About 2007 CBR600rr....

[taebyoung]

Hi, I`m from KAIST in,South Korea

Our K-Alpha team is preparing FSAE competition.

However, it is hard to get a 2007 CBR600rr CAD files.

Could I get anyone to send us 2007 CBR600rr?

[taebyoung]

Hi, I`m from KAIST in,South Korea

Our K-Alpha team is preparing FSAE competition.

However, it is hard to get a 2007 CBR600rr CAD files.

Could I get anyone to send us 2007 CBR600rr?

[Grant Mahler]

HERE (http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/125607348/m/72110779141) is the information you seem to be missing.

[Aaron@Kaist]

what good is the search function without data?
if your gonna be a use the search function basher, I suggest you use it first.

Plus all you international team haters, I understand it feels like 2nd rate teams and countries are encroaching on your territory, but cut us some slack. We operate under far more handicapped situations compared to you guys. For example, we at KAIST pay nearly 40% more for items imported from the states, and there is not one autoclave in South Korea. Of course our technical know how and skill is going to substandard. If you guys take the time to help us out, it'll benefit the FSAE program by becoming a bit more international, a bit more prestigious, and it will benefit everyone in the long run. This is sort of in response to someone's post claiming that more international teams will mean there will be more posts that say "engineer this for me"...to be honest, if your team was a first year team, and you had no history or school seniors/professors to help you, I doubt you would be in a better situation, asking different questions...just MY 2 cents...sorry if I offended anyone. 2009 west WOOHOO!!

[Davo]

If you have a look at the top of the 'Open FSAE Discussion' section there's a thread that's permanently the 4th from the top. It's got a CAD model library that been set up where people can put models and there's a CBR600rr model in there.

It doesn't say what year it is but there shouldn't be too many major differences. Also you shouldn't take a model that someone else made as perfect anyway.

I'm assuming you're going to use it for initial packaging since you don't have an engine to make your own model off and for that it would probably be fine. Once you do get the engine there's nothing stopping you from making up your own model that you know is right.

[Grant Mahler]

Aaron.

Northwestern is a competing for the first time. Our team is in exactly the same situation yours is. As are a dozen other teams around the world.

I'm not an international team hater - I've lived in France and spent significant amounts of time in England, Germany, Czech Republic, Holland, Mexico and Spain. I speak 3 languages. Every country I've been to has good things and bad things, and I believe every university is the same. I did not make any sweeping generalizations about your country, your university, or international teams in general.

I believe every team has a hard time getting to competition, and that no one has it any harder than anyone else. Every team has issues - yours are no easier or worse than any others. This same subject was brought up in the thread dedicated to Indian teams, and I agree with the statements Pat Clarke made there. No one here in the US has it easy. No one anywhere else has it easy. I dont feel like 2nd rate teams are encroaching on my territory, I feel like more and more people from around the world (US included) are treating this site as a location to get things done for them. The original poster did not ask "Where would I go about getting dimensions for a 2007 CBR 600RR", to which people might have responded positively. Instead the original poster asked for people on the forum to give them something. How many times in life do people give you something? Is that realistic? Is that how the rest of the car is going to go? Can anyone send you perfect weight distribution numbers? Perfect suspension designs? Perfect tuning?

You think Wisconsin Madison has it easy? They just walk right up and people hand them the trophy? Or Cornell, Texas A&M, UTA, RMIT or any of dozens of other well-respected teams?

For those reasons, I believe requests like this are ridiculous. If you want a model, make it yourself. If you don't have an engine sitting in front of you, make friends with someone who owns a bike, works at a dealership, etc. At the very least, look at the stickied links and use the search function. There are CAD models for nearly every engine ever used in this competition either here on this site or available on the web. And who says you need a CAD model? We went to the dealership, took some measurements, and built the frame long before we had the actual engine in our hands.

I have used the search function. I use it nearly every day. I find it quite useful thank you very much. What were you implying that I needed to search?

This is an engineering competition. Do some.

