Teams from India [Archive] - FSAE.com Forums

Nitesh

04-28-2008, 03:29 AM

@ Hiren

While i appreciate your effort for a better information flow between the Indian teams who face quite a similar set of problems which may/may not be different from the problems faced by our amercian/european counterparts, i do strongly feel that this approach defeats one major purpose of our participation in FSAE. This approach would be trying to restrict the information flow and in effect restricting ourselves and working with a closed mindset. This competition is about coming together at a common platform building the car to the best of your abilities(the abilities include your ability to fight the problems that crop up including finances, college authorities etc and not just your technical skills) and competing with some of the best in the world. While having a thread on this forum to facilitate smoother information flow of information and create a better brotherhood amongst teams is good, having a separate forum altogether is going a little overboard.

@others

Please treat this thread as a medium to echange contacts and extend the kind of support you can to the others. For posting queries and doubts please use the forum as the others do. and do read the rules, both for the event and the forum. Search tool is REALLY useful and would help you a lot. Please do note that the forum is for exchanging ideas, mind boggling issues and stuff not easy to find in books but better learnt from experience. This is not a shortcut for reading and doing meaningful calculations/simulations etc. Such an attempt on this thread and/or any other forum would take meaning away from this effort. And remember, each one can make a huge contribution to the meaningful expantion of the forum.

@prithvi

Start by reading books. As far as reading books, there is no end to reading and gaining information. You will get lot of meaningful knowledge about design and fabrication of spaceframes (which you would/should be considering looking at all the constraints) and you can take it from there.

All the best to everyone....

Regards,
Nitesh Bidasaria
FS-UK - 2005-2007
Team Captain 2006,07
Defianz Racing,
DCE

Diablo_niterider

04-28-2008, 04:53 AM

hey nitesh,

your point is quite valid , i did think someone would raise it up, and am glad u did...

first of all am not asking you to cut off from this forum both work parallel...

2. this is completely my point of view but i wouldnt support country specific talk on an international forum as i believe it would cause inconvinience to other forum users

3. i would like to help budding indian fsae teams at a much personal level... basically someone from your own country has gone through the same shit , why not ask him rather than put your question out in front of people who do not have any clue about our situation... if not satisfied than he can definately put it up here to, though i feel the chances are few he wont be... or he can do both simultaneoulsy...

3. importing of parts --

we all have been going to diff events all around the year so why not ask say any team going to a competition 6 months prior to us to get us parts such as tires or anything else... hell i dnt mind buying them at a premium if i can evade the import duty.

4. exchange of parts, books , facilities (i dnt mind exchanging sponsors, we dnt have anyways )-

u have one part u arent using , i need the same one for my car , all i do is put it up on our forum if u were interested we both would profit by this.... shipping in india is cheaper than international shipping.

5. information -

dynos , bike dealers and other part dealers in india all their contact can be put on our forum in a different thread.. so anyone can use it. i wouldnt put it up on an international forum where it would be of little use to anyone else...

6. SELECT A COMMON PLACE(THE KARI)and TIME and we RACE unrestricted
(this is my personal gain thing u can say , would be a pleasure LAPPING U :-)

and all other crazy things we do , u know u cant really brag about doing a burout in an HONDA CITY
i mean these guys wouldnt understand why would u do it on a family sedan they have skylines to do that, but thats what we have and we have fun with that rite??and also the post u put up on off topic about the pulsar 220 add, well only we could appreciate a punny 220 cc in our forum....

and last but not the least we have to accept that the platform we are standing on is a little lower than other international teams...and i believe its just the facilities which used well gives them experience coined with studying books gives them the edge ,thats my understanding, its just a matter of time we bridge this gap...

its your wish guys..........

DNT GET ME WRONG I AM AN WORLD CITIZEN FIRST THEN AN INDIAN

(being diplomatic is bloody difficult)

Regards

PatClarke

04-28-2008, 05:28 AM

Guys, I wish you could get out of your head how difficult things are for Indian teams. It's difficult for EVERY team, that's one of the attractions.

The Students in the West are poor! They don't all drive Skylines and do burnouts! Many of them walk or ride a bike, just like you.

In India they make bicycles, so there is a source of high quality steel tube.
I drew your attention to the new India Enfield engine a while ago.
Someone has developed a management system for that engine.
There is a vibrant automotive industry in India, all of whom must recruit somewhere, so there is a career path, and sponsorship from companies who watch this competition.
There is a huge electronics industry.
There is a huge aerospace industry.
There is a huge software industry.
What more do you want?

Force India has gained motorsport interest in India, so there is more motorsport knowledge than ever before. Go out and farm that interest!

Finally, there is the internet. This is the best source of information on the planet. Resourcing and researching does not mean posting on here 'Kn ne1 snd me a Dsin 4 FSAE cr?

All that does is insult the people on here who have done the research, have spent the hours, have lost grades and even had to repeat, have lost girlfriends and have spent their own money. That's how it works! So stop whining and start working!

Last year Steve Fox and I had a discussion over dinner about how we would enter the competition as a first year team in India. We concluded that we could build a car that would pass all the requirements, would finish all events and would not finish last for $2,000! Yes $2,000! It wouldnt be pretty and there would not be any unoptainium or unavailabillium on it. It would roll on street wheels and tyres....But it would roll!

Then once the team have built their first successful car, they can evolve......Just like every other team in FS, FSAE, FSG, FJSAE, FSAE_A or even Formula 1!

Enough preaching

Good luck in your adventure

Pat

Damped

04-28-2008, 07:29 AM

If there is anyone who can boost morale is no one but Pat Clarke.
THANKS A LOT SIR.
That cycle industry analogy was a master stroke!
My team is also showing signs of FSAE mania !
Sometimes enthusiastic and brimming with confidence and sometimes dejected as our college has still not approved it.

We even worked on a 40 year old dead Chevy engine and brought it back to life, to prove ourselves but lets see what happens.

Lets keep the information(technical and event related) flow going, else the forum will loose its meaning.

Thanks a lot again Sir, for unbridled support and appreciation.

Dreaming to do doughnuts in a Skyline though... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

About the engines..
Why not use two Pulsar 220s ??
one at rear and other at the front and get a four wheel drive with loads of traction ?
Although outrageous but please review and think about it..

Himanshu Gupta
Suspension Design and Dynamics
himanshu.renegade@gmail.com
NITK Racing.
National Institute of Technology, Kurukshetra

Siddharth Mandal

04-28-2008, 08:49 AM

Go with the CBR600f4i/Yamaha600rr for engine dont think of anything else.
If any team needs help in getting down Engines
I am sure any team which has already built a car can help.
The main issue we face is getting spares .(Dealers tell f4i is out of production)
Will apreceate any help on that.
Cheer up guys, Indians build the cheapest Cars and can potentialy score 90s in Cost
Siddharth Mandal
www.ashwaracing.com (http://www.ashwaracing.com)

prithvi

04-28-2008, 10:01 PM

those were some reALLy encouraging words from pat..actually that idea of buildng a car for 2000 dollars is a very inspiring plan for first time participants like us who do not have any guidance from the faculty members of our university..

vreihen

04-29-2008, 06:27 AM

The Students in the West are poor! They don't all drive Skylines and do burnouts!

I can't speak for the rest of North America, but Nissan has never offered the Skyline here in the USA! That is in the process of changing for 2008, but most of the popular "boy racers" in Asia are either non-existent or just started to be imported here in the last year or two.

As for that $2000 FSAE car, I race with a guy who has never spent more than $100 for a race car! He has his share of class championships, driving rubbish street cars that are so wasted where a full tank of gas doubles their value. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Given $2000 and some creative parts sourcing at the nearest junk yard, I am sure that a legal FSAE car can be built.....

Damped

04-29-2008, 09:37 AM

boy ! nissan is will now offer you GTRs rest assured !!
You need a fair amount of optimism and some very efficient engineering to carry on with 2000$ thats it!

Damped

04-29-2008, 09:38 AM

Originally posted by Damped:
boy ! nissan will offer you GTRs rest assured !!
You need a fair amount of optimism and some very efficient engineering to carry on with 2000$ thats it!

vreihen

04-29-2008, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by Damped:
boy ! nissan is will now offer you GTRs rest assured !!

The sidewalks of North America will never be safe again! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
http://www.autospies.com/images/users/kazuya369/Wrecked-Nissan-GT-R/24032008495.jpg
http://www.wreckedexotics.com/skyline/
http://www.wreckedexotics.com/blog/002-Nissan-GTR-crash.shtml
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/07/aw-snap-first-nissan-gt-r-crash/
http://www.autospies.com/news/Wrecked-Nissan-GT-R-27844/
http://www.japanesesportcars.com/galleries/img386.search.htm
http://www.japanesesportcars.com/galleries/img387.search.htm

If you're looking for a cheap source of "like new" auto parts for your project, just follow a Skyline around for a few days..... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

vandit

05-04-2008, 03:46 AM

let us all get back to point....this thread was supposed to be a platform to share knowledge and not discuss day to day to problems.....

as pat said, everyone is poor and works it out the hard way to reach the top.....thats how you learn in racing...there is no shortcut, the only shortcut is to leave this field...

so, lets list down the problems one by one....each one of you who is starting first year or lets say anyone who has any kind of help required, post it here....

people who think they can help these problems or they can provide productive solutions are requested to do so .....

and please stop whinning about curriculum and college not being supportive, earlier there was one team, now there are 4 others who are constantly doing it , it means everyone can do it ....

bring your problems here , but at the same time look for solutions on this forum by using search option....

cheers
vandit
ashwa racing(06,07)

dopa

05-10-2008, 11:52 PM

hi
i wanted to know what material does other Indian
Fsae teams use to make Uprights ...initially i thought of using 7075 T6 Al but this is not available here (chennai).

how about other alloys like Al 6351 , 6061
or make the uprights using mild steel.

Harshit
IITM
chennai

Chittad

05-11-2008, 12:49 AM

Hi guys,

After having started this thread I had made a google group - FSAE teams India.

Membership is open. Join the group. Lets have a little forum for ourselves and spare the others who are not interested.

Here is the link:
http://groups.google.com/group/fsae-teams-india

Chittad

05-11-2008, 01:28 AM

Originally posted by PatClarke:
Last year Steve Fox and I had a discussion over dinner about how we would enter the competition as a first year team in India. We concluded that we could build a car that would pass all the requirements, would finish all events and would not finish last for $2,000! Yes $2,000! It wouldnt be pretty and there would not be any unoptainium or unavailabillium on it. It would roll on street wheels and tyres....But it would roll!

Hi Pat,

I was a bit curious about how you reached that figure. I agree we might have a cost advantage than to others but 2000 dollars is far too less.

Chittad
Raftar@IIT Madras

PatClarke

05-11-2008, 01:51 AM

Chittad,
I have already told you the car wouldn't be pretty but that it would be driveable.
The view is a little hazy through the bottle or two of red we had shared.
I seem to recall a twin tube chassis made from exhaust tubing with enough superstructure to pass the rules (Roll hoops, side impact structure etc), No suspension as such, but the chassis hinged in the middle and sprung with rubber bands made from inner tubes (to pass the 2 inch wheel travel rule). Gokart steering, roadcar wheels and tyres, hubs and brakes etc and an Enfield 500cc single on a carburettor.
The bits would be sourced second hand from wreckers. Everything adapted, nothing made from scratch. Even the restrictor could simply be made from a 20mm gasket.
Bodywork would be simple riveted on sheet metal (from old oil drums?)
I still think $2000 is possible. Of course labour is not factored into the cost =]

Not that it matters, no-one would do it anyway, not when there is expensive carbon fibre, racing wheels and tyres, 12,000rpm engines with bespoke ECUs to be had.

Pat

screwdriver

05-11-2008, 03:08 AM

You obviously were inspired by the Peugeot ad from a few years back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGQf9dn0pDk

I can't see it passing tech without proper suspension though (see rules section 3.2.1).

You certainly wouldn't come in last if you'd build that car. You'd have to be excellent in the boring stuff aka the statics though. If you can make it through the endurance then, I think you could even get into the top half of the field.

How far up you get pretty much depends on how bad the other teams are doing though.

PatClarke

05-11-2008, 03:14 AM

Okay then Screwdriver...Put swing axles on it....won't change much :-)

Should clean their clock in Cost :-)

Pat

vandit

05-11-2008, 07:21 AM

Originally posted by dopa:
i wanted to know what material does other Indian
Fsae teams use to make Uprights ...initially i thought of using 7075 T6 Al but this is not available here (chennai).

how about other alloys like Al 6351 , 6061
or make the uprights using mild stee.

as a first year team we used, mild steel sections to make uprights....we used rectangular sections and according to design machined them and welded.....some team use pipes also to make uprights....

but we switched to aluminium 6351 T6 (as u mentioned) next year ...and the weight was seriously reduced...

7 series is available in bangalore....but it's expensive .

exFSAE

05-11-2008, 07:45 AM

I seem to recall a twin tube chassis made from exhaust tubing

Oh lord.

vandit

05-11-2008, 07:50 AM

my idea of cheap car with all rules cleared and endurance possible to clear...

chassis - MS tubes (available everywhere in india)
engine - as pat said enfield 500
suspension - kinetic (we ran them on our first car)
brakes - front disc brakes of any bike in india(we used TVS victor disc and caliper....but beware dont use master cylinder of these bikes)

steering - manufacture normal rack and pinion, with basic calculation(u should do atleast this much to be called as designing race car)

brake pedal assembly - take some aluminium or MS pieces and weld them for normal ABC ..

air intake - hmmm, do some research on net and u will surely do decent intake....

and i think all above things within 1.5 lakh or not more than 1.75 lakh is possible ...thats like approx $4000.....i know it's more than PAT's estimate, but again it's very comfortable to generate this much amount of money....

the major cost is to transport the car and Team tickets...

PatClarke

05-11-2008, 07:55 AM

ExFSAE,
I never claimed for a second that it would do well in Design :-)
Pat

dopa

05-11-2008, 10:25 AM

thanks shanky for the information....did u machine the 6351 T6 using CNC ...or welded it ...i am a bit confused as i have read somewhere in this forum that people have made uprights by welding 6061 Al or is it that 6061 is available in rectangular tubes which can be welded like that of mild steel....i would appreciate if someone could clarify on this

vandit

05-11-2008, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by dopa:
thanks shanky for the information....did u machine the 6351 T6 using CNC ...or welded it ...i am a bit confused as i have read somewhere in this forum that people have made uprights by welding 6061 Al or is it that 6061 is available in rectangular tubes which can be welded like that of mild steel....i would appreciate if someone could clarify on this

please no aluminium welding for upright, some might not agree but aluminium welding is not that reliable....we took whole big block of 6351 T6 and conventionally machined out everything ...we didnt had access to CNC machining ....but ya CNC is better ....

in bangalore, the 2-3 places which i know, only commercial aluminium is available in sections and pipes(which is like used in office furniture and doors)....otherwise all these graded aluminium u get only in standard slabs or bars or may be solid rods ....but try looking in chennai , u might find it .....just dont stop searching because i said so .....but never in my life i will do aluminium welding atleast on upright....

dopa

05-13-2008, 12:08 AM

thanks shanky for sharing ur experience http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Spearchucker

05-20-2008, 12:48 PM

A bit off topic guys, but anyone know what happened with IIT at the Michigan competition?

Siddharth Mandal

05-22-2008, 12:52 PM

@ Superchucker
http://www.sae.org/images/cds/211313531_FSAE_2008_result.pdf

vandit

05-25-2008, 11:30 PM

@mandal

Mr. Mandal it is very impolite to not to use others name properly....its 'spearchucker' and not 'superchucker'....

geoffrey_khoa

05-29-2008, 11:04 PM

Originally posted by Spearchucker:
A bit off topic guys, but anyone know what happened with IIT at the Michigan competition?

Heard that they could not clear their tech inspection. I think they have some problems with their harness and brake system. Anyway, i'm glad that they had won the Carol Smith books (assuming they do not have the books).

vrtra

05-30-2008, 10:35 AM

ya what did happen to the iit team in michigan

Diablo_niterider

05-31-2008, 07:45 AM

the iit guys have put up a report kind of thing onthe google group u can see it there

stealth

07-03-2008, 06:54 AM

Hello everyone...
Can i know from where we can get the master switches in INDIA which suit the specification of FSAE ?(i saw some pics in rules book)

stealth

07-10-2008, 01:24 AM

Hello everybody.
Anyone willing to sell there ENGINES?

Achal

07-10-2008, 03:42 AM

Hi
I am Achal Ananth,from SVNIT,Surat.
We plan to register for the FSAE-A,2008.
The registration kit asks for the drivers to apply for the CAMS license but the rule book says that a valid license issued by the govt will do.
So do we have to apply for CAMS license at AU$85???

screwdriver

07-10-2008, 03:56 AM

Yes. Local issued by the host override the FSAE rules, where they are in conflict.

vandit

07-10-2008, 04:22 AM

@achal

i think YES , you have toget CAMS license, because you also know how we get license in India.....but you must clarify with authorities organising the australia competition.... they are very helpful.... or trying catching hold of person called 'Pat clark'.... he will have instant answer to all your queries....

vandit

07-10-2008, 04:25 AM

Originally posted by stealth:
Hello everyone...
Can i know from where we can get the master switches in INDIA which suit the specification of FSAE ?(i saw some pics in rules book)

I think you get them everywhere.... if you are not near to any metro cities then ask the teams from Delhi/Bangalore to buy it for you.... atleast in Bangalore you get and since everyone from all over country is now participating then i think everyone gets in their cities.... or best option get it from internet .... i dont think so it costs much and wont have much duty also...

PatClarke

07-10-2008, 04:27 AM

Achel,

Firstly, you must have a valid drivers licence from your country of origin.
Then for the Australian event you must have a competition licence issued by CAMS (Confederation of Australian Motor Sport).
This is because the Aussie event is run under the umbrella of CAMS insurance etc. CAMS is the FIA ASN for Australia.
So, all drivers in the team will need to join a CAMS affiliated club (not a problem, FSAEA is one of them) and then through the club get a competition licence. Visit the website to see the details.

Questions like this should always be directed to the organisers as the International subscribers to FSAE.com are unlikely to understand the local rules at individual events.

Cheers
Pat

Anand

07-10-2008, 07:49 AM

Hi,
I am Anand from India presently studying in Final year Electronics Engineering.I am a member of a Formula Sae team planning to
participate in FSAE Australasia. I read the registration kit and the
rules about members being SAE members in local area.I am not a member
of SAE India right now.The new membership will be valid from August 1
i.e. after the membership date is over. So can u help me in this regard
.I really dont want to miss out this opportunity being in the FSAE
team.

PatClarke

07-10-2008, 11:22 PM

Anand,

Once again, this is something you should take up with SAE-A, not on this forum.

The people on here will help with advice but cannot give you a positive answer to any query relating to a competition. It may be easy to post here, but all you will get is well intentioned opinion.

Go to this site
http://www.sae-a.com.au
and follow the links to make your request

Regards
Pat

Anand

07-11-2008, 12:29 AM

All the links for requests lead to Mr. Pat Clarke "Himself" (fsaetech@ozemail.com.au) which resulted in a failure.

