Cars on two wheels and possible rule changes

[Jim400]

I don't know if anyone else noticed the amount of cars with three and even 2 wheels in the air while cornering at the Formula Student competition. The worst I saw was the Ryerson car which had the inside wheels at least 2 foot in the air on one occasion, this was mostly due to the drivers all out driving style, tiny brake and then hard turn in coupled with loads of power. His style was fantastic to watch but caught him out on more than 2 occasions, the second causing the two wheel incident that he saved causing him to run wide and 180 the car, in a hurry to get back on track he further 360 the car and drove at on coming traffic to just control and huge power sliding 180. I also heard of Oxford Brooks getting two wheels in the air during the endurance.

I imaging this has suddenly come about because of the new better condition surface on the kart track and with the softest tyres being used. I think if not in the immediate future but soon the rules will be changed to stop this dangerous events happening. I have a few thoughts about what they will change to combat this problem:

1. Wider track and thus longer wheelbase
2. Lower cg ie a tilt table test that requires a higher angle (may cause ballast in the bottom of cars which could also be dangerous)
3. A control tyre for all teams

I think they may go for the easy option and go for a control tyre because it eliminates the problem straight away and they can make money from an international sponsorship deal. I believe this is not the way forward because the tyre selection of teams is a very important part of the design stage and causes an important decision early on in each program.

James Waters
Chassis Designer, Suspension, Packaging and Race Engineer
University of Hertforshire Car 20

[Jim400]

I don't know if anyone else noticed the amount of cars with three and even 2 wheels in the air while cornering at the Formula Student competition. The worst I saw was the Ryerson car which had the inside wheels at least 2 foot in the air on one occasion, this was mostly due to the drivers all out driving style, tiny brake and then hard turn in coupled with loads of power. His style was fantastic to watch but caught him out on more than 2 occasions, the second causing the two wheel incident that he saved causing him to run wide and 180 the car, in a hurry to get back on track he further 360 the car and drove at on coming traffic to just control and huge power sliding 180. I also heard of Oxford Brooks getting two wheels in the air during the endurance.

I imaging this has suddenly come about because of the new better condition surface on the kart track and with the softest tyres being used. I think if not in the immediate future but soon the rules will be changed to stop this dangerous events happening. I have a few thoughts about what they will change to combat this problem:

1. Wider track and thus longer wheelbase
2. Lower cg ie a tilt table test that requires a higher angle (may cause ballast in the bottom of cars which could also be dangerous)
3. A control tyre for all teams

I think they may go for the easy option and go for a control tyre because it eliminates the problem straight away and they can make money from an international sponsorship deal. I believe this is not the way forward because the tyre selection of teams is a very important part of the design stage and causes an important decision early on in each program.

James Waters
Chassis Designer, Suspension, Packaging and Race Engineer
University of Hertforshire Car 20

[Chris Clarke]

I think that Carrol Smith predicted this happening, and wanted the direction to go towards mandatory open differentials. The thinking was that this would cause the teams to run softer suspensions, therefore less lifting of the inner tires.

[TG]

Or, they can just do what they did at the U.S. event and give out quick warnings and disqualify those teams that continually have their wheels lifting off they ground. Having no points awarded for the endurance event would be discouragement enough I would think.

[Denny Trimble]

I guess I missed that, but I was at the autocross and endurance driver's meetings, and drove both events...

They should make the tilt test higher if they're worried about cars lifting both inside wheels.

[Greg H]

I agree with Tim, penalize the ones that do it, not all the rest of us.

[TG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Denny Trimble:
I guess I missed that </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

At least at the '04 race, MSU didn't even get a warning before they were disqualified, from what I heard. From what I recall is that it was their second driver. The first one had been lifting the tires slightly off the ground, but the judges made no mention of it. For the second driver, his inside tires were lifting a bit more and the judges pulled the car off without a warning. I know they were pretty pissed about that.