[Maverik]

Good luck finding the model right off the bat (ie being such a new motor.) Best bet is to pay for an engine scan to produce a part file or surface file you can use. For something like this, it
s awesome to have a highly exact model. If you can't afford it though, take out a tape measurer and start pulling the critical measurements to package.

[Big Bird]

Greetings all,

I haven't had much time to look in on these boards of late, but I see that the same issues are popping up again and again. I've had thoughts of starting some sort of "advice to beginning teams" thread, but each time I've sat down to write my own point of view it started looking like a thesis and I've decided on a cup of tea and a good lie down instead.

Being the true fence-sitter that I am, I'm going to try to thread my argument somewhere between the points of view posted above. And in case any of this seems too critical about the international teams, I can assure you I am no racist and only wish to help avert some of the very problems we faced in our early years. I can also assure you that there are many good people on these forums who want to help the upcoming international teams in any way they can.

Firstly, I am fully aware of the problems faced by many of the beginning international teams, especially when it comes to sourcing components and designing around engines and the like that are not even available in your countries. Adding to this is the problem of designing a style of vehicle that you may never have seen in the flesh before. If you look at the early Australian cars (as Pat Clarke will glady tell you), many were utterly atrocious pieces of work, mainly because we had no idea what this FSAE thing was, we had no idea of scale and so most of the local first year cars were up around the 300-400kg range. It takes time and experience to learn how to design one of these things, and when you are starting in a country maybe a few thousand kilometres away from the nearest comp I can imagine it would be damn hard work.

On the flipside, frustrations on these boards often occur when, despite the abundance of good advice and info on offer, people come along asking questions that seem to show no effort in thinking through their problem. I know this exacerbated when someone comes on here asking questions in their second language - I'm sure if I tried asking a technical question in Japanese it would seem incredibly amateurish to native speakers - so that is something we all need to consider.

There are good CAD models freely available for CBRs, which are plenty good enough to get your initial CAD packaging out of the way before your engine arrives. We had to design around a WR450 before anyone had a CAD model available, and our initial CAD model looked like two cardboard boxes with a few roughly placed holes for the engine mounts (measured from a similar bike in a showroom). It was good enough to get us going. Good engineering is often about making wise judgements about how best to proceed when not all the info is at hand.

Aaron, if I could offer some advice as gently as I can. From your team's posts over the past few weeks I've noticed you are looking at such things as carbon fibre chassis, superchargers, and now the latest and greatest model of CBR. You are then drawing attention to the fact that things are hard in your country because you don't have access to autoclaves, you can't get CBR's, supercharger info is hard to come by. No-one if forcing you into these design decisions, so it you who has to take responsibility for the decisions you are making. Whilst it is admirable that you are so eager, it seems that the sorts of things that you are labouring over are not the sorts of things you should be worried about as a first year team.

Your first goal is to complete a car and complete an event. To do so, you first have to deal with the MUSTS of the project - you must meet timeline, you must meet budget, you must deliver a tested and reliable vehicle, you must meet all the scrutineering and safety regulations, etc. Dealing with all these things requires a solid and practical understanding of the engineering basics - good understanding of load paths, good understanding of metallurgy and materials science, good understanding of manufacturing systems, good understanding of suspension and chassis geometry, good understanding of good testday and raceday systems and processes, etc etc etc.

You can build (and prove) your understanding of motor vehicle theory with a much simpler vehicle than you are planning. I would STRONGLY suggest starting with a steel spaceframe, and whatever engine you can readily obtain within your country. (Hyosung comes to mind in Korea). Prove to your competitors that you can design a stiff and strong vehicle with good load paths, that completes events regularly and reliably, and then start worrying about the fancy stuff.

Good design is not about building fancy stuff, it is about building and delivering the best product that you can WITHIN YOUR GIVEN RESOURCES. Recognize your project constraints, work within them and surprise us all with your practical and pragmatic solution to the FSAE problem.

