FSAE running in SCCA Solo

[Chuckster]

Since I saw a thread on U.K. Hillclimb, I thought it might be appropriate to introduce some information and food for thought regarding FSAE in US SCCA Solo.

FSAE cars have always been and still are strongly embraced as a sub-class within the "all-out" A-modified SCCA Solo class.

The 900 lb (409.1 kg) with driver minimum weight for A-mod is waived as long as the car meets the current FSAE requirements. The FSAE does not have to be a current car and the driver/owner does not have to be a student.

While the min weight is waived, all safely regulations still need to be meet. Roll hoop height above driver's helmut, etc

What concerns me as an individual is that excessive liberties might be taken by some FSAE participants. This may jeopardize FSAE driver and course workers safety. This may happen because the FSAE participant does not understand the full intent of some of the SCCA rules.

One abuse is removal of engine inlet restrictors when running local SCCA events. If the construction of the car is not up to a significant increase in power and resulting speed and forces, so there is a safety issue in addition to a competition parity issue.

Moveable aerodynamic devices is another concern. Absolutely no one in any class of SCCA solo or SCCA road racing is allowed to have an aero surface that moves relative to the rest of the car during a competition run. The underlying reason is safety to drivers and course workers.

I do not understand why if FSAE is supposed to based on theoretical use by a "weekend autocrosser"� that that moveable aero devices would be permitted by the FASE rules themselves. Is FSAE diverging from its original concept? Just curious.

This evidently would apply to wings with variable angles of attack and old Lotus Formula-one-like undertrays that move with the suspension uprights relative to the chassis.

If a car with significant downforce loses downforce suddenly, the car can travel very long distances off the course line. This is especially true if the surface has a pavement debris berm. That surface condition is characteristic of the SCCA National event which is now on a giant gritty asphalt pavement in Topeka.

If a moveable device comes loose and leaves the car during a run, it might slide along at ground level or perhaps even fly up and hit someone. Upright mounted undertrays might constitute a risk since some SCCA course surfaces are incredibly bumpy and those trays will see all wheel movements directly without benefit of damping by shocks or chassis mass.

Loss of control and wild off-course excursions are indeed still possible from non-aero related malfunctions, but moveable aero malfunctions can contribute to a greater statistical risk.

Solo is not the same safety situation as in road racing since SCCA Solo has very unprotected corner workers.

Solo course workers do not have course curbs or walls, tire walls or concrete bunkers to protect them from errant vehicles and flying parts as in road racing. Finally, some (not all) SCCA courses allow much higher speeds than the official FSAE events.

[exFSAE]

I completely agree.

As the endurance event is evidence of.. it is often hard enough to keep these cars from flying apart or grenading within the strict limits of FSAE design.. much less pushing the limit further than that!

[Kirk Feldkamp]

...and some of you guys called ME a 'Nancy' when I said I thought that guy was gonna die on his GSXR Kart of Doom... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

The power to weight ratio of a 100hp FSAE car is very close to the same as a stock-moto 125 and certainly less than an ICC 125. Frankly, I'd be surprised if many FSAE cars could even come close to putting down 100hp to the ground.

Racing isn't safe. It never has been. It never will be. If you're too worried about the consequences, then this probably isn't the right sport for you.

-Kirk

[exFSAE]

I think what Chuckster is getting at is running a car beyond its intended design limit. If your car is built to run at 95+ hp, then cool!

But there are cars that cannot handle 70hp, with rear uprights snapping under the weight transfer on the acceleration lane (though that was a while ago). I've seen cars at competition running 15:1 (or so they claimed) compression with 50+ deg advance across the map (I believe they mentioned their ECU wouldn't let them run any more). That boggled me and our engine guy and how their engine was not melted. During enduro they threw a rod and their car went up in flames.

In addition, how much of FSAE is an all-out racing event, how much is engineering? It isn't all the former.

Sure, any sort of motorsport is going to be dangerous or risky. But there's a difference between risky, and un-necessarily risky, and/or just plain dumb.