[vinHonda]

I drove w/ MSU's second driver in 2004. I got blue flagged on the back section and flew by when I pulled into the be-passed lane...... after that there is a quick flick left and a short spurt to a long right carousel in about 3rd gear..... and I followed the car as it had lifted both inside wheels a solid 2 ft in the air. I thought nothing of it at the time.

But they did LOSE time as mid corner, I made up ground on them and nearly had to brake.....and they got penalized.

I think the issue comes to testing. The 04 FSAE track was FAST....but still remained inside the FSAE rulebook guidelines. Speeds were also inside the rulebook guidelines. BUT, guidelines are just that...... there is SO much room for track design within the rules.

Traditionally, FSAE had been tight...twisty, lots of slaloms. etc. Typically what teams had interpreted the rules to be an autocross style event. Fstudent is this way.....tight.

I think MSU caught on to this year after year of really tight tracks and built a really small car, shorter wheelbase. When I first saw MSU in 04, it reminded me of Tokyo Denki's size.

I think they got slapped in the face when the 04 FSAE track came out w/ NO SLALOMS, multiple high speed sweepers and a BUMPY surface. The track was still within the rules....

It comes down to testing. I bet many teams out there don't really have access to a facility where they can build a sweeper that they can fly through at 70-80km/h. Sure, in our university parking lots, we can build straights, and slaloms...but it'd be nice to set up the car for a fast track too.

I guess that's how diverse our series really is... it can be sweeping fast like Silverstone, but then there are tracks as tight as Monaco.

Cheers,

[Craig Dawson]

I was driving the Brookes car at FS last weekend when we got onto 2 two's. It was my out lap, and I hadn't driven the car in the sprint on the saturday. To be honest I did get the shock of my life. Apparently both right side wheels were 1.5 to 2 ft in the air.

The reason for this was a high speed change of direction. With our previous car you gave it a little flick into the corner and it was beautifully balanced through it, the new one, well, lets just say you couldnt do that.

Howard Ash and I went and had a really good look at the track at the end of the day to work out what had happened and it appears too just be incredibly grippy tarmac, nothing more. We didnt have any such problems anywhere else on the course, only on the kart track part.

Did anyone manage too get a photo of it, I would love to see it! I think one of the Drexel guys said he had it on camera.

At the end of the day, stopping this happening is going to be a tricky thing too do. With tyres getting softer and cars getting lighter it is always going to be a risk. We have a relatively free diff in our current car, and trust me, an open diff wouldnt stop it, our car wasnt picking a wheel up anywhere else on the track.

[markocosic]

The cars have roll-hoops for this reason?

If the roll-hoops are no good/not up to rules spec or spirit of the rules the scrutineers will make you change them to compete. (Brunel for one were very busy welding in some rear stays on Friday)

You can be disqualified/DNFed for lifting wheels or driving too aggressively?

Does it really need a change in the rules? They already mandate roll-over safety eqpt and can stop you from driving if wheels are consistently off the floor. Worst case is a car rolls (Is this really the end of the world? The car would be a writeoff but I doubt it'd hurt anybody) or you are not allowed to continue.

Perhaps add a 'moose test' of sorts as part of the tilt test. Please tilt to 1.7g equivalent, then drive through this slalom at 40mph without flipping over to test for the dynamic response of the vehicle? Don't think control tyres, lower CGs or wider tracks are neccessarily much help.

Besides, its good for publicity/spectating/entertainment when the cars don't just romp around the track like they're on rails... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[vinHonda]

I don't think you can just put it down to grippy tires and a light car. Do you have tire data to verify this? Does your suspension geometry take into account the maximum available lateral loads the tires can feedback? How long is your wheelbase? Ryerson's car has a MASSIVE track, but I hear it was still lifting?

Rules wise...a control tire is fair....but not fun. But a car definitely should not be lifting wheels....besides, u're not going around the corner at its fastest speed if u're lifting inside wheels.