Cheers all, and apologies for my trademark wordiness

[Aaron@Kaist]

once again thanks for the great advice,
for me the technical issues were not the biggest issue so far, but getting the team together and getting funding and sponsors for our team was the hardest. The MOST difficult part for me was getting all of the students motivated enough to start studying and preparing for this competition on their own, and the first response from our first post from our first recruited member, was go use the search function. Of course we checked if there were CAD models in the library and on the web, but if someone was able to share the model with us, wouldn't that have been the most efficient and effective solution? If that was not the case and we should measure and model everyone on our own, why are there models in the library? It is because there are benefits in sharing such information and I dont think anybody disagrees. I would like to stop and apologize in an attempt to stop this argument, if it can be considered as such, although I think it is constructive, and would also like to say that a little ambition even at a price, is the direction our team will be taking. Thanks so very much and I hope to meet ya'll and talk about these things in person some day.

Sincerely.
Aaron Park

[exFSAE]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aaron@Kaist:
what good is the search function without data?
if your gonna be a use the search function basher, I suggest you use it first.

Plus all you international team haters, I understand it feels like 2nd rate teams and countries are encroaching on your territory, but cut us some slack. We operate under far more handicapped situations compared to you guys. For example, we at KAIST pay nearly 40% more for items imported from the states, and there is not one autoclave in South Korea. Of course our technical know how and skill is going to substandard. If you guys take the time to help us out, it'll benefit the FSAE program by becoming a bit more international, a bit more prestigious, and it will benefit everyone in the long run. This is sort of in response to someone's post claiming that more international teams will mean there will be more posts that say "engineer this for me"...to be honest, if your team was a first year team, and you had no history or school seniors/professors to help you, I doubt you would be in a better situation, asking different questions...just MY 2 cents...sorry if I offended anyone. 2009 west WOOHOO!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pff. Back in the good ol days.. say 6-7 years ago our guys were building FSAE cars in a break-out room, about the size of a big walk-in closet. Barely enough room to walk around the car, much less do anything productive. No laser or CNC cutting tubes, hell no chop saw. Tubes cut with a hacksaw and notched with a big ol grinding wheel with "War Department" stamped on it.

Had a TIG welder, some access to manual mills and lathes and a pathetic CNC that took ONE WEEK to produce one upright.

There was no CAD model of the engine, other than a simplified block-lookin object. Hell the whole car was "designed" in autocad. I'll have to dig up some pictures and post em. Most fabrication was just "well.. we got some steel tube, lets just build somethin that works"

Funding? I think they had $5-6k total, the rest of which came out of pocket. 3 guys basically built the car. And finish placement in the mid 30's!

Autoclave? Still don't have one anywhere around. No need. Vac bag wet layup for the win.

I understand you have it tough, but there have been plenty who have come before that have worked with a LOT less. And its better that way, if you ask me. You learn to be very resourceful.

I'm all for that. There are some guys who have been fantastic machinists and welders. I'd say I'm pretty good with both. Denny Trimble, top notch.. the Penn State titanium welders as well. I got a lot more respect for the guys who do it all themselves or have very little resources and get it done.. than the ones who have almost all their fabrication outsourced. Lame.

Its funny though.. walkin around seein some cars that had CNC cut frame tubes, all sorts of trick machining.. outsourced carbon work.. and then their hand welds look like crap.

[Fyhr]

Now this thread is way way off topic, and I do agree with alot of what's been said with knowing your limits in a first year project. We build our last years car in the closet mentioned by exFSAE, with room to work on one side of the car at a time, access to only manual mills. With an engine that was a little bit over our heads with a inhouse designed supercharger. Now in the end, lack of testing resulted in a broken gearbox which ended our competition early.

So i do agree with the "keep it simple attitude", however, when a helping hand can be lent why not offer it?

We use a CBR600RR -07 this year, and we do have a model that is quite ok, what CAD system do you use? We've got a solidworks and a proE model, or do you prefer a neutral format? Shoot me (pontus.fyhr@gmail.com) or our Engine Leader (cim04tb1@student.lth.se) an email.

[exFSAE]

Sure, lending a helping hand is great.. but it is a little silly that there's a sticky thread at the top of this forum, with the CAD library, which includes an RR model.

