2006 Overnight Rules Change

[cornellracer56]

In response to the new rules that prevent teams from working on their cars overnight, we decided to start a petition.

This may not affect this year's competition, but could lead to future rules changes.

Here's the link:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/FSAE_Rules/

[cornellracer56]

In response to the new rules that prevent teams from working on their cars overnight, we decided to start a petition.

This may not affect this year's competition, but could lead to future rules changes.

Here's the link:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/FSAE_Rules/

[Steve Yao]

Have you determined if this rule was stipulated by California Speedway or solely by the FSAE West committee?

In any case, I don't believe either entity would respond to the petition without addressing their reason(s) for the rule; whether it be safety, security, or simply not wanting to keep the power on.

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

This is for the MI competition I believe, which is taking place at the Ford proving grounds....
I signed the petition, I know we will need to put time in our car at competition.

[jack]

not to sound like a dick, but honestly, why bother bringing a car that isnt finished?

also, i think i heard it was ford that made the call because that was what they wanted on their property, of which we are guests.

[RiNaZ]

i knew that was coming http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[CMURacing - Prometheus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jack:
not to sound like a dick, but honestly, why bother bringing a car that isnt finished?

also, i think i heard it was ford that made the call because that was what they wanted on their property, of which we are guests. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

because your long-term sponsor donations are contingent upon bringing a car to competition every year? this is why we did 2 years ago. it was a nightmare.

also, is it just me, or is anyone else curious why a certain high-profile school is looking for this rule change?

[RacingManiac]

working into the night allows for a lot more preparation works and such done as well. Most setup work in the past and general maintenance the day before enduro/dynamic events were done the previous night as to you don't rush before the stuff starts....the rule certainly takes away from that. I think also we all like to walk around the paddock during the day to see other school's car, now it just means instead of doing that we need to be working on the car during the day instead, in between all the different presentations and whatnot.....

I personally think it makes the competition less enjoyable and takes away from the experience. But I guess this probably was done in the past before the silverdome days too....

[Dr Claw]

So all of us in this thread have been to competition before...why are we bristling against asking for overnight access to our cars and competition?

Who's seen engines blow at sound test? who's seen parts let go and come apart after 3 weeks of testing? Competition, if you finish 'early', is time when your car starts falling apart.. We need this.

it's also a safty issue too... Many cars will go out not completely ready to race. these are still student built race cars...and that alone makes them dangerous http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Steve Yao]

Not necessarilly 'bristling' as much as making sure 1) Its even feasible, if not efforts are better spent elsewhere and 2) That the best effort is made. Signing a petition is fine, but it does not directly address how to make it happen.

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jack:
not to sound like a dick, but honestly, why bother bringing a car that isnt finished?

also, i think i heard it was ford that made the call because that was what they wanted on their property, of which we are guests. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

because we are so close and have spend sooo much time on it, $600 in registration, and since its registered, it has to change for the next year....2 years ago, we didnt drive the car before or at competition, never did get the brake system working, since some ppl made some ASSumptions that random components would stop the car, wronggggg.
Its fun working at nite and hearing teams starting up there engines and running them at 3am for the first time, plus, there is more room to walk around and talk to ppl at nite.

this year we just have to finish up drivetrain and tune the engine..40 days and counting.....

[Garlic]

You don't have to have a new car for next year just because this one is registered.

What everyone faile to recognize here, I think, is that this is not a case of SAE just waking up one day and saying 'Hey, let's f*ck those guys and not let them stay late.'

SAE needs a venue, in Michigan, that the sponsors support. They found what they needed but that venue has rules and this is one of them. I'm sure SAE understands that the students are going to miss the LUXURY of having 24 access. This is not something that is specified in the rules, and to my knowledge no other FSAE competitions have ever had this ability.

So in the end you are just telling SAE something they already know. You are not offering them any ideas on how to fix the problem.

And I know things happen, and for those cases, SAE has given alternatives to get your work done off-site.

I can see teams having a good arguement for getting 'screwed' if this was sprung upon them at the last minute. It was not, and is clear to everyone what the rules are. Deal with them. One more reason to get you car done.

I don't feel bad for anyone with an unfinished car. I was on a team that was underfunded. You plan based on your abilities, the one goal you have is to get to the competition prepared.