Technical details of permanent failure:
PERM_FAILURE: Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the recipient domain. We recommend contacting the other email provider for further information about the cause of this error. The error that the other server returned was: 501 501 #5.1.1 bad address fsaetech@ozemail.com.au (state 14).

So I guess it is not improper for me to talk to you here where you are available all the time.
Following is the link from where I got the student membership form
http://www.saeindia.org/Images/StudentMembershipApplication.pdf
Do help me out this time.Please.

Regards
Anand

Jorge AgustÃ*n NicolÃ¡s RuÃ*z de Santayana y BorrÃ¡s wrote: "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

PatClarke

07-11-2008, 03:42 AM

Oh Dear Anand,
The SAE office in Australia has just moved to new premises and I guess there are some problems with their website.
In any case, I would lose no sleep over this. You will be a SAE member at the time of the competition and I guess thats what matters most.
So, I would et the matter lie for a week or two and then contact the office again.

Note, I am the technical advisor to teams entering FSAEA (and FSG for that matter) I am not an organiser and in fact I live about 1000 kilometers away from the office.

The 'fsaetech' address is out of date. It was an email address only for technical enquiries two years ago. These days all requests for tech help go directly to the offics. There are other email addresses on the site that will lead you to the organisers.

Cheers
Pat

Achal

07-12-2008, 05:20 AM

Shanky

hey,thanks for the suggestion man.
I am right now in bangalore and it would be really helpful if you could give me details about the place from where i could get my CAMS license in bangalore.
Do gimme ur contact number too.
Looking forward to speaking to you.

PatClarke

07-12-2008, 05:51 AM

Achal,
If you read what I wrote you would see that you cannot get a CAMS licence in Bangalore. You must first be a member of a CAMS affiliated club. You join that when your team pay their FSAE entry fee. Then you will get a form to fill out and the CAMS office in Melbourne will issue you a limited competition licence. You must have that AND a valid road drivers licence in order to compete.
The CAMS licence issue will be addressed by the organisers when you arrive at Werribee, the site of the FSAE-A competition.
You will need to ensure you have an Indian drivers licence before you come to Australia.

Regards
Pat

Achal

07-12-2008, 08:38 AM

@Patclarke
Alright.But what i need to know is that, the check list in the registration kit wants us to fill the CAMS application form but we can't find any CAMS level 2S application form in the registration kit.
So are we just supposed to pay the CAMS license fee($85 per driver) as of now???
or
should we download it ourselves and fill it out and send it along with the registration kit???

PatClarke

07-12-2008, 09:16 AM

Achal,
as I already pointed out, Join CAMS and get a licence when you get to Australia. The FSAE-A people will guide you when you are there.

Regards
Pat

Achal

07-13-2008, 04:33 AM

@Pat

Alright.Thankyou.I get it.

Cheers.
Achal

formula1_dream

07-23-2008, 09:32 AM

Hi friends.

We are also into the this league of formula students,for the very first time .Good to see you working on bringing Indian teams together,it has been a hard time searching for the dealers for parts,i hope we all can share information between us.

Varun,musicogenic.epilepsy@gmail.com,+91-9968804892
Indraprastha university ,delhi

stealth

08-13-2008, 06:26 AM

Hello
We at bangalore wanted to procure the torsen diff.
We wanted to know about the payment details.The torsen website doesnt make this clear.We would really appreciate if you share the steps you followed to procure this component
and how the processing went on.
Thank you in advance.

heavywater

10-11-2008, 11:22 AM

@ shanky
you had specified that you had used a 'kinetic' suspension on your first car ,can you post other details about it

Formula Srijan
BIT Mesra

Hector

10-11-2008, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by stealth:
Hello
We at bangalore wanted to procure the torsen diff.
We wanted to know about the payment details.The torsen website doesnt make this clear.We would really appreciate if you share the steps you followed to procure this component
and how the processing went on.
Thank you in advance.

http://torsen.com/fsae/fsaefaqframes.htm

There's a large link on the left hand side that says "How to ORDER the University Special differential!" which I believe should answer any questions you have.

vreihen

10-12-2008, 06:43 AM

http://torsen.com/fsae/ordering.htm

There is even an e-mail address link on the above page for getting international shipping quotes.....

rupzz

08-14-2009, 08:20 AM

hi...

actually can i know if u guys workin on formula sae india goin to be held this dec ?

plzz reply!!

bdw I am rupali kaur from chennai doing my BE Automobile.

Diablo_niterider

08-15-2009, 12:22 AM

we are interested in selling a torsen diff and an Honda cbr 600 f4i. in mint condition , any indian team interested can come and personally check it out.

Pm me if interested

Mr.Rugged

08-19-2009, 02:38 AM

anyone here speaking regarding the competition held this dec ??

The_Man

08-19-2009, 03:08 AM

Originally posted by Mr.Rugged:
anyone here speaking regarding the competition held this dec ??

http://groups.google.co.in/group/fsae-teams-india

Some discussions about the event here.If you are already not a part of it.

PANTH

08-25-2009, 02:39 PM

see,most of the indian teams are here.
we have to give helping hand to each other by comunicating,solving doubts etc.
but their must be proper medium between us (like orkut suggested by Hiren Patel)insteed of this forum
so,just suggest it .
i will be their.

panth
aerodynamics & body works
the elite racers,rit
panthvb@gmail.com
eliteracers@gmail.com

PANTH

08-25-2009, 09:50 PM

Originally posted by Diablo_niterider:
we are interested in selling a torsen diff and an Honda cbr 600 f4i. in mint condition , any indian team interested can come and personally check it out.

Pm me if interested

great news!
we,the elite racers,are interested in purchasing both of torsen differential and Honda cbr 600 f4i engine.
we are planning to meet you personally as soon as possible.
can you please give me your cell number for further discussion...?
reply soon.

our contacts;
email:eliteracers@gmail.com
anirudh mokashi(team leader):9860038443......call after 6 p.m. don't mind!

JeffreyH

08-25-2009, 10:28 PM

Have you thought about contacting him directly first? Posting your details up on the internet and hoping that someone is going to get in touch with you is not the best idea when it's you who wants the item/wants help/etc.

There's a private message function to these forums, as with 99% of forum/blog software around. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Edit: And I've just noticed that his email address is publically available on this profile.

Just a suggestion.

PANTH

08-26-2009, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by JeffreyJeffrey H:
Have you thought about contacting him directly first? Posting your details up on the internet and hoping that someone is going to get in touch with you is not the best idea when it's you who wants the item/wants help/etc.

There's a private message function to these forums, as with 99% of forum/blog software around. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Edit: And I've just noticed that his email address is publically available on this profile.

Just a suggestion.

thanks Jeffrey, good suggestion!

The_Man

08-28-2009, 09:06 PM

Originally posted by PANTH:
see,most of the Indian teams are here.
we have to give helping hand to each other by communicating,solving doubts etc.
but their must be proper medium between us (like orkut suggested by Hiren Patel)insteed of this forum
so,just suggest it .
i will be their.

Orkut!?
The Google group link I posted is exactly for this reason and also discussions pertaining to Indian events.
Hiren Patel is also there on this group and there are a few discussions going on already.

PatClarke

08-31-2009, 04:49 AM

Originally posted by Mr.Rugged:
anyone here speaking regarding the competition held this dec ??

Are there any judges at your Design Competition with FSAE or FS experience?

Cheers

Pat

The_Man

09-01-2009, 12:29 AM

Originally posted by PatClarke:

Are there any judges at your Design Competition with FSAE or FS experience?

Cheers

Pat

We are not really sure who the Design Judges will be. Since the the event is an SAE India activity, much similar to Baja SAE India happening in Preetampur, India the design judges will probably be from similar sources. There where at Baja SAE India, judges from Mahindra and Mahindra(a reputed auto company is India), Lambardini (the enginge supplier at Baja SAE India), ARAI(Automotive Research Association of India) and a few reputed members of the SAE India community. Also a few from JK Tyres India and Cummins India if I remember correctly.

As far as the FS/FSAE experience goes even is there is someone there will not be too many I assume. No one that I have heard of at least.

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Shashi

09-13-2009, 03:31 AM

I've been to one of Claude's in-house seminar recently. I think he said that SAE India guys had invited him to act as a design judge there. I aint too sure of it, but he definitely gave a hint of it.

PatClarke

09-13-2009, 06:30 AM

Thats good.
You guys need some judges with experience in the Western competitions, otherwise the playing field will never be level.
I spoke at length with Claude in the UK and Germany about what can be done about the standard of the Indian teams and what we can do to raise that standard.

Pat

Shashi

09-13-2009, 09:46 AM

Hello Pat.

You guys need some judges with experience in the Western competitions, otherwise the playing field will never be level.
Cannot be more appropriate. Claude also expressed his intention of conducting a seminar for FSAE teams from India somewhere in January 2010. That will definitely be really helpful!

akhilcv

12-10-2009, 02:23 AM

Hey
this is akhil cv from kerala I am kind of new here. I am a btech mech student from a govt engg college from kerala I have started a racing club in our college but i am stuck with its progress. we would like to participate in fsae but have no clue as in how to start someone help me out if you can please.

Akhil
College of engineering adoor
Kerala
akhilcv@gmail.com
+91-9037883431/+91-9447539753

The_Man

12-10-2009, 03:38 AM

Hi Akhil,

Nice to know you have started a racing club.

I think a good idea for a start is the Baja SAE Asia competition that happens in Indore every year(google for baja sae india). A lot of teams take part here from the south.May be it is a good idea to visit one of them, see their car and what all you might need.

As for Formula SAE there are plans hatching up for a FSAE India. You can get in touch with the organizers. A international competition requires a big budget and also a good idea to get some experience under your cap with a national event. Meanwhile, you can read more of these forums.

akhilcv

12-14-2009, 02:56 AM

thanks mahak thanks for your response but i would request you to suggest what is the initial step to be taken that is from where should i begin.

Akhil
CEA kerala

TMichaels

12-14-2009, 03:03 PM

The initial step is always to read and understand the rules.

Regards,

Tobi

PatClarke

12-15-2009, 02:02 AM

Guys,
What has happened with your Google group? All I see are links to porn sites.

And Indian FSAE wannabes are again posting stupid and graceless questions on the main board.
This not good and is generating a poor feeling for prospective Subcontinental teams.

Meanwhile I have just come home from FSAE-A where I was Senior Design judge. There were two Indian teams entered, one didn't show up and the other one never looked like getting through technical inspection! What is worse is the team didn't seem to to upset by that!

Again, the car was not only poorly designed and didn't meet the rules, but it was dirty, rusty, unpainted and assembled in a slovenly fashion. Why is this? There is no cost to making something clean and tidy, and doing this shows the builders have pride in their work.

There seems to be some BIG cultural issues regarding FSAE and India.

FSAE is not really about motor racing, it is about post qualification training of young engineers, so young tearaways who think it is a shortcut to racing around in a car are mistaken.

All members the successful teams are passionately interested in what they are doing. They enjoy the 'journey' and then savour the 'destination'. It seems the Indian team members want to jump on a supersonic transport (on a discount fare) and become instant 'FSAErs'.

Guys, that is not how it works. It is hard work and slog, and the teams who are most committed emerge as champions after they have served their apprenticeship. That is what it is all about! A learning experience, It is NOT instant gratification and the potential Indian teams must understand this. I think it was Muhammed Ali who said "To be a great boxer you have to like to fight", there is a message there.

When a team (from India or anywhere else) turn up with a sh*tbox car that doesn't meet the rules, sloppy paperwork and a poor attitude, then this reflects poorly on the University as well as the students. I know of at least three failed Indian FSAE/FS entries where the University flatly refused permission for the car to be shown in public. More Universities should do the same!

Why does this situation exist?

I KNOW absolutely that India can educate world class engineers.
I KNOW absolutely that India can turn out quality products.
I KNOW absolutely that the Indian people are a passionately proud people.

So, why are Indian teams continually reducing themselves to the laughing stock of FSAE?

The FS and FSAE community WILL help, but not when some fool writes "Giv me ur dsin & giv me a motr" and expects the FSAE community owe him something. To get credibility, one first has to earn it!

I am looking forward to hearing some intelligent debate on this subject.
Maybe the result will be favourable for those Indian teams who take FSAE seriously.

Pat

The_Man

12-15-2009, 06:28 AM

I know that the FSAE cars Indian teams have produced are not even close to the best in the world. I really think that it is harsh to say that the teams lack passion and come with a "no care" attitude.

Having been a part of the team for 2 years I am sure that each and every member of our team was highly passionate about what we where doing. Yes there where those sleepless nights and sacrifices, I know every team round the world works like this so i am not going to harp on this but I am sure our passion was no different.

The difference I feel, comes in the form of experience. Experience in particular to FSAE but such big projects in general. With every competition our team has entered it has learn more. More about FSAE, more about engineering, more about life. Yes, it can be right to say that we have taken more from the FSAE community than we have given, but then I think that is the real point of this competition in the few initial years of participation.

As for the some annoying posts by Indian teams on this forum, I agree they are not in the right sprit and are times annoying in their 'basicness' of the questions. I make it a point to PM every one of them my contact and I do make an effort to help out, and avoid such posts in the future but they still do happen. Its not that these people are lazy or feel the FSAE community owes them something. The rudeness is most of the time unintentional and a lot of them have every little experience posting on forums such as this and hence the lack of use of the find buttons, reading of pinned threads and the sometimes shabby writing style. To be honest I am right now making a conscious effort not to rite lik dis, but I am happy to says I am slowly loosing the habit. But I urge the community not to slam these people down with sarcastic comments. Just don't reply, if you thing it is wasting your time.

For example, when I started out with FSAE it was the first year out team was planning to participate. All we had to go by was a rule book and a handful of pictures of FSAE cars that came from google image search and this forum of course, never having the chance of having seen a FSAE car before, this is true for most Indian teams when they start out. I was made in charge of designing the upright. Material research: I came here hit the find button for upright this is where I get to:
http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/t...10381141#21710381141 (http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/125607348/m/69410471141?r=21710381141#21710381141)
I am ashamed to say I spent a week on trying to figure out how to use rich mahogany for upright material. But it was a lesson learnt, the hard way. This really led to a situation where team members would be super scared of posting on the forum, even genuine comments or problems.

I know I have too sometimes gotten frustrated of stupid questions and put up rude replies, I am sorry for that.

As for Indian teams that bring their cars to competition, yes it is a struggle to get the car there but the struggle doesn't end when you get to a competition. I agree with the fact that FSAE is about the journey rather than the destination which certain people might fail to realise, but from experience I have known that the people who do not enjoy the tools and the hard work do not stick around the team for too long. I know it can be frustrating for organisers to know that a shabby Indian team has made its way to the competition when a mush better team could have taken its place. However, I look at it as a platform for exposure for the Indian teams. We where at Michigan in 2008 and we did not do any dynamics, we where a shabby car and very heavy. But that one experience has changed all of us in the team. We spoke to each and every team there, some FSAErs there I am still pen friends with till date. All of them where helpful we where opened to a whole new world of ideas, opportunities and ideologies. And any one in my team will tell you that this was key in our great performance in the Baja SAE Indian event, was the fact that we where at Michigan and we saw what we saw and we knew where we had gone wrong. I dedicate 80% of our victory in the events that we won to what we learned from our experience in Michigan. What more, other teams at the Indian event saw our car and now they are going to be better and faster this coming year. The international exposure to at least a few of the teams is really important.

Cultural difference is also another factor. Where I study not everybody studying engineering wants to engineer. Infact most of us on the team including me have not chosen Mechanical engineering by choice(Ironical as it may be) Though now I am sure I'd be miserable elsewhere, and I know this thanks to FSAE. I've been privileged enough to visit a few overseas teams in America as well as Britain and spend some time with them. I realise that things are quite the same when it comes to passion and dedication but there are a lot of differences still where evident. Differences in terms of way students think and way to go about planning and implementation. After our Michigan experience were convinced we spent too much time manufacturing rather than spend it on designing. All the teams went manufaturing should be 2 months max. We tried that in our second car and it was not a good idea. mainly because the situation in Indian is quite different from the places else where. Components and manufacturers are not really a phone call, email or even a single visit away. Things will go wrong parts will not arrive on time and market research is a bitch. More time is needed for this. My point being, Indian teams sometimes get off track by discussions on the forum. Somethings that are easy elsewhere are not so easy in India. There are a lot of things that you are much better off in India also. Its important to take advantage of these things. For example, bike(pulsar 220) callipers, they are good quality callipers for 6$ each! (I don't mind the 200gms extra weight; I am on a tight budget)

Having said all this there is still no justification for untidy cars, its a trick Indian teams including us have missed I guess. Tidy car makes it more pleasureable for all us, the judges and the inspectors. I'm sure from all future cars from our team the simplicity and neatness will be a design goal.

To Indian teams:
So lets try hard so that Mr.Clarke won't have to make such comments in the future about us. We should have more interaction amongst ourselves and more co-operation. We are not competitors. We all have a point to prove out there. Lets help out the newer teams that are emerging and interact more often amongst ourselves. We'll see each other more often I hope that the FSAE India competitions I really think these local competition will help newer teams and also help raise standards. It is very important to share our international experiences and discuss our mistakes in detail rather than hide them. Lets use this forum and our Indian teams forum better for the good of all. Within our team we had a rule that only the team captain can post on this forum, so that questions before the go onto this forum are moderated. This has worked well in our team newbees to not be victim over here.

Bare with us Indian teams for a little while we are quick learners and I am sure soon we'll be up there.

Pradeep

12-17-2009, 12:42 PM

Here is what we are doing to make a better car:

1.Project Management(Planning & Organization)

Team Structure:First decide a team structure that suits you (You cannot have separate senior team and junior team).Our team is divided into 5 subteams-Structure , Vehicle Dynamics , Powertrain and Electronics and Management.There is one person responsible for each sub-team. A Team Manager heads the management team that handles all finances,media,PR,our monthly newsletter(do subscribe for it on our website) and university liaison .A Technical Head co-ordinates between the 4 technical subteams and makes sure that the design goals are being (strictly) met at all stages.We also have a Team Leader who gets to have lots of coffee and relax in the workshop while pretending to be busy.

Recruitment & Firing :We first held an introductory talk for all interested students of the university,telling them about the our previous cars- FM08,FM09, and what we plan to do in 2010.Even after warning them that their social life would deteriorate we still got about 120 applicants(only one girl http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif ).Applications forms were first reviewed by the 10 continuing members of 2009 and each candidate was interviewed (Yes all 120 of them !).30 students were chosen and given a task for 2 weeks,depending upon how well they performed the final selection was made.Our current team strength is 29.

Now, we still do not have a set protocol for firing of team members but Im thinking of introducing one especially after having to take a few tough decisions in the past weeks.(everyone hates the boss http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

Team meetings & Picnics: Effective communication between subteams is essential.We have team meetings every week where each subteam submits a report of the completed tasks.
We have team picnics on the beach where we get a chance to drown some of the team members we dont like in the rough Arabian sea.