[Superfast Matt McCoy]

I think in most SCCA mod classes there are no rules against toothpick uprights, high compression, or spark advance. I saw a fox body mustang break an upright at an SCCA event a while back. Sure, there are people in FSAE that are going to exceed the limit of their cars, but you could get that in any class. That's why they put the corner workers in places where an out of control car is unlikely to go. For years the SCCA has had a great safety record with the an A mod, 900 pound, faster than FSAE, hold my beer while I see what nitromethane does to my power curve people. I don't think FSAE is going to screw that up, no matter what size your restrictor is.

And if you're talking about Oklahoma, it was 12.8:1 with 52 degrees maximum. I think that advance is pretty common for a race f4i. we ran 65 in the previous year car with no problems.

[exFSAE]

Was not Oklahoma.. I don't think. If I'm not mistaken this would have been at the first MPG competition.

[Chuckster]

I was young once and felt I could live forever; and I certainly have run a car when I knew it was on the edge and might break.

I have have also crashed heavily at a low speed solo. Probably slower top speed than any FSAE official event. Bent the car in the middle by almost taking down a tree. Car was totalled. Not worth rebuilding-I was fine-had a cage.

None of this means anything when it comes to the responsibility of preventing hurt to others.

"Solo course workers do not have course curbs or walls, tire walls or concrete bunkers to protect them from errant vehicles and flying parts"

I also might add that at Topeka at SCCA Nationals, there are pictures of course workers slipping on the gritty surface and falling down trying to get out of the way of the next car after resetting a cone.

At an event a few years ago a car got loose near the finish and slipped way off line and cut off a spectator's leg (totally severed) by pinning him against a car trailer. He had no where to run, the trailer blocked his exit. Probably happened too fast for most people to react even if they had a place to go.

Those are really separate problems from my musings above but I just want to stress the vulnerability of solo course workers.

[fade]

I also might add that at Topeka at SCCA Nationals, there are pictures of course workers slipping on the gritty surface and falling down trying to get out of the way of the next car after resetting a cone.


Resetting cones while the cars are on the course is in "rodeo clown" territory anyway. Maybe the track should be lined with concrete barriers if spectator and course worker saftey is a problem.

[vreihen]

I also might add that at Topeka at SCCA Nationals, there are pictures of course workers slipping on the gritty surface and falling down trying to get out of the way of the next car after resetting a cone.

This event is a unique case, due to it's size. If everything is running on schedule, they generally have 32 seconds between cars on the course. I've seen the schedule slip to the point of having 15 seconds between cars, and running from a worker station (a safe distance from the course) to reset a downed cone and getting back to the safe worker station in 15 seconds is a challenge. I was working the radio at a station, and calling in the penalties at that pace was just as difficult when there were cones flying all over the course.

If you ever see an SCCA member input request for extending Nationals from 4 to 6 days, make sure to vote yes.....

[Composites Guy]

I'm all for safety, and not a risk taker by nature.... but let's keep the engineering sound in our discussions.

Lets say you have a 70hp restricted FSAE car that is well designed to take the necessary forces without breaking. Now you simply unrestrict the engine, stick the stock bike ecu and airbox on and get 100+ hp. Do the forces on the uprights, suspension etc. really change (assuming equal weight cars)? Aren't the maximum forces a function of wheel grip, car weight and weight distribution? Is the engine more or less likely to blow up? I'd say the japs make a pretty good engine till we screw 'em up. I'm making an arguement that going restrictorless doesn't necessarily break cars that are already soundly designed.

I do agree with you though that the excessive speed that comes with more power will add to the danger level.

[Davo]

Pulling away from a standing start and cornering wouldn't bee too different because as you say, the limiting factor is the grip generated by the tires which we easily reach in normal FSAE comps. The problem with running un-restricted engines would be the top speeds reached. I doubt the designer of the car's brakes was thinking of stops from 150kph when they did their calculations. (Sorry, you guys are American and I use metric. I think the imperial conversion is 4 3/4 furlongs per fortnight http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) Also things like the crash attenuator and side impact structure aren't designed for that sort of stuff. I don't think teams are going out there to try and build death machines to break the land speed record. I think Chuckster is just raising the point so that people stop and have a think before they race.