[B.K.]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jack:
not to sound like a dick, but honestly, why bother bringing a car that isnt finished? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CMURacing - Prometheus:
... is it just me, or is anyone else curious why a certain high-profile school is looking for this rule change? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In my four compeitions, I can only remember about three nights (out of the 16-20 total nights) when the truck was locked up with no one working on the car. Two of those cars won the competition and another took third, so they were plenty "finished." But all of those cars had a considerable to-do list when we got to the competition. Some of the stuff was pretty major.

And like some other posts have pointed out, things happen, even to "finished" cars. Parts break. Engines blow. You think that stuff doesn't happen if you're "prepared?" Come on. Hell, we drove a car into the hay bales of the practice area one year in the middle of the competition. You bet there was work to do that night.

Once there was nothing to tighten or tweak, no suspension setup to do, etc, we would polish every part on the car, paint every chipped spot on the frame, etc. If you're in final design you're going to be judged all the way through Sunday morning and the car has to look perfect. Unless every single bolt on your car has the right number of threads showing, your car is not "finished." Does that stuff matter in design judging? If you've read Carroll Smith's books, you know the answer is yes.

The fact that a "certain high-profile school" wants the opportunity to work overnight is an indication of how valuable that time is to everyone.

And besides, you spent all year on your car... if it isn't glowing, why are you going to bed?

[Chris Davin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by B.K.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jack:
not to sound like a dick, but honestly, why bother bringing a car that isnt finished? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CMURacing - Prometheus:
... is it just me, or is anyone else curious why a certain high-profile school is looking for this rule change? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In my four compeitions, I can only remember about three nights (out of the 16-20 total nights) when the truck was locked up with no one working on the car. Two of those cars won the competition and another took third, so they were plenty "finished." But all of those cars had a considerable to-do list when we got to the competition. Some of the stuff was pretty major.

And like some other posts have pointed out, things happen, even to "finished" cars. Parts break. Engines blow. You think that stuff doesn't happen if you're "prepared?" Come on. Hell, we drove a car into the hay bales of the practice area one year in the middle of the competition. You bet there was work to do that night.

Once there was nothing to tighten or tweak, no suspension setup to do, etc, we would polish every part on the car, paint every chipped spot on the frame, etc. If you're in final design you're going to be judged all the way through Sunday morning and the car has to look perfect. Unless every single bolt on your car has the right number of threads showing, your car is not "finished." Does that stuff matter in design judging? If you've read Carroll Smith's books, you know the answer is yes.

The fact that a "certain high-profile school" wants the opportunity to work overnight is an indication of how valuable that time is to everyone.

And besides, you spent all year on your car... if it isn't glowing, why are you going to bed? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ben, you basically echoed my thoughts.

I react the same way to this new rule as I would to any rule prohibiting teams from working on their cars during any specific period of time. It will be frustrating to everyone to lose some control over, and opportunity to improve, their cars. By taking away opportunities for students to work on their cars, more of the result is dependent on circumstance and less on the students' effort. There are plenty of reasons to work on your car at competition, regardless of how well-prepared the team is in advance: setting up the suspension to work on the new racing surface, cleaning up the car in preparation for design judging, changing engine parameters for various reasons, etc.

Besides, isn't staying up late at competition and polishing your car (literally, and figuratively) an important part of the experience? When the ARG05 finally made it into the endurance area last year, I found myself surprisingly calmed knowing that regardless of what happened I put every bit of energy I could muster into the car's preparation. I think it would be an incredibly lousy way to end your college and FSAE experience to know that your car lost because it had a problem you were capable of fixing, but weren't allowed to fix.

I know that the judges have never been satisfied with the fraction of cars that finish endurance. Perhaps whoever instituted this rule was thinking that it would encourage a heavier focus on reliability and preparation. However, I doubt it will inspire teams to work enough extra hours leading up to competition to make up for the lost time once there. If you have the chance to work an extra 50-60 hours in the spring (without failing classes, being so tired that you're ineffective, etc.) then you're not working hard enough to expect to have a shot at winning anyway. I, for one, am convinced that the endurance completion rate will drop significantly if the rule remains in effect.

I'm not sure why anyone would think it's scandalous that Cornell would propose the rules change be reversed. It's definitely true that Cornell has been one of the most active teams during the nights at competition. All four of my years, we worked nearly non-stop, staggering sleeping and working shifts. However, almost everyone reading this also knows that we have placed a big emphasis on development in the spring (Feb 1 anyone?) so I think the new rule might hurt Cornell less than it hurts other teams, if it remains in effect.