Cheers,

[kozak]

although i haven't been to a fsae event yet i can tell you this even with all the safety rules and safety checks it is very easy for things to go wrong quick. Take for example the latest, 2005 mini baja midwest. i was at this race with my team and we were aboout 45 min into the enduro when i heard over a judges radio that a car was on fire. so i think ok theres a little puff of smoke coming out of one of the cars. well apparently the car had flipped backwards causing gas to spill onto the exaust, mind you that after the car had gone through a extensive safety check. so the car was laying on its back with the driver stuck inside the unable to get out. the extinguisher from the car wasn't big enough to put out the fire so the carnage crew and judges started grabbing extinguishers from other cars. long story short that car burned for atleast 2 to 3 min before it could be put out and the driver ended up with a burn on his arm. so what i guess i'm trying to say is that yes i am just as pissed when ever the judges add somehting to the car to make it go slower but rolling over is never just rolling over, especially in a student designed and build vehicle.

[Neil S]

I agree with not liking the rules that are made to slow us down and make things safer, but when you look at the events safety crew vs professional series they are quite different. Its a big deal when any race car rolls over, but with professional events they have more safety crew at the events and they are usually professionals/full time with that series. Even then the teams have to deal with the safety rules that slow them down. Even though rules are an attempt to slow things down the best teams will always find a way to go as fast or faster anyway.

[rjwoods77]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kozak:
although i haven't been to a fsae event yet i can tell you this even with all the safety rules and safety checks it is very easy for things to go wrong quick. Take for example the latest, 2005 mini baja midwest. i was at this race with my team and we were aboout 45 min into the enduro when i heard over a judges radio that a car was on fire. so i think ok theres a little puff of smoke coming out of one of the cars. well apparently the car had flipped backwards causing gas to spill onto the exaust, mind you that after the car had gone through a extensive safety check. so the car was laying on its back with the driver stuck inside the unable to get out. the extinguisher from the car wasn't big enough to put out the fire so the carnage crew and judges started grabbing extinguishers from other cars. long story short that car burned for atleast 2 to 3 min before it could be put out and the driver ended up with a burn on his arm. so what i guess i'm trying to say is that yes i am just as pissed when ever the judges add somehting to the car to make it go slower but rolling over is never just rolling over, especially in a student designed and build vehicle. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey kozak,

You on University of Daytons Baja Team?

[Kerry]

Our car was on two wheels for a second just once during the FS enduro this year, and that was the first time in all of our testing that has happened. Our accelerometer data showed 1.9 g's through several corners, which is also significantly higher than we had seen in testing.

Before going to a rule change, however, I would look at enforcing the existing rules first. The tilt table they were using was an I-beam with supports at its ends, and a winch to raise the platform. It didn't have adequate width to tilt our car to 60 degrees. Our roll hoop and wing touched the supports at somewhere near 50 degrees and they said that was good enough. I didn't stay and watch, but it looked like several cars would have had trouble tilting even that far, just because of the location and height of their roll hoops and body work. This doesn't mean that these cars wouldn't have passed the test it they had been able to tilt to 60 degrees (I know our car would have passed and we still managed to get on two wheels) but I would suggest a new tilt table for the British competition - either an actuator underneath the bed or a wider span on the I-beam.

[ben]

They had that problem last year and have clearly done nothing to fix it - concerning.

Ben

[Gareth]

I've been told by an official from the SCCA that they have been pushing for faster FSAE courses that are more representative of actual autocross tracks. Check out the video on UTA's website of the SCCA nationals and it'll be very clear why UTA likes wings - the courses are still faster than ours. They do have an argument as the whole competition is based around building cars for autocross, not fsae tracks.

As for keeping wheels on the ground I agree with Vinh. Two wheels in the air is slower than 4 wheels on the ground. Teams should be designing their cars to meet the G requirements and if they can't they should be appropriately penalized, like using ballast. If they don't like the ballast then be prepared to be kicked off track when your car picks up both inside tires. The beauty of this series is how unregulated it is and consequently you get to learn a lot by innovating (or choosing not to innovate for the right reasons). Running a spec tire throws a large and interesting part of the equation out the window. Rule changes should either be for safety, which they generally are, or they should be to drive innovation, which they all ultimately do (how do we make these heavy side impact tubes shorter?).