[Fyhr]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by exFSAE:
Sure, lending a helping hand is great.. but it is a little silly that there's a sticky thread at the top of this forum, with the CAD library, which includes an RR model. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It does, however it is of a much older version and not very accurate, and if i recall correctly it is a 3dscan with sortof blurry surfaces which makes using it from a neutral format without any points or axis. The mounting points also differ to some extent.

Of course a search should be made, but in this case what you find may very well be misleading information.

[ben]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fyhr:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by exFSAE:
Sure, lending a helping hand is great.. but it is a little silly that there's a sticky thread at the top of this forum, with the CAD library, which includes an RR model. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It does, however it is of a much older version and not very accurate, and if i recall correctly it is a 3dscan with sortof blurry surfaces which makes using it from a neutral format without any points or axis. The mounting points also differ to some extent.

Of course a search should be made, but in this case what you find may very well be misleading information. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those of us who built cars with engine models developed using pen and paper and a tape measure are shaking their heads in disbelief.

Rob Beck at Birmingham (I'll name him because the effort warrants it) hand measured an R6 engine with a vernier height gauge in a non-orthogonal coordinate system, then transformed the points into a Cartesian axis system and then built a CATIA model from that - it took him less than a week.

What's more the model was damn accurate and I put a chassis tube within 10mm of the envelope defined by his model and it fitted beautifully when we built the thing. Also, in the process of measuring the engine we removed the sump and placed the whole thing on blocks and realised that rotating the engine back so the sump split was horizontal reduced the CG appreciably and changed the car's design accordingly. Serendipitous moments like that don't happen if you just demand a CAD model and blindly carry on having had the work done for you.

Part of this competition is demonstrating initiative and precious few of the new teams posting here appear to have any.

It's not nationalistic, or racist - crap engineering and/or a lack of initiative are the only issues here.

Ben

[Fyhr]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ben:
Those of us who built cars with engine models developed using pen and paper and a tape measure are shaking their heads in disbelief.

Rob Beck at Birmingham (I'll name him because the effort warrants it) hand measured an R6 engine with a vernier height gauge in a non-orthogonal coordinate system, then transformed the points into a Cartesian axis system and then built a CATIA model from that - it took him less than a week.

What's more the model was damn accurate and I put a chassis tube within 10mm of the envelope defined by his model and it fitted beautifully when we built the thing. Also, in the process of measuring the engine we removed the sump and placed the whole thing on blocks and realised that rotating the engine back so the sump split was horizontal reduced the CG appreciably and changed the car's design accordingly. Serendipitous moments like that don't happen if you just demand a CAD model and blindly carry on having had the work done for you.

Part of this competition is demonstrating initiative and precious few of the new teams posting here appear to have any.

It's not nationalistic, or racist - crap engineering and/or a lack of initiative are the only issues here.

Ben </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now i haven't been around for that as i am still quite young.

And measuring to make a model is somehow very very basic engineering to me, the guys in the Engine team in Lund measured our engine in a large manual mill with a digital coordinate system. However, not having a proper engine model is very devastating for your progress and if the engine is not readily available and has a delivery time of some months what would you do?

No matter of effort, tedious transforms of coordinate systems or any other magical tricks will help you.

And sure you may find great benefits with turning head gaskets the other way around, tilting whatever engine you have this or that way or even building your own from scratch or heavily modifying what used to be a waterpump engine will only do the EXACT opposite of what the general advice of this forum is to new teams. Creating more issues to handle when you should be focused on getting a reliable car on the road.

Hell even Gordon Murray miserably failed with the engine-tilted-on-its-side F1 car.

So, i return to my previous point, when good help is easily found to help you focus on the point where you can not find any "shortcuts" or "off the shelf" parts, such as frame/suspension/intake-exhaust tuning etc. etc. Why not take them.

Not to take any credit away from Rob Beck, i am certain he pulled a monster job where it was desperately needed, but you can spend a week doing coordinate transforms from a textbook. The rest of the race car, is slightly more difficult.

[PatClarke]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Plus all you international team haters, I understand it feels like 2nd rate teams and countries are encroaching on your territory </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aaron, I beg your pardon!!! Don't you dare suggest that the denizens of FSAE.com are 'International Team Haters' or that they feel threatened! FSAE and FS welcomes new and international teams better than any other competition I have ever been involved with! I take offence at your statement!

