Steel Sourcing (+speccing)

[markocosic]

Hi all,


Short version:
I'd like some assistance sourcing steel within the UK/EU – in particular who you've found helpful or sourced tubes from in the past. Justification for use of different grades also useful!



Long version:
I'm in the process of specifying/sourcing (not necessarily in that order!) steels for our vehicle and have only jus begun to appreciate the monstrous assortment of different steels and descriptions of the same steels out there.



From pulling tube specifications from your car specifications, you appear to be using:

SAE 1018 and 1020 (generic mild steel – but one that is at least to a spec?)
SAE 4130 (a middling spec alloy steel?)
Werkstoff 1.7218 (or DIN 25CrMo4/AFNOR 25CD4S – same as 4130?)
Werkstoff 1.7734 (or DIN 14CrMoV6,9/AFNOR 15CDV6 – looks like an even nicer alloy steel?)
Also: St35, St37, St52, S235, S355 (?) and the old Brit mainstay T45

Why do you teams that use these use these?



I'm tempted by an alloy steel (that 1.7734 sounds gorgeous...) for uprights and wishbones/pushrods/tie-rods, but for the spaceframe itself, rules and stiffness limit before yield does - so no need for the exotic materials for yield strength reasons?

What I do need is:

*Nice to weld (preferably without pre/post-treatment)
*Nice to bend using sand-packing+former+heat (minimum limit on elongation %)
*Availability in the section sizes/wall thicknesses/lengths I'm after (inc square)
*With the old workable cost and lead-time

Anything I'm missing before quizzing suppliers?



Now the tricky bit – the actual source! Tomorrow I will call the suppliers below and see what they have to offer, but I'd like to know (especially from the European teams if you're reading) where else folks are sourcing/have found helpful in the past.

(existing uni links)
Arena Stock +44 1462 481 184
Metalfast +44 1480 451 144
Parker Steel +44 1227 783 265

(helpful to chat to, not so helpful with stock/pricing lists!)
Elmdon Metals Ltd +44 1217 810 999

(national pride says I shouldn't, but what the hell!)
Don Foster Racing +33 470 580 308

(and from the back of RCE)
Advanced Metals International +44 1923 210 250
AircoMetals Ltd +44 1189 730 509
Apperley Honing +44 1242 525 868
Brady Fabrications +44 1869 252 750
Byworth Material Services +44 1453 821 609
CTG +44 1295 220 130
Smiths High Performance +44 1767 604 708
Super Alloys International +44 1908 260 707

[markocosic]

Hi all,


Short version:
I'd like some assistance sourcing steel within the UK/EU – in particular who you've found helpful or sourced tubes from in the past. Justification for use of different grades also useful!



Long version:
I'm in the process of specifying/sourcing (not necessarily in that order!) steels for our vehicle and have only jus begun to appreciate the monstrous assortment of different steels and descriptions of the same steels out there.



From pulling tube specifications from your car specifications, you appear to be using:

SAE 1018 and 1020 (generic mild steel – but one that is at least to a spec?)
SAE 4130 (a middling spec alloy steel?)
Werkstoff 1.7218 (or DIN 25CrMo4/AFNOR 25CD4S – same as 4130?)
Werkstoff 1.7734 (or DIN 14CrMoV6,9/AFNOR 15CDV6 – looks like an even nicer alloy steel?)
Also: St35, St37, St52, S235, S355 (?) and the old Brit mainstay T45

Why do you teams that use these use these?



I'm tempted by an alloy steel (that 1.7734 sounds gorgeous...) for uprights and wishbones/pushrods/tie-rods, but for the spaceframe itself, rules and stiffness limit before yield does - so no need for the exotic materials for yield strength reasons?

What I do need is:

*Nice to weld (preferably without pre/post-treatment)
*Nice to bend using sand-packing+former+heat (minimum limit on elongation %)
*Availability in the section sizes/wall thicknesses/lengths I'm after (inc square)
*With the old workable cost and lead-time

Anything I'm missing before quizzing suppliers?



Now the tricky bit – the actual source! Tomorrow I will call the suppliers below and see what they have to offer, but I'd like to know (especially from the European teams if you're reading) where else folks are sourcing/have found helpful in the past.