[Kyle Walther]

Originally posted by Chuckster:


What concerns me as an individual is that excessive liberties might be taken by some FSAE participants. This may jeopardize FSAE driver and course workers safety. This may happen because the FSAE participant does not understand the full intent of some of the SCCA rules.

One abuse is removal of engine inlet restrictors when running local SCCA events. If the construction of the car is not up to a significant increase in power and resulting speed and forces, so there is a safety issue in addition to a competition parity issue.


But isn't this true for any participants who choses to cheat. The rules state that the restrictor must be in place. If it is removed then the car should have never passed tech inspection.

Personally i am more afraid of the people with over powered large vehicles.. the Over confident novice in his Z06's on street tires. That being said even the most experienced Cone chaser can lose it in a big way. accidents happen and ultimately it is up to the Course Chief and Safety Stewards to make sure that event is run in a safe manor.

[Erich Ohlde]

I am much more worried about the CP guys with their WELDED aluminum wheels on a 3000lb car with 500hp and terrible grip going towards a corner worker than an FSAE car that is MAYBE 500lbs. At the least most corner workers that are fetching cones (generally the young guys as the old guys take the radio and red flag) have the ability to jump over a car that is sliding due to a broken suspension component.

[vreihen]

Originally posted by Kyle Walther:

But isn't this true for any participants who choses to cheat. The rules state that the restrictor must be in place. If it is removed then the car should have never passed tech inspection.

Tech at an SCCA event only looks for safety problems, not legality of any particular vehicle in it's entered class.

The problem is that there are two car specs for A-Mod:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> A 900 pound minimum weight, with 20 square feet of wing, unlimited engine, a 72" wheelbase, and a 42" track.

<LI> An FSAE car, with no minimum weight, 60" wheelbase, no track restrictions, and a 600cc engine with restrictor plate in place.

[/list]

You cannot swap rules between the two, unless the result is 100% legal in the other car spec. For instance, if you built an FSAE car with a 72" wheelbase and 42" track and weight it to 900 pounds, you can remove the restrictor plate as long as it meets the rest of the A-mod spec.

One thing that I will suggest for all FSAE teams who might show up at an SCCA event for seat time is to ensure that your rollbar is made of 1.0" X 0.060" steel tubing, with braces that are at least 30 degrees from the vertical per the SCCA's Solo Rulebook Appendix C. I don't know what the FSAE specs are for rollbar materials, but have seen some pictures of cars with bracing that I would want to measure with a protractor for compliance with the 30-degree rule.....

[Superfast Matt McCoy]

Originally posted by jayhawk_electrical:
I am much more worried about the CP guys with their WELDED aluminum wheels on a 3000lb car with 500hp and terrible grip going towards a corner worker than an FSAE car that is MAYBE 500lbs.

C Prepared... I worry about those cars when I'm not even at the track, afraid they're going to mug me in an alley somewhere.

But the point of this thread was that FSAE cars could pose a greater threat, which is clearly not true. In response to the posts about the danger of solo in general, I've never entertained the idea that I was perfectly safe while working the course; I've always thought of it as part of the excitement. I've never really felt in danger either, even when that yellow and blue FSAE car skidded towards me at nationals (who was that? Kentucky? Kettering? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). And while you can pick out select instances where people have been injured at SCCA events, I can pick out select instances where people have been injured by escalators. On the whole, they are both reasonably safe. The freedoms you have to do stuff like SCCA solo means that others have those freedoms too and some of them are going to do some stupid shit that occasionally gets people hurt and costs everyone money. That's the price you pay. If you don't like it, don't go to a solo event. And I don't want to see you on any escalators either.