[kozak]

yes i am on the UD baja formula team

[Korey Morris]

Does anyone have pics of cars pulling onto two wheels?

[Frank]

We have only ever ONCE 2 wheeled our car

and that was at formula student (on the runway / practice area)

we figured it was:

1 High Grip
2 The gale force wind literally helping to blow the car over

this car has done a lot of miles with good drivers too

[rjwoods77]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kozak:
yes i am on the UD baja formula team </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kozak,

You can thank me for introducing that matex planetary,fox springless shocks, and the hipertech wheels to you guys. You had a real jumper this year. Congrats on the finish in midwest. I am proud of you guys. Just buy some shim stacks and oil from fox. Slow down your rebound rate in the back and speed up the rebound rate in the front. That will get rid of alot of that nose in trait on big jumps that you and everyone else in baja always fights. You want the front supension to spring the front up as fast as possible and you want the rear to stop pushing so hard on the back whcih rotates the cars nose into the ground after the front wheels get airborn. I keep forgetting your guys names but I talk to ultrablue302 and kiedost all the time. I was there in 2002 with the MCC minibaja team. I was the head engineer. Maybe you remeber me. We stayed in that dorm right next to that road with the graveyard where you guys stayed down the hall from us. I miss mini baja so much.


Everyone else: The really old rules required that all 4 wheels stay on the ground if i remember right. That was one of the founding rules i think. Someone ask Dr. Bob about that. He should remember if it was or not.

[Gumby]

We were seeing 2.4G grip at the FStudent event, obviously alot more than the 1.7G they test for in the tilt test.

[Colin]

i've posted this pick before but i thought it was relevent.
http://gtv.seddon.ca/images/2003/DSC00207.JPG

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

holy shit http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif, thats just scary and unsafe!

[Raphaël Rochette]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gumby:
We were seeing 2.4G grip at the FStudent event, obviously alot more than the 1.7G they test for in the tilt test. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

2.4G! you mean that you got a spike at 2.4 or is it sustained?

Raphael Rochette
Laval university
http://www.gmc.ulaval.ca/fsae

[Igor]

There was a lot of two wheel action at FS, even on wider tracked cars. Maybe teams that lift wheels should be sent back to to pits to mount a set of these :-)
http://www.variflex.com/images/cycle/acc-TrainingWheels.jpg

Seriously though. As there aren't many rules on how to mount and brace the roll bar to the rest of the chassis, I don't think all the cars will survive an upside down impact. If the car with the fire-display (Leeds?) combined that with a roll-over things would get really scary really quick.
I would favour a steeper angle on the tilt table.

Igor

[Craig Dawson]

Im not being funny, but how is a Steeper angle on the tilt table going too help, all it is going too mean is that many teams dont get too run at the competition. Very few teams are going too be able too predict it within there designs before testing it as they dont carry out Mass analysis.

I do think it is due to stickier tyres and Im currently trying too get the info someone asked for.

I know our C of G is at 260mm, hardly high, with 1250mm Track, hardly narrow, yet we were on two wheels

[Gumby]

the 2.4G was sustained, we were seeing spikes of 3G in some places on the track.

[Craig Dawson]

I will have a look at our data tonight and see what we were pulling in the enduro. I know we were pulling 1.45 on the skid pan as our driveshaft gave way.

[Z]

You guys worry too much. What's wrong with a bit of two-wheeling fun? It teaches you good car control.

I propose a new Dynamic event. Car that goes furthest around the Autocross course on two wheels only scores highest points. No seatbelt or helmet to be worn, and driver must be naked.

Problem solved. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Z

[Craig Dawson]

Oh Im not complaining Z, but it would appear the organisers dont like it as they are pulling people for it!

