equation to calculate the subtotal should look something like =IF(J10="",D10*M10,D10*J10*K10*L10*M10)

[Warren]

I'm using the cost application

[M3Shark]

Is the ability to sink to the servers going to be back online before the cost report is due for fsae California?

If not how do we go about submitting the report?

[Bill Riley]

Raechel: I don't honestly know. I don't think it matters but I will have to check on your question tomorrow.

Jeff: Assembly labor is more general than you are thinking. Assembly labor is used to put every part of the car in contact with the rest of the car. The only time you don't use it is for fasteners. So take the right rear corner of your subframe. The main frame is sitting on a table/floor, whatever. You use assembly labor to mate the main frame to the rear frame. Say there are no guide pins that would be a loose assembly, based on mass. Next you want to attach an a-arm. The a-arm is built up elsewhere in the report. So you have assembly labor to put the a-arm rod-ends into the frame tabs. That's one assembly step. Next, in the front pickup point you use power driver and reaction tool to add the bolt, two washers and nut. Repeat for the back. You need an assembly labor step for the other a-arm. You need one for the pushrod. One for the toe-link. Next you need assembly labor for the upright/hub assembly. When everything is all done then you include suspension setup to measure the camber/castor/toe and change the link lengths to actually dial in the suspension setup. Does this answer your question? So assembly should be included for every unique part or assembly. Even parts held on with velcro would have an assembly step.

Raechel: Thanks - your answer is correct and much shorter than mine!

Engine costs: There must be a mistake in the engine formulas. I will check that tomorrow. Even if you can't sync you can use the update admin table command to download the table change.

As for the sync, the programmer has the patches about done. I will be uploading them to the site for download as soon as possible and publishing the new utilities to patch your data.

[Jeff Freeman]

Bill,

Thanks. What I'm understanding about assembly is basically use it whenever you move stuff (except fasteners). Please let me know if that isn't correct.

Another issue:
I think I may have found a typo on the materials page. Lines 481 and 482 are both for "Hose, Rubber", yet the unit cost has a different formula. I think 481 is more correct ([C1]*[Size1]*[Size2]), although 482 has a later revision date. Please resolve this turmoil.

Yet another issue:
I've mentioned before that my team uses a 2-part foam mix to create the seat. Now I have more details. The material can be found at this website: http://www.pegasusautoracing.c...tails.asp?RecID=1038 (http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=1038). We mix the foam and as it is setting in the tub, we cover it in plastic and sit on it so it has a near final shape when it has set. Then we do a bit of trimming here and there to make it into a seat. Should I submit an AIR for this?

Sincerely,
Jeff Freeman
Cal Poly SLO

[M3Shark]

WAIT...

I am now really confused about what is being asked of us for the cost report for the California event.

So, we DO NOT need to submit an electronic version of the cost report using the cost report software. And in fact, even if we wanted to we would not be able to because according to the California competition rules, posted on April 25th, the electronic version was due on April 1st. O well... i missed it i guess, but no big deal because it was not required...

So then there is this California eBOM that needs to be completed and sent in on a disk with the hard copy. and i can't manage to find a way to pull the information from the cost software for that.

So, correct me if i am wrong here, We need to now fill out the eBom by hand with the same information that already took days to enter into in the software???

that seems just stupidly redundant. is there no way for the software to generate it?

Now, within the written cost report we need everything to be broken into assembly's including an assembly number. This is no problem as we can just print the report from the cost software and use that. correct?

[mok]

Bill (or anyone else able to answer my question):

We have come across the issue on how to mount for example the A-Arms to the chassis. Is it correct to have an Assembly "A-Arms front" where all the front A-Arms are located in as single parts (A-Arm upper left, A-Arm upper right, A-Arm lower left, A-Arm lower right).

To mount this assembly to the chassis, I use
4 x Assemble, 1 kg, Line-on-Line
8 x Ratchet
8 x Reaction Tool
8 x Bolt
8 x Nut
16 x washer (if needed)
all within the assembly materials and processes. Correct? In the tutorial PDF on page 36 it looks like this mounting process is located in the part itself, but shoudn't that go into the assembly?


Another thing concerning the tutorial PDF: On page 35 there is shown the complete part. In my understanding there is missing some kind of assembly to put the rod ends into the A-Arm tubes. Is this right?

Thanks for helping,
Michael

[GSXR05K]

Mr. Riley, thank you for all the work you are doing through this forum. I sent an AIM both in email and your online beta system for Laser Powder Deposition, but now I'm wondering if that is just "Powder Metal Forming," from the processes spreadsheet?

M3Shark, I'm also having the same problem, we can't figure any way to export the data from the software.

Can anyone explain how to export the data from the software?

Thank you, Aaron

[TBR]

Dear Mr. Riley

I am a student at the University of Bath, United Kingdom. Whilst setting up the application, I noticed that University of Bath is not listed in the drop down menu on the "Team Information" screen. We are participating in Formula Student this year and have been doing so for a few years now.

I request you to add University of Bath to this application. Also, could you please guide me to obtain the authentication number.

Regards

Kshitij Gupta

[K Plush]

Dear Kshitij,

You should have had an email from Fiona at the IMechE on the 20th April with your authentication number on it.

If you go to http://www.fsaeonline.com/application.htm there is a document on there that tells you how to find your team on the list. Fiona sent an email about this on the 24th April.

I would imagine that these emails go to your team leader.

Kerry Plush
Swansea University Race Engineering

[A. Ioannides]

Mr Riley,

I am working on the cost report for the University of Manchester car.

I have ploughed through the processes database, but could not find an entry for parts which are forged.

Have I just missed it? If not, how do we cost the forging process?

Thank you,

Andreas

[Raechel]

How has everyone been costing heat shielding? (i.e. heat reflective tape)

[Bill Riley]

Updated Software Now Available

See fsaeonline.com for more information.

[Bill Riley]

Jeff: The equation is listed two ways, which I admit is confusing. But the equation is actually the same for both because C2 is zero and because Size2 is simply the length of hose in meters. It will give you the same answer. To be less confusing I will delete one and leave the following as the gold standard:
[C1]*[Size1]+[C2] per meter of rubber hose.

M3 Shark: The April 1 date is a typo. We will fix that on Monday. The electronic data is due the same day as the report. The eBOM spreadsheet should be emailed to the email address listed. The software will print the required detailed cost information other than the eBOM in Excel format. There is no way to generate the Excel file from the Cost Software.

mok: Commenting generally, you can split the labor however you want. I don't find it intuitive, though, to include the left and right a-arms in one assembly. Nothing illegal with it, just confusing.

GSXR05K: I have looked at the Powder Deposition. Powder metal is a forming process using an upper and lower die, so no, that won't qualify. What I need you to send me is the mass of your part so I can normalize your quoted costs. Can you submit that updated information in the new online AIR on fsaeonline.com and I will review.

A loannides: You are the first to request forging be added. Can you please submit an Add Item Request using the online form on fsaeonline.com. I know it says material just fill it out with details of the process and information on the part so I can add the process.

[Bill Riley]

The web form for AIR's has been working well. I'm migrating everything over to it. Please see Raechel's AIR (1st line) as an example of an excellent AIR and the way to insure you get your item added quickly. Normally I do that math. The slowest AIR's are where I have to call a company to confirm a price, sometimes overseas. That is fine, but if you can make it easier on me then things get added faster.

So, submit your AIR's, and submit them well, at:
http://www.fsaeonline.com/eAIR.htm

[Bill Riley]

Raechel/Jeff,

I have now added 2-part foam by final part mass. Added it at $15/kg.

[Bill Riley]

Updated California Expectations

For teams who are using the new Cost Software and sync'ing with the server you will not be required to submit the eBOM in Excel format. Any team who is not using the Cost Software must submit the eBOM in Excel by email as per the expectations document. Here are the car numbers for teams I see in the database who qualify for not submitting the eBOM in Excel if and only if they finish their cost report in the software.