From the perspective of an FSAE alum, it's pretty clear to me that the rule will make competition less enjoyable for everyone, and that's why I would support its reversal. I would hope the rule wasn't implemented to encourage a focus on reliability, because if so I think the effort is misplaced. On the other hand, if Ford is simply mandating it for business reasons, it seems there will be little room for negotiation.

[RacingManiac]

I am pretty sure the rule is not a competition rule and more of a venue rule, which is probably why its unlikely it'll be changed anytime soon.

I wonder if there are any alumnis around to tell us when they did host these event at the various proving grounds that such a rule was in place....

[Travis Garrison]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jack:
not to sound like a dick, but honestly, why bother bringing a car that isnt finished?

also, i think i heard it was ford that made the call because that was what they wanted on their property, of which we are guests. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't help it....Jack, are you forgetting about the last time WWU went to comp? Catastrophic engine failure? Long nights getting it back into running shape (only to have me loop it)? Remember all of that? Or do you just want some guarantee of sleep once you get to comp? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[B.K.]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RacingManiac:
I am pretty sure the rule is not a competition rule and more of a venue rule... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. I don't see it as a rule change intended to limit the work students do on the car; the host just doesn't want kids on site overnight. Which is up to them I guess. Although if it was made clear how valuable that time is to the teams, it's not unimaginable that they might hire three extra rent-a-cops for the overnight shift.

And it's worth pointing out that, per the rules, you can pack up at 7:00 and drive out at 8:00 to work in the hotel parking lot overnight (or in the driveway of a local alumnus, more likely). This is a HUGE pain, of course. But if you have an engine change to do, it's not like you have no options.

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

don't quote me on this, but either last or the year before UW-Madison ended up swapping out there "race" engine with a stocker one nite at competition after it wouldn't shift gears (bent fork from ppl shifting it without the engine running they thought). They are a "high profile" school and finished top 10...

I'm confused why SAE needs Ford's location... They are SAE Worldwide and the people working at the event aren't getting paid, plus GM and Chrysler are in on it too...

[Garlic]

You don't think SAE needs Ford's location? What's your alternative?

[Dan G]

This was my vote while it was still up in the air last summer...

http://www.mispeedway.com/index.jsp

Hike the entry fees by $100/team, $200/team, whatever it would cost. Its not like teams are going to go, "Wait, that entry fee is just too high, we're not doing FSAE any more." And $100-200 more is really not very significant in terms of our budgets. Superspeedways have the size and facilities necessary to host this kind of event. No "be prepared to have your pit in the grass" or "we're hoping they'll let everyone take pictures" nonsense.

EDIT: I just scoped out MIS on google earth, it doesn't look like they have alot of asphault. So maybe they wouldn't be that great of a venue after all.

[Bill Kunst]

Hey, just a thought...

What would we seriously do without the big two and #4? There are many teams who have parts break and must go to GM for emergency machining. The staff and personel that are given the time to be involved in this project. The undertaking is huge, and it is one of the cheapest racing weekends available. SM guys might bust $1500 or more on an event this big, and if they wanted the support that we get, it would be many more times that cost.

On the other side...
If we say that your car should come to comp absolutely perfect (we are pros), than no more machine shop, no more support, and lets go to a real venue. Lets move to a kart track that has room for all of us (like Road America), and do some serious competition. If we went to a track that also host a nascar event, we could even have garages, rather than working in a trailer. Now, if you break, you can fix it. If a part breaks, better have extra. And if you didn't have the full commitment do be there, it would be a little harder. As for the entry fees, we could charge spectators to lessen the ouch.

This is just some ideas if we want to tell the event organizers that we don't like the work they do. I am sure that they said, "lets screw over all the little guys!" cause that is what I would say in their place?! The event organizers spend alot of time doing this, it is basically a full time position. And most of the people have been around longer than us(with the comp) and have been involved in competing as well.

Just my dime of an opinion (inflation sucks).

Bill

[RacingManiac]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dan G:
This was my vote while it was still up in the air last summer...

http://www.mispeedway.com/index.jsp

Hike the entry fees by $100/team, $200/team, whatever it would cost. Its not like teams are going to go, "Wait, that entry fee is just too high, we're not doing FSAE any more." And $100-200 more is really not very significant in terms of our budgets. Superspeedways have the size and facilities necessary to host this kind of event. No "be prepared to have your pit in the grass" or "we're hoping they'll let everyone take pictures" nonsense.