FSAE is not easy. It has never been easy, it is not easy for any new team. What the posters here dislike is teams (unfortunately, they are often international teams) asking for experienced teams to simply give them the knowledge. FSAE is an educational experience. You learn NOTHING by copying. You cannot answer the Design Judges Question when he asks "Why did you do that?"

Get your head around it, this is NOT about the car! It is about the journey, not the destination. A famous man said "Every journey begins with a single step" not a free ticket on a Jumbo jet with someone else paying the fare AND carrying your luggage.

So, don't get a chip on your shoulder because you aren't from a traditional FSAE country. 7 years ago, as Geoff pointed out earlier, the Aussie's were the beginners in 2001, and (pardon me Geoff) but the RMIT car was dreadful in 2001! yet by 2004 that team could win FS in the UK. Wollongong made their first car for the 2001 competition and won at Detroit in 2003! How did they do it? Certainly not by asking the established teams for their 'secrets'. Did the established teams vilify them? No, they were welcomed as adding to the quality of the global competition.
In 2005 we had never heard of a car from Austria? Now we have the two Graz teams among the best in the world. Not only did they not ask for a free hand, in most cases we didn't even know they existed. They just beavered away, researched and sourced their knowledge, got on with their design and build and are among the very best.

Enough of this 'Everyone hates us because we'll rock their comfortable boat' sh*t. Thats offensive and a sure fire way to guarantee you will get no assistance from anyone. So, get those chips off both shoulders, apologise to the forum and get on with your daydreaming project! Why not add magnetic levitation, a tub milled from solid titanium and KERS while you are at it.

If it sounds like I am pi**ed off, you are reading my mood just right!

Pat Clarke

[The AFX Master]

Well...

I can say some things about since our team was the first team of south america on 2002.South America TODAY have almos the same problems of Korea.. in fact, we have worst. We don´t have free access to US$ due to a hard exchange policy, so we need to do some paperwork (a large amount!!), to get the money in order to import things such an engine, carbon fibre and aluminum alloys. And we always perform well at comp.

In 2001 when our team started to design a car, there were no CAD fancy 3D stuff around.. only autoCAD and so much cardboard and wood to do your mock chassis and engine/susp/drivetrain layout like a jigsaw puzzle. They did it.. They did 59 overall and finished the enduro, and were the 3rd rookie of the year

Talking about results, we were on design semi finals on 2005, top 10 on cost since 3 years, top 20 acceleration the last two, and we were seriously close to a top 15 when overheated our engine at enduro last year at Michigan.

Korea is a country FAR more advanced on manufacturing industry than ours, in fact, we buy cars FROM YOU (Hyundai, Daewoo, Kia... correct if i´m wrong)!.. So, that´s limiting your results is your own way to do engineering.

Just my two.. well, we don´t have cents.. exchange rate control don´t let us to get them easily.

[Mustang Mac]

Wow, this post really digressed!! I have to agree with Mr. Clark on this one. When our team got started we had nothing, built the car in a garage with limited tools and no budget to speak of. Over the years you build up your knowledge, acquire tools and contacts within industry and sponsors. It takes a whole lot of work to design and build a car, but it also is the same for the teams. No one has had it easy to start, and it is this challenge that will help mold you into a better engineer.

We came from nothing to being a competitive top 20 team over a few years and that is all based on hard work. Over the years I was involved we never had a hand out, we fought for everything we got.

I think all teams starting out should focus on the little things first, get a reliable car built and once that's accomplished, move on the bigger and better challenges. The mark of a good engineer is their ability to learn, not to have someone else do it for them.

Anyway, my intent was not to offend anyone so I'll leave it at that.

[Fyhr]

Sorry to revive such an old topic, but it seems it is still revisited at times by people searching for models of this engine.

I've hosted our old model on http://www.fyhr.nu/CBR600RR-07.zip feel free to use it as you please. Rehost it and so on, i can't guarantee it will be up forever. Big thanks to Björn, Tommy and Jakob for developing the original model. Formats included are SLDPRT and x_t.