Car #'s:
0
5
6
17
23
31
33
42
44
47

Again, if you car number is listed above and if you finish your cost report in the software you do not need to submit the eBOM. You should include a printed version of all the reports in your mailed submission. The judges can see the data online which replaces the eBOM file. If you car # is not listed above or you decide not to finish the cost report in the software you still must submit the eBOM in Excel by email.

If you have questions, please post here.

[Jeff Freeman]

Bill,

Thank you! but...

1) I don't see the 2-part foam added in the material table (Excel file). What category is it listed under?

2) Also, what type of process do you think might be used in the initial shaping of a seat using this foam (as described in my 4/30 post)?

3) My team was having too many complications with the software, so we switched to Excel. Do I have to somehow notify the judges so they don't try reading what we have synced to the system, or will sending the eBOM be enough of a message? Furthermore, by submitting the eBOM via email, am I still required to include it in CD format with the printed version?

Regards,
Jeff Freeman
Cal Poly SLO

[GSXR05K]

Hello Mr. Riley,

We are car #17, South Dakota School of Mines.

We updated our software as soon as you posted it (about 1am M.T. for us). This included uninstalling the old software, restarting our computers, installing the new software, syncing, and making sure the FixID() and GetAdminTables() were run.

After 4 hours of troubleshooting, there are still crucial problems. These are:

1) Trying to view or print the BOM displays "#error" on the reports in the corners, and "error" is always displayed in the Process Column of Bill of Materials by System Report and Summary Chart. On the cover sheet we only get zeros.

2) In the View/Edit BOM, the Assembly Cost and Total Assembly Cost are always showing 0.00, even after entering materials, processes, etc.

There has been no success printing a BOM with all the correct totals.

We appreciate your prompt response,
Aaron – Project Manager
SDSMT FSAE

[Warren]

I am also having the same problem with not being able to generate/print any of the bom/summary chart/cover sheet.

Also, when I installed the new software, in my assemblies, it created a double for most of my parts http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

It also seems to not calculate the totals correctly for assembly processes, some of the prices are $0.00, or they are really overpriced. I had to manually correct some of the totals it produced

[jordan.k]

Hi Mr. Riley,

I am with the South Dakota School of Mines team, car #17, and have a question concerning a processes and materials request. I am wondering about the processes, materials and tooling table options neccessary for a student built circuit board. Thank you.

Jordan M. Krell

[Bill Riley]

Jeff: The cost is official, and you can use it. It will be in the next table update. As for processing, good question. I think you need a composite tool to get the shape you want (probably aren't going to have somebody sit on the foam for 1000 a year). For process please use whatever seems more correct, "Aerosol Apply", "Brush Apply", whatever method you are using to get the foam onto/into the bag/mold, etc. If you think this is not representative let me know.

Aaron: Pleaes email your database file (fca_DATA.acddb) to me at fsae.cost@gmail.com. I created this new email to get these big files. I won't respond to questions from this account, so please don't everyone email me there. Questions should go on the forum or to katklauz@aol.com. Thanks.

Warren: Please email me your database file (fca_DATA.accdb) as above.

Jordan: We have fundamentally chosen not to delve into the circuit boards by materials and processes. We represent these as chassis control modules. Please review those options and if you feel we are missing something please submit an AIR for the functions/features you are looking for. We did this because the task of listing all the components of a circuit board was daunting.

[srush]

Hello Mr. Riley,

Our team is having trouble syncing and even
entering processes. I have been trying to
enter an Assemble process and it keeps telling
me that an error (6) has occurred. When trying
to sync it says:
Uploading sync records...
9231
Then it gets halfway through and seems to stop.
Should we email you the file?

We are also having trouble going to the report
view. The report shows up with nothing in it
and says error at the bottom of the page.

Thanks,

[Phill Scott]

Hi Bill

I seem to be having the same problems as a couple of other people, when I try to add an assembly process I get an error (6) message and also when I go to look at the report the sheets are blank with an error message.

This has only started since I updated to the latest version this morning.

Thanks in advance

[ErinK]

What material should we use to cost our headrest foam?
The only foam on the materials table is structural foam, which ends up being around $25. Doesn't this sound too expensive for the headrest?

[Jeff Freeman]

Erin,

For the headrest, see Line 349 in the materials table. It is titled Head Rest Padding

Sincerely,
Jeff Freeman
Cal Poly SLO

[Raechel]

So I know that the cost of lamination (composites) includes the cost of trimming the plies to place in the mold, but does it include the cost of trimming the raw edges after the part is popped from the mold?

<STRIKE>Also, how has everyone been costing heat reflective tape?</STRIKE>

EDIT: Never mind, I found "heat barrier"!

[ErinK]

Thanks Jeff. We must have just overlooked it!

[Raechel]

Also, in response to the expanding foam process, I think both Jeff's and my teams do the same thing. We pour the foam into the bag while it is liquid, then wait for it to harden. So it is almost like a casting process except not with metal. I wonder if we could add a process that reflects this somehow...

[huge]

Hi Bill,
I don't find eye bolt in the tables. Can I consider eye bolts like normal bolts?

[clare]

Mr. Riley,

i have just downloaded the update for the cost application, when i try to run FixID() i get a message which says error (6) has occured.

how do i fix this?
many thanks

clare
UHRacing
University of Hertfordshire

[Jeff Freeman]

I agree with Raechel about the 2-part foam casting process. Right now I have it costed as Liquid Apply - Spot, with a quantity of 3 (for each pour). It hardly even makes sense to me.

Some other questions I have:

1) Several of my welds don't require any welding fixture because the geometries for the parts being welded can only line up one way. I have been using an Assemble process as pre-weld alignment. Is this a valid costing Method?

2)Several of my parts either don't have part numbers or have P/Ns that are the same as other parts (from a lack of communication between team members). So far, I have just been adding or changing as I saw fit, but I started to wonder, how strictly do the Part Numbers in the eBOM need to match with those in the attached drawings?

3) My team is using Duct Tape as a seat and headrest cover. While I saw Tape as a process, it is costed per meter, which doesn't quite handle surface area. Currently, I have Fabric as the material (duct tape) and Sewing for the process, which I know is wrong. What would you suggest I do?


Thank you very much,
Jeff Freeman
Cal Poly SLO

[Raechel]

Originally posted by Jeff Freeman:

3) My team is using Duct Tape as a seat and headrest cover. While I saw Tape as a process, it is costed per meter, which doesn't quite handle surface area. Currently, I have Fabric as the material (duct tape) and Sewing for the process, which I know is wrong. What would you

Maybe you can take take the width of your duct tape and multiply it by the appropriate length to cover the area you need? If you're using the "Tape" process, that is.

[MattHill_WWU]

I'm looking for a clarification on the assembly of some Brake Hard Lines.

In order to connect the hard lines to some other fittings, we utilize a tube sleeve and a tube nut. However, there is only Low Pressure fittings listed for Tube Sleeve and Tube Nut. Under the definitions given by the material list, brake lines are high pressure - so, should we still just use the low pressure stuff?

Matt

[MattHill_WWU]

1) Several of my welds don't require any welding fixture because the geometries for the parts being welded can only line up one way. I have been using an Assemble process as pre-weld alignment. Is this a valid costing Method?

No. Assemble only covers picking up the part and moving it. According to the 'Yes' in the Tooling Required column, you must also cost a fixture to hold that part in place while you are welding it.

Costing these fixtures isn't hard - $500 per pickup, each pickup holds one part in place. It should take you all of 4 seconds to write in all your fixture and they'll end up adding only a few bucks to your parts.