Im up for your competition idea though! Reckon it should be done at the end of the event though. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Dr Claw]

i think i saw video of UTA on two wheels once, that was at an SCCA even though i think. i also have footage of the rollover from the 2004 fsae event too...which was pretty wild to watch.

keep in mind that the roll hoops and safty features aim to keep drivers from dieing...not free from injury. pulling 3 Gs, lifting, and then rolling (which would lead to tumbling) is gonna hurt. i'd say raise the design standards since a lot of the teams are catching on to what FSAE is all about.

i'd also like to see the 420 lb LITTLE car go away because they weigh so much less than us (http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif) but thats another story..

[kozak]

rob woods check your pm's

[Freedom Fries]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gumby:
the 2.4G was sustained, we were seeing spikes of 3G in some places on the track. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What kind of skid-pad times were you guys running? Also, what tires? This seems really high to me.

[Buckingham]

Are those 2.4 G's corrected for roll angle?
How do you calibrate your accelerometer?
What is it's uncertainty? (NOT its resolution)
Is your accelerometer sensitive to thermal drift?

[Denny Trimble]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Craig Dawson:
Im not being funny, but how is a Steeper angle on the tilt table going too help, all it is going too mean is that many teams dont get too run at the competition. Very few teams are going too be able too predict it within there designs before testing it as they dont carry out Mass analysis.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? We've done a mass analysis on every car we built, either with a spreadsheet (part mass and X,Y,Z location) or with a solid model. It's not that difficult to get an estimate, and the more work you put into it, the closer it should be. There is even data available on humans (mass for each limb, etc) to help you.

A higher angle on the tilt test would prevent some cars from running; those that have a higher chance of rolling over in a steady-state corner. Especially if your course has a higher than usual level of grip, this is a real safety concern and should be addressed.

[BryanH]

Take this with a pinch of goatshit if you want,
When a young kart driver gets to test an ICA kart on sticky tyres he will learn not to ever coast into a corner at speed as the kart will at minimum bicycle and if he has enough speed on board will flip into the barriers in a blink!
The only way is to be hard on the brakes or hard on the gas with no time lapse btwn the two, and on a sticky track 3g's + is the norm with no bicycling.

In ref to the Brookes car, 1250 rear track is very narrow for a grippy track and Craig's description of the 2 wheel event seems to mirror the above scenario.
btw 2.4g in those conditions is very possible.

[jjusb]

3Gs in an fsae car....... without aero.... what tires were you running, I want those for our car http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.
It really does seem too high.

[JIGGY]

Bryan Hester,

Why would we take that with a pinch of goatshit when your comments are utter BULLshit!!!


Having driven an ICA a numerous amount of times, i can tell you that method of driving is a certain way to flip yourself on various types of corner. I do not wish to hear any theory on the matter, it is simply fact that coasting is sometimes required in high grip situations!

As per the driving of the brookes car, we can assure you that the two wheeled moments directly correlated with use of the throttle pedal! If you would ike to see the MoTeC traces of the incident just holla.

There is no need to change regulations for this poblem, drivers must simply drive within the 4 wheeled capabilities of their car if they do not wish to be pulled off!

Yours truely

JIGGY

http://www.jamesgornall.com

[Denny Trimble]

I'd love to see the data. Maybe you can put it up next to the ring tone section of your website... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Matt Gignac]

From this jiggy character's website:

"James who is studying Business & Management in Oxford whilst pursuing his racing career, was asked by the motorsport division of the department of mechanical engineering if he would drive the Formula Student car, in the European championships held in the UK during 2004."

Might just be the PR style wording, but can you say ringer?

We had a management guy who was doing FRAN-AM, or whatever they were calling it at the time, at McGill who wanted to join the team for pretty much the sole purpose of driving. Luckily, he didn't do any work and he never won during our karting outings so we didn't have any qualms about telling him to f*** off.