There is a lot more I want to say about our design timeline,workshop,problems we are currently facing,how we dont use pirated software etc etc..but I think I'll keep posting intermittently so that each point in highlighted.

I would appreciate comments from experienced member of the forum if we should do something in a different/better way.

And I know we all say that we should not forget to have fun in FSAE (I did enjoy writing this post,and I know you laughed a little while reading it), but its not always possible when its a question on my country's pride.Its a tough challenge and we have accepted it in good faith.
I believe we can deliver.
Jai Hind

Mikey Antonakakis

12-17-2009, 01:14 PM

Excellent posts Pradeep and Mahek.

Pradeep, it sounds like your team has worked out a good team structure, and you have more interest in your club than we do in ours if you have to interview people. Stick to your plan and I think you'll be quite successful. Just make sure you get your car built far enough ahead of time to test it! You lose a lot of fun of FSAE when you don't sleep the two months prior to, and including competition. If you can keep to your plan as a team though, I think you guys will be fine, and I wish you the best of luck!

Bemo

12-18-2009, 02:06 AM

I also have to say that you seem to be on a good way Pradeep.

As already mentioned by others never forget the fun factor. Team members should come to the shop because they like working there, not because they are frightened to get kicked out of the team. That's the hardest thing about organisation I think and there isn't the one solution which will work for everybody.

To the point about recruitment and firing I'd like to say that you can be really glad about the big interest in your project by students. We usually don't have a lot of applications after we told people how much work it is.
Be careful about the firing thing. Very often new team members need some time to get along with everything. The experienced members must have some patience with the newbies, otherwise they will lose motivation quickly and don't do their work properly.

In general it's up to you to show wether Pat is right or wrong when he's complaining about the attitude of Indian teams.
The problem is that in the meantime quite a lot of Indian teams showed up at several competitions and usually they don't even get through scrutineering. A lot of people are willing to give advice and help, but don't be surprised they will get disappointed if they have the feeling that the next year all the mistakes are made again. They will start to see it as a waste of time to discuss design issues with such a team.

Perhabs it would help to write down the general information people give you at competitions and additionally take lots of photos of other cars. Like that less information gets lost when people leave the team because they can give these documents to them.
You can collect a lot of information and experience during a competition and the worst thing you can do if you don't make that information useable for your team.

RollingCamel

12-18-2009, 05:19 AM

Well, things are quite similar here. I know only 2 teams made an FSAE car in Egypt. Anyway, our team is formed 100% of senior students as their graduation project.

I came up with the idea last year and readied ourselves since then. I chose some members and recruited others through posters. We were 22 at start but we were reduced to 16 due to personal reasons for some and 2 was fired. We organized ourselves early on and agreed on certain rules to avoid problems later on.

Our main problems is as following:

1. Some of the team members lack self-confidence and don't realize their full potential. As a team captain, i keep trying to build up their confidence but without believing in themselves no power in the world could help them.

2. Some still thinks that designing a car is merely mashing up parts together to create a Frankenstein and this is what put me down mostly. Due to the undeveloped nature of Egypt most of the mechanical engineers end up technicians. Engineering is about designing and creating not just merely maintenance. Furthermore, FSAE is all about the journey to create the car not just the end result.

3. Many of the members are not very good in using software especially 3d-Modeling which is a major problem. While in summer i made a free course for them in my house then another in the college, open one too. Yet only one of the members did really apply what he learned and continued learning through the tutorials.

4. Many don't really understand what is motorsports and what makes a race car different from road cars. The brake team leader asked me a couple of days before "Why don't we use a Maruti's braking system?". Whenever i remember this question it kills my spirit, what was all my talk about power/weight ratio and the difference between race and road car design conditions and goals. Where did all these months reading and readying went? My answer for him is to try and post this question here and see what kind of answers he'd get.

5.While we are trying to compete internationally, the university doesn't seem to step up to standard. We have met our dean and introduced to him ourselves and the project. Our rotten internal combustion engines lab has seven rusty Hoffman dynamometers since the 60's and we got them several offers from Froude-Hoffman and Land & Sea, which is way cheaper than anything in Egypt. They are not willing to do anything to support the team although a dynamometer will be useful to the all the university.

6. Industry support to university R&D is non-existent in Egypt. Most of the project is supported by us which is a problem. We try our best to introduce ourselves but we still didn't get any result. Most companies financial year starts at January...

7. Tariffs!!! Many parts we need is from outside Egypt. The engine which should cost $800 + $550 with shipping from USA ended up $1750 with tariffs and taxes. Even that it entered as a university property although we paid everything from our pockets.

Mike Cook

12-18-2009, 05:20 AM

It seems to me like it would be a good idea for the Indian teams to post pictures of their cars as they designing/building so they can kinda be audited for any potential rules violations. This would probably help more of them pass tech.

Mike

RacingManiac

12-18-2009, 06:15 AM

It is important to have thick skin to continuously harassing the official about your design question....Every year in the US comp they mention how many questions were sent from some well established team about rule and design. Thats a good indication that even when you have experience in one of these things you still need plenty of guidance to avoid failing tech for some minor detail at comp. And this should be more important to someone who has never been to a comp. Send your paper sketch of your idea, send your CAD, send your photo...sure you may feel that this may be a hassle to the judges, but it'll be a lot worse than showing up with a cobbled together car that is done way-off the rule after flying tens of thousands of mile to comp with your team....

Bazanaius

12-18-2009, 08:41 AM

RollingCamel (great name btw),

If you can afford it, and it fits in with your schedule, I would try and get some people to attend a competition as visitors. FSAE is great because you get to see up close other cars, how the teams work and ask them questions (I know of very few racing series in which you are allowed to do this, and even fewer where 99% of the people will actively stop what they're doing to talk to you!)

This means that you don't have to have a car to get a great feeling for what the competition involves, what a good car (and the odd bad car) looks like, and also meet some interesting people who can help alot.

I went to FSG in its first year with the guys who were setting up our team just to scout out what it was all about - it completely changed my view on what it was, what we were doing and what it would involve. My enthusiasm was increased significantly by that weekend (17 hours a day talking about cars, 3 hours a day drinking and the odd hour sleeping = pretty much ideal.)

if you can't get to FSAE or FS, anything will do - go to a nearby race track, go karting with each other, whatever; anything where you can get close to the cars is important. You want them to see first hand what racing cars look like, and what people who build racing cars do :-)

PS. from experience it seems the one thing the Indian guys are not lacking is enthusiasm :-)

The_Man

12-18-2009, 12:18 PM

@ RollingCamel(+1 for the brilliant name)

Sounds like similar problem to the ones we have had at some point of time.Glad to know there are Maruties elsewhere in the world. We also had that thought at some point of time.

A good way to understand FSAE specially when you are new and far away from other FSAE teams is pictures. It is very enlightening(and a lot of fun) to just pick one FSAE car a day, any car for which you have a lot of pictures from a lot of angles and sit with the team reverse engineering it. Figuring out why it is designed in a particular manner and more importantly why not the way you feel it should be done. If you are confused some teams even respond to e-mails you send them asking why they did something. Thanks guys, you know who you are.

t21jj

12-18-2009, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by The_Man:
We where at Michigan in 2008 and we did not do any dynamics, we where a shabby car and very heavy. But that one experience has changed all of us in the team. We spoke to each and every team there,

I think we may have actually spoken in Michigan. I remember your team stopping buy our pit. You all seemed to be heading in the right direction.

Originally posted by The_Man:
@ RollingCamel(+1 for the brilliant name)

Sounds like similar problem to the ones we have had at some point of time.Glad to know there are Maruties elsewhere in the world. We also had that thought at some point of time.

A good way to understand FSAE specially when you are new and far away from other FSAE teams is pictures. It is very enlightening(and a lot of fun) to just pick one FSAE car a day, any car for which you have a lot of pictures from a lot of angles and sit with the team reverse engineering it. Figuring out why it is designed in a particular manner and more importantly why not the way you feel it should be done. If you are confused some teams even respond to e-mails you send them asking why they did something. Thanks guys, you know who you are.

+1 on the photos I've done this myself. Many teams have extensive photo galleries on their team web sites, we've got about 8 years worth of photos posted on ours. You can learn a lot by doing this if you can't get to a competition.

Adambomb

12-18-2009, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by RacingManiac:
It is important to have thick skin to continuously harassing the official about your design question....Every year in the US comp they mention how many questions were sent from some well established team about rule and design. Thats a good indication that even when you have experience in one of these things you still need plenty of guidance to avoid failing tech for some minor detail at comp. And this should be more important to someone who has never been to a comp. Send your paper sketch of your idea, send your CAD, send your photo...sure you may feel that this may be a hassle to the judges, but it'll be a lot worse than showing up with a cobbled together car that is done way-off the rule after flying tens of thousands of mile to comp with your team....

+1

Even though the rules are pretty clearly written in general, we still end up with about a half dozen questions a year that get sent to the rules committee. This is why some people may get some rude responses on this forum about rules questions. Especially if it's not one of those "gray areas." If it's something that isn't clearly spelled out in the rules, check the FAQ section on the official forum on the official SAE website. If you still haven't found your answer, email the rules committee. [/rant]

+1 on going to competition even if you don't plan on racing. That means SO MUCH to people in terms of seeing what it really is all about, the level of competition, how fast the cars really go, etc. Never mind the fact that you can get hundreds of spy pictures (thus preventing questions such as "plz tell me the configuration of the brake pedal"), and also talk to lots of people who have been doing it for years. Barring that, as t21jj has mentioned, lot of teams' websites have a lot of pics up already...

No doubt about it though, I will admit that it is an uphill battle for teams in India, or Egypt from the sounds of it. Actually, it's an uphill battle for any team that hasn't developed the capability to build and compete year after year, now multiply that by the stories of parts availability, lack of racing experience, lack of mechanical experience, never mind the fact that there are an awful lot of countries out there where people don't grow up surrounded by cars like in the US.

Slowly but surely though, they're getting there...I promise to mind my P's and Q's a bit more closely http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Mr.Rugged

12-19-2009, 07:02 AM

Hey Shashi he went to anna university to judge the design challenge.

Shashi

12-20-2009, 05:24 AM

Heres a post after a long long time.

Pradeep, good to see you here.

One thing that I noticed that the points that were made in the above posts are all necessary to have a team build a car that is a contender to be the best piece of engineering Technical at the competition and it is amazing there is not a single word that can be classified as technical in it. This just goes to show that along with having a team that is technically good, a good management is also what is required.

I would agree both with Pat and Mahek here. Recently, I was at FSAE India. The event had a Design Presentation and a Vehicle Inspection. IMO, it could have been better, but atleast its a start. Out of 28 teams that participated, 11 got their cars. I will not comment on the way the cars were designed since the competition was just 4 months after the registration. But I would definitely say that I saw the same stuff on those cars as the ones on our first year car. It all comes down to experience and how much are you willing to push the envelope.

About cleanliness and the presentation of the car, again it is something that we learnt the hard way after Claude kicked our ass at Germany for 2 consecutive years. It is something he mentions to me whenever we happen to meet, the latest at FSAE India, where he was the Chief Judge. It was something that he mentioned at the post competition review also. There are a lot of fronts that Indian teams need to work on and I think that established teams like IIT Bombay and Orion Racing, Mumbai have a major role to play here.

As for the team structure, we've modified ours this year because of certain reasons. We do not have a Team Manager or Team Captain.

We have 3 co-ordinators taking charge of Technical, Non-technical and Administrative. The non-technical co-ordinator takes care of Logistics, Marketing and Publicity. The Administrative Head takes care of all the paperwork there is to be done. The Technical co-ordinator makes sure that the designs are being done with timelines in mind.

In case work is not being done at any front, it is upto 6-7 experienced guys to get the work done. Not fool proof, I know, but this change feels good. We also have juniors working along with us. They're good to have around when you need sometime to run around the place to get manufacturing done. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif This year, a big agenda on the senior guys list is design/knowledge transfer and carrying forward your designs from one year to the next.

RollingCamel

12-21-2009, 09:57 AM

never mind the fact that there are an awful lot of countries out there where people don't grow up surrounded by cars like in the US.

Ehm....we live surrounded by cars....crappy cars.

Ok, how about starting a thread called "Newbees' Thread" were they could post their (our) work so it could be checked for compliance with the rules ..... and logic.

Mikey Antonakakis

12-21-2009, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by RollingCamel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">never mind the fact that there are an awful lot of countries out there where people don't grow up surrounded by cars like in the US.

Ehm....we live surrounded by cars....crappy cars.

Ok, how about starting a thread called "Newbees' Thread" were they could post their (our) work so it could be checked for compliance with the rules ..... and logic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think as long as anyone who posts there is respectful and has demonstrated initiative in doing a substantial amount of their own research, the forums will be quite helpful.

Shashi

12-21-2009, 06:56 PM

I think as long as anyone who posts there is respectful and has demonstrated initiative in doing a substantial amount of their own research, the forums will be quite helpful.

Chief Engineer
Engine Head
Columbia University FSAE

+1

t21jj

12-21-2009, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by Mikey Antonakakis:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RollingCamel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">never mind the fact that there are an awful lot of countries out there where people don't grow up surrounded by cars like in the US.

Ehm....we live surrounded by cars....crappy cars.

Ok, how about starting a thread called "Newbees' Thread" were they could post their (our) work so it could be checked for compliance with the rules ..... and logic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think as long as anyone who posts there is respectful and has demonstrated initiative in doing a substantial amount of their own research, the forums will be quite helpful. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
+1
And as long as they don't demand anybody on the forums give them anything.

PatClarke

01-24-2010, 05:11 AM

Bump

Pradeep

01-29-2010, 06:42 AM

If your University does not support you, show them this :
http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Repository/getimage.dll?path=TOIM/2010/01/25/46/Img/Ad0460501.png

When we made a presentation to the University officials at the start of the season we told them how having a good FSAE team could help attract prospective engg students , they bought it and how...

Plus having a picture of the car in newspapers across the country, does make the sponsors real happy.

It is upto YOU to convince your University that an FSAE program will be beneficial for the them also.I hope this helps.

@Bemo:Thanks for all the help at FS UK , I never really got a chance to say thank you to you guys after the party.

@Mikey Antonakakis:Thank you for the help with WAVE, our engine model is running pretty well now.

t21jj

02-04-2010, 03:44 AM

Bump for recent post.

Mikey Antonakakis

02-04-2010, 08:24 AM

You're very welcome Pradeep, let me know if there is anything else I can help with. I should have WAVE back up and running today. Best of luck this year!

srinivasfsae

02-17-2010, 06:46 AM

Hi ,I am Srinivas from VNR VJIET, Hyderabad. We are planning to build a tubular space frame using 4130 Chromoly.

The doubt is the kind of welding to be used. I have read Mr.Carrol Smith book, in which he says we can weld 4130 chromoly with Acetylene gas welding using a carburizing flame. But recently I read Mr. Pat Clarkes' document on tubular space frame in the formula student Germany website where he suggests that we either TIG weld it or Nickel Bronze welding (brazing).

Gas torch will get enough of the surrounding metal hot that it will cool slower and be less brittle. TIG welding will cause a much faster cooling rate and make the metal more brittle.

Can somebody help me get some more clarity on this.

Adambomb

02-17-2010, 09:36 AM

This is true. Generally if you use 4130 you will want to heat treat it. If you don't, it won't be much stronger than a much cheaper steel, like 1020, and hence be a big waste of money. IMHO for this application, 4130 is not the best material. If the thing is triangulated well enough you don't need the extra strength.

The_Man

02-17-2010, 10:33 AM

Just a word of warning to the FSAE teams from India building space frames. Be very careful with the steel tube dealers. In Mumbai we have had a lot of problems with them.

The thing is firstly they are very difficult to find and are in the dirtiest corners of the remotest Industrial estates. Once you get there they are going to try and sell to you all the scrap they have lying around.

We have always used the dimensions of tubing as specified by the rules not thicker or thinner to avoid complications at the tech inspection. However they dealers will try to make you buy the ones they have or the ones they want to sell. Carry your own vernier. Check every tube you have bought. I say this because just last year a fellow tried to sell to me a 1.5mm thick steel tube as 1.6mm saying "chalta hai, mera garentee hai nahi tuutega". When I refused he said "Ok I have one in my warehouse" he came back after 10 mins with a pipe and showed us the 1.6mm thickness on his vernier. We happily bought it thinking that we outsmarted him and made him sell to us a tube he did not want to sell. But to our horror at Silverstone our bracings where 1.5mm thick. We spent a crucial day at competition trying to fix this. I know we should have double checked but these things do happen. The dealer had changed the zero error on his vernier and sold to us a 1.5mm tubing.

Another problem we had with an other vendor is when he tried to sell us some other steel alloy when we asked for 4130 chrome alloy and also backed it up with material certificates that where for not that tubing. They think the college kids do not understand anything and they'll never realise. So if you are using 4130 please be 100% sure about your dealer.

Another thing I personally suggest is that if it is your first attempt at a FSAE car then its a good idea to go with regular steel. You will spend less time looking for material and more time using it. Also, your first car will cause you to change designs mid way, that way you might need more material later and moreover will have to go welding multiple times. Remember you will have to heat treat after every weld. Its not worth the slight weight advantage that you gain.

Sorry about the slight derailment http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Cheers,

Shashi

02-18-2010, 01:48 AM

And as far as I remember last, 4130 is much more expensive than AISI 1020 / AISI 1018.

HoggyN

02-18-2010, 03:06 AM

I say this because just last year a fellow tried to sell to me a 1.5mm thick steel tube as 1.6mm saying "chalta hai, mera garentee hai nahi tuutega". When I refused he said "Ok I have one in my warehouse" he came back after 10 mins with a pipe and showed us the 1.6mm thickness on his vernier. We happily bought it thinking that we outsmarted him and made him sell to us a tube he did not want to sell. But to our horror at Silverstone our bracings where 1.5mm thick. We spent a crucial day at competition trying to fix this. I know we should have double checked but these things do happen. The dealer had changed the zero error on his vernier and sold to us a 1.5mm tubing.

If it makes you feel any better, this is not just a problem in India. We had the same problem with a UK supplier. Now we check every piece that comes in and don't rely on what it says on the delivery chit.

anky_greasemonkey

02-18-2010, 07:25 AM

Juz in case some needs help on the tubings thing, i guess i know some1 frm pune whos a mnufacturer and is a reliable source to get 1018 tubings.

He's been our source for both Fsae and baja vehicle needs.

srinivasfsae

02-18-2010, 08:45 AM

Dear anky

can u please give the contact of the Aisi 1018 guy in pune and also ur contact

anky_greasemonkey

02-18-2010, 10:13 AM

e r u the srinivas frm pune?

Adambomb

02-18-2010, 10:57 AM

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a4/kmterrill/Omgwtfbbq.jpg

PatClarke

02-18-2010, 08:46 PM

Wow,the jungle drums are back!!

Bngn lik b4

Pat

t21jj

02-18-2010, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by anky_greasemonkey:
e r u the srinivas frm pune?