[Bill Riley]

For expanding foam I will add the following process to the process table:

"Liquid Apply - Pour Expanding Foam"

Cost is $2/m^3. This cost is based on the fully expanded final part volume before trimming (if any).

[Bill Riley]

I have forwarded all of the bug reports and software issues posted to date to the Programmer. Thank you.

[Bill Riley]

Raechel: Lamination does not include the cost of trimming the final part geometry.

huge: I have an AIR for eye bolts. I need to add it to the tables. If you're going to California I would cost them as a normal bolt and fix it in your addendum (add a note to it explaining as such).

Jeff: 1) My answer to this question is always the same, in production you would have a fixture, even if it is two quick clamps. Matt Hill's response covers this. 2) Again, more of a judge question but I don't with all the hurtles and challenges of this year they are going to care if the drawings don't match the Cost part numbers. You can always hand write the Cost p/n. 3) If you know the width of the tape just calculate the linear length of taping it takes to cover the parts accounting for the overlap.

Raechel: I agree.

Matt Hill: Technically I need an AIR on this, but use the LP cost for California and send me an AIR to update, you can include in your addendum at no penalty.

[Mike Howe]

We have some wire mesh covering some of our large inlets on our sidepods, what have other teams been costing this as? There doesn't seem to be any sort of mesh on the materials list.

[ErinK]

We are having trouble finding a cost for the set screw in our steering rack. We cannot find a listing on any of the tables. Any suggestions?

[Bill Riley]

Mike Howe: This item is new and isn't in the tables. You will need an AIR for it. If you're going to California I think you should use the split sleeving cost and fix it in the addendum.

ErinK: You can use the normal bolt cost based on grade for your set screws.

[Warren]

Anybody having troubles with generating the reports to be able to print? Not being able to print the report and having to mail it in tomorrow is a bit scary...

[srush]

Warren we are also having problems generating the reports to print them!! Yes it is super
scary!!!

To be completely honest and straight forward: I do not believe this costing software should have been implemented this year or this soon in its development stage. Understandably there are just way too many bugs to work out.

[Warren]

Originally posted by srush:
Warren we are also having problems generating the reports to print them!! Yes it is super
scary!!!

To be completely honest and straight forward: I do not believe this costing software should have been implemented this year or this soon in its development stage. Understandably there are just way too many bugs to work out.

Did you fill out the excel files alongside the cost software? I have been working solely with the software, and if I cannot print out, I really have no way to get a cost report to the officials

[srush]

Since the cost software was recommended we have been working primarily on it. So we are in the same boat! If we are unable to print it out we may be empty handed!

Not only that but we were entering items regardless of the error 6 because it appeared that it still worked. We put many entries in and then when we tried to sync any entries with the error msg seemed to disappear! So there went many of our entries out the door.

[Warren]

I've just been disregarding the error 6 message! It deletes data when you sync??? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Raechel]

We gave up on the software a few weeks ago when I tried and failed to produce a report. For the stuff we had already done in the software at the time, we copied & pasted it out into Excel. It's kind of a pain in the ass, but it can be done.

[Claudia Del Vecchio]

Mr Riley,

i have a new question. I'm costing the steering wheel quick release, which is to be costed as made, but i have aproblem. In this part there are some spheres, which I can't find on the tables. How can I cost them?

Thank you very much

Claudia

[Warren]

Bill,

From the previous posts from above, I can't generate reports to print, and I worked solely with the cost application - no excel spreadsheets. What should I do?

[Jeff Freeman]

I found what email address to send the eBOM to no problem, but what email address to I send the pdf file to? Help.

--
Jeff Freeman
Cal Poly SLO

[Bill Riley]

Try your data with the older release. The reports might work...please let me know.

You can email the pdf to the same email address.

[Bill Riley]

From the programmer:

"The error(6) is an overflow issue that I notice seems to be happening when a student database has more than one active event or team. Could you have the teams that reported the bug verify that they have only one active team and one active event?"

Use the forward/backward buttons and delete any extraneous teams or events you have. Make sure only one is active.

[Warren]

Originally posted by Bill Riley:
Try your data with the older release. The reports might work...please let me know.

You can email the pdf to the same email address.

I tried it with the release that was available right before the recent update. It still does not generate any of the reports.

[Bill Riley]

Warre: please email your database (fca_DATA.accdb) to fsae.cost@gmail.com.

[Warren]

Originally posted by Bill Riley:
Warre: please email your database (fca_DATA.accdb) to fsae.cost@gmail.com.
Just sent the e-mail

[Bill Riley]

Cost Database - California Announcement

The latest version has been very problematic. I'm sorry about that. We didn't find any of this in our testing. It's unfair to teams in California, and we realize that. We'll write up the official wording but here is what we are going to do:

1) If you are not using the software you need to submit your Cost Report on time. Don't forget there is no penalty for the addendum so any AIR's you haven't gotten back you can fix in the addendum.

2) If you are using the software then:
A. You should email your database file (fca_DATA.accdb) along with University Name, Car Number and name/email/phone for your contact person to fsae.cost@gmail.com by the deadline. Make the subject: "California Data: Car ###", fill in the car number (three digit number). This is to verify you have been using the database and have data in it. Even if you think the data is gone we can extract it, so don't worry.
B. Once the new version of the software is available to fix these bugs we will distribute it and you will have 48 hours to finalize your cost reports and mail the hard copy to the judges.

There have been a lot of growing pains this year. If we had to do it over again, I would have waited a year to attempt all this. We are trying to be fair. Please stay flexible.

Bill Riley
FSAE Rules Committee

[Phill Scott]

Originally posted by Bill Riley:
From the programmer:

"The error(6) is an overflow issue that I notice seems to be happening when a student database has more than one active event or team. Could you have the teams that reported the bug verify that they have only one active team and one active event?"

Use the forward/backward buttons and delete any extraneous teams or events you have. Make sure only one is active.

Bill

After checking I did have more than one active team, I had three or four that seem to have been added automatically somehow, such as coventry and University of Basque Country.
I've removed these teams and made sure that Aston is the only active team but I am still getting an error (6) message. This isn't happening in all of parts though - only the ones I need to edit!

Thanks

[Bill Riley]

Phill,

The programmer wants to know when you get the error (6) message, specefically. When you click on a part, assembly, material, etc. More detail will help him.

Thanks,

Bill

[CFS2009 - Camilla]

Hi Bill,

unfortunately we can't get the database software to work so we have decided to not go with it for FS this year. We have tried so many times and the time is runnig out for us. What do you say about that? Is it required or optional for us?

We all think it's a good idea but in the state it's in it's simply to much work and too little gain cause of all bugs. We don't mean to be disrespectful in anyway but somewhere on the way we have to make a choice and this time it was to skip it.

What is your oppinion on the matter? do you think we are making a misstake? We simply can not solve all bugs and we haven't gotten respons on our error-emails so we took this decision.

Best regards
Camilla CFS-2009

[Phill Scott]

Bill

I get the error message when I am in a part trying to add to either a material or a process. This happens when I try both the "+" and trying the pen button. It works fine in fasteners and tooling - I hadn't realised this to begin with

Many Thanks

[Chadwick Huntington]

As phill scott mentioned above, I also get an error 6 when trying to "pen" in a new assembly or part.

Im going to assume that this is the normal overflow error on that variable.

[Raechel]

Just came back from FedEx and emailed the eBOM & PDF. Thanks to everyone for your help and advice!

[clare]

Originally posted by Bill Riley:
From the programmer:

"The error(6) is an overflow issue that I notice seems to be happening when a student database has more than one active event or team. Could you have the teams that reported the bug verify that they have only one active team and one active event?"