[Kyle Walther]

But according to your argument wouldn't removing the restrictor be a safety concern.. so shouldn't they look for it..

[vreihen]

Originally posted by Kyle Walther:

But according to your argument wouldn't removing the restrictor be a safety concern.. so shouldn't they look for it..

Tech inspectors at a Solo don't have engineering degrees, and some of the best ones in the country are still baffled by the drive-by-wire throttle in my stock-class car because it doesn't have a return spring to check.

It is the competitor's responsibility to provide a safe/legal car, and there's a protest system in place should someone else in the class question the legality of another competitor. Granted, this doesn't stop someone from removing a restrictor plate on a light/short FSAE car and running it illegally (especially if they're running in an uncontested class like A-Mod is in most regions), but that's why there a waiver system in place and published rules to place the liability for the competitor's actions squarely on them.....

[Kyle Walther]

Originally posted by vreihen:


Tech inspectors at a Solo don't have engineering degrees, and some of the best ones in the country are still baffled by the drive-by-wire throttle in my stock-class car because it doesn't have a return spring to check.


Then become a tech inspector or educate them by contacting your region Chair about the need for tech inspectors to make sure that all FSAE cars have their restrictors in place. And that a FSAE car without a restrictor posses a serious safety concern.

[vreihen]

Originally posted by Kyle Walther:

And that a FSAE car without a restrictor posses a serious safety concern.

If you feel that this is a legitimate safety concern, I advise you to submit it to the SCCA's Solo Events Board for follow-up, instead of whining about it here. Their e-mail address is: seb@scca.com. Make sure to include your name and SCCA membership number on any correspondence.....

[Kyle Walther]

i'm not the one whining about it.. as i said before i am more afraid of escalators.. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[vreihen]

Originally posted by Kyle Walther:

i'm not the one whining about it.. as i said before i am more afraid of escalators.. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

...and I'm half way done building a 200+ HP A-mod car out of popsicle sticks and duct tape. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Seriously though, escalators are a serious safety problem. More than once, I've had to fore-check someone off the platform because they stepped off and came to a complete stop due to not having made a decision about which way to walk on the ride up/down. No matter how safe you make the machine, some idiot will find a way to make a domino effect of falling people just by being themselves.....

[Composites Guy]

Question for you SCCA-acquainted peoples:

I'm half way done building a car for fun. It meets FSAE rules as per the 2007 rulebook when I started, except for the restrictor (that's phase two of my project if I get the urge). It is built to take the extra horsepower. It will be 46" track, 69" wheelbase, ~550 lbs and 100+hp. I am planning to run in non-SCCA autocrossing in Jersey, with a view towards acquiring street legality later (yes I've read all the laws and the neccessary modifications are possible). My question is, would I be allowed to run at an SCCA event at all?

[Kyle Walther]

i dunno about the amod/fsae rules

i think for you to run in FSAE(Class) it must compete in an FSAE event and pass tech inspection there..

The legality of running a say 08 car in SCCA events before detroit is questionable.. you will see some teams running the AMOD designation before detroit. but weather this is truely legal i don't know

[vreihen]

Originally posted by Composites Guy:

It will be 46" track, 69" wheelbase, ~550 lbs and 100+hp. (snip) My question is, would I be allowed to run at an SCCA event at all?

As stated above, it is up to the individual competitor to provide a legal vehicle for their chosen class. If you can stretch the wheelbase by 3" and ballast it up to 900 pounds with the driver, you should be 100% legal (and able to sleep at night).

What may come as a surprise to those only familiar with the FSAE process of multi-day tech inspections, a typical autocross event's tech is about 30 seconds long. There's no tools, tape measures, or scales present at a local event. Everything is on the honor system, and generally you will have no problem unless you beat somebody who calls your illegality. Going to a National tour, Divisional, or the National Championship is a different story, since they make every Mod car cross the scales after their run group as a part of impound. At a local event however, everyone is just out to have a good time.