Dear god what does that even say? This is an English language forum you could at least try to use proper language.

Killer

02-20-2010, 06:50 AM

Hello people, is it true that FSAE India 2011 has been changed to a virtual event and that we wont be having an endurance race? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

and why don't we have a separate website for FSAE India and why are the dates of registration not put up?

exFSAE

02-20-2010, 08:36 AM

itz clr 4u2c dat 4130 iz rly gud 4 fsae bc u got so mny dif size dia n wall.

Killer

02-20-2010, 09:19 PM

I guess we need to stop posting sarcastic replies .
It's a waste of time for both the reader and the one who wrote it.
If these kind of "smsese" posts have to be stopped,then something has to be done at the fundamental level,when registering.

~~Ignorance is the best punishment~~

Rex

02-21-2010, 07:29 AM

If there are filters for posting URL's, could there be filters for any post using " u " or " r " or " rly "?

Or the sarcastic replies could continue. I've got to say, I really enjoy the sarcastic replies.

RollingCamel

02-21-2010, 03:55 PM

Perfect "Engrish"

Quite NSFW.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...gw8c&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYtoVMkgw8c&feature=related)

Turam

02-25-2010, 11:21 PM

Hello everyone,

FSAE India 2011 is confirmed. But it has been delayed by 5 months more and now it would be held in the first week of July 2011( 1,2 & 3rd July 2001). The event is delayed to give maximum chance to new teams from India to develop a good fsae car. Many workshops are to be conducted along the way too. [LIST] <LI> The First Workshop is by Mr. Claude Rouelle in March( A very experienced and importnat judge for FSAE india 2011). for more information log on to http://www.claudeseminar.weebly.com/
<LI> FSAE India website is under construction since January.... and nobody knows when it would be put up!... So temporarily all the information is available at FSAE INDIA 2011 facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=286092748756&ref=ts)
<LI> Since FSAE India will be held for the first time, hence the Endurance event will only be confirmed after The first driver's test in July and Car design Inspections in October( similar to the procedure when the first BAJA SAE India was organised in 2007). So Guys we really need to impress the judges ( especially Mr. Claude) by presenting a SAFE and FSAE rules compliant design by October, otherwise they won't allow the endurance event!!!
<LI> Some more details of the event
Registration Starts from 17th march 2010 and ends on 15th April 2010. Registration fees are Rs. 50,000/- preliminary Registration fees is 10,000 which should be paid on or before 15th April 2010. From 1st july to 31st july there will be a training of driver. 3 drivers from each team must undergo the training. After passing the driver’s test team should pay 25,000. In October Scrutiny will be conducted similar to Baja, n judges will decide if endurance will take place or not
<LI> For more information contact

Mr. Yogesh Nagendiran
Vice chairman( SS), SEC, SAEINDIA & Organizer Formula SAEINDIA
Email-Yogeshbe@yahoo.com
[ Do disturb him, he's our official representative ]

So best of Luck Everyone. And Lets make a good effort for FSAE INDIA 2011 and show the 'experienced world' that we don't need to be treated as "teams from India".

- Turam

vandit

04-21-2010, 01:51 AM

Originally posted by The_Man:

I say this because just last year a fellow tried to sell to me a 1.5mm thick steel tube as 1.6mm saying "chalta hai, mera garentee hai nahi tuutega". When I refused he said "Ok I have one in my warehouse" he came back after 10 mins with a pipe and showed us the 1.6mm thickness on his vernier.

Another thing I personally suggest is that if it is your first attempt at a FSAE car then its a good idea to go with regular steel. You will spend less time looking for material and more time using it. Also, your first car will cause you to change designs mid way, that way you might need more material later and moreover will have to go welding multiple times. Remember you will have to heat treat after every weld. Its not worth the slight weight advantage that you gain.

not exactly same experience , but sure couple of similar experience in bangalore too. I would suggest you to go for a dealer recommended by some industry/manufacturing place to you and YES, carry your own Vernier.

Regular steel please, atleast for initial couple of years ...

Adambomb

04-21-2010, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by vandit:
Regular steel please, atleast for initial couple of years ...

We're using mild steel on our 16th car...

vandit

04-29-2010, 03:08 AM

Anybody willing to share--

Q.1 how much does your team has to shell out to take the car out of country ?
(For us, if we airlift both ways then it easily touches 2-3 lacs, may be more depends upon the 'rishwat' to agent)

Q.2 Who all ship their cars ? Anybody had bad experiences in shipping or customs ? How much do you save by shipping ?
(In 2009, we shipped our car from Competition (FSAE Italy) to home, it took 1 month or more to get it back and the car was badly rusted. The corrosion can definitely be avoided with good packing. No major issues at port.)

Q.3 What kind of box do you use to transport your car?. Does anyone have Metal box ? How much does it costs for you to make a box?
(So far we have been using Custom made wood box with all the required disinfection treatment and certification but it does cost something every year to us and it does not last more than one competition.)

Q.4 Do you guys have to transport dissassembled car or they allow you to put complete car inside ? (Of course, the wheels are meant to be off). Do you have to put your engine in another separate box or they allow you to have it on your car ?

Q.5 When you open your box at event, do you find it in similar way as you packed it or is it easily visible that the box lid was taken off and the stuff was examined in a bad manner? (We have had mixed experiences and i understand that sniffer dogs have to spend lot of time in box to check for stuff but i am wondering does your body work also gets damaged sometimes ?)

Aahnik

05-06-2010, 06:26 AM

The rumour's on that the administrators might provide the supra sae teams with engines. any idea as to how true this statement is?

Mehul Botadra

05-12-2010, 11:03 AM

Dont rely on them. Have a backup always. If they provide engines, you have 1 spare to test and blow up! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Anupam Kulkarni

08-18-2010, 10:05 AM

Indeed. The organisers are providing the engine and tires. Hah. 800 cc, 26 kw. Street tires. 155/70 R13s.
Thank God its called Suprasae India. FSAE India would be a bit of a let down.

Pradeep

08-21-2010, 03:14 AM

@vandit:

1. We have airlifted the car for the last 2 years. In 2009 to UK cost us approx Rs 3 lacs and this year to Austria cost us Rs 7 lakhs.

2. In 2008, our car was brought back by ship, it took 2 months and the next team did not get enough time to learn from the previous car.

3. We made 2 wooden boxes. One for the car and one for the tool box, tents, tires, spare engine etc. Here are some pics : h t t p://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=13953761&fbid=10150256777610593&op=1&o=global&view=global&subj=39294297760&id=685140592

h t t p://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=39294297760&v=photos&ref=ts#!/photo.php?pid=13840184&fbid=10150252947955593&op=1&o=global&view=global&subj=39294297760&id=685140592

4. Car is transported completely assembled but make sure all the fluids are drained and no air in the tires.

Mehul Botadra

08-29-2010, 11:58 AM

http://fsae.com/eve/forums?a=t...=128103525#128103525 (http://fsae.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=763607348&f=412600868&m=128103525&r=128103525#128103525)

Mehul Botadra

08-29-2010, 11:58 AM

Torsen Diff -

Its a three year old Zexel Torsen Limited Slip differential. We're planning to give away the differential housing with half axles and sprocket adapter. We're looking at something around Rs. 20,000/-

Ohlins Dampers -

Shocks used are Ohlins ST 44 with the follow parameters:
1. Type Single piston double acting-oil filled Oil filled – gas reservoir
2. Length eye to eye(mm) 209 mm to 279 mm
3. Adjustability Rebound and compression

Accordingly, with a motion ratio of 0.74, the maximum shock shaft travel would be 56.4 mm.Spring stiffness is 40 N/mm.

Archit

04-19-2011, 12:50 AM

We are also participating in Supra SAE. we have a small doubt regarding brake callipers. Can we use the right hand callipers of the indian bikes on both sides of the car mounting one on the front and one on the rear?

The_Man

04-19-2011, 01:42 AM

You can use them in that way. Just make sure the bleeding screws are on top so that you can bleed the system with your calipers mounted.

Best of Luck,

Archit

04-19-2011, 01:58 AM

I have little knowledge on brakes and just want to clarify.
Having the above configuration means that the right side caliper mounts will be on the front side and the left hand ones on the rear of axle line. Will this not affect braking?

The_Man

04-19-2011, 02:09 AM

Why will it affect braking? They only thing is that the uprights you design can not be mirror images as the calipers will be on opposite sides and the braking forces will act in different direction.

buggaero

04-28-2011, 04:19 AM

We are an FSAE team from delhi and got in touch with a 4130 chromoly supplier in mumbai and this guy has quoted us Rs. 300/kg and 1.4kg/m for 4130.
He's talking about the certificate but i'm not very confident about him.
Plus he cites their business agenda.. No tubing sold below 50m of length... so we are facing a problem of buying 50m of suspension tubings as well....which i know we will not....
Obviously the tubing quality differs manufacturer wise..but on the whole... should we trust 1.4kg/m of his tubes to be genuine...considering the long standing histroy of fraud dealers???

The_Man

04-28-2011, 04:47 AM

Firstly Rs.300/kg is a very steep price to pay for chrome alloy steel. Secondly, Being from Mumbai we have had our share of trouble from suppliers trying to con us into buying tubes that they are not able to sell otherwise at a steep price. Check the certificate throughly.

I have personally come across a supplier who showed me a certificate for one material and then tried to sell to me an other material. So, be extra careful and double check your tube dimensions also.

I would recommend someone to visit the supplier before you order and see the conditions of the tubes, a lot of the tubing sold in Mumbai is rusting. I am still a little surprised you have to come all the way to Bombay to find tubing, though I must say I do not know too much about the market in and around Delhi.

buggaero

04-28-2011, 04:54 AM

Originally posted by The_Man:
Firstly Rs.300/kg is a very steep price to pay for chrome alloy steel. Secondly, Being from Mumbai we have had our share of trouble from suppliers trying to con us into buying tubes that they are not able to sell otherwise at a steep price. Check the certificate throughly.

I have personally come across a supplier who showed me a certificate for one material and then tried to sell to me an other material. So, be extra careful and double check your tube dimensions also.

I would recommend someone to visit the supplier before you order and see the conditions of the tubes, a lot of the tubing sold in Mumbai is rusting. I am still a little surprised you have to come all the way to Bombay to find tubing, though I must say I do not know too much about the market in and around Delhi.

I guess we'd not be able to check the rust thing...but thanx anyways....
and Delhi is the last place on the planet to think about doing FSAE in.
Delhi-6 is the area for all the tubes and Pipes and the only thing you get in retail is MS-1239
so teams themselves get fake certificates of MS 1018/1020 to prove they used standard tubing.
What price would you suggest to us for 4130?

buggaero

04-28-2011, 05:04 AM

What price would you suggest to us for 4130?

The_Man

04-28-2011, 05:12 AM

Originally posted by buggaero:

so teams themselves get fake certificates of MS 1018/1020 to prove they used standard tubing.

That is plain stupid and outright dangerous. The rules are there for the safety of the students, I really hope someone is reading this and will check these things at the competition.

The_Man

04-28-2011, 05:15 AM

Originally posted by buggaero:
What price would you suggest to us for 4130?

Check your PM.

Aneeshmittal10

04-29-2011, 01:42 AM

I am from IIT Roorkee. We are also looking for 4130 steel tubes. We contacted a dealer in Mumbai, who had our required dimensions. But now he is also asking us to buy atleast 50m of each dimension. From our recent conversations with him, he seems to be a fraud. Someone please help us out!

Aneesh Mittal
Vice-Captain
IIT Roorkee Motorsports

Mehul Botadra

04-29-2011, 11:32 PM

Make a trip to Mumbai. Thats your only option. And yes 50m of each dimension is correct for him to sustain a business!

sahani_fsae

05-01-2011, 07:40 AM

4130 Chromoly

Dimensions -

OD- 25.4mm +
Thickness - 2.5mm

OD - 25.4mm +
Thickness - 1.65mm

OD - 25.4mm +
Thickness - 1.25mm

available in bulk
anyone interested, mail your desired specifications asap..
adisahani_fsae@yahoo.com

mayank11

05-20-2011, 11:31 PM

hey
i have been lokking for rotors for sometime...for a specific rotor i mean.
od:220mm
five mounting points, mounting dia: 8mm, distance between centre of rotor and mounting holes=59.

please reply soon.
http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
mayank,
brakes, iitd

Mehul Botadra

05-20-2011, 11:49 PM

Thats the wrong procedure!

Select your rotor(brake disc) first and then design the wheel hub! Cheers!

sid_339

05-22-2011, 06:01 AM

Fabricate ur own disc as per ur requirement, thats's the only option.

Pradeep

05-29-2011, 09:24 AM

@ mayank11 : Kindly follow Mehul's advice, getting into the business of fabricating your own brake disc will only cause wastage of precious time,money and energy. Over the years we have used Pulsar and Apache brake discs, which have worked pretty well. Although you might have to make a spacer according to the hub you are using.

Concentrate on getting the car up and running as soon as possible, then test! test! test!

On a side note, i think making your own hub might be more beneficial than a brake disc.

Pradeep

05-29-2011, 09:43 AM

Here is something that I've made for my team : http://www.scribd.com/doc/5658...=q93x1rmnlff8uzunwgv (http://www.scribd.com/doc/56588003/The-History-of-Formula-Manipal-open-Ver?secret_password=q93x1rmnlff8uzunwgv)

Thought i'd share it here:
1. To improve co-operation between Indian teams and encourage everyone to "open up", so that we can all improve faster.
2. To help new team avoid similar mistakes.
3. To let new teams know what kind of infrastructure, facility & equipment is required - many Indian teams over-estimate the facilities of their college workshop and are ill equipped during the competition (without tools and camping stuff)

vandit

05-31-2011, 03:51 AM

Originally posted by Pradeep:
...Over the years we have used Pulsar and Apache brake discs, which have worked pretty well....

+ 1

in 2006 we had this disc (i think it was Victor's or may be Unicorn's ). It had an eccentric flange which saved us from trouble of spacer. The diameter and thickness were also compatible with Wilwood PS calipers.

Unfortunately, the bike model was not continued and later we had problems finding the same disc.

Concentrate on getting the car up and running as soon as possible, then test! test! test!

+ 1

rpVIT

05-31-2011, 08:45 PM

@Pradeep

Your report on the progress of Formula Manipal is excellent !

The list of common pitfalls and design errors which you provided was very valuable for us. We have managed to avoid most of the errors on the list, especially regarding driver comfort, cockpit space, fuel tank cap O-ring, clutch pedal stoppers, lock nuts, steering column mounting bush and putting right size of bolts on critical parts.

However, I think that we have made the car too heavy with preference on safety. Lets see how much weight we can shave off in the next few days.

Pradeep

06-01-2011, 08:42 AM

Im glad you found it useful http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Also a heavier car is in no way safer than a lighter one .

From past experience
Year: 2009
Logic:
1) Heavier car is safe
2) when in doubt increase thickness
Result: 300kg+ car

Year: 2010
Logic:
1) Hand calculation of loads using tire data, approx engine torque, driver forces
2) Simulate using FEA
3) Add some factor of safety
Result: ~250kg car

Year: 2011 & beyond
Logic:
1) Find accurate loads using DAQ, tire data and lap simulation
2) Simulate using FEA- static, dynamic & fatigue forces
3) Add minimum factor of safety
Result: hopefully near 210 kg

buggaero

06-01-2011, 11:04 AM

Anyone ever tried MMC in brake system ??

madhur

06-22-2011, 03:32 AM

Hi guys,
This is madhur jhawar from bharti vidyapeeth college of engineering kharghar, navi mumbai.
As we are thinking to take part in fsg for next year and we are starting from scratch so i will be needing your help & supports from all indian teams
and i hope you will help us out.

madhur

06-22-2011, 03:38 AM

About Engine

Can please any one help me out how we have to chose the engine for our car i had short listed 5 engines and i am not able to get their detailed specification & also on which all criteria i can select it so please help me out. The engines are as follows
1) Honda cbr 600rr
2) Honda cbr 600f
3) Honda CBR 600 RR HANNspree Ten Kate Replica 2008
4) Yamaha YZF-R6
5) Suzuki gsx r-600

Bemo

06-22-2011, 04:05 AM

I guess for you the most important issue should be availability. I don't know how easy or difficult it is in India to get these engines and spare parts for them.
All these engines are quite similar according the concept. They differ a bit in weight, but that shouldn't be your major concern.

As said check availability - and not only of the engines themselves, also of spare parts!
If you have to wait ages for parts you loose much time and that will cost you much more than some extra kilos or some missing horsepowers.

B Lewis @ PE Engine Management

06-22-2011, 06:25 AM

I am partial to the Hondas. I would go with either 1, 2 or 3. Whichever is the least expensive and most pletiful in your area.

buggaero

06-22-2011, 09:43 AM

Big Bird

06-22-2011, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by Bemo:
I guess for you the most important issue should be availability. I don't know how easy or difficult it is in India to get these engines and spare parts for them.
All these engines are quite similar according the concept. They differ a bit in weight, but that shouldn't be your major concern.

As said check availability - and not only of the engines themselves, also of spare parts!
If you have to wait ages for parts you loose much time and that will cost you much more than some extra kilos or some missing horsepowers.

Agreed. I fully believe a fully functional and reliable vehicle with a Bajaj engine is better than yet another high-spec wishlist car that blows out the budget and timeline, and never runs. The fact is that many teams are still failing to get a car running, and are spending a lot of time and money doing so.

I really want to see an Indian team finish top 10. Build a simple car with maybe a Royal Enfield engine or even the aforementioned Bajaj motors, do a solid two months testing and driver training. Bring it to Australia, finish all events. If that doesn't get you a top 10 finish I'll eat my hat. And it will win you the reputation as one of the highest finishing Indian teams ever. Would that not be a good start?

AngryIndian

06-22-2011, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by Big Bird:
Agreed. I fully believe a fully functional and reliable vehicle with a Bajaj engine is better than yet another high-spec wishlist car that blows out the budget and timeline, and never runs. The fact is that many teams are still failing to get a car running, and are spending a lot of time and money doing so.

I really want to see an Indian team finish top 10. Build a simple car with maybe a Royal Enfield engine or even the aforementioned Bajaj motors, do a solid two months testing and driver training. Bring it to Australia, finish all events. If that doesn't get you a top 10 finish I'll eat my hat. And it will win you the reputation as one of the highest finishing Indian teams ever. Would that not be a good start?

Yeah, completely agree with you. The problem with the Indian teams is that they spend a lot of time thinking about how they can reduce the weight of their cars, build as many components as possible out of advanced materials and improve the specs of their car. The end result is that there isn't enough time to test the car. Sometimes, it isn't even manufactured completely. One reason for this is the inherent dislike(due to unreliability) for any product made in India and the opinion that a race car will not be a race car if it does not have components manufactured by European and American companies.

The general point of view is:-"Why do we want to take a risk by using Indian engines? It might go kaput any time. Let's wait for a month for the Honda engine to arrive. We might be short of time, but at least it will be reliable."