Use the forward/backward buttons and delete any extraneous teams or events you have. Make sure only one is active.

i only have one active team and event and still get the error(6) when i try to run the FixID() command.

clare
UHRacing
University of Hertfordshire

[SumitSaurav]

I have a doubt regarding costing the display system. With respect to being able to cast our integrated LCD display as student built LCD (custom made), as per the materials table, the constraints are that it should not be a part of a purchased unit which is a part of the DAQ, etc.
Also the display should be based on student built electronics. But the doubt is we are using an NIOS evaluation kit with the developments boards etc. Hence it kind of falls in the gray area between the above mentioned requisites. How do I go about it?

[Claudia Del Vecchio]

Mr Riley,

I have a new question. I'm costing the steering wheel quick release, which is to be costed as made, but i have aproblem. In this part there are some spheres, which I can't find on the tables. How can I cost them?

Thank you very much

Claudia

[Sarah Figl]

Hi@all,


is there a specific deadline for AIR's for the german competion in hockenheim (FSG)?

is the impact attenuator/crashbox part of the cost report? if yes, which assembly does it belong to? miscellaneous?

Thanks a lot
Sarah

[A. Ioannides]

Mr. Riley,

This is a reply to a question i posted last Friday about the forging process. I was asking about it because i was in the process of costing the quick release and, as Claudia above has mentioned, the ball bearings are not listed as standard materials.
As far as i know, they are forged and then ground to tolerance. Is this correct?
How are we supposed to cost them?

Thanks, Andreas

[Johan Andersson]

Dear Bill
Regarding lath/turn: if we machine a cylindrical billet, both inside and outside, do we need to add an "Machining Setup, Change" due to that we do both inside and outside machining?

[Agnes]

Hello all,

Can`t find a clutch in the tables? Can someone help me? Or do we have to cost it as made?

Thanks

[Bill Riley]

Cost Software Update

We are currently testing the next release to fix the bugs reported here and by email. I hope to have it posted by end of the day tomorrow.

[Bill Riley]

Claudia: I would need an AIR for the bearing balls (steel spheres) normally, but I had just done one. Cost will be in next table update, but the equation will be [C1]*[Size1]+[C2], Size=ball diamter and [C1]=0.003, [C2]=0.05.

Sarah: I don't the FSG deadline. You will have to check with them.

A. loannides: You should cost them as machined from steel billet for now. We are considering what to do about the forging process for now, because we realize items that are actually purchased that are cost as made might have forging. The committee is discussing.

Johan: If you can machine the item without a setup change then you don't need to include one. Some parts will require at least one change based on part geometry, etc.

Agnes: The main engine clutch is included in the engine/transmission cost. The clutch plates in a differential are included in the "internals" cost. If you are using clutches other places you will need to submit an AIR.

[Abhi Mittal]

CFS2009 - Camilla: If you're referring to the FS event in the UK, you certainly don't have to use the application software, it is optional for 2009.

You are not alone in not using it, we are not either. I have had a play with it to see what the format of the report is. We then tweaked the excel sheets to match that. I don't really have confidence in the software yet, there were some errors I couldn't get past. The excel sheets are much more transparent, so if anything funny happens we can look the at formulae and figure it out ourselves.

The software should be great for next year, especially if used from day 1 and enter parts one at a time as they are made.

[GARRY]

Mr. Riley,

Due to problems with the application we have had to use spreadsheet templates. Could you please inform me of where we can find the standard densities and standard material allowances for use in our spreadsheet. In Appendix C-1 Cost Models and Cost Methodology, it mentiuons that this information has been provided in tables?

Best Regards
Garry

[Wenke]

Mr. Riley,

for our drivers seat we laminated a carbon fiber composite over a mold made by expanding foam around a driver.

Should we cost that as a lamination with a composite tool, or should we cost the construction of the mold seperatly. If the latter please tell us which process to use for the mold contruction. Maybe aerosol apply?

Thanks in advance
Wenke

[Jeff Freeman]

Wenke,

I would say cost the expanding foam, then add on the carbon fiber lamination. For the expanding foam, look through the forum for a 2-part expanding foam (if that's what you used) and use the following process:


Originally posted by Bill Riley:
For expanding foam I will add the following process to the process table:

"Liquid Apply - Pour Expanding Foam"

Cost is $2/m^3. This cost is based on the fully expanded final part volume before trimming (if any).

Be sure to read through the forum before posting. I know it's long, but there is a well of wisdom in there.

Sincerely,
Jeff Freeman
Cal Poly SLO

[CFS2009 - Camilla]

Originally posted by Abhi Mittal:
CFS2009 - Camilla: If you're referring to the FS event in the UK, you certainly don't have to use the application software, it is optional for 2009.

You are not alone in not using it, we are not either. I have had a play with it to see what the format of the report is. We then tweaked the excel sheets to match that. I don't really have confidence in the software yet, there were some errors I couldn't get past. The excel sheets are much more transparent, so if anything funny happens we can look the at formulae and figure it out ourselves.

The software should be great for next year, especially if used from day 1 and enter parts one at a time as they are made.


Hey,

Thanks for that. Somehow it feels good to know that we are all in the same boat.

Good luck with everything
Camilla

[ghost]

Bill:
I wanted to know if there is any AIR to include Pantograph machining under processes?

[UoLM]

Dear Bill,

For the electrical system, is it acceptable to provide total wire lengths for the wiring harness assembly only? And as a result in the other assemblies only include the parts and connectors?

Eg if the fuses assembly contains only fusebox and fuses but nothing regards to wires or connectors as that is taken care of in the wiring harness assembly

[Sarah Figl]

Hi Bill,

which process should we use for making beads, for example for the underbody...

[Sarah Figl]

another question concerning electronics:

there is no sensor fluid temperature in materials.

I already sent an AIR for our sensor which is from BOSCH but perhaps you want to add a general one for any supplier...

[Agnes]

Hello all,

1) Just to make sure, for the UK competition we do not need to submit an electronic version ( optional). The only thing required is a hard copy, no cd-rom required???

2) I still have problems with the Assembly cost! Can someone give me an example when it is needed and when not? When I fasten something with bolts do I still need the assembly cost? And what about parts do they need assembly costs?

3) When fixing something with an Allen key which process do I have to take ???

4) Is the process “Machining Setup, Install and remove” only required for machining or also for processes like Laser Cutting?

Thanks

[Bill Riley]

Garry: The machining allowances are in the comments field of the process tables. We decided not to list densities, so you should use the actual density for your material.

Wenke: Jeff's comment is correct.

ghost: No AIR for pantograph machining. We are distinguishing between CNC, manual, pantograph, etc. Same cost by volume of material.

UoLM: The way you draw the boundaries to separate the components is up to you.

Sarah: I don't know what you mean by making beads for the underbody...you'll have to explain what beads are...

Sarah: The intention was to use "Sensor, Thermocouple". But you're right that you may have a thermistor based sensor so I've added "Sensor, Temperature". Same cost. Also, I've aded "Sensor, Fluid Pressure & Temperature" for a single sensor that does both with a cost less than two individual sensors.

Agnes: 1) You will have to check with the UK organizers for their requirements. 2) I think assembly labor has been covered in good detail on the forum, but to recap you need assembly labor every part on the car but never for bolts or fasteners. So if you have two blocks you need assembly labor to put on block on the other and then no more labor for the fasteners. You do need fastener steps to install the bolts, etc. 3) I would try to use the cheapest method available, such as putting an allen key in a ratchet. 4) Column "H" of the process table categories processes so any machining type process would need a machining setup/change.

[Thakur]

We are cutting the tubes at an angle. So I want to know which one i.e (tube cut) or (saw or tubing cut ) is to be used.
one more thing
Whether we have to use the process multiplier with saw or tubing cut as it is described as a machining process.