(existing uni links)
Arena Stock +44 1462 481 184
Metalfast +44 1480 451 144
Parker Steel +44 1227 783 265

(helpful to chat to, not so helpful with stock/pricing lists!)
Elmdon Metals Ltd +44 1217 810 999

(national pride says I shouldn't, but what the hell!)
Don Foster Racing +33 470 580 308

(and from the back of RCE)
Advanced Metals International +44 1923 210 250
AircoMetals Ltd +44 1189 730 509
Apperley Honing +44 1242 525 868
Brady Fabrications +44 1869 252 750
Byworth Material Services +44 1453 821 609
CTG +44 1295 220 130
Smiths High Performance +44 1767 604 708
Super Alloys International +44 1908 260 707

[Garry C]

Hi Marko,

I've had the same problems as you, i.e. trying to source steel.

Last year and this year we're getting sponsorship from a german company called Tennant Metals

http://www.tennant-metall.de/moto_en.htm

The boss barry is a really cool guy and is giving us all our steel for free including shipping from germany!!
They stock 25CrMo4 (Euro spec same as 4130) and 15CDV6 (very nice, very pricey!!)

You can try e-mailing to see what he says (just as long as he keeps giving our stuff for free http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Elmdon metals are also good for T45, there a bit backwards (no credit card ordering etc) but they've got a lot of sizes in stock, very expensive though as T45 is certified aero grade stuff.

A company I tried in the states called the chassis shop gave me a quote for shipping 4130 to the UK, about $300 shipping , total for the spaceframe came to about £400 which isn't too bad, goes to show just how much we get ripped off in the uk
A company the college has on account is called Dore metals, give them a shot although i've only ever used them for ali. I've also been through the companies at the back of RCE, so far no luck.

In terms of materials, if you can afford it why not go for the 15CDV6, apparently no need for PWHT, great properties, totally overkill for the chassis though. For the wishbones it might be useful although stiffness should be the limiting factor and not strength. I think for the chassis i'm designing at the moment bog mild seamless tube will do, although if i can get 25crmo4 for free then why not.

If you don't heat treat your chassis or wishbones after welding then it usually doesn't matter what grade steel you use anyway because it will be limited by the HAZ. Also bending chrome-moly stuff is not as easy as mild steel, in the past we've always just used stock CDS tubes that the tube benders have for things like rollhoops that need bending

Anyway good luck!!

Garry

[Jersey Tom]

Chassis Shop is dirt cheap for 4130 tube. We've made our chassis a bit smaller oveall, but by going through Chassis Shop and with a different shipping method we cut our chassis steel order from $900 in 06 to $300 in 07.

The benders we've gone to haven't had problems bending 4130 at all.. well, other than blowing a key tolerance on our FRH this year.

I've never welded 15CDV6 myself, but the composition looks pretty similar to 4130. Lower carbon content so I can imagine it welds nice and doesn't get a nasty HAZ but then again I'd imagine it doesn't have the hardenability of a XX30 steel.

[Alastair Clarke]

For info, Metalfast (who sponsored us) are an aluminium supplier as far as I know - that's all we've ever got from them. They're good for a range of ally grades, 2014, 6082, 7075 etc.

We've used 4130 at great cost in the past, but the team at the time overlooked the fact that you need to heat treat it after welding to get decent mech properties. For this reason, we moved to T45, which doesn't need heat treating after welding. It's very nice to weld, both TIG and MIG - we've always sourced it from Elmdon, mainly due to the FS discount. Rather than asking for a price list, I've found it easier to ring them up and ask for prices on specific diameter/SWG/length pieces of tube.

An alternative, which I've never used, is Enpar Special Alloys in Sheffield, who stock T45 (or did about 2 years ago when I went through the same process as you are now Marko!)

Hope this helps

Alastair

[markocosic]

Barry from Tennant is indeed a top bloke - and a fellow Welshman! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Good advice, sensible retail on the 15CDV6. (unlike super alloys international http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif) You got the plug Garry - and he said hurry up and deisgn a chassis so that they can get you some steel out LOL!

Metalfast are ThyssenKrupp group and put me through to their tubes bod, whose number I've currently managed to misplace. Arena stock very helpful, parkers (UK) don't really carry the range we're after and weren't massively inclined to do so for our volumes, which is fair enough.

Nothing much from RCE adverts, will take a look at enpar and elmdon again, but only as a potentially cheaper supplier rather than preferred suppliers.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In terms of materials, if you can afford it why not go for the 15CDV6, apparently no need for PWHT, great properties, totally overkill for the chassis though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd never be allowed back into the manufacturing engineering deparment for such extravagance - it's our job to do our best to destroy good mechancial engineering designs by trying to make them out of cheese using a labour force staffed by monkeys remember! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Budget doesn't exist to be honest, and once I got chatting I didn't have the cheek to ask Barry about outright sponsorship for two teams - after all he should get the exposure he's after from the one.