With that said, I am no stranger to NJ autox events, and might wind up being your competition some day. As long as I leave with the trophy at the end of the day, I'll leave the tape measure in my toolbox. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Seriously though, I have more trophies than shelf space right now, so the bling, bling hardware doesn't matter much to me.

The last time I was at an Englishtown event, there was a guy driving someone's 1999 FSAE car in A-mod, and he looked like he could use a little competition.....

[Chris Allbee]

Let me just toss some numbers in this pissing match.

SCCA requires 1.00"x.065" for a roll hoop on a 900lb car with conceivably 300+ horsepower and 20 ft^2 of wing surface (I'm assuming in plan view). The result is a very fast car capable of over 2g of cornering acceleration. Thats a lot of kinetic energy to dissipate should something go wrong.

FSAE requires a 1.00" x .095" roll hoop for what averages 450 to 500 pounds these days on a car that could have between 50 and 90 horsepower depending on who you talk to. Effective aero is limited by the size of the tracks that the car has to navigate.

ok, so 900lbs for 300 horsepower = 3lbs/hp

450 lbs for 90hp= 5lbs/hp

not to mention the rarity of proper aero in the series effectively limits cornering capabilities to an average of 1.6-1.8g

Off the top I'd say the FSAE car has quite a bit less energy potential than the A-mod and it has a stronger roll hoop. So safety plus in its direction.

As has been cited above, racing vehicles need greater maintenance than your daily driver. Anyone who invests in a full time race vehicle should understand that. Or are you saying that the person who buys an A-mod (or builds one) is better qualified to discern the structural capacity and operable fatigue life better than the person who purchases a used FSAE car? Or are you just assuming that the only people who take these cars to autocross are students, who you seem to think have no concept of safety and/or engineering practice/standards?

I'll reference you back to the CP car mentioned above with the welded rims. A tech inspector who has ANY knowledge of aluminum and welding would have not let that car on the track without a certificate or original manufacturers statement declaring that it had been heat treated and the spec of the treatment.

Do I think that unrestricted FSAE cars pose a greater risk than any other formula vehicle at an SCCA event? No. In fact, in most cases its lower mass, profile, and fluid capacities would work to minimize the resulting damage should the unthinkable happen.

/End Rant

P.S. kyle, heard your coming back for detroit...

[Composites Guy]

Please reference my post above regarding my upcoming auto-x car. At a local SCCA event does everyone fall into a class, or (if my car falls outside of every class and is still deemed safe) can I just drive for fun without expecting a trophy for a specific class?

[Kyle Walther]

http://www.scca.org/documents/Solo%20Rules/2008_Solo_Rules_2.pdf

[vreihen]

Originally posted by Composites Guy:

At a local SCCA event does everyone fall into a class, or (if my car falls outside of every class and is still deemed safe) can I just drive for fun without expecting a trophy for a specific class?

The SCCA does give regions some latitude for making up local-only classes if necessary, but it is up to the judgment of the local region for making classing decisions based on safety. When it was my call, I made classes on the fly for Columbia University and RPI's FSAE teams for pre-Detroit testing when they showed up at various events. (With four drivers in the same car making up their private FSAE class, there were obviously no protests.) http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If somebody showed up wanting to run a shifter kart with a Hayabusa engine, would we let them run in F125? No way!!! If somebody showed up with an A-mod-type car that looked like a duck, quacked like a duck, but waddled like a penguin, the local event organizers would probably say close enough to reasonably be considered a duck and let them run (as long as nobody else in A-mod objected to the waddling).

The answer to the second part of your question depends on the local group as well. Out on the west coast and in some southern regions, they run an "X" class which is for exhibition (time only, no trophy). Here on the east coast, this is not very common.

It seems like you're seeking a yes/no answer to something that's really up to the local Solo chairs, and there is no generic answer in shades of gray. I will say that the SCCA isn't a bunch of stuck-up old guys like some people think, so you may be surprised when nobody notices or cares that your duck waddles like a penguin...as long as it has a rollbar and all of the other safety requirements of a duck.....