[Wenke]

Thanks Jeff and Bill, I think we overlooked the "Liquid Apply - Pour Expanding Foam".
I still am not sure if it's the right way of costing it at all. I found
another post saying in the 1000 series we would probably rather laminate
over a composite mold anyway.
We just don't seem to fully understand what is included in the tooling (and
yes, we read Appendix C1). But when looking at the examples there, I think
costing our seat as carbon fiber lamination with a composite mold (tool)
would be the right way. Or am I missing something?

We are participating in the FS Event in Silverstone (UK) and we must send in our Cost Report next week. We are not using the online database. When are the AIR going to be processed? What are we supposed to do if they are not being processed in time?

Thanks,
Wenke

[Alex Hall]

Hi Bill,

We're currently costing our fuel rail which is an aluminium extrusion (D-shaped outside with round hole through the length) which we then drill for injector holes and tap for end fittings etc.

We cannot see extrusion as a process in the tables? Do we
a) Submit AIR for extrusion process, or
b) Cost weight of solid rectangular ally bar and use machining process for volume removed to create d-shape and hole along the centre?

While I think option b) should technically work within the structure of the software/tables, it's not really representative of the process.

Regards,

Alex Hall
UBRacing
University of Birmingham

[Sarah Figl]

Originally posted by Bill Riley:
Sarah: I don't know what you mean by making beads for the underbody...you'll have to explain what beads are...


Thanks for the sensors and sorry for the confusion. I mean reinforcements in the sheet steel of the underbody (apparently called beads /corrugation/pleat/seam or crimping)... leo.org told me thats the right word :-)

[Jeff Freeman]

Bill,

1) My team is almost done building the car, and as such, I've been gearing my mind toward the addendum I will be making for the cost report. The first (and most halting) question that came to mind is how am I supposed to format it? Should I make an entirely new cost report, binder and all? Should I just submit the changes (i.e. altered, added, or removed)? Or, is there some form I am supposed to fill out?

2) The left and right bearing blocks on the rear axle are, as I understand it, essentially uprights. I spoke in detail with the guys on the team who know much more about it than me, and they feel that it wouldn't make sense to include them in the suspension system because they attach to the car as a part of the rear axle assembly. Normally I wouldn't have worried too much about placement, but you stressed that we ought to follow Appendix C-3. Uprights are in Suspension, and bearing blocks are nowhere to be found. Could you clarify where we should include them?

3) Some items that my teammates couldn't find on the tables; mostly electronics, which I haven't tried to find because I don't know anything about that subject. I can submit an AIR if you don't have them, but I thought I'd check to see if we were just passing it by or interpreting it incorrectly first.
-Coil
-Ignition Module
-Voltage Regulator
-Brake Light
-Water Temp Sensor

-Regulator

Thanks,
Jeff Freeman
Cal Poly, SLO

[lenaic]

Mr Riley,

What type of process do we have to use when we want grease the steering rack with the grease nipple? Do "liquid applicator gun" or "adjutement, misc" are suitable?

thanks

[Sarah Figl]

clevices and Folding spring bolts
like these ones here:
http://www.mbo-osswald.com/ind...n&modul=static&id=99 (http://www.mbo-osswald.com/index.php?lang=en&modul=static&id=99)

should we cost them as made or do you need an AIR?

Thanks

[GARRY]

Dear Bill,

We are using "Damper, Cane Creek Double Barrel" units in our car. Do we need to include an additional cost for the springs?

Best Regards
Garry

[knaber]

Mr. Riley,

Our team sent in our cost report USPS certified mail. When we track the package it says that it is waiting to be picked up. Is there anyone I can contact about this issue?

[Philipp]

@ all:
1) Can't find a lambda sensor on the table but I think every team must have it. How do you cost it?

2) Do we need a process for fluids like brake fluid etc.?

Best,
Philipp

[D Collins Jr]

Jeff: 1. Just provide the things that need revision. Don't bind them. And remember, addenda are due at registration.
2. Make a note that the "Bearing Blocks" are your uprights and cost them in suspension.
3. Brake Light and Housing is a material. Coils, water temp sensor, and Ignition Module are (I believe) free with a stock engine.

GARRY: The damper and springs are separate parts. Unless you are not running any springs, you will need a line item for springs.

Philipp: 1. Lambda sensors are wideband O2. They are type "sensors" and are about $5
2. I would recommend assemble, or I think there might just be a "pour" process...

[Johan Andersson]

Dear Bill

Im using the latest wersion of the cost report software (2009-05-09)

1.) When Adding a "Connector, OEM Quality" to materials theese are cost as $0,50 /pin(s) but when I fill in quantity 4 (cause of 4 connectors used) and 2 in unti1 (2 pins /conector) this only sums up to $2 in the software, and it would be ridiculous to put every singel connector on an own row, and if I put 8 in quantity, it's the right price but how are the judges supose to be able to judge that.

2) we are using some threaded rod, but when costing it as made (as we did'nt find it in any lists) it gets so expensive just the threading is $0,3 / cm (multiplier - steel) this seams realy expensive, Should I send in an AIR for this?

[GARRY]

Dear Bill,

Do you know when the AIRs will next be updated onto the materials table? Is it likely that all current outstanding AIRs will be assessed and added at once?

Thanks again
Garry

[Thakur]

Hi Bill ,

We are facing difficulties while handeling the cost software. Actually the cost shown by the Summary sheet is coming entirely different from the one given BOM sheet.Actually this problem is there in three systems (Electrical,Steering and Wheels).
please provide us the solution for the same as soon as possible.

[Johan Andersson]

First of all Bill and everyone else that are helping out with answering the question, big thanks, I've tried to answer every question Im sure about. So now to a few questions!

1.When costing the connectors to wire there is a cost for this assemble, but we can't seam to find any cost for connencing pressure hose to it's conector, it's a "push to connect" connection, is the cost for assembly theese included in the price?

2.What is the difference between "Connector assembly, solder" and "Attach Wire, Solder wire, bent" we are soldering the wire directly to the connector pins, which should we use?

3. About the "Chassins Control Module, +Automatic shifter" does this include the wires from the circuit board to the connectors in the "baseline Enclosure"?

4. On all our sheet metal parts that have been sheared we have had their burrows removed by "hand finish". This is a "machining process" which means that there should be a "machining setup, Install and revome" per part and "machining setup,change" we have done this manully with out the install or change, this prcess would have been taken a longer time (= greater cost) if we accutly would have fixed the part, do we need the "installation" and "change" processes?

5.We are using grease on some parts, we have cost this as "Fluid, oil" as mentioned earlier in the thread, but what type of process is needed to apply the grease, "Hand loose"? and while we're on the subject, filling oil in the engine?

6.When does the next update of material tables take place, we need the spherical balls that were asked for earlier in the thread?

[Johan Andersson]

Hi have anouther question!

1.1 We are using Polyethelene for the inside of the drives compartment.
Theese have been bought in large sheets (3mm thick)could we cost the raw material as the surface area times thickness times the density? That is can we cost raw materials in the for of sheets?
Perhaps a dumb question, but then it's as least easy to answer!

2.2 When costing the process can we use the "Sheet metal shearing / -bends" even though it's not metal?
The processes are listed under the catagory "Sheet materials", so I guess it's the propper thing to do!

[SumitSaurav]

What is the last date to submit the addendum for the UK event?

[Johan Andersson]

1. We are using some counter sinked holes, but I can't seam to find theese in the process table. How should we cost theese?

2. Does Threading need a "Machining setup, Install and remove"?

[Lightsun]

Firstly, thank you everyone for their help.
I have read the whole Cost Report Topic, and I 'm still not sure about when do we have to use "Machining Setup, Change" and "Machining Setup, Install and Remove". I think that every part which has a Machining process (in "H" column) needs one "Machining, Install and Remove", but I don't know when do we have to use the "Machining Setup, Change". Can anyone clarify that? Thank You.