In this regard, your thread "Reasoning your way through the FSAE design process" is extremely helpful for Indian teams. For anyone who hasn't been through it, here is the link:-
http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/t...7348/m/217101453/p/1 (http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/125607348/m/217101453/p/1)

vandit

06-23-2011, 06:07 AM

To the teams who are going to procure engine in future, my advice would be to take a decision and stick with that engine for 3-4 years. Work with it, understand it, develop know how, train the junior members, document everything. Even if you screw up the engine in process, make sure buy the same one again.

Nishant Jain

06-23-2011, 06:17 AM

@Madhur

I urge you to restrain from asking such simpleton questions. I am going to go on a limb here and be a little critical.

I don't see why you cant detailed specs of those 5 engines. If you try GOOGLE it would be the first result. I am sure.

(Just checked. Yes it IS the first result!)

Questions which can be easily answered with a little bit of independent searching should not be posted on the forum. FSAE is going to be very very difficult when you're doing it from India. But it will be impossible for you if you need to ask questions like these.

Shape up! Best of luck!

Vaibhav Kumar

06-24-2011, 04:51 AM

Go for Honda CBR 600 if you must get a high performance engine. However, order at least two engines at the same time. Second one will work as source of spares as well as backup in case the first engine blows up big time. Most Indian teams use the same engine and hence getting in touch with them for sharing spares will save a lot of time. Buy engine directly from the supplier and make the purchase through your university/college purchase department. That will save a lot of trouble from customs dept.

STAY AWAY FROM ANY AGENT/MECHANIC/DEALER WHO PROMISES TO IMPORT THE ENGINE FOR YOU. YOU DON'T NEED THAT. ALL YOU NEED IS A CREDIT CARD.

Among Indian engines, Royal Enfield should work. Also, Honda has launched Honda CBR 250 in India and that engine should be much lighter than the Royal Enfield ones for the same power. You can check its availability at the nearest Honda outlet.

If you want to avoid all this trouble, go electric.For a new team which has not invested a lot of money in buying multiple engines/spares etc, electric car is a good option. We have good motors/batteries available in India ( Reva/GWiz). Electric cars are also more likely to be supported by the industry than combustion cars.

Vaibhav
Formula Manipal Alumni

M.dheeraj

07-09-2011, 09:19 PM

hello guys...........
i wanted to know about the manufacturers for suspension...plzz...

M.dheeraj

07-09-2011, 09:31 PM

guys we are planning for a rocker arm suspension this year. which one is better ? , either standard ones are available or we can manufacture in our labs..?

could any one please help me..

Vaibhav Kumar

07-10-2011, 01:22 AM

@ Dheeraj

answer to 1st question - You are the manufacturer of suspension

answer to all other questions - Carrol Smith book

I would suggest a little reading. You can not learn to build a car on a forum. You have to start offline.

Vaibhav
Formula Manipal Alumni

Aman Kalia

10-01-2011, 07:18 AM

Hello to everyone on this Forum.

I'm from Maharaja Agrasen Institute of Technology, IP University, New Delhi. Our team is preparing for FS Germany 2012. We have got a basic idea about the competition and the car from our seniors but as the New Team consists of all new members so deciding on the fact what is wrong and right is becoming a bit cumbersome.

Though after reading a few books on automobile engineering and getting to know about the factors necessary for designing a chassis we built a few initial designs but we are not yet sure whether the chassis designed would be able to bear all the load and stresses in real case as doing Analysis on ANSYS is a bit troublesome. So if anyone could guide us on how to analyse the chassis on ANSYS and what all basic forces have to be considered we could go on to the manufacturing of the chassis.

The_Man

10-01-2011, 10:08 AM

Hi Aman,

It would be great if you share with us the efforts you have made with the analysis of your chassis on ANSYS. If you can show us the point at which you are stuck during analysis or the part of the analysis you do not trust, we can surely help you out with your design.

Your chassis should be designed for rigidity, the target rigidity usually ensures that non of your components are really close to rupture. You can do a few basic rigidity analysis by having constrains at one end of your chassis and apply a torque at the other end. By each end I mean the suspension pick up points. This is because the loads are transferred in and out of you chassis through the suspension. Try look at the path which the load takes from the front to the rear, that way you will know which sections you need to triangulate and in which you can save weight.

I hope this helps.

Mahek

Aman Kalia

10-02-2011, 06:06 AM

Thanks for your Support!

Actually we haven't analysed on ANSYS yet but did a Static Analysis in solidworks considering just the force due to weight of the driver, engine. I was told that for better result i must try ANSYS but working on ANSYS involves inputting a lot of data and there are so many types of Analysis that it confuses me.

For example: If i want to perform the load test so as to see that under loaded conditions what will be the condition of chassis then which analysis should I do : Static Structural, Rigid Dynamics or Buckling?

Also as you mentioned that I should perform the Torsion Test, then under which analysis does that come. I know I may sound really Kiddish but I tried a few tutorials and it has confused me more, i suppose it's due to the tension that chassis manufacture may get postponed without analysis. But, I would be really greatful if you could provide me some Starting Point and the direction in which I must think so that I'm able to analyse it well in time.

The_Man

10-03-2011, 02:43 AM

Hi,

Static Structural is of your primary interest, since you want to put loads in your chassis structure in a static state. You can go through ANSYS documentation to see how exactly they are different.

The basic ANSYS analysis does not really involve input of Data you don't really know. What ever is your input in SolidWorks can be used here. I would suggest initially put your chassis loads as keypoints join them by lines the way they are connected to your chassis and mesh them using a beam element. Apply your loads as you have put in solid works and see if your results are close. That should give you some confidence in your analysis.

The torsion test is a similar test as to the one you have in mind but the loads are applied differently at different points.

Mahek

ftorque

10-16-2011, 08:34 AM

Hi guys,
Just joined this forum.
Resident of Mumbai but studying M.Tech(I.C.Engines) in Chennai.
Didn't know that teams from india forum existed. So apologies for starting a different forum.
And why are there no post since 2008. If you have moved to some different place let me know.
Nice call from Hiren and Vineet.
Guys if are racing anywhere count me in.
Registered my team for FSAE Lincoln event-June 2012.
Any team going for any 2012 competitions?
Waiting for replys....
-Ashish
Lead-Designer & Technical Head.
Team-Veltech India.
Veltech University, Chennai.
Mob No-8122355760.
ftorque@gmail.com

ftorque

10-16-2011, 08:35 AM

Sorry about the 2008 comment.

shark.ashwa

10-17-2011, 01:51 AM

Hey,
While analyzing your designed chassis on ANSYS or any other analysis software might seem important, it is not neccessary for a first year team. Your goals should include finishing your car on time and testing it so that you understand more about your car than previously. Also I have been in the process of analyzing the chassis on ANSYS, not much to it. I would suggest a basic FBD of all inboard points being your greatest help at this point. Also refer any documents previously published regarding to chassis design that might give some more insight. Best of luck for your 2012 event, we ourselves are hoping to better our best score yet this year. And as for the guys hoping to race each other.....keep dreaming guys. Finish all your dynamic events and then we'll see.

Cheers.

Ignited

11-03-2011, 04:26 AM

@Aman Kalia

I can just give you a hint to find torsional rigidity.Let K=Torsional rigidity,T =Torque applied and theta = twisted angle.Then T=Kxtheta(basic solid mechanics).Now, tan(theta)=theta for very small angle which is applicable in our case.Therefore theta = Y/L where Y is the displacement and L=moment arm.So what ultimately you need to calculate torsional rigidity is displacement 'y' which you get from static analysis.Now the trick is how to model the chassis, where to apply the torque , where to constraint so on and so forth!! That I leave on you. (Just a hint- everything is there in this forum).

Regards,

Ankit
ISM-Dhanbad.

PatClarke

11-09-2011, 04:42 PM

Hopefully a legitimate reason to bump this thread =]

Early in the thread, someone was asking about uprights.

Here is a site with some simple upright solutions.
http://www.ozclubbies.com.au/i...upright/page__st__20 (http://www.ozclubbies.com.au/index.php?/topic/3397-fabricated-upright/page__st__20)

Pat

PatClarke

11-09-2011, 08:19 PM

Another advisory post from Pat =]

Here is a photo blog site for a team in the UK working through their FSUK project. It dates back about 5 or 6 years, so I don't think we are letting any secrets out. It also has some pictures of other race car structures, Formula Ford etc.

The blog is from a Citroen Saxo boy racer site, so ignore some of the uninformed comments.

A few warnings!

There are some significant design errors in the car. Rod ends in bending, oblique load paths, excessive scrub radius, insufficient camber gain etc. Later in the blog you will see the effects of putting rod ends in bending and look at the front wheel camber in cornering!

I think the team spent far too much money on some aspects of the car, but thats just my opinion. 2000 quid for a yaw sensor??!!

Testing a new car (an unknown quantiy!) in a t shirt and without a helmet is absolute lunacy! and for this reason, I have refrained from identifying and embarrassing the team.

This series of pictures, from design to completed car, should give some beginner teams an idea of what they need to achieve to successfully build a straightforward FS/FSAE car.

I hope this helps some teams

Cheers

Pat

http://www.saxperience.com/for...wthread.php?t=125764 (http://www.saxperience.com/forum/showthread.php?t=125764)

Krish1108

11-10-2011, 05:54 AM

HI guys,

A great initiative.....I am a bit late, I guess....http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif anyways it will be fun sharing knowledge and working together.

Krishna
(8220377043)
Team Pravega
VIT University, Vellore

PatClarke

04-21-2012, 08:30 PM

Bump

Pat

Jon Burford

04-22-2012, 02:22 AM

nice photo blog. I happened to find an album of build photos from our 2004/2005 team which I will post a link to if I can find it again.

Happy building

AngryIndian

04-27-2012, 03:34 AM

One of the problems with inexperienced teams is that when they design any component they do not look at the manufacturing and assembly feasibility part of it. This leads to a lot of time wastage during the latter part of the year when manufacturing or testing should be taking place. Now that I have graduated and am working in an automotive company, I can see the processes that companies follow for designing any part. There are 2 concepts which I would like to discuss regarding this. All teams should do these checks while designing.

1. Design for Manufacturing(DFM)- Verify whether the component designed is feasible to be manufactured. Answer the following questions before approving the design-

Is it feasible to manufacture the designed component? How much will it cost? How much time will it take to fabricate it? Do we have the necessary resources and budget for manufacturing? If we do not have the resources, is there a company which can do the work for us? How much will it cost to outsource the work to a company? Etc...

2. Design for Assembly(DFA)- Verify whether the component can be assembled in the car. Answer the following questions before approving the design-

Where will the part be assembled on the car? Is that position reachable for quick assembly/disassembly without straining your body too much? Is there enough space for the part to be assembled? How much time will it take to assemble and remove the part? How many fasteners like nuts, bolts, screws, etc. will be needed? What will be the cost of these fasteners? Is the design of the fixture for assembling the part feasible? Etc...

The sub team and technical heads must do these checks before the design for any part is approved. This will not only save a lot of time and money by eliminating errors at the design stage itself, it will also make the team more professional and organized.

shark.ashwa

04-29-2012, 08:59 PM

Thats also what a good knowledge transfer model from the graduating team to the newbies will also help to accomplish. Only a hyandful of teams have a good model in place.......otherwise its always starting from scratch each year....

Sharath

AngryIndian

05-05-2012, 07:24 AM

Yes, we see that more in India because of the cultural/mentality problem. There is knowledge in India, but people don't want to share it with others for fear of losing their competitive edge. We can see this mentality developing right from childhood with parents actively encouraging their children not to share their knowledge. The root cause of this problem, just like most of the other problems plaguing India, is population explosion which has led to tough competition in every field. It's high time we let go of this negative way of thinking.

Dinesh SAE

05-22-2012, 08:37 PM

Are There any active teams from India participating in FSAE this year?

shark.ashwa

05-22-2012, 08:55 PM

Originally posted by Dinesh SAE:
Are There any active teams from India participating in FSAE this year?

Dinesh,

Ashwa Racing has registered for FSAE Italy this year.
I'm sure Orion Racing is headed to FSG this year.
Dunno about Manipal, IIT Roorkee, and the other ones.....

Sharath

Claude Rouelle

05-26-2012, 08:37 PM

To Angry Indian:

What "competitive edge" would a today FSAE / FS team from India loose by sharing information or questions?

Claude

PatClarke

05-27-2012, 12:53 AM

Dinesh,
I haven't yet got the entire entry list for FSUK, but for the other official Euro events, the entries are as follows.

FS Germany, three entries...
Mumbai Somaiya
Bangalore BMSCE
Navi Mumbai BCVOE

FS Austria, two entries, both on the waiting list and unlikely to get a start...
Hindustan Institute of Technology And Science (waiting list)
Indian Institute of Technology Bombay (waiting list)

FSAE Italy, eleven entries!
RV College of Engineering
Vellore Inst. Of Technology
Indian Institute of Technology, Madras
Hindustan University
Bangalore Inst. of Technology
HMR institute of Technology and Management
Punjabi University
JECRC
National Inst. Of Technology, Jamshedpur
National Institute of Technology Karnataka, Surathkal
Sri Venkateshwara College of Engineering

Cheers

Pat

Jon Burford

05-27-2012, 01:28 AM

FSUK I can see the following on the confirmed list

Delhi Technological University
Hindustan University
Indian Institute of Technology Kharagpur
Indian Institute of Technology, Madras
Indian Institute of Technology, Delhi
Thapar University
VIT University

PatClarke

05-27-2012, 02:22 AM

Thanks Jon

Pat

Jon Burford

05-27-2012, 02:36 AM

No worries,
I am really looking forward to seeing you all and competing with you at Silverstone this year.
Lets hope it's a good event for us all.

AngryIndian

05-27-2012, 04:15 AM

That's a cultural/mentality problem in India, not just in FSAE but as a whole. It might be difficult for Europeans to understand this, but due to overpopulation there is very tough competition in India in every field and this has resulted in a self-centered attitude which is bred right from childhood.

In Indian FSAE teams, people are reluctant to share information that they had worked hard to gain with new team members. So it's like starting from scratch each year.

Originally posted by Claude Rouelle:
To Angry Indian:

What "competitive edge" would a today FSAE / FS team from India loose by sharing information or questions?

Claude

Claude Rouelle

05-28-2012, 09:39 PM

I have a hard time to choose between laughing and crying when I read you are afraid of “losing your competitive edge".

Come on guys... which competitive edge?

I have been relentlessly advising team from India at many FSAE / FS competitions as well as during seminars in India for several years with the hope that one day Indian FSAE / FS teams would come with at least clean and reliable cars.

Unfortunately years after years it seems than my efforts and the one of several other design judges (Pat Clarke, Steve Fox just to name a few) have not been successful. Most of the time Indian car design and execution is nothing other than catastrophic. Sometimes the cars are even dirty; don't tell me that a clean rag with soapy water is what is going to aggravate your budget. Indian cars do rarely pass technical inspection and they rarely finish dynamic events. When Indian cars improve one notch (if they ever do, because most often I have seen cars worse than the one of the previous year) other teams improve 2 or 3 notches. The gap keeps increasing...

Indian FS / FSAE cars quality is a disgrace for Indian students, Indian universities, and simply India. I know that when I write this many of you feel offended. Would "AngryIndian" be a metaphor? They tell me they are proud of their country; that is the wrong answer, the wrong topic. I am not attacking people; I am trying to attack the problem. in fact my goal is not to offend Indian teams; it is to help them. But you guys can't improve unless you have a clear consciousness of the issues and the huge challenges you are facing. Somebody needs to tell you. I do. And I write it.

There is worse: pictures of Indian FS / FSAE cars circulate in emails and website as sarcastic examples of worse possible FS cars. It hurts...

I was at the Chinese Formula Student competition in October 2011. One of the evenings, the students did organize a meeting where only students were present (not too bad for a country where democracy is questioned). I was a guest, probably the only "old guy" there and some Chinese students did translate for me. One of the goals of the meeting was for the students to organize communication, information circulation, forum, share info on how to design better cars, find good and cheaper parts etc... Meanwhile you guys want to protect your "competitive edge"...

Wake up and face today reality of world competition. You can do that without losing your nature, your identity or your culture. The world has so much to gain from your history, your culture, your philosophy (but not your reputation of corruption). To do that you need to speak the same language. One of the common languages you can adopt is the one of decent FSAE / FS cars so that you are recognized as a real emerging country.

Don't get me wrong: we do not need perfect / high budget cars. This is an engineering competition that we want to see wide open to many countries and many cultures. But by showing up with unfinished cars, Indian teams often take the place (limited registration number at most FS / FSAE events) of others hard working team. Indian teams are rarely aware of the FSAE /FS competitions or simply today automotive quality expectations.

I think new team or long time unsuccessful teams (most if not all Indian team) should be asked to have their faculty adviser and 3 students coming to a FSAE / FS competition at least one year in advance so that they realize the challenges they have to face. I also think drawing, pictures videos and maybe even basic engineering report should sent 6 months in advance to a panel of judges before team registration are effectively accepted. I am not making the rules but I have been suggesting this to the organizers.

On this point of view I am in the clear opinion that SupraSAE was the wrong thing to do. With the pretext to make the manufacturing of Indian Formula Student affordable with common engine, tires, suspension parts it just takes Indian team even further way om the awareness of world competitive reality and exigences. Last but not least, it seems that the whole competition is not professionally organized and both cars and races are extremely unsafe.

OK let try to be positive. I will stop grumbling and instead ask YOUR (and/or any other Indian team members) opinion and contribution.

So here are 4 questions for you:
1. Do you think this mentality needs to be changed? Why?
2. Do you think this mentality can be changed? If so, how long do you think it would take.
3. If the answer to question 1 and 2 are yes what do you suggest Indians do?
4. If the answer to question 1 and 2 are yes what do hope / suggest that non-Indian FSAE / FS participants (students, organizers, judges, press) could do to help?

Hope this could help. Maybe. One day. Sigh...

Claude Rouelle

PatClarke

05-29-2012, 07:16 AM

Hear hear Claude!

Pat

Falcon™

05-29-2012, 08:41 AM

@AngryIndian you have completely got it wrong dude. AFAIK the only reasons why new team members start usually from scratch is because either they don't listen to what the seniors have to suggest OR they never ask for help from the seniors. Besides I remember about reading a thread where many FSAE seniors from international teams mentioned similar issues. In case of my team, I feel some of the key team members just wanted an international event on their CV so that they could get into a reputed university for their masters http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif .

Assuming what you say is right and Indian teams don't share data/knowledge with new team members, what is stopping these team members from posting on forums or contacting international teams to get answers?

Frankly speaking all this is just a big EXCUSE. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Originally posted by AngryIndian:
That's a cultural/mentality problem in India, not just in FSAE but as a whole. It might be difficult for Europeans to understand this, but due to overpopulation there is very tough competition in India in every field and this has resulted in a self-centered attitude which is bred right from childhood.

In Indian FSAE teams, people are reluctant to share information that they had worked hard to gain with new team members. So it's like starting from scratch each year.

AngryIndian

05-29-2012, 10:31 AM

Hello Claude,
It’s really great that you and the other judges are trying so hard to help the Indian teams. We all really appreciate your efforts.

