Asking for advice

[number77]

I can't find in the rule book, anything mentioning outside help.
Something along the lines of asking for advice. Can someone point me in the right direction.

[number77]

I can't find in the rule book, anything mentioning outside help.
Something along the lines of asking for advice. Can someone point me in the right direction.

[BStoney]

Your request here is very vague, as you should probably be more specific...

Nevertheless, a good engineer is one who uses his/her resources to the best of their abilities (within ethical reason...) to accomplish the task at hand.

With that, most resources I could possibly think of for advice are totally within the domain of the rules.

[number77]

How can someone help, that isn't a member of the school/team?
Is advice the only way?

[JerryLH3]

Of course not.

For example, if you need parts CNC machined, but do not have your own CNC machine, then those parts can be outsourced, whether you pay for that service or receive sponsorship for it.

[SpdRcr]

Lets say you need a part made, that you aren't capable of or don't have the time or resources to learn how to make. You can't pay to get it done.

If you have a GOOD question and cannot find it using the search tool, you ask on the forums. Also, sometimes a google search is helpful too (www.google.com)

Lastly, if you have someone come in and build your car for you, then whats the point of doing this competition? You won't learn anything, the judges will tear you apart, and its just morally wrong.

There is nothing wrong with asking questions and getting people to help you learn how to fabricate in the shop. As long as you build everything that goes on your car (within reason, obvsiouly not the engine etc.) and can understand why you built it so, then you are doing things correctly and asking the right questions.

[SpdRcr]

Also, like many teams probably have, we have a mentor who has built cars since the 70s as a profession.

We always seek him for advice on our project. He absolutely does not tell us how to build our car, but he does offer good advice and things we should pay attention too. He also lets us know if he things something may be safe or not since he has done tech for NASCAR (NASCRAP...) and other types of racing.

He also likes to fuck with our heads and keep us on our toes by making crazy suggestions which we need to filter through and decide if hes messing with us or helping us.

This is a good source for adivce and is within rules like everything else I stated above in my previous post.

[Sam Zimmerman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JerryLH3:
Of course not.

For example, if you need parts CNC machined, but do not have your own CNC machine, then those parts can be outsourced, whether you pay for that service or receive sponsorship for it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

2.3.1 Vehicle Eligibility
Vehicles entered into Formula SAE competitions must be conceived, designed,
and fabricated by the students without direct involvement from professional
engineers, automotive engineers, racers, machinists or related professionals.

Paying for parts to be machined is, in fact, against the rules. Luckily for many teams, it is just another one of the many rules the judges fail to enforce.

[TG]

See, I have a little problem with this little bit of rule on what can and can't be done by the team. We have some Ti parts that need to be welded, however, the rules committee is objectionable to it because Ti is hard to weld correctly. Fine, so we say there is a guy around here that is a professional welder who does Ti all day and can do it for us. The rules committee replies that we can't outsource welding because someone else will be building our car then. I've replied and haven't heard back since. I want to know how this is different from somebody turning over a part to a machinist to mill because they are uncapable of doing the job themselves? They aren't designing the car in any way.

[Sam Zimmerman]

I don't see where it is different from turning parts over to a machinist. Many schools do it, it is a violation of the rules, and nobody enforces it.

[JerryLH3]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">


Paying for parts to be machined is, in fact, against the rules. Luckily for many teams, it is just another one of the many rules the judges fail to enforce. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The last sentence of the rule you quoted states:

"Therefore, students should perform all fabrication tasks whenever possible."

To me, that seems if I design an upright, but do not have the means to manufacture it, finding a donor or paying for it to be machined is not against the rules. Not every school or shop has access to a CNC machine.

As the rule states, the intent of the competition is to gain hands on experience, so those situations should be kept to the bare minimum.

[Analogue]

I think people are missing the point of the rule.

Does paint work contribute to the learning process? Maybe, but it also causes cancer.

Does your school have capabilities for surface grinding? That's usually a no.

Who wants to jump up and say that getting tires mounted professionally is a violation?

I completely agree with students operating machines as much as they can. In fact, if you read further down in the rules, it says that all fabrication should be done by students "when possible"

Most schools will not let students touch a CNC machine. The educational process breaks down when students hack away at a piece of metal without prepared drawings. Learning what it takes to outsource a part to a professional machine shop is much more representative of real world engineering.

Before I start catching shit for these statements, the only work we outsource is surface grinding, powdercoating, spherical bearing staking, and PCB fabrication. All cutting, welding, painting, CNC milling, composite layup, sandblasting/prep, etc. is done in house. Personally, I think peforming some of these processes in house is a waste of time.

Keith

[Kirk Feldkamp]

I agree with Keith in many regards. Dealing with real machine shops is a skill that many engineers don't have. I don't think it's a bad thing for teams to use outside shops for certain items. It forces teams to learn how to do a proper drawing that a machinist can understand and work off of. That is a crucial skill to have once you get out of college.

-Kirk

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SpdRcr:
Also, like many teams probably have, we have a mentor who has built cars since the 70s as a profession.

We always seek him for advice on our project. He absolutely does not tell us how to build our car, but he does offer good advice and things we should pay attention too. He also lets us know if he things something may be safe or not since he has done tech for NASCAR (NASCRAP...) and other types of racing.

He also likes to fuck with our heads and keep us on our toes by making crazy suggestions which we need to filter through and decide if hes messing with us or helping us.

This is a good source for adivce and is within rules like everything else I stated above in my previous post. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


hahahahahaha mentor, how about a guy thats good for a signature and filling your ear full of bull shit about how we don't come to him and how its our fault when we dont know the processes with funds and other things around the school. Oh ya and how he claim to have helped us so much, even thought he has never stuck his head in our shop or a meeting
-end rant here

[TG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Analogue:
I completely agree with students operating machines as much as they can. In fact, if you read further down in the rules, it says that all fabrication should be done by students "when possible" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly, that's the point I'm viewing this from.

[SpdRcr]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by drivetrainUW-Platt:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SpdRcr:
Also, like many teams probably have, we have a mentor who has built cars since the 70s as a profession.

We always seek him for advice on our project. He absolutely does not tell us how to build our car, but he does offer good advice and things we should pay attention too. He also lets us know if he things something may be safe or not since he has done tech for NASCAR (NASCRAP...) and other types of racing.

He also likes to fuck with our heads and keep us on our toes by making crazy suggestions which we need to filter through and decide if hes messing with us or helping us.

This is a good source for adivce and is within rules like everything else I stated above in my previous post. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


hahahahahaha mentor, how about a guy thats good for a signature and filling your ear full of bull shit about how we don't come to him and how its our fault when we dont know the processes with funds and other things around the school. Oh ya and how he claim to have helped us so much, even thought he has never stuck his head in our shop or a meeting
-end rant here </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, I guess that is the other side of the specturm in regards to mentors.

In regards to some of the statements earlier, dealing with machinists, sponsors, and people in general has been on of the most valuable things I have learned with FSAE and other internships.

The ability to communicate well with others and get parts to a machinist (for example) without complication and get the part back the way you want it is very important. This saves money/time for whatever company you work for, which means you keep your job.