ETSEIB Motorsport

[Johan Andersson]

Hello Lightsun

Regarding the "Machining Setup, Change" for example machining a cube-part on every side (6 sides) you would not be able to do this from the first setup ("install and remove") (machining=column "H" and Threading i guess) and what I can read from the process table the drilling operations does'nt need the machining setup,... since they in column "H" are catogorised as "Drill, Tap"! Hope this helps!

[Lu Racing]

Hello We have a question refering to apendix C2:

"2 All fasteners in the BOM must have a part number using the same convention as parts. All fasteners use system code “FS” even though they are included in the BOM under the part and assembly where they are used."

Are we supose to use the part number of the part which the fastener will fasten? and were should we put it? in "use", since we are using the cost report software ther is not mutch room. Or is this just B.S since the rule was printed third of september 2008?

Could someone please explain this a bit more thorough!

[Vladimir Shmelev]

Mr. Riley,
I would like to know if it is necessary to specify suppliers. Can a Report go without any suppliers? And for instance, if a part was bought but is cost as made, are we to find a random supplier for the materials, or we can leave it without any supplier named?

I also wonder if I have to list the restrictor, intake manifold, fuel tank and fuel lines. I cannot find them in the Materials Table. Are they considered 'internal' to the engine? All of them, except for the fuel lines, were made. Perhaps I should specify the restrictor & intake manifold as parts of throttle body?

The cost of the whole lubrication system seems to be included into the engine's cost. Does this mean that I don't have to write anything about it altogether, only mentioning fluid (oil)?

[moose]

Vladimir,

From my understanding you do not need to specify suppliers. One of the ideas of the changes I believe was to equalize the playing field so that teams in different locals don't get hurt for having different places to buy the same thing.

All the parts, either made or purchased should have their prices come out of the materials table, with no deferance to how or where it was actually acquired, but instead how the rules require that part. Some parts, for example Wheels or ECU can be either cost as made or purchased. Others have to be cost as made even if they were purchased.

The restrictor, intake manifold, fuel tank most likely should be cost as made. Fuel lines are probably some type of plumbing - either stainless steel tube, rubber tube, etc.

The oil pump is a part of the engine internals assuming you don't use a dry sump. The oil is all that needs to be cost, except for any other plumbing to connect the oil cooler to the radiator for example.

Hopefully that helps enough until someone else can provide a more complete answer.

Matt

[Richi]

Dear Mr. Riley,

is it maybe possible to add "pipe clamps" (suh as shown in this picture: http://www.tecnicaindustriale.it/pipeclamp.gif) to the materials list? Or should we simply use another clamp which is already listed?

And I've got another question: If a part is listed as "Made" in the Tables but the team bought this part - we have to cost this part as "Made", but is there a certain documentation (e.g. engineering drawings etc.) necessary as well?

Thank you very much.

[Sarah Figl]

Dear Mr Riley, 2 general questions:

Polyoxymethylen POM is not in Materials Category Raw Material, could we cost it with 3,30$ like all other plastics? (AIR is in process.)

we use copper seal rings, in the category sealing are just elastomer o rings. Perhaps you can add it? (AIR is in process.)

[Sarah Figl]

Hi Mr Riley,

a question concerning electronics. how do we cost strain reliefs?

Thanks a lot

[MattHill_WWU]

Is there a format we need to use for the addendum for California or do we make our own? Sorry if this has already been addressed.

[Bill Riley]

Thakur: Whenever more than one process is "correct" you can pick the one you want (I would pick the cheapest).

Wenke: From what I know of your seat I would agree to cost it as carbon fiber lamination with a composite tool.

Alex Hall: Cost the extruded aluminum by mass. The purchase cost is for the extruded tube, just like if you were buying square tubes for the welded frame, the cost per mass is as it comes from the steel mill, not for the ingot itsels (unless you're casting).

Sarah: I would use a steamp, bend or similar sheet metal process.

Jeff Freeman: The addendum format is in the rules. I would put the bearing blocks in the section where uprights go. If you choose not to do that, it's best to put a note in the other section so the cost judges will know what you're thinking. This is a good tip for everyone to remember: if your design is simpler, clever or just different the cost judges might think you forgot to include a part. Better to put a blank part that says "this item is integrated into xxx" so they know you didn't forget it. This isn't required, it's just a way to avoid talking about it during the event day visual inspection. Several of those items are included in the engine cost. Water temp sensor is listed and there are several ways to cost brake lights.

Ienaic: Either is acceptable, I would use the cheaper option.

Sarah Figl: Please submit an AIR for the items not in the tables. I believe clevesis are already listed.

Garry: The spring is not included in the damper cost because there are different materials available so we broke them out by material type.

knaber: I'm sure this is resolved by now but if not please send an email to katklauz@aol.com.

Philipp: I see your question was answered correctly.

Johan Andersson: The quantity bug will be fixed shortly. Please submit an AIR for threaded rod.

Garry: not sure, we should have an update this week.

Thakur: If you are still having problems please email me your fca_DATA.accdb file along with a description of the problem to katklauz@aol.com.

Johan Andersson: 1) assembly labor is used to connect hoses like this. If it is push to connect then it might be "loose" if it is rubber hose over a barb it becomes "interference". 2) Attach wire is more for a single wire over a pin whereas connector can be used for many at once. 3) Yes, the wires from the enclosure connector to the circuit board are included. 4) Hand finish doesn't require machining setup or change. If you machine it then you have to include it. Hand finish, though, wouldn't include a milled operation. It would be more like a sanding wheel, file, pneumatic hand tool, etc. 5) Anytime there is isn't something more specific use assembly labor. 6) The tables should be updated this week.

[Bill Riley]

Johan Andersson: 1) Yes, cost the polyethelene as a raw material exactly as you described. 2) If you can shear the plastic on a metal press you can use that process. It isn't something I intended but it is a good use of the tables.

SumitSaurav: You would have to ask the UK Cost team.

Johan Andersson: 1) for countersunk holes use an extra drill process and describe that it is for putting in the countersunk feature. 2) Since the "multiplier type used" column is blank the answer is no. Just refer to that column (H) when you wonder.

Lightsun: Johan's answer is exactly right.

Lu Racing: The rules will be updated next year to remove fastener part numbers. However you want to handle it this year is acceptable.

Vladimir: It is not necessary to specify suppliers. I built that in to help you track suppliers from year to year and things like sponsorship, thank you letters, etc. The judges can't even see that data in the online or hard copy reports so it is completely optional. The components you list like restrictor, intake should be cost as if you made them from the materials that they are made from. If your lube system is only the engine then you should include just the oil. If you ahve a turbo with an external oil line, then it is not included with the engine, if that makes sense. The answer from Moose is correct.

Richi: You should submit an AIR for this item. If you are costing a purchased part as made it would be good to submit pictures or other documentation. We don't expect you to reverse engineer the item and make engineering drawings for it. Documentation is optional but really useful to explain what you are doing to the judges.

Sarah Figl: You should submit an AIR for the plastic but it will have the same cost, so if you included it that way you are okay. Copper seal rings are listed as crush washers. You'll have to ask again about strain reliefs with more detail of how you are doing it.

Matt Hill: The addendum format is in the rules.

[Agnes]

Hi,

can`t find aluminium foil in the tables. Do I have to submit an air?

Regards

[Bill Riley]

You might be looking for "Heat Barrier" which is described as "Adhesive film (foil) or matting for reflecting heat". If just normal foil you can cost that by the kg as aluminum.

[Tony Lee]

The addenda format is stated as being in Appendix C-5, I can't seem to find that appendix anywhere? Does anyone have the link to that?

[Thrainer]

Hi there,

we are writing our Addendum for Silverstone and are a bit confused (and frustrated).