Firstly, I would like to clarify some things.
When I wrote “losing competitive edge”, I did not mean losing it to European/ American/ Australian teams. We do not hold any competitive edge against these teams so there is nothing to lose. In India, we do not even think of competing with Europe/America. There is so much competition among Indians. As Falcon correctly pointed out, most of the people(including the hard working ones) participate in FSAE because they want a good job or admission to a reputed university in the US. Helping the team do well is also a priority, but it’s definitely not the end objective. So there is competition among Indians to go ahead in life and that may happen at the expense of others.

Secondly, very few Indians are truly proud of their country. If we had a choice to help in the development of our country or move abroad to a developed country, 99% of people will choose the latter(including me). Maybe it’s because we are so sick of the corruption around us we have started to believe that nothing is gonna change. A majority of middle and upper class youngsters know much more about American sitcoms and junk food than Indian cultural history. This could be a reason why Indian teams do not think that they are representing their country at FSAE.

Ok, now coming to the point.

Problems facing Indian teams: - I truly believe that lack of money/technology are lame excuses for failure. These are the real reasons:

1.Lack of planning- “Failing to plan is planning to fail”. This saying is proved right year after year for Indian teams. A comprehensive plan is rarely made and in case it is made, very few follow it. Moreover there is only Plan A, no Plan B or C

2.Very bad time management- There is a reason why Indian Standard Time(IST) is called Indian Stretchable Time. In our country, time is of secondary importance compared to money. No Indian function ever starts on time. Rarely is any train/bus on time. How can anyone even expect Indian teams to finish their cars on time?

3.Lack of collaboration and teamwork- Different sub-groups like engine, suspension, etc. don’t collaborate properly. There is also insufficient interaction between members of current and previous year’s team because of ego problems.

4.Very less knowledge of project management- This is something that we should learn. Maybe the well established teams from Europe/USA could help us in this. This also comes from experience and the older teams passing on their knowledge.

5.Indian Education system- Engineering education here is a joke and comprises mostly of rote learning and memorizing. During the exams we are supposed to regurgitate whatever we have “learnt”. We are spoonfed everything since childhood and that's why many people ask stupid questions in FSAE forum demanding readymade answers.

With regards to your questions,

1.Yes, this mentality definitely needs to be changed at the earliest because it eventually leads to incomplete car-bad performance- broken pride- frustration. People give up their sleep and food because they are working hard towards the competition and in the end the results do not show the dedication.

2. and 3. Yes, this mentality can be changed but the changes should not be expected overnight. People should be patient and realize that just one year of excellent project management does not lead to good results. It would be too difficult for me to give an estimate of the time. But I think around 3-5 years of sustained and consistent hard work, following good practices(Big Bird’s thread) and interacting with past team members and foreign teams should lead to significant changes.

4.As I mentioned before most of the major problems that teams face is non technical. Foreign teams, judges and organizers could help us with this. Maybe the next time you organize a seminar in India, you spend half the time in these areas. We can eventually get technical knowledge from books and internet but project management is not something that can be read and applied. Your knowledge and experience could definitely help us in this.

ftorque

05-29-2012, 10:22 PM

Thanks Claude for the concern that you have expressed for Indian Teams competing at International FSAE/FS events.
As for SUPRASAE goes, only the powertrain is been provided by a reputed manufacturer in India to cancel out the problem that many teams face of funds for getting a 600cc(International FSAE/FS event engine standard) imported engine of which they hardly have any knowledge.
The 800cc engine used in SUPRASAE cannot be touched as per regulations and the top speed of the car is restricted to 97kmph and the ECU cannot be touched.
This years event is been organized on a much larger scale and is been held at the Formula 1 International circuit in Delhi.
The technical inspection and scrutinizing of the cars is been done by the best of people in the Indian automotive industry and along with the restricted speed the cars and races are extremely safe.
The new cars been built this year are very good and i would like to send you pictures of the same.
Maybe as the event gets older they will change the rules about the powertrain to enable International participation.
I think your "6 months in advance" suggestion is really good and will help eliminate the teams not prepared for the events. The same procedure is been adopted for SUPRASAE, because of the huge number of participants.
The problem with Dirty Indian cars is that most of the cars are dis-assembled and transported overseas to reduce logistics cost and then re-assembled. They can clean it but i just cant say why they don't?
1,2 & 3.As for the mentality thing, very few of Indian students(teams) like to share knowledge among competing teams and have a healthy competition.
Yes, it should change but i don't think it will. Because very few do actually have a practical hands on experience on car design and assembly, which they don't want to share among true interested students and the 'book' ones. The students who have participated previously and have gained the knowledge feel the same and don't pass on it to their juniors.
The faculty adviser's are also responsible since most of them think that students should not enter into motorsports and racing(even though India have so many Motorsports teams and racing competitions) as it not included in the curriculum and wont help them get a job in the competitive Indian job market.
So, i think the trend will go on.....
4. If only FSAE/FS Judges and organizers hold seminars and conduct symposiums in India, will they be able to share the concern and spread the word among the colleges wishing to participate. It can be done from January-May. Why not have competitions prior to the events for technical presentation about suspension, brake., designs in India itself that will forcefully spread the word. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
And to end things, it would be better if Indian teams first participate in the SUPRASAE event and get a knowledge of things before going international. It will help them secure more sponsors, understand technical inspection process and better still make a car that will complete all the events.
The teams that clear SUPRASAE here will definitely make much better cars for FSAE/FS events. And then you just might get the non-catastrophic, good quality, clean and finished Indian cars.

Jon Burford

05-29-2012, 10:36 PM

As I have said many times before.
I am willing to give any adivice and help to anybody and as much as I can. That's if anybody wants advice from a madman like myself!

Pm me or email me anytime and I will endeavour to advise or find somebody that can.

ed_pratt

05-30-2012, 01:57 AM

Hi guys,

The idea of withholding your knowledge from junior team members on your own team is something which I really don't understand.

As I am coming towards the end of my PhD I have ended up doing more and more teaching.
I can honestly say that the single biggest effect of teaching someone else is that I have learned FAR more than I have been able to teach.
Passing on what you know is not giving something away, it helps to consolidate your knowledge and when questions are asked - holes in that knowledge are revealed. You can then go away and fill them!

Teaching others is, in my experience, the fastest way to learn new things for yourself.

Ed

Claude Rouelle

05-30-2012, 09:00 AM

Ed,

Welcome to my world! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Teaching is learning a second time. Just better. In 15 years I taught 338 public and/or in-house (car, tire, damper manufacturers, wind tunnel etc...) three or four days seminars to a about 8700 people in 34 different countries. I am out of home 200 days a year (and still happily married, my wife is a saint!)

The mimimumm attenance was one participant: Gilles Simon who was at that time the chief engine engineer for Ferrari F1 and who wanted to know more vehicle dynamics. He is now working on the new PURE F1 Engine. The maximum was in India in 2010 where we had 131 participants. (I fell in love in India until I understood how bad and big the influence of corruption was in that country)

35 years in vehicle dynamics and race car engineering, 338 seminars and also vehicle dynamics course at master level in 3 different universities...and I still learn every day. Believe it or not I never heard a stupid question. Students and professionals push you to look at the same things with their own perspectives; I learn so much from them. That is thanks to them that we keep improving our seminar content.

I encourage you and other to teach whether you make it time to time or you make it a full time job: it pushes you to get outside your comfort zone, to listen to others, better answer questions and explain complex system in simple ways. It makes you both ambitious to know more and humble because you know you will never know everything. Besides the financial income (better in companies than with students seminars) the main satisfaction is that you feel you make a difference, you give to the world .... and inevitably a few days or a few years the world gives back to you. Similarly I push students and professional to attend seminars and conference and never stop questioning their knowledge level. And you always meet people and increase your the size of network which could help you one day. That is not going to happen if you stay home. I still go to seminar my self and I never have regretted the investment. There are very, very good books out there....but you can't ask question to a book.

It would be nice to meet you Ed. Will you be at FS UK?

Claude

Claude Rouelle

05-30-2012, 11:22 AM

ftorque,

First safety.
I strongly disagree with you. You are never safe enough. Just have a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...qUgc&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUYlo4nqUgc&feature=related)

Cars are running side by side! In all other competitions there are specific place with parallel lines for overtaking. These cars are most of the time driven by very amateur, unskilled inexperienced drivers and have not been designed to have car to car impact. NOT ONE of the car I saw in Chennai SupraSAE would have passed technical inspection in a US or a German FS/ FSAE competition,. The circuit is way, way, way too fast. How can a car manufacturer associate his name to such an unsafe event? The pubic is also way too close. It is way too dangerous. Just imagine one lost wheel! The video would go around the world in minutes, the prove would be made it wasn't safely organized and your reputation is done for ever. Remember ti is supposed to be an engineering, cost and project management competition based on race cars, not a race car competition for apprentice engineers

About the budget. When we have a meeting at OptimumG with our engineering group and we are attacking a racing project one of the first question I ask is: "how much are how competitor spending?" and "how many people do they have in their team?". If they are 10 people and spend 1 Million $ then we MAYBE can do it with 7 guys and 700.000$ because we are young smart, working hard, no bureaucracy, little inertia, fresh and blank sheet ideas. OK but we will not make it if 300.000 $ and 3 people. No way. In this business we have to be realistic. You need to have a clear perspective of what it will take (that includes money and time) to be competitive. Racing is not cheap. What is good is not cheap and what is cheap is not good. If you do not have enough money do not even start it: the only thing you will achieve is failure, demoralizing your own troops and lower your self esteem. So now comes the next thing which comes here is "bit Sir (they always call you Sir in India, they say it is a mark of respect but western people end up thinking that is too nice to be true so they think Indian must be hiding something, as for me, if we meet just call me Claude)..so "sir we do not have tehj money" The answer is find it! The money IS there. "but we tried and we did not get anywhere, what can we sell the car doesn't even exist yet!"... and the answer is: that is because you did not sell the most important thing you have: your emotions!. Money IS there. Finding it IS posible and your marketing effort is one of the challenges of Formula student competitions.

Standard parts: How do you want to educate engineers with a sealed engine and ECU. This is a joke!

"The technical inspection and scrutinizing of the cars is been done by the best of people in the Indian automotive industry." Maybe. That doesn't mean they reached the international standards... How many times have these tech inspectors gone to other FSAE / FS competitions?

"The new cars been built this year are very good and i would like to send you pictures of the same" I have nee told that many times so I will believe when I will see it at the UK German and Italian competition I am skeptical but I would be happy to be surprised!

"The problem with Dirty Indian cars is that most of the cars are dis-assembled and transported overseas to reduce logistics cost and then re-assembled" Please... find another excuse.

"The students who have participated previously and have gained the knowledge feel the same and don't pass on it to their juniors" this very FSAE forum is about sharing experience and advice. That is the essence of this competition; this is not F1! Are Indians that different from the rest of the world that they do not want to share strengths and weakness, doubt and certitudes, success and failures?

"And to end things, it would be better if Indian teams first participate in the SUPRASAE event and get a knowledge of things before going international." Strongly disagree.
1. Do not go to unsafe competitions.
2. There is no better way to prepare your self for international competition than international competitions!
3. Shoot of the moon;if you miss it you can end up on a star.
4. What the heck are you afraid about?

"The faculty adviser's are also responsible since most of them think that students should not enter into motorsports and racing(even though India have so many Motorsports teams and racing competitions) as it not included in the curriculum and wont help them get a job in the competitive Indian job market." You may have touched the center of the problem. You have to work wit a strong organization which will connect you with the auto industry, the education system and the sponsors.

Remember "everything is possible", "nothing is written"

Look at of 1:35 of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2cDJwxS50I
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjewkn59yw0 and
and
2:34 of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...DPSaE&feature=relmfu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfLmxQDPSaE&feature=relmfu)

arohit1911

05-30-2012, 02:18 PM

Ban SupraSAE in its present scenario.
I have talked to many colleges participating in Supra, they are full of ego. They think they can manufacture a car in 6 months. Just listen to them and there design objectives . They do not follow any kind of race events : F1, LeMans or anything. And they will proudly say they are making an "F1 car" . LOL.
I will prefer 2 years of time delay in manufacturing to participate in an international event where you can learn something, instead of participating in Supra.
I have to face harsh criticism from team and college administration for time delay of 2 years before going to any competition but I am happy not participate in Supra where you learn nothing and build a crap.

PatClarke

05-30-2012, 07:27 PM

Rohit,

In a country as large and disparate as India, how on earth can you even consider a 'single national team' as a reasonable concept?

FSAE is not motorsport (as has been seen by the many FSAE competitors who have graduated to 'real' motorsport will attest).

It is an educational exercise! FSAE was designed specifically to give graduating students a practical exercise to round out their education!

An exercise they would be passionate about rather than one they 'have to achieve in order to graduate', something extra, something to be excited about.

Something to persuade them to search and learn about different skills and cultures.
Something to replicate 'real world' experience and to teach them about deadlines.

A competitive entry is easily achieveable by a small number of students with a small budget! We have seen it happen, we have seen such teams succeed far beyond expectations and we have seen the students go on to stellar careers in industry (not necessarily motorsport) afterwards!

The mistake made in forming SupraSAE is the organisers believed 'It's all too difficult for the Indian students, so we will have standard components the students can use, rather than having them design something'!

WTF??? FSAE is all about designing stuff!

We have seen the effect of this thinking before. The organisers at FSUK decided the task woule be too difficult for some small universities, so they introduced Class Three, where the teams just had to present a design and some bits, the idea being they would complete the car and compete in the next competition. That didn't happen, the unis just kept entering Class Three until it was scrapped.

Then there was Class Two, where teams were allowed to bring back last years car 'with improvements'. Result? A team of rookies turned up with a car they didn't understand because they didn't design it.

The end result of this has been that no UK team has ever won a FSAE or FS event anywhere in the world despite the UK being 'Racecar Central'. Think about that!

Other countries where the event was run strictly to FSAE rules like Australia, Germany, Austria, Japan, Italy etc. have produced winners at international level within a year or two!

The FSAE Formula is 'right' and any attempt to soften it to make it easy for the students loses the intent and results in mediocraty or worse. This is what we are seeing, not just in SupraSAE but in the FSAE/FS cars that Indian teams have taken to International events.

An issue I see in India is the students are skilled in simulation, CFD, FEA etc, yet short on 2 critical things.
1. Basic mechanical knowledge and
2. An understanding of what the students in other countries actually achieve.

Your statement 'As a group we could beat any international team' is laughable. I can nominate 20 teams today who would whup your ass so hard you wouldn't understand what happened!

The reason is, a unified national Indian team would have, to paraphrase the old saying, 'Too many Indians and too many chiefs'!

All the best teams have a strong, committed and respected (among his peers) leader and a tight cohesive group. If there is a 'trick' to FSAE success it is Project Management and that would never occur with a national team.

BTW, I love how you immediately qualify your idea of a national team by nominating some conditions =]

Signing off, SAE India knows the current situation is unsatisfactory on a number of levels and is taking serious steps to address this. No doubt there will be some official announcements made, but be warned, there are big changes afoot for FSAE India!

Finally, I would urge all teams to once again read the thread started by Geoff Pearson (Big Bird) found at...
http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/t...25607348/m/217101453 (http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/125607348/m/217101453)

The answers are all there!

Cheers

Pat

arohit1911

05-30-2012, 08:31 PM

I do not know why I wrote "single national team". It would be a blunder.

I wanted to say 2 type of collaboration:
1) Two experienced teams pairing up [say RV and Manipal]. This would eliminate the errors they make individually. But yes this will take much better project management.
2) One new team and one experienced team pairing up [say Manipal and IITK]. Though this association should be only on administrative side. Otherwise the new team will make exact replica of the older team. This is a kind of mentor program for new teams on what not to do.

And I totally agree with you that Indian students are skilled with CAE without mechanical knowledge.

Kevin Hayward

05-30-2012, 08:33 PM

Claude,

Love the clips from Lawrence of Arabia. By far my favourtie movie!

Kev

Kevin Hayward

05-30-2012, 09:11 PM

I don't think the joining of two below par teams will yield a world-beater. While GFR has been a great success internationally it is important to note that both teams were really good teams in their own right. The joining of the two teams brought out and strengthened what was already there.

When it comes to FSAE I am a big fan of Aesop's fable of the Hare and the Tortoise. The large majority of teams are ill prepared for the long term approach. When you take a long term plan beating 90% of the teams in FSAE becomes a very realistic proposition. Some of the keys to this approach are:

- Knowledge and people retention. You need to keep the understanding you build, and you want team members that contribute for a number of years.

- Build your leaders early. Giving 1st year team members crap jobs because that's what you did when you started is a bad way of training good designers. Start as you mean to end and challenge them early so they have time to accumulate knowledge and experience. Mentoring is very important here.

- Build a culture of excellence. For a car with many parts it only takes one that is sub par to ruin your event. You need to have a team culture where work can be done again without someone being offended. I have been involved in some FSAE years where enough parts were rebuilt that could form a whole other car.

- Reliability must come before speed. A new team cannot hope to beat a top level team with well trained drivers. It can beat most teams that fail to finish endurance.

- Eliminate your weaknesses and target your strengths to overcome your competitors weaknesses. This includes money, if you don't have enough focus on getting more. It also means know your competitors. Every team has problems, and you are unlikely to find a competitive advantage doing what the good teams are already doing. This is a long process, sometimes it takes years to weed out problems such as team culture and adequate resourcing.

When I was involved with the first UWA teams I was told something that was incredibly valuable by one of our faculty advisors. He basically said (massive paraphasing) you have all done a very good job this year but you do not have a hope of winning this year. It was a very hard bit of advice to hear given how much effort it takes to start a team and build a car. However, once the size of the challenge was fully comprehended it became no more than a typical engineering problem that could be broken down into a series of smaller problems and goals.

What Pat and Claude are trying to impress upon the Indian teams is this same advice. The problem you are facing is very very large. The teams you are trying to compete with are doing much more work than you can comprehend at the moment and the performance gap is widening. Your teams are small, underfunded and are starved of knowledge. Your manufacturing standards are woeful, and effective project planning and management appear completely lacking. The cars from India are worse than worst cars in FSAE from more than a decade ago. The first successful Indian team will be the one that starts addressing these core problems and is able to maintain continuous improvement for a period of at least 5-6 years.

Kev

The_Man

05-30-2012, 09:31 PM

I really do not think we need anything radical like common teams or a ban Supra etc. These things are going to cause more problems than solutions.

The key is to really read this thread and understand it's purpose. The philosophy of this competition is quite different from any other form of competitions that currently exist in India. The primary aim is learning, secondary to nurture quality engineering and tertiary to win.

It is simple, a attempt at the car need to be simple and engineering should be sound. There is not point getting intimidated by the top teams, they have gotten there over many years and you will take some time too. Look that the rookie teams that have done well. they would have a medium weight car with the fanciest thing on the car being the push bar, but they will work and complete endurance. It is really important to realize there is no right answer to 90% of the questions that come up during the entire FS life cycle. Hence there are is no one who can teach you or point you to a book that tells you how to build the right suspension. If that was true were is the fun? It is not funny how many people have called in to ask me what the correct algorithm was to design an SLA suspension. If I explain that it is dependent on a lot of other factors and explain the trade offs involved, I am seen as someone who is not divulging information.