Matt Gignac
McGill Racing Team

[JIGGY]

LOL, the bitching begins! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[markocosic]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"James who is studying Business & Management in Oxford whilst pursuing his racing career, was asked by the motorsport division of the department of mechanical engineering if he would drive the Formula Student car, in the European championships held in the UK during 2004."

Might just be the PR style wording, but can you say ringer? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A ringer is only somebody who can't be a legal memeber of the team? Legal member of the team is a current student at college/university, over 18, has a licence?

Brookes has lots of good drivers, but if they're students they're not ringers...

[Denny Trimble]

Yeah, I agree that as long as they're a student, they're not a ringer.

[TG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by markocosic:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"James who is studying Business & Management in Oxford whilst pursuing his racing career, was asked by the motorsport division of the department of mechanical engineering if he would drive the Formula Student car, in the European championships held in the UK during 2004."

Might just be the PR style wording, but can you say ringer? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A ringer is only somebody who can't be a legal memeber of the team? Legal member of the team is a current student at college/university, over 18, has a licence?

Brookes has lots of good drivers, but if they're students they're not ringers... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Damn! I know a guy who used to be a driver for Minardi and the guys down at Bondurant are pretty good! haha, j/k.

Yeah I don't think he is a ringer either. Now I just need to find the girl at ASU who got a seat with a NASCAR team to see if she can drive...

[Big Bird]

Well for all this talk of ringers and ringtones, drivers with their own websites, and newcomers to these forums telling long-standing members they are full of bullshit - lets just remember where this university at the "Centre of the Universe" finished. Fifteenth wasn't it?

So let them "ring" away. Seems all the bluster isn't helping any. Once they start getting results, we can all start worrying about them then http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers all,

[Cement Legs]

Thanks guys... I was looking for some stress relief of the seriousness of building a race car... The comic relief on this thread (intended or not: i find lots of things funny) has really helped me relax, believe it or not http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[BryanH]

We shoudn't be too harsh towards poor little Jim, he's had his arse kicked 3 times in a row in fsae, and pommie sportmen generally are having a bit of a confidence crisis re Aussies at the moment.
btw he's not doing Mech Eng, IS a ringer, but not fast, who cares.

[markocosic]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">btw he's not doing Mech Eng, IS a ringer </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We fully intend to recruit electronic engineers, communications engineers, thermodynamicists, mathematicians, computer scientists, accountatnts, business studies students, girls with legs up to their armpits and team umbrellas, and indeed anybody who can drive and is a student...

We're also looking into collaborative/consortium/joint-venture work with other institutions, to spread both the cost and resources required for the 'mundane' work that benefits both parties. (the tyre testing consortium taken one stage further)

The rules say nothing about Mechanical engineers, and I don't think the intent is to limit the event to us blacksmiths either?

[Craig Dawson]

Pardon me, but is there not a Marketing Presentation event at FSAE? I didnt realise that fell into a Mechanical Engineering degree to the level that is required within this competition.... Im with Marko all the way on this.

Some of you guys really do brighten up my day with your attempts at wind ups and humour. Fortunatly a lot of people do not drop their humour levels so low.

[markocosic]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm with Marko all the way on this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

We have more support within the business development, university spin-out promoters/managers and the manufacturing department than we do within engineering... I think the view on ringers probably depends on whether you view FSAE as a "racing series for student Mechanical Engineers" or a "business skills and personal development programme for students"?

[Buckingham]

One of our 2003 Eundro/Autox drivers was a theatre major (stagecraft). He was the best painting/detailing guy we ever had since he worked in a body shop for about 5 years. He was also better with a wrench than any non-fsae (tsss tsss tssss) ME students.

Just because people choose girly majors doesn't mean we should call them ringers.