EDIT: I just scoped out MIS on google earth, it doesn't look like they have alot of asphault. So maybe they wouldn't be that great of a venue after all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am sure you also read that the Cali Speedway for the west competition also has timelimit at night.....I think most race track would....I remember working at Indianapolis for the Formula BMW race in 2004 we have to get out by 8.....

[Dan G]

I'm not as concerned about the 8pm curfew, more about the quirks of having it at a place like FPG. Making everyone park at the entrance and take shuttles into the complex. Having the pits on asphault, gravel, and/or grass. Not having permanent bathrooms or food vendors. Minimal local hotel rooms. All of those things would be great at a large venue like MIS or another roundy-round type track.

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

I second Road America's Kart track.....

[RacingManiac]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by drivetrainUW-Platt:
I second Road America's Kart track..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We can go to Sebkins(sp?) afterwards too....like the real race car drivers....http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Bill Kunst]

I'll throw a huge a$$ barn party. It'd be awesome.

But really, can we go without the major support? If we can't than it is a useless dream, Like you dreaming of Candace Michelle!

[Garlic]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dan G:
I'm not as concerned about the 8pm curfew, more about the quirks of having it at a place like FPG. Making everyone park at the entrance and take shuttles into the complex. Having the pits on asphault, gravel, and/or grass. Not having permanent bathrooms or food vendors. Minimal local hotel rooms. All of those things would be great at a large venue like MIS or another roundy-round type track. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you ever been to MIS? Or are your forgetting the size of this competition.

There are no major hotels within 30 minutes of MIS. If you could find enough asphalt to run the competition on, everyone would be pitting in the grass. And likely, most would be parking outside too. There's less room than you think.

It's a lot harder than it sounds to make something of this scale work. The Silverdome was ideal (despite poor asphalt). Now there will be another transitional period of rotation through venues (just like pre-Silverdome FSAE) until another good permanent venue is found.

Of maybe they should just cancel it if they can't do it 'right' ? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

arent there 100's stadiums in the US thou? seems like pavement isnt that hard to find?

Bill, is your sister(s) going to be at this barn party, if so I'm in

[Bill Kunst]

1 in a million doesn't even begin to describe your chances. But if you are content with looking(probably staring in your case), I am sure that they would ask security to remove you.

[Dan G]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Garlic:
Have you ever been to MIS? Or are your forgetting the size of this competition.

There are no major hotels within 30 minutes of MIS. If you could find enough asphalt to run the competition on, everyone would be pitting in the grass. And likely, most would be parking outside too. There's less room than you think.

It's a lot harder than it sounds to make something of this scale work. The Silverdome was ideal (despite poor asphalt). Now there will be another transitional period of rotation through venues (just like pre-Silverdome FSAE) until another good permanent venue is found.

Of maybe they should just cancel it if they can't do it 'right' ? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah, I was there in 2002 for an IRL race (Sarah Fisher lead the pack for a few laps at the end (http://www.mispeedway.com/news/news.jsp?news_id=323)).

It was rather rural, and like I said, the google earth recon showed it was definitely lacking in the blacktop department. So I'll concede, MIS is probably not the best choice.

The SCCA uses the DTE Energy lot sometimes and there's also the Palace of Auburn Hills (Pistons arena) lot.

I grabbed them off GE and made comparison photos at the same scale...

http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/UMDR/FPG.jpg
http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/UMDR/silverdome.jpg
http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/UMDR/palace.jpg
http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/UMDR/DTE_Theatre.jpg

Looks like the Palace could be a decent option. Except I'm sure the organizers have already considered it, its only a few miles from the Silverdome and would be an obvious choice.

[BeaverGuy]

The issue with the Palace of Auburn Hills is timing, there are basketball games going on at the time of competition. It isn't a given that there will be a game but you can't plan on there not being one because it is playoff time. If the east competition was in June and West in May then it might be possible.

[57JoeFoMoPar]

I'm gonna agree with Ben from Cornell. I undrestand that the issue is with the venue and the cost of additional security, but there has to be some kind of happy medium or comprimise that can be reached. Shit happens to the best of us, and even finished cars need plenty of attention. It sucks thrashing hard till 8 and having to get up super early to finish when you know that you could work at a relaxed pace and finish at 10 pm