Honestly I do not think there is too much rivalry too. there has always been some amount of co-operation between geographically close teams. Exchange of information and major assistance at time of need is not uncommon.

I understand why Claude, Pat and many others on the forum are quite frustrated. I wish I can somehow force every new joining rookie team to go through this thread and understand the purpose of this forum so that it's and the competition's quality can be maintained.

I really want to dismiss the misconception that Indian teams are egoistic (I can not think of any reason why they can even afford to be that?) or so competitive that they are not willing to share. So I'll say it again that I am willing to help any of you and talk to any of you about any topic that you want to. I am willing to share with you any calculations, CAD, CAE studies and design ideas that I used during my FSAE times (Packaged with all the design blunders for you to sieve out). I am no expert but I am sure can point you to the right people and reading. There are many others on this forum who will do the same. It is important not to treat this stuff has gospel.

Mail-mahekmody[at]gmail[dot]com
Phone - +91[nine]0360[nine]00[nine]1

Only request is don't ask a one liner "How to go about designing a suspension?" and expect a step by step solution. In that case I'll be a smug egoistic arrogant information concealing git and ask you to go buy Race Car Vehicle Dynamics.

We are a country that literally churns out engineers in the millions every year. We can do better.

PatClarke

05-30-2012, 10:57 PM

Quote Rohit..."And I totally agree with you that Indian students are skilled with CAE without mechanical knowledge".

Rohit, this underlines why FSAE was started all those years ago. The Society of Auto Engineers was concerned that Universities were turning out young engineers with impressive theoretical knowledge but no practical skills.

In the words of Carroll Smith, they "Could calculate all the stresses and strains in a threaded fastener, but don't know which way to turn the wrench"!

This is most certainly the case with Indian Universities and that is the problem we are all trying to address.

The effect of FSAE in Industry is vast! Many companies will not hire a new graduate engineer unless they can demonstrate involvement with FSAE or Formula Student, regardless of that students GPA! They understand the value of skills versus theory!

They value the experience the student has in meeting deadlines and expressing his thoughts to other engineers, both in writing (the Design Report) and orally (defending the design before the judges).

They like that they understand the importance of working to a finite budget (Cost) and can present their ideas in a non technical format (Presentation).

I have had companies tell me that before FSAE they would hire a graduate and then spend three years teaching them to be a corporate engineer. After FSAE they come 'ready to go'!

The idea is that FSAE is a little slice of reality, educating those students in how stuff happens in the real world, which is a long way from academia!

At most Western events the industry Headhunters are out in force. One year in Germany, Toyota brought a Formula One car to display. On the end wall of the trailer were 9 pages of positions vacant! FS Austria is actually sponsored my a recruitment company and at FSAE Michigan last year, the Space Exploration company SpaceEx, had three HR specialists in attendance recruiting!

The possibilities offered by FSAE/FS are endless, but I bet, when the HR people saw the poor quality Indian efforts, they did not hand out too many business cards!

Guys, what we are trying to achieve here is IMPORTANT! Not so much for guys like Claude and I but for YOU!!! You are the future, us old farts will hand on responsibility for things and we need to know you can handle it!

Pat

Big Bird

05-30-2012, 11:22 PM

I watch this thread religiously, as I desperately, desperately, DESPERATELY want to see an Indian team do well in this comp. I know you guys can do it.

I don't have time to write the full response I want to, but I will say this. I have limited time to answer individual questions via email or PM, and pretty well every half-intelligent thought I've had about FSAE is contained in my "Reasoning..." thread stickied at the top of the page. But come to the Oz comp and there will be any number of people here who can offer good, sensible advice to help you through. Just make sure you spend enough time here to make use of it (i.e. don't show up with a half finished car the day before the event), and please - LISTEN to the advice given.

Note - you will need an FSAE car - not a SUPRA.

Cheers to Claude, Ed, Pat and everyone for an earnest, constructive discussion above

ftorque

05-31-2012, 12:05 AM

Thanks Claude and Pat for some really good advice.
I am a student of the people responsible for organizing SUPRASAE and will surely pass-on the international concern about SUPRASAE standards as a whole to the organizers.
But i strongly disagree that SUPRASAE is a mistake or it should be banned. We learn from our mistakes and will rectify it in coming years. If us Indian students themselves feel wrong about our home event, then SUPRASAE might not have a bright future. Rather than we should be committed in taking it to the international standards, for which i am trying my best as i am working closely with the organizers.
I kindly request you to give some more suggestion for SUPRASAE, so it could be shared among the organizers, when we have a meeting schedule in July.
And Pat Class 2 event for FSUK still exist and allows teams to just give design, cost, business., etc presentation.
My team is competing for the same event this year in July. We want to get a better picture of the static events before going out to build a car for next year.
And Claude i know the 'Dirty Car' excuse was a bad one. But just couldn't think of a better one at that moment. Regarding the money matters, there is a lot of sponsorship available in the Indian market but the scenario is mostly the top universities bag it.
So leaving out major portion of the teams in SUPRASAE.
And there are many motorsports league competitions coming up this year at the Chennai and Delhi track, which calls in the big automotive giants to pitch in.
So the future is bright for Motorsports but it will take time and dedication and some more reasoning http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif with you all to get there.

ed_pratt

05-31-2012, 01:59 AM

I'm just glad that something constructive has/ is being taken from this.

As Claude says, the money IS there! and more importantly, the HELP/ADVICE is there.

Yes, you need money to get through the project but I think our team has received substantially more useful "aid" in advice than in monetary donations. There are plenty of people who are more than willing to answer a question with a little thought behind it - Pat, Claude and Geoff (Big Bird) are full testament to that.

I'm happy to answer what I can too - I have a huge wealth of experience of making every mistake in the book regarding project management and team leadership!

Claude - I will be at the UK event but I'm actually trying to organise to be at the OptimumG seminar afterwards so maybe I'll see you then!

Cheers
Ed

Zac

05-31-2012, 05:38 AM

The effect of FSAE in Industry is vast! Many companies will not hire a new graduate engineer unless they can demonstrate involvement with FSAE or Formula Student, regardless of that students GPA! They understand the value of skills versus theory!

Just to echo this point, the company I currently work for recruits pretty heavily at FSAE events. Our HR department sent out a chart yesterday showing that over a third of all the Co-ops we brought in this summer have FSAE experience. That's impressive considering that over half of the total figure are material development types (material science, chemical engineering, etc.) and wouldn't likely be involved in FSAE.

06-03-2012, 05:36 AM

To all Indian FSAEers,

1. Indian FSAE teams lack self-esteem.

2. To develop self-esteem the teams resolve to build a "kickass, super-sophisticated, mini-F1 car, with turbos, and carbonfibre, and optimised everything......".