[BryanH]

Seems that the little bitch slapping session was due to rule variation btwn England and Aust.
I apoligize to any Brit fsae'er offended.

excerpt taken from rulebook around about Jim's time in karting
"Formula Intercontinental A ( ICA )
(White number plates with black numbers ) One of the two elite classes for drivers aged over 16. A progression of the JICA class. Karts must be FMK-FIA homologated, engines are 100cc reed valves. Engine tuning is allowed , but the carburettor must be of 24mm diameter (a change for 1998). Engines need frequent maintenance and the class is quite expensive as a result. Popularity is patchy at club level, but a competitive class in the British Championships.

Minimum weight ; 145kg . Tyres ; Bridgestone YEQ ( slick ) and YEJ ( wet ) ."

In Aust. Rotor raced formula ICA on open tyres which have vastly higher grip levels than YEQ's
(we used them on Junior Yamaha) I raced the equiv. of Formula A on open tyres for 8 years.

So James was right about Brit ICA, It is impossible to 2 wheel a kart on hard control tyres. Open tyres are are dif. animal entirely, with amazing amounts of side bite. Keeping the kart on 4 wheels becomes a real issue. We learn't more about setup in one season than the previous 5 years. At the Queensland round of the series Rotor was actually pulling 4.5G on one particular corner! Lightning Karts prob still have the Mychron logs.
One of my old race buddies has run a kart shop for ages, has a web site too, Z will love it.
http://www.brk.com.au
sorry, 1 letter missing

[JIGGY]

The tyres used in the British ICA are Bridgestone YGB's which have a relatively stiff sidewall. They are certainly not hard and do have a lot of grip http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Z]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bryan Hester:
At the Queensland round of the series Rotor was actually pulling 4.5G on one particular corner! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bryan,

More details please.

What sort of road conditions? What corner radius and speed, and for how long? Was it a banked corner and calculated horizontal G, or true lateral G relative to road surface? Were inside wheels still on the ground???

Z

[BryanH]

G'day Erik, Back to orig topic, was just pointing out that high grip track conditions expose chassis design/setups and the driver may need to treat the car with a lot more respect in those conditions.

Was in July 2000 so memory a little rusty. 28 deg air temp, sunny high grip track surface fully rubbered up. Several drivers incl Mark suffered bruised ribs in practice. He had to borrow a rib protector to race!
Ipswitch is mostly fast constant rad banked cnrs, some have a lot of banking. Mark may remember actual cnr & if he was lifting wheels on same cnr.
Mychron has built in 2 axis G meter which is zeroed after mounting to kart.
BTW the shape of the G curve into and out of the cnr is V important chassis tuning aid...
cheers

[Tommo]

Bryan,
I agree 100% regarding the pommy confidence v aussies
bring on the ashes

but anyone enrolled at the uni is a legal member and therefore not a ringer

if mark webber enrolled in an arts degree at uwa, i for one would not make him sand bog b4 he got a drive or deny him all together coz he doesn't do mech eng

[Raphaël Rochette]

Ok, so a kart can pull a lot of G's, that's great, but I thought we were talking about FSAE car?

What numbers do people usually see? We are in the 1.5-1.6 G range.

Raphaël Rochette
Laval University
http://www.gmc.ulaval.ca/fsae

[Chris Davin]

The rules allow anyone to drive the car who is a registered student at the university, and who has driven at fewer than six competitions. If Juan Pablo Montoya were taking classes at Cornell, it would be completely legal for the team to have him drive the car at competition. However, the Cornell team has had a tacit polity for at least the recent past that only full-time working team members are allowed to drive the car. We have never recruited specifically for drivers. In fact, a few years before I showed up, the team found out that there was a Formula Atlantic champion (or something) taking some graduate courses there. The team leaders and advisors met with him but both parties decided it would be best to not have him drive, for the following reasons:

-Driving the car is one of the few privelages of being on the team. Giving away a lot of driving time to someone who does little work would be unfair to other team members.
-It would be unfair to other teams.

Cornell has since upheld this policy. In fact, this past year, the other team leaders and I revoked the driving privelages of one of our better drivers, because he was continually not pulling his weight with the car. He immediately quit the team, and probably would have been a competition driver.