We have sumbitted plenty of AIRs, some through e-mail and more on this site: http://spreadsheets.google.com...GvWbWDtw&output=html (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=ram1JxbZ2hxJE83GvWbWDtw&output=html)

From the e-mails, we never got any reply. On the online form, I find it quite contradicting. First off, I don't know what "ELM" means.

In the beginning, a (MSRP) price of 606.25$ lead to CR cost of 300$, 414$ -> 205$, so what you put into your CR is half of the MSRP.

But on the newer requests, the full price is mentioned. We bought Magura brake calipers for 383$, now we're supposed to cost them for 445$ ??? Or can we use half of that price for our CR, 222.50$?

Thanks for any clarification and tips. We don't want to lose any points because of this confusing procedure.

Regards,
Thomas
ETH Zürich

[K-ON!]

tony lee:
you can find the addendum in the fsaerules.

[Bill Riley]

All,

On the Add Item Request online spreadsheet the comments field is for the reviewers to leave comments for other reviewers and the teams. The "Final Table Cost" column is the final cost you should use in your cost report. For example the reviewer with initials ELM may leave a comment that the MSRP was verified on the website. Then someone else might add the final table cost as 1/2 the MSRP.

If your item is straight forward, there is a note the cost is verified then it is pretty high probability it will be added to the table with 1/2 the MSRP as listed.

If there is a comment like "need more information from team" you should submit a follow up eAIR and reference the first submission by line number or send an email to us.

Bill

[Bill Riley]

Appendices are pdf files on www.fsaeonline.com (http://www.fsaeonline.com).

[Guilherme lopes]

I would like to know if you have received any requests for the password of the cost software to FSAE Brasil ? The local organization told us that they have requested, but the deadline is coming and the don´t reply to any of our emails. cant you send the password direct to us ?

thanks

[Bill Riley]

The FSAE Brazil organizers have all authentication numbers and your team should have received the code from them in the last week or so. If not, please contact them.

[bmw.williams1]

FSAE-A teams have just received our authorisation codes, however none of the Australian teams (except one I believe) do not exist on the team drop down list.
Is there a way we can add our University to this list? If not, is there a way around not entering the team name so we can start work on our BOM?
I also could not sync with the server, but I imagine it was because there was no university name registered.

Thanks.

[Bill Riley]

The program was compiled Aug 24 before the Australian (and I think Brazil) teams were entered into the database. Normally, the program updates when you sync, but you can't sync without a team listed.

The procedure to update your software to have the latest University listing is given in the Interface and Setup Guide on fsaeonline.com.

The file can be downloaded from:

http://www.fsaeonline.com/Down..._Interface_Guide.pdf (http://www.fsaeonline.com/Downloads/Documentation/FCA_Interface_Guide.pdf)

Follow the instructions from the beginning but the part you're asking about starts on page 5 called "Adding a University Name".

[bmw.williams1]

Thank you for that, that has worked and I can now view and edit the BOM.

Now I'm having an issue sync'ing with the server. The process seems to start OK, and displays what's shown below, however once the "Run Query" toolbar down the bottom of screen reaches the end, the words in the text box disappear and the program freezes.

Any suggestions?


Message:

Processing...

Gathering data...
University Number:
Validating Authentication...please wait
Building Connection
Connecting to server...
Uploading sync records...
0
Transfering images...

[bmw.williams1]

Further to that, I have looked at the fcakey file in the FCA folder, and only one number appears AFTER the hyphen, and that is our authentication number. I read a previous post and it seems that a missing first number should not be an issue, so any idea what can be done to fix this? Should I try the FixID() run table?

[Bill Riley]

Email your key file to katklauz@aol.com and I will review it.

The sync process can be quite slow so make sure you're giving it time to complete. Sometimes it has taken me more than 20 minutes, so I'll hit sync and check back later.

[AdamRR]

I am having trouble with the cost application software. I have added a new assembly and then part. When I add the material via the material browser (with its area, length & density) it doesnt seem to calculate in the subtotal section(it is just what the material cost ie Aluminium, Premium).

I sent a few screenshots to your email you provided above

[AdamRR]

Issue
There seems to be anodizing in process tables. I believe it needs to be added, with no cost. Do we need to add it?


Issue
Do we use ‘Machining’ process or use the actual process (i.e Lathe, Mill etc.)? I have been using Machining, as I thought it replaced individual processes?

[Bill Riley]

Anodizing is free, it's included at zero cost for reference and you don't need to include it.

The lathe, mill processes are included for teams who started before the rules were simplified. Now machining is machining you can use that single process.

[Hudson]

Hey guys,

I am having trouble getting my data to sync with the server. I can execute the "GetAdminTables()" with no problems but when i try to sync with the server i get the error:

"Processing

Gathering data

Missing Authentication Number - Sync Stopped"

How do i input the authentication number? i would assume that if i can update the tables the authentication number i am using is correct?

any help appreciated,

cameron

[Bill Riley]

Try deleting and re-adding the University information. If that doesn't work, check the fcakey file (it's a hidden file in the c:\fca\ directory). Try manually adding your authentication number. The fcakey file should contain a three digit number (for an Australian team) followed by a hyphen ("-") then your authentication number. You should be able to open the file in notepad and edit it. If that doesn't work send your fcakey file and FCA_DATA.accdb file to me at katklauz@aol.com.

[George 4]

Will there be a new thread created for the 2010 year or should we just post here?

George

[JMCDONALD]

Hello

When I try to syncronise I get the following error.

Error: 3155

Has anyone else found a way to fix this. I have done the usual fcakey fix, firewall fix, port forwarding etc to no avail.

[Julia - Running Snail]

Dear Mr. Riley,
will there be new Appendixes C1 to C4 for the Rules2010 or will they stay the same as in 2009?
Julia

[sam_99]

Hi, I'm trying to cost a custom dashboard and digital display which uses 7 segments. This primarily requires a number of soldered connections.

Could someone please clarify the following:

1. What is the difference between "attach wire, solder wire, bent" and "attach wire, solder wire, not bent" under processes?
2. If i cost my custom digital display as "Display, LCD (for Student built elect. only)" does this cover the cost of the PCB manufacture, assembly, and internal electrical components?
3. My team has an LED tachometer. I've read that this should be costed as made but there are very few electronic components listed. Would it be sufficient to just list the LEDs used?

If anyone could shed some light any of my questions then that'd be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[lozo]

Originally posted by sam_99:
Hi, I'm trying to cost a custom dashboard and digital display which uses 7 segments. This primarily requires a number of soldered connections.

Could someone please clarify the following:

1. What is the difference between "attach wire, solder wire, bent" and "attach wire, solder wire, not bent" under processes?
2. If i cost my custom digital display as "Display, LCD (for Student built elect. only)" does this cover the cost of the PCB manufacture, assembly, and internal electrical components?
3. My team has an LED tachometer. I've read that this should be costed as made but there are very few electronic components listed. Would it be sufficient to just list the LEDs used?

If anyone could shed some light any of my questions then that'd be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

With regards to questions two and three,

There's a module in the materials section called Chassis Control Module - Dashboard, that should include all the logic, electrical components, transistors, microcontrollers etc. You have to add the base "Chassis Control Module" too.

So in your case, you would have the two Chassis Control Modules + number of LEDs + the LCD.

Richie Wong
University of Auckland FSAE

[Kirby]

More electrical questions:

When costing connectors, priced per pin, does that cost consider both female and male sides of the connector?
If we were using crimp connectors, do we have to cost for the stripping, crimping, assembly and then joining of the connector?

For example:
Engine Stator to Rectifier connection (typically 3pin).

Materials:
Connector, High Power, > 2 Amps. $2.00 per pin ................................. $6.00 (male and female together)

Process:
Strip Multi-Conductor, $0.13 per wire .......................................... $0.78 (3 wires on both sides)
Connector Assembley[sic], Crimp, $0.36 per contact ............................. $2.16 (6 total connections)
Connector Install, Square, Latch/Snap-on Type ($0.17 unit)...................... $0.17 (one connector "unit")

How does that look?