3. For reasons explained many times by many people on this Forum, the above does not work, and their car is a disaster.

4. So Indian FSAE teams lack more self-esteem. The downward spiral enters another loop.....
~~~o0o~~~

To escape this downward spiral, read the many posts advising you to KEEP IT SIMPLE (eg. Geoff's "Reasoning..." thread, Kevin's post above, etc...), and FOLLOW THEM.

DO NOT build a "mini-F1" car. Instead, think "upsized go-kart". Finish the car as early as possible, and spend most of your time developing it and training your drivers. Concentrate on reliability first, corner speed second. At competition, finish all events.

Repeat next year, but SIMPLER. The self-esteem will arrive with each monsoon. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Z

Claude Rouelle

06-04-2012, 03:50 PM

To Angry Indian,

I like your the comments you posted on April 29th. Did not find the time to answer earlier, sorry. Seems to me as a good analysis of Indian FSAE / FS cars poor quality. I see reason #5 (Indian education system) as the probable major cause. At a conference in Pune a few years ago I said publicly that the Indian companies had to start hiring on skills, not on grade (that is what FS / FSAE is about: acquiring skills through experience; learning by doing) Most of the audience applauded but I could see a few PhD teachers not smiling at all...

I think the changes are at least as political as they are cultural. If India WANTS it, you can have decent cars in FS/ FSAE withing 5 years and the skills acquired will get implemented in the Indian automotive industry. You need the support of the Indian automotive industry itself, a few good Indian automotive engineers (they do exist; I met a few of them and they were very impressive), the Indian education system, time to time advice from outside India teachers who want you ot progress, who do not want you to remain just the cheap labor country ....and avoid at all cost any tentative of corruption.

If not... well Europeans, Americans and other Asians will keep designing cars that you will manufacture and assemble. India will remain the workshop of the world. It more your choice than any others.

Remember; nothing is written.

Last notes:

1. "A majority of middle and upper class youngsters know much more about American sitcoms" Belgian sitcom are way better; you should try! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

2. Indian food is good; I mean real Indian food (although big time spicy http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif), not the one from most US or European Indian restaurants; nothing to do with authentic Indian food. Please don't get addicted to McDos!

Claude

Rex Chan

06-06-2012, 07:48 AM

I just watched that video - I am very bad at judging speeds on video, esp with no sound. But, they didn't look that fast, on a VERY fast FSAE track.

In another life, I would have the time/money to go visit and be involved with an Indian team to see why it is they are currently so bad (I'm glad people like Pat, Claude, etc agree that all/most current Indian cars are not good - means I can say it too without offending anyone extra).

Pat: while I agree that any/many FSAE-A teams go a lot faster than any Indian car I've seen (real life or YouTube), there still remains a LOT of potential for FSAE cars to be better. From what I've seen in Australia, there is a massive GULF in what occurs in FSAE and what I think goes on in any professional motorsports. Our winning teams are a lot closer to failure (i.e. not finishing/posting a time/points) than in the "real world".

Just my feeling, and it's ok, cos we're ugrad engineers. But it's something to aim for.

Jon Burford

06-07-2012, 12:26 AM

Just going back to that video, if we are talking about safety in FSAE events, Why aren't HANS devices in the rules?
the second I read about the Dundee crash I thought it would be mandatory this year.
I know you could say that an accident like that could never happen at an FSAE event but FSUK's enduro track ran through a gap in the pit lane wall last year...

Claude Rouelle

06-07-2012, 07:59 AM

Hans device or not, the Dundee crash (for I know of it) proves exactly my point; you can't run these car in a unprofessional and unsafe manner, whether you speak about the car itself, the speed it reaches, the driver skills, the organization, the circuit and the safety crew. Seems there was very little of that in Dundee.

I will repeat it again and again: FSAE and Formula Student is not racing: it is an engineering concept, design, manufacturing, manufacture-ability, testing and development, cost competition based on race cars. And it is also about camaraderie. It is a learn-by- doing competition. But it is not racing. You do not need the cars doing 100 km/h in a corner to demonstrate students engineering skills!

As this part of the forum is about team from India, I have to say that many Indian teams fall in the trap of glamour and ego, thinking about Formula Student as mini F1. It is not. If they think of FS / FSAE as mini race cars they get it wrong and they probably will sell the wrong ideas to their university dean, faculty advisers, their student colleagues and their existing and potential sponsors.

FSAE / FS is the pursuit of engineering excellence; it is about putting students hands, brain and team spirit at work in order to develop professional and human skills for the industry. If you think picture FSAE / FS as shinny cars, macho sweating driver spraying champagne and cute girls on the podium on the newspaper pictures, think again! It is hard and smart work day and night: that is what this competition is about.

All that being said using the HANS device would be a very good idea.

Claude

ftorque

06-07-2012, 09:39 AM

Nicely said Claude. Hope a lot of Indian teams read this post.
And can you give me some tips on my last minute preparation for Class 2 FS, UK event in July?
On what the judges are expecting from my team?

Jon Burford

06-07-2012, 10:32 AM

@Claude,
Make it a rule then!

@ftorque
Go to your team mate, point at something and ask him why it is like it is. If he cannot answer you then you have a problem.
You must be able to justify your decision, even if it's wrong!!!!
And don't use rod end bearings outboard, they are the Anti-Christ of FSAE events!

Claude Rouelle

06-07-2012, 09:57 PM

To ftorque,

I am not familiar of UK Class 2 and for the little I know of it I m not a big fan of Class 2: if you want to build a car just build it, make your own mistake and do it better next year. There is no better way to learn how to design, manufacture, assemble, test and develop car than by designing it, manufacturing it, assembling it, testing and developing it.

Besides there is no such thing as tips for last minute preparation: there is only long term planning and day by day execution.

As for judges they are expecting clear definition of your design choices with good arguments. I guess it is not too late if these have not yet been well defined.

There are no good or bad choices (wings or no wings, 1 or 2 or 4 cylinders, carbon composite or tubular chassis etc...) but there are always good or not so good arguments to defend your design choices.

Good luck:. See you in Silverstone.

Claude

Big Bird

06-08-2012, 01:50 AM

Class 2. Ugh. Facepalm.

The key learning outcome of a successful (or even an unsuccessful) FSAE/FStudent project is that the participants learn the value of balancing what they want with what they can do. If you don’t have to consider the latter, then you might as well just curl up inside your computer fantasy world.

Class 2 as I see it is an exercise in dreaming, with lazier timelines and pliable deliverables. It is desk-bound, mouse-driven wishlist engineering with no real penalty if you don’t get stuff done.

In my mind, entering Class 2 will teach you as much about successful engineering as what surfing RSVP.com will teach you about successful relationships. Sure, you can check the right boxes and “design” in your own fantasy la-la land the perfect partner with all the features you want. And sure, you might even write a good report about it. It doesn’t mean that such an animal really exists.

And even if somewhere on this planet there is a funny university educated 6ft busty athletic blonde Japanese gourmet chef peace activist supermodel with masters degrees in philosophy and shiatsu massage and who likes drinking beer, restoring 1960’s F1 cars, TIG welding and just being friends with benefits..... well, chances are that while you have been living inside your computer, they’ll have already been won over by some schmuck who has honed his charms out there talking to real girls.

Good grief, if you don’t have the resources to date Nicole Scherzinger, then date someone you can afford and see it through. You’ll probably find they are lovely in their own right, and you might even find they’re the one. It is better than making some half-baked attempt buying gifts for Nicole Scherzinger, stopping when you run out of time and/or money, then writing a report about it.

You’ll never learn how to talk to girls if you never talk to a girl.
You’ll never learn how to build cars if you never build a car.
Just give it a go.

Sorry, that got a bit off-topic. Now, Formula Supra. Deep breath....

Bemo

06-08-2012, 02:27 AM

I couldn't agree more with Claude and Geoff here. FSAE is about designing, manufacturing, testing and braking stuff. You don't learn anything by designing parts which never have to prove, they really work.
I also don't get why they have spec engines at the Indian Supra SAE. At least it should be possible to modify the engines within a reasonable rules set.

There are so many brilliant and experienced people like Pat and Claude (and many others) around in FS/FSAE who are willing to share their knowledge and to spend their time telling teams what they did wrong and where they have to improve to do better the next year. But you can't blame these people if they get frustrated when they see that teams they talked to a lot show up making the same mistakes again and again.

I experienced that myself. Back in 08 there was an Indian team participating in Italy (Formula Manipal). It was the very first competition for them and considering that their car was pretty OK compared to the usual performance of Indian teams. We helped them getting through scrutineering and in the end they were at least able to take part in AutoX and got to finish almost half of Endurance.
We talked a lot with them during the event, shared our E-Mail adresses and answered an endless amounts of questions we got during the following year. Then we met them again 09 in Silverstone and somehow they managed to have a car which was a huge step back compared to their first car. In that moment you get the feeling that you've just wasted a lot of time as nobody listened to what you said.
I don't want to sound arrogant, but at the time we were the most succesful FSAE team in the world so you would think people from unexperienced teams are glad for any advice...

M. Nader

06-08-2012, 04:25 AM

Originally posted by Big Bird:

Good grief, if you don’t have the resources to date Nicole Scherzinger, then date someone you can afford and see it through. You’ll probably find they are lovely in their own right, and you might even find they’re the one. It is better than making some half-baked attempt buying gifts for Nicole Scherzinger, stopping when you run out of time and/or money, then writing a report about it.

I think this is nearly the best thing i have read around here. Solid example. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I don't however think of class 2 as a bad situation or not even perfect. on the contrary Class2 if done right may even be more useful than class 1.

Let me elaborate:

Just to start I am strictly against going to FSAE or FS (even though we are a first year team)with just design and work on paper, this is just as useful as the school projects you have been doing over the past several years, We entered FSAE to do something different not to do another school project. so be it Class 1 or Class 2 YOU HAVE TO BUILD SOMETHING and that is the whole point of the event, contrary to common belief Class 2 is not a "design class" but more a "incomplete car" event where teams show what they can do and hoped to do but couldn't for either lack of resources and whatnot.

In class 1 teams normally focus on what they know they can do and do it, very rarely do extra innovations come through but more development and refining than full on evolution. so the whole process is a development process with some minor innovations.

In class 2 however you get a clean slate, a chance to do and test whatever it is that you want but couldn't do in class 1 due to the many things you must do you usually do things not to the best you can because of time/resource and other constraints.

There was a time when our resources this year were so low that we had to consider Class 2 and i had to fight the common belief that it is s "design event" and i wouldn't do that and tried to convince everyone that this is just not the way to go and in the process i developed a plan to do and make it a "R&D development" event and not a CAD exercise. I thought of nearly hundreds of things to do and test and verify for example: effect of plenum changes to engine curves, Brake temperature and cooling effects, suspension force reaction, controlled suspension parameters (a mini active suspension you can call it), chassis testing and compliance,,,etc. the list just goes on. and in no way of that did it cross my mind to just settle for a drawing or a report it is just not a learning process, the biggest challenge there is is to see the transformation of drawings to real world, how close they are and how to correlate to that then test and see the changes that would be too difficult to model right in front of your eyes then think of ways to justify that scientifically but first get the "hands-on" experience you lack severely during the college life.

fortunately/unfortunately for us our situation improved and we were able to get into Class 1 and now face the constant battle of time to finish the car and are settling for things just to start working together.

and Regarding learning, this forum over the past 2 years has been the best thing there is to learn from the experience of others and not be stupid enough to do the same mistake twice (but you will do some other mistake twice i assure you of that). Always take time to listen to what some like Pat Clarke, Bill Cobb, Claude, Millikens and senior teams who have had the time, knowledge to do things more/better than you did, it is the best way to learn other than making the mistake yourself.

Now that was one long post am gonna have to lie down after that http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jon Burford

06-08-2012, 04:51 AM

And even if somewhere on this planet there is a funny university educated 6ft busty athletic blonde Japanese gourmet chef peace activist supermodel with masters degrees in philosophy and shiatsu massage and who likes drinking beer, restoring 1960’s F1 cars, TIG welding and just being friends with benefits.....

Superb!

Big Bird

06-08-2012, 12:21 PM

Hi Bemo,

Unfortunately I have a similar story with a team that I offered some assistance to a while back. Utterly lovely guys, asked a lot of sensible and informed questions, listened carefully to the answers, spruiked the merits of multi-year plans and simplicity and designing within the constraints of available resources. Their car was rough but simple and honest in intent. It was barely half finished when they arrived at the comp, but with a lot of help from others and with some "relaxing" of scrutineering rules they were allowed on track for a run at the end of Endurance. Everyone cheered for them, they cut some slow laps, and we all thought that these guys would be back the next year with a genuine chance of completing a full FSAE competition. I was in contact again a few months later and asked how they were progressing. The response was along the lines that weren't coming back as they had now "done" FSAE, it was time to move on to bigger challenges and they were going to build a Formula Hybrid.

Insert double facepalm here...

Big Bird

06-08-2012, 01:35 PM

Now, back to Supra.

I hate to say it, but from what I have seen in that video, that comp is a disaster waiting to happen. Poor-handling structurally questionable student-built open-wheeled cars raced wheel-to-wheel by inexperienced drivers at high speed on a track lined with spectators and with no functional marshalling. As a university study into voluntary means of reversing global overpopulation its a stroke of brilliance. (On that note, I know of a Thai uni already doing good work in this field using an excavator bucket. There is a nice opportunity for collaboration there, and you could sell the viewing rights to Crusty Demons). But if the intent is engineering education, then there is a bit of a problem.

Jokes aside, it seriously concerns me when I see cars jigging and swerving all over the place as they enter a chicane, whilst the flag guy is standing on the track right where a spinning car would slide with his back turned to the action chatting over the fence. Good grief.

No-one will take this competition or its competitors seriously while it continues to stand apart from the rest of the world in terms of its intent, regulations and participant safety. Sorry to be blunt.

Claude Rouelle

06-10-2012, 08:06 PM

Maybe life, death and safety means something different in India....

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06....html?pagewanted=all (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/08/world/asia/08iht-roads.html?pagewanted=all)

TMichaels

06-10-2012, 10:39 PM

It seems to me that the Indian Government is refusing to apply common sense in the same way that some of the Indian FS teams do. Coincidence?
You do what you were taught to do...

Mustafa

06-11-2012, 02:08 PM

Everyone in India is an expert at what ails this country, because it is never our fault. Like the last line in the NYT article, its never our responsibility. We spend more time coming up with excuses than doing work. Excuses just serve to justify a mistake.

Nevertheless there is a massive clash of cultures unfolding every day. We manage to overcome the religious and language hurdles admirably. Society has deep divisions between people from different income groups; poor people pour into cities in search of jobs. Education in India is a fundamental right, but only the 'middle class' ever get access to good education (even that does not guarantee good road manners, sigh).

There is hardly any respect for hands on jobs, mechanics, welders and machinists are almost always people who will happily push pencils if only they had the education. So the precious few skilled ones are retained in industry leaving polytechnics and universities with a shortage of technical staff. And the students don't learn the first thing about workshop etiquette, safety or tolerances (Most don't know what a press fit bearing is even after a 4 year undergrad course in Automobile Engg)

But it's always getting better, just recently Bangalore Traffic Police decided to enforce lane discipline http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.thehindu.com/todays...a/article3491778.ece (http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-karnataka/article3491778.ece)

Always darkest before the dawn.

AngryIndian

06-11-2012, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by Claude Rouelle:
Maybe life, death and safety means something different in India....

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06....html?pagewanted=all (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/08/world/asia/08iht-roads.html?pagewanted=all)

Many Indian roads, especially in North India are notorious for accidents. That's because our government doesn't care about road safety. Maybe next time when you organize a seminar in India you can ask the participants how many of them wear helmets or seat belts while riding bikes/cars. You will be surprised at the results. Well, maybe not.

Claude Rouelle

06-11-2012, 09:07 PM

AngryIndian,

Not sure I want to give seminar again in India as any of the advise I gave do not seem to be taken into account.

I know that most Indian do not wear helmet. I have seen it. DO YOU? Do YOU care?

If your government do not care about safety or its people life, at least you may want to show people in India and in FS competitions that you care about making safe and reliable FS cars.

That would be YOUR first contribution.

Claude

Claude Rouelle

06-11-2012, 09:14 PM

To Bemo,

Yep I remember…..

In fact I had a similar issue in 2009 and 2010 with an Indian university car you knew well. In 2009 I saw a “decent” Indian car (everything is relative) in FS Silverstone. I was at least amazed by the students enthusiasm, their desire to do well and the curiosity in their questions; ”how can we learn better, what book do you advice, how do we do this or that” that I wonder how their education and project was supported so I asked “Where is your faculty advisor?” The answer was “He is in London shopping with his wife!” Could not believe it.

Anyway, I gave them a lot of time and advices then in the following months spent hours and hours (free of charge) answering their question by email, then gave a 5 days seminar in Pune where I also gave answered the same team many questions and gave away Excel spreadsheet, power point documents references, and simple methodologies on car design. They seemed to get it and so I hoped to see a good car from this university in the 2010 FS Austria competition.

The car was worse! WORSE!!!! WAY WORSE. My heart stopped, my jaws dropped, I stop believe there was no Indian racing God that day. I felt sad, discouraged, literally insulted, and philosophically negated. They made me feel so un-useful. Look like I had been speaking and advising for nothing, nothing. I gave my time, my brain, my heart my spirit and, seriously, a part of my soul for these guys. Completely in vain. In my mind India became the lost continent that day.

Steve Fox and Pat Clarke (with the help of other students) went way beyond their design judge duties to help this Indian student starting their engine and setup their suspension. Obviously the car has never been tested: why in the hell do you come from so far way with a car which makes everybody feel bad; no winner and all losers here; the team, the competition level, their competitors whose feelings were shared between compassion, pity and embarrassment.

That is what the difference between an error and a mistake is. Error can happen (in the US we say that s**t happens) but mistakes happen when you know that there is an error and you do not make anything to correct it. That car and that team were a mistake. Sorry but there is any other way to call it. As you can see I am still angry.

When I left the paddock that Saturday night in Austria the team had not passed the brake test yet. Again; why coming from so far away and pay for so many students’ flights with a car which did not brake?

When I came back Sunday morning the first students I saw in the paddock were from this team.
I asked ”How are things?”
Their answer was “better”
So I said: ”OK so you will be participating to the endurance event?”
Answer: “ No, not yet”.
Me: “What do you mean”
Them “Well, Sir (there is always a “sir” and most of the time it announces bad news) the car does brake better: it now looks 3 wheels but not 4 yet”
I was killed a second time “Come guys you live in a digital world; either you pass the test or you don’t”

That day I understood that the notion of success and excellence was different in India.

Because I am still a believer I have change my mind and still hope to see “decent” and reliable Indian Formula student cars one day. But I have lean to manage my intellectual and emotional expectations.

Claude

Claude Rouelle

06-11-2012, 10:14 PM

To Mustafa and Indian students

I remember having a breakfast in Pune on January 26th (Republic day) 5 years ago. Because it is a day off we had time and the breakfast went from 8 AM to 1 PM (!) and my Indian hosts were very generous with their time and answered every question I could think of on Indian economics, religious, politics, food, cast, habits, industrialization, environment, Indian people needs, fear and hopes. I did fall in love with India that day and have loved to travel in many places in India since..

I found India fascinating. I also found that Indian could teach some of their values to Americans and Europeans. In one of his comedy show, Robin William mimics a journalist asking Gandhi: "what do you think about Western civilization?" to which Gandhi answered "it would be a good idea" http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Love it, love it!)

Then as I traveled and work in India I learnt less pleasant things:

- Price negotiation (I should say bargaining) is a national sport.

- Indians like to argue about every cent instead of focusing on product quality. Price negotiation is more a way to interact and know each other than just obtaining low price.

- The pride of a family is for their son (for the girls that will be not so easy) to have a diploma (the "paper") so that they can tell their friends and family how proud they are. Whether the son is productive and his work makes a difference is secondary.

- Ideally the son should work in a Bangalore type software industry which has 50 % better pay and better considered than any automotive industry engineer job. Automotive industry is a bit too blue collar not white collar enough.

- Many Indians students think they lower themselves if they work with their own hands on a car; they are mechanics like, not engineers like! Great! So no wonder they only have theoretical knowledge and top down, often arrogant, management.

- In India if after you bachelor degree you can't find a job you make a master.

- If after you master degree you can't find a job you make a PhD.

- If after you PhD degree you still can't find a job... you can become a teacher. So in most of the case the whole system is dumb down.

- As a teacher you do not have real pressure to increase contract with the industry of write papers as in US or Europe. You are just somebody between the normal people and the Gods. Being a teacher is "being" a teacher, not necessarily accomplishing something. You just can go to the class, READ the course and do not allow questions. Please note that there are exceptions to this; I met a few teachers for example at IIT Mumbai who were extremely bright, devoted to their students and their country. But... they either studied abroad and/or had already traveled enough to know the strengths and the weaknesses of their education system as well as the challenges that their country faces.

- Whatever students or faculty say about this, girls do not have the same opportunity than boys on education.

- Educators (like my company) are associated to gurus and India gurus are a bit of wise man and a bit of beggars. Like monks they are barely paid so I often felt that despite the really low price we offer (last seminar in Pune was 150$ per student for a 5 days seminar!!! / but I will never do it again it for that cheap) Indian associate us to monks and often think they should get everything for nothing from us. Very frustrating.

- Indian automotive industry engineers are unreasonably demanding on consulting and software features and price so we spend the first 70 % of time on arguing on that but at the end we come back to the original proposal.

- I have learnt that the only way you can do business in India is to say that is my price and if they do not want it you just walk away. Move on; they are other customers in the world with who you can have intelligent arguments on software improvements more than about a 2 cents price difference.

- If the engineers like your product and even your price the game is not won yet; you need to meet the decision maker; most of the time the company VP or so. That is where the tentative of corruption could start. I hate it. In my opinion there are 3 rules / questions you have to ask yourself when you do business anywhere; 1) Is it legal? 2) Is it fair? 3) Does it fit the golden rule (do not do to others what you do not want the others to do to you)? Or is it a win-win situation? Most of the time, I have had a “no” to at least 1 or the 3 questions so I walked away.

- Corruption is the #1 plague in the country. That is why such a high potential nation is losing ground not only to China but also much smaller countries like South Korea, Brazil or Indonesia (not that these guys or US or European are necessarily perfect in their business ethics)

- Indian students cheat like hell on copyright especially software and are not even afraid to exhibit in their school project or thesis runs of software they did not pay for. Then they wonder why the software company does not even want to speak to them.

- Indians are VERY welcoming people. Really. Hospitality is in their genes. But do not have an argument with them (as I said, tell them your price; if they do not like it just walk away) otherwise things could go sour. And they can become really nasty and aggressive. I have observed business or street arguments where the voices volume and the language speed suddenly increase. In the street, as I observe after minor car crashes, it really can become bloody. Literally.

- If you casually meet the same unsuccessful business people a few years later and you attempt to understand what happened, there is no chance. Indians brush it under the carpet. "We do not discuss that" No career for psychologists of mental therapists in India.

- The scariest thing in India is to be in a bus where the driver believes in reincarnation. Funny but true. There are 138.000 people who die on the road every year. That is 15 human being every hour. Mothers do cry if they lose a child as any normal people do but they still do sit in and drive cars with no lights, no brakes (no brakes light either) in the middle of the night unlike most of “normal” people. Death seems to have the same value in India. But not life.

- It takes time to have REAL friends in India. But when you have a Indian friend it is a real one. The one you probably can count on for life. And vice versa.

India is a country which lives in 2 different centuries. What we and they need to do is to focus on the best of each century they live in and for Indian to adapt quickly to industrial world expectations. Unless, once again, they want to remain the workshop of the world.

OK.. why am I writing about this in a FSAE forum?... Because the world is one and everything is interconnected. I appreciate Mustafa to give his views on his country. If it doesn't solve problem, at least it helps to better understand Indian students’ challenges. Giving my perspectives (right or wrong, you will decide) will help too. Hopefully.

But if this will make other students and design judges being understanding and kind to Indian Formula Students participants, it will not lower my expectations of future Indian FSAE / FS performance, students’ knowledge, car rule and safety compliance, design and execution quality, performance and reliability. At the contrary.

One or two more specific comments about Indian FS / FSAE participants; while I interact as a design judge with Indian students at FS / FSAE competitions they often call me or other design judges “Sir” and use the word “Sir” 2 to 3 times in very sentence. “Well, Sir, you see, Sir, the front roll center is, Sir, 37 mm above the ground, Sir”. What Indians do not seem to understand is that most often Western guys will find that suspicious or even hypocritical; too good to be true; they must hide something.

I told them my name was Claude but they did not want to hear it. They say calling me "sir" it is a mark of respect! THEY REALLY DON”T GET IT: THE BEST MARK OF RESPECT THEY CAN GIVE TO ME AND OTHER JUDGES IS TO RESPECT THEMSELVES BY PRESENTING A WELL DESIGNED AND WELL EXECUTED CAR, pass tech without any issues and finish each dynamic event. Then, maybe, I will call them “Sir”!

I realized that most FS Indian team members never particularly look for engineering answers or methodologies or success; in fact they look for engagement, interaction, and recognition, feeding their pride from judges at the moment they speak to them and from their countrymen when they come back to India. Even if they had miserable results, they can BS how bad they were: their Indian friends have little idea of the competition level anyway. That is why there is no long term improvement cars improvement and Indian cars are most often even worse than the previous year; they do not care, they do not have enough self esteem, their pride is not focused on the right goals and they do not have enough global vision of what engineering excellence is.

Unfortunately Indian FS team attitude is the wrong one: these FSAE / FS competition are not about judges or judges’ opinions about them or about their cars. It is about the students, their opportunity to learn, their future, the future of their universities and the future of their country. On a time scale, students will have much more opportunity than judges to contribute to a better world. It saddens me to see them not using that time.

If only one day a Indian team could prove me wrong....

Claude

ftorque

06-11-2012, 11:57 PM

That left me speechless Claude.
How long was your stay in India to come up with all that. Seeing that it was a 5-day seminar you got it all bang on target.
And about that 'Sir' thing. We are taught to and made to say it since the day we start schooling.
So its embedded in us. It ain't going away.

TMichaels

06-12-2012, 12:42 AM

I totally agree about the 'Sir' thing. I talked to a RedShirt at FSG2010 and asked him, to finish a given task. He called me Sir all the time. I told him to stop it, but he wouldn't. Anyway, he told me that he understood the task, but in fact he did not. So he left without being able to finish the task, while I was assuming he will finish it.

Being honest, if you did not understand something, is way more respectful than saying you did and than fail. In fact, in that context, being called 'Sir' and nodded at feels rather disrespectful than respectful.

Nishant Jain

06-12-2012, 12:48 AM

Hello Claude,

I could give a bunch of reasons to explain how Indian universities make it near IMPOSSIBLE for their students to make a successful car, and they would be entirely true as well. But I think you already capture the OTHER BIG PROBLEM plaguing pretty much all Indian teams, when you say:

"there is no long term improvement cars improvement and Indian cars are most often even worse than the previous year; they do not care, they do not have enough self esteem, their pride is not focused on the right goals and they do not have enough global vision of what engineering excellence is."

Sad as that is, it is often true. Whether that comes out of not having a global vision of engineering excellence or whether that's a separate point, I can't say. But I also dream of a day when there is a genuinely good Indian FSAE car.

Nishant Jain.
Ex-FSAE team member from India.

AngryIndian

06-13-2012, 08:59 AM

Maybe we should change the name of this forum from "Teams from India" to "Let's all get together and bash India" http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Claude- Most of what you said is correct, but there was no need to put this here. Now I will go to Belgium and make a list of "less pleasant things" about it http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
And then I will post it on a thread titled "Teams from Belgium". Oh wait..are there any teams from Belgium?

It is very easy for others to criticize Indian FSAE teams but you guys frankly have no idea about the problems we face. I am ready to bet that if GFR, stuttgart or delft guys worked in an indian team a majority of them will quit or lose hope within 6 months.

And now everyone will think that I whine too much.

Nishant Jain

06-13-2012, 09:18 AM

@AngryIndian:

I was in the Indian FSAE team at the time Claude Rouelle met us the first time. I passed out the next year, however, and am now at TU Delft (not in FSAE anymore though). I would wager confidently on any European team not lasting very long in the Indian college environment, but frankly that requires a different skill set than that what any true engineer needs to or should have.

Speaking about Claude's comments, it's the truth he says. He is speaking about the team that succeeded me, so it hurts me personally as well that they weren't upto his expectations. The truth hurts, but you gotta hear it.

@Claude: All your criticisms of my team, and of Indian teams, are correct and should be kept in mind. But some of those lines you said about India, and NOT Indian FSAE teams, were unnecessary.

Having stayed in Belgium for some time, I can speak about how inconvenient and antiquated the Belgian train network is w.r.t the rest of Europe. I am sure none of those facts would paint any picture, good or bad, of Belgian FSAE teams. If I sound rude here, then I apologise, this is (slightly delayed) defensive patriotism coming to the fore.

BrendonD

06-13-2012, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by AngryIndian:
Maybe we should change the name of this forum from "Teams from India" to "Let's all get together and bash India" http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Claude- Most of what you said is correct, but there was no need to put this here. Now I will go to Belgium and make a list of "less pleasant things" about it http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It is very easy for others to criticize Indian FSAE teams but you guys frankly have no idea about the problems we face. I am ready to bet that if GFR, stuttgart or delft guys worked in an indian team a majority of them will quit or lose hope within 6 months.

I don't think that was meant to be taken personally or as an insult, they were just observations based on personal experiences. As always, your mileage may vary.

The underlying issue was summed up towards the end: no vision of engineering excellence in India. There is no desire from leadership and people who run major institutions to compete on the global scale, and the amount of organization change required to combat that is absolutely staggering.

The only feasible solution at this point to improve the state of things is that it must come "from the bottom". That means young people like us working through problems, finding solutions to them, operating on a team-based environment, acknowledging that we will one day operate in a global market, establishing goals and working towards them, and sharing knowledge for the pursuit of the greater good. If what I've described sounds a bit like Formula SAE, you may be on to something.

The desired outcome in this scenario is that Formula SAE produce engineers who are not only aware of what needs to be changed in India in order to make it a successful country in the next 50 years, but also to produce engineers who are capable of implementing those changes and adding value to their country, and by extension the entire world. Where the frustration lies is that right now it doesn't seem to be working and despite many peoples' best efforts, students are still only trying to be "successful" within a broken and corrupt system. This is what upsets people like Claude.

On the flipside, if you've been told / influenced by your family, friends, elders, etc... for 18 years that you have to do A, B, and C to be successful, and lord help you if you don't succeed at that, and some old white guy you've never heard of (no offense intended to Claude/Pat/etc...) comes along and tells you that you're doing X, Y, and Z terribly, not even mentioning A, B, and C... you may have a predisposition to ignore the old white guy.

I'm not saying there's an easy solution, I'm acknowledging that the problem is massive, and change will take time, but it must start somewhere and a well-executed FSAE project is an excellent foundation.

Best of luck.