The problem, as I see it, is that the gap between the top cars gets smaller every year, because the rules have basically been static for a while. This means that the importance of drivers gets bigger every year. I wish there were some way to take the driver out of the equation, to compare car vs. car, but I have not come up with one. The "ringer" rule helps, but as we have seen, there are a handfull of professional drivers that show up every year. If the organizers wanted to prevent this, the only way to do it would be to set some arbitrary guidelines for what types of drivers would be allowed and what types would be banned, and then require each driver to be approved by the Rules Committee prior to competition - a cumbersome process, to say the least. But, I'm not sure the organizers want to do this. It all depends on one's vision of the "spirit of the competition."

[Wilso]

Here at the University of Texas @ Austin we also use the "no pass, no play" rule. Only dedicated team members get to drive the new car and have a chance at driving at competetion. As captain last year, I did allow more people to drive the older cars in hopes of getting their enthusiasm and interest up.
This goes along with Denny's thread but I don't know many ways of taking driver ability out of the equation besides taking points away from the endurance and giving them to design. But as is, the design judging is very objective, even though the SAE group is taking steps to avoid this.
I kind of like the challenge of trying to compete with the Jordan Mussers and Erci Kohler (sp?). Hey if we finish a well designed car soon enough and get lots of driving, anything is possible.

[Z]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bryan Hester:
Ipswitch is mostly fast constant rad banked cnrs, some have a lot of banking. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahh! Now that makes sense (the world is back to normal). Banking makes a big difference to G's, both car lateral and vertical.

I figure a car with forklift tyres (well, CF=1.0) could pull 4.5G lateral on a 36 degree banking (and driver would also be feeling 4.5G vertical (rel. car)). If Cf=2.0 (overall "CF" for car) then lateral 4.5G can be reached on a 15 degree banking, and if CF=3.0 only need a 6 degree bank.

With regards to the "Cars on two wheels" issue, I guess we need to know what vertical G's Rotor was pulling when he was on 4.5G lateral?

Z

[Underthefloor]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chris Davin:

-Driving the car is one of the few privelages of being on the team. Giving away a lot of driving time to someone who does little work would be unfair to other team members.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen.

[Frank]

Bryan,
He's no more a ringer than Rotor.
Everyone knows that Rotor is at least 3 seconds faster than "normal" FSAE drivers.

Jiggy,
Grow up.


FSAE Rules:

"A ringer is someone that has exceptional skills related to the competition (e.g., driver) who cannot be a legal member of the team but helps the team win points."�

"Team members must be enrolled as degree seeking undergraduate or graduate students in a college or university. Team members who have graduated during the seven (7) month period prior to the competition remain eligible to participate."�

"Team members must be members of at least one of the following societies:
SAE
SAE Australasia
ImechE
"

[Big Bird]

Yo Frank,

I thought you said you were signing off from these forums http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Glad you haven't, it is good to have a fellow geriatric still posting.

Obviously I'm going to have a biased point of view here - but Rotor could in no way be considered a ringer. A fast driver certainly, but he was also one of the key team members in both 2003 and 2004 teams, and designed and built more than his fair share of components. To me a ringer is someone who just shows up for the day, and nothing could be further from the truth in Rotor's case.

The ringer issue is almost impossible to police, unless of course you get someone driving who is not even a student at the uni. But on the other hand, I think the issue self polices to an extent. Teams that try to compete in this comp like mini F1 teams - trying to outdo the rest with the "gunnest" drivers, the hottest engine, the trickest/lightest/stiffest chassis - more often than not end up sobbing into their WeetBix the Monday after the comp. Give me a champion team any day over a team of recruited champions. A good teamwork ethic and sensible expectations seems to win the day more often than not in this comp.

Cheers all,

[Frank]

Caught me Geoff..

yeah i said that.... i was cut up that day about something.. im back

" A good teamwork ethic and sensible expectations seems to win the day more often than not in this comp. "

very much agreed

still, Rotor is too fast... bad Rotor