[Cazz226]

Hi,

My team is getting error 3155 when we try to sync.
We have previously synced successfully (after a long time) but now it has died with that error.
Any idea what is causing this?

I've personally previously got other errors like 2431, which is usually when I'm doing something with raw materials (per kg). It doesn't stop me from entering anything, no idea what it means though.

Lastly we've had problems with sections too, I'm sure someone can give us a hand there. Despite putting in the dimensions it always costs them as a unit price, regardless of length, etc.

This idea looks like it has great potential, unfortunately a lot of teething problems for this first year.

[Kirby]

Originally posted by Cazz226:
Hi,

My team is getting error 3155 when we try to sync.
We have previously synced successfully (after a long time) but now it has died with that error.
Any idea what is causing this?

I've personally previously got other errors like 2431, which is usually when I'm doing something with raw materials (per kg). It doesn't stop me from entering anything, no idea what it means though.

Lastly we've had problems with sections too, I'm sure someone can give us a hand there. Despite putting in the dimensions it always costs them as a unit price, regardless of length, etc.

This idea looks like it has great potential, unfortunately a lot of teething problems for this first year.

Hey Cazz? What University ECU/UWA?

When getting error 3155 during sync-ing, I have found if you clear local sync and error logs (NOTE: NOT your local data) and try again it will work. Usually set it running and go watch some tv (or build a racecar) for an hour. It will appear to crash (or go "hazy" in vista) no matter, its still working. Eventually you'll get a success messasge.

[Cazz226]

Thanks a lot, solved the problem, no idea what caused it but it's nice to have it working again.

Neither =P

I agree with the hour thing, that's been our results so far.

[Bill Riley]

George 4: I will create a new topic for 2010 once the Brazil and Australian deadlines are complete.

JMCDONALD: Error 3155 has been reported and the programmer is investigating. I don't think it is tied to the items you mentioned, but you should send us a full description along with your FCA_DATA.accdb file to be sure it's the same cause as the other reported instances of 3155.

Julia: There are no plans now to change C1 through C4. Did you have a specific suggestion or just wondering?

sam_99: 1) Describes whether during the solder the wire is using the pin to stabilize it's position. 2) You will need a chassis control module with dashboard functionality. 3) Housings, LED's, etc are listed. The PCB etc, are included if necessary as chassis control modules. Iozo's response is correct.

Iozo: Thanks for your clarification.

Kirby: Connectors are cost per connector half. It doesn't matter whether you consider a connector as one connector or two since the cost is per pin. Say 4 wires go into a male connector and 4 wires come out of a female connector. Is that two 4 wire connectors or 1 8 wire connector? I think it will be more clear if you have two 4 wire connectors. And include the labor to put them together. Your example looks right.

Cazz226: The sections are a known bug that the programmer is working to fix. That is why we added the materials (per kg), as a temporary work around. I don't know what is causing the 3155 error but the programmer is working on it. Could you send me more details about both errors, 3155 and 2431 so I can make sure I give them to the programmer? Email katklauz@aol.com.

[Julia - Running Snail]

@Bill Riley:
I was just wondering.

[Cazz226]

Just another update, the 3155 error returns after every sync, and the program doesn't sync properly despite going through the whole process and saying it syncs.
Error 2431 is not restricted to purely raw materials either, I think it might be related to quantity and size.

We're now in the process of manually re-entering the cost report into one computer. Sucks, but we're not going to risk it.

[lozo]

Hi Bill,

I have noticed that some items in the materials and fasteners tables (tblMaterial.xls, tblFasteners.xls) on fsaeonline.com are missing from the cost application. Notable items (relevant ones in this case) are the Autronic SM4 in the materials table, and "Hook and Loop, Hook Side (Velcro)" + the corresponding Loop side from the fasteners table.

Please advise on what we should do with items which have not been successfully synchronised with the software or are not reflected in the tables within the Cost Report Application. (including recent AIRs)

Thank you.

Richie Wong
Electrical Team
University of Auckland Formula SAE
www.fsae.co.nz (http://www.fsae.co.nz)

[Kirby]

Originally posted by lozo:
Hi Bill,

I have noticed that some items in the materials and fasteners tables (tblMaterial.xls, tblFasteners.xls) on fsaeonline.com are missing from the cost application. Notable items (relevant ones in this case) are the Autronic SM4 in the materials table, and "Hook and Loop, Hook Side (Velcro)" + the corresponding Loop side from the fasteners table.

Please advise on what we should do with items which have not been successfully synchronised with the software or are not reflected in the tables within the Cost Report Application. (including recent AIRs)

Thank you.

Richie Wong
Electrical Team
University of Auckland Formula SAE
www.fsae.co.nz (http://www.fsae.co.nz)


I was going to post about the velcro, but I figured it was just my machine and I was going to double check with someone else on our team.

I can confirm: it does not appear in my fasteners list in the application.

[Brownie]

hi

i have been having the same problems as Cazz226
with the 3155 error when syncing and 2431 when adding a raw material.

i have also been through the troubleshooting guide and have tried clearing the sync and error logs as Kirby suggested.

[AdamRR]

I have had the same issues as you Brownie and Cazz.
What have you done to get around it? Has anyone experienced troubles with the totals? Im pretty certain they dont seem to be adding correctly

[Kirby]

It would be nice to know if we are going to be able to sync before cost report is due.

Bill?

[Brownie]

AdamRR - i hae been ignoring the problem and just not syncing my data to the database. it is not an ideal situation, but i cant just sit and wait for them to fix the problem as the due date keeps getting closer. i have also experienced problems with total, especially when you change the quantity of a bearing or a hinge and the price remains the same as a single unit.

the most recent data that i have input has been disappearing. i have put in an assembly and all its parts, then clicked the pencil to add another assembly, and the one just inputted disappears. then when you try to input it again the database tells you that you have conflicting assemblies and will not let you do anything other than exit the program.

anyone have any ideas?

Thanks

[AdamRR]

Brownie - I have been ignoring the errors too.

But it seems the system totals in the reports just dont seem to add up and more expensive than expected.

Have you checked in the reports to see if the information is there?

[Brownie]

AdamRR - not sure whatis going on there, you might need to send an email to katklauz@aol.com

i had a look at the report and the information is not there.

thanks for your help though

[Bill Riley]

Everyone,

We have upgraded the server side to try to fix the problems underlying the 3155 errors many of you were reporting. I have just tried it with my test database and was able to sync. Please give it a try and report any success or failures here so I can see how we're doing. No new download is required.

Regards,

Bill Riley

[Brownie]

unfortunately no success here.

it actually started syncing, unlike before where it would come up with the 3155 error almost instantaneously.

the run query bar gets to about 1/3 of the way across before the application stops responding.

[Bill Riley]

Brownie,

Please email your fca_data.accdb and fcakey file to katklauz@aol.com and I will try to diagnose and advise. The 3155 error being fixed is good news. The other I need to look into.

Any other Australian teams with problems you can also send your datafile and key file to Kathleen and I will take a look.

Thanks,

Bill

[George 4]

I was able to sync with no problems

[Kirby]

Originally posted by Brownie:
unfortunately no success here.

it actually started syncing, unlike before where it would come up with the 3155 error almost instantaneously.

the run query bar gets to about 1/3 of the way across before the application stops responding.

I had my first successful sync ever!

The application stopped responding I just left it alone for probably 45 minutes and it came back to life and completed successfully.

[AdamRR]

I cant seem to find circuit breakers in the cost report?

[danielparsons]

Bill

I have just tried to test print our cost report from the program, it produces some pages but all of the fields are blank and there is no information on them at all. I synced it and tried again but to no avail. Any ideas or suggestions?

Daniel