Current steel plan: spaceframe in cold-drawn-seamless S355 mild tube (dead easy to work and weld, meets the regs, dirt cheap even without a special deal). Except: rollhoops in 2.5mm wall, 25mm OD 15CVD6 (welds nicely even to mild, plenty of elongation for bending, sticking with 25mm OD makes joints easy and the higher yield strength arguably won't go amiss in a rollover); welded in suspension pickup inserts in 15CDV6 for both stiffness and strength reasons. No spaceframe heat-treatment.

Wishbones and upright in 15CDV6/4130 sheet/tube, dependant on exact dimensions we're after, heat-treating as appropriate. Strength/stiffness as the limiting factor depends on how heavy your fsae-standard cone is, how big a kerb you're aiming to survive side-swiping and how much weight you allow a spectator to rest on the wishbone before bowling them over, heh!



I've put a a little tool I made for steel tubes up here:

http://www.cosic.org.uk/misc/TubeRulesSpreadsheet.xls

I got fed up with lots of different rules and tube measurements, so what this spreadshheet does is translate the FSAE rules into three 'Control Tubes' (hoop/side impact/front bulkhead), each having a minimum wall thickness and minimum second moment of area, then takes tube dimensions in whatever form you desire (mm, inches, AWG, (US) SWG, (UK) SWG) and converts them all into mm before checking to see whether those tubes can be used for each of the three control areas and saying yes/no with a big green/red box - easy peasy!

It's not the prettiest - you need to make sure you only give it an OD or Wall Thickness in one dimension else it'll choose the maximum of those you input and you need to enter '999' in the wire gauge boxes if you're not using them - but as far as teling you if a given round/square tube is rules-legal quickly and without conversion errors it's fine.

Currently it does round and square tube, but the square tube is assimed to be sharp-cornered and may not exactly reflect the tube you use. (you've been warned!) I'll add columns for straightness and euler-with-pre-bend-buckling load later. Conversions from Machinerys Handbook, 27th Edition.

Hope it's useful, feel free to use/abuse/update and share as you wish. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Garry C]

Sounds good Marko,
Yeah Barry's a bit of a legend, I met him at the Autosport Competition last year, they'll be coming back this week so I guess I'll have to go and butter him up some more.
Thanks for the spreadsheet, looks like it'll come in handy.
How's your team going this year? I remember you coming to our stall at FS 2006. From what I understand Cambridge has never been big on Formula Student stuff, it's nice to see you're making progress this year though!

[www.elmdonmetals.co.uk]

Elmdonmetals new phone number

01604 670992
Northampton
nn3 8rf

Largest stockholder in the world of BS4t45 to BS4t100 "T45" Tube

15cdv6 Tube In Stock Now!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by markocosic:
Hi all,


Short version:
I'd like some assistance sourcing steel within the UK/EU – in particular who you've found helpful or sourced tubes from in the past. Justification for use of different grades also useful!



Long version:
I'm in the process of specifying/sourcing (not necessarily in that order!) steels for our vehicle and have only jus begun to appreciate the monstrous assortment of different steels and descriptions of the same steels out there.



From pulling tube specifications from your car specifications, you appear to be using:

SAE 1018 and 1020 (generic mild steel – but one that is at least to a spec?)
SAE 4130 (a middling spec alloy steel?)
Werkstoff 1.7218 (or DIN 25CrMo4/AFNOR 25CD4S – same as 4130?)
Werkstoff 1.7734 (or DIN 14CrMoV6,9/AFNOR 15CDV6 – looks like an even nicer alloy steel?)
Also: St35, St37, St52, S235, S355 (?) and the old Brit mainstay T45

Why do you teams that use these use these?



I'm tempted by an alloy steel (that 1.7734 sounds gorgeous...) for uprights and wishbones/pushrods/tie-rods, but for the spaceframe itself, rules and stiffness limit before yield does - so no need for the exotic materials for yield strength reasons?

What I do need is:

*Nice to weld (preferably without pre/post-treatment)
*Nice to bend using sand-packing+former+heat (minimum limit on elongation %)
*Availability in the section sizes/wall thicknesses/lengths I'm after (inc square)
*With the old workable cost and lead-time

Anything I'm missing before quizzing suppliers?



Now the tricky bit – the actual source! Tomorrow I will call the suppliers below and see what they have to offer, but I'd like to know (especially from the European teams if you're reading) where else folks are sourcing/have found helpful in the past.

(existing uni links)
Arena Stock +44 1462 481 184
Metalfast +44 1480 451 144
Parker Steel +44 1227 783 265

(helpful to chat to, not so helpful with stock/pricing lists!)
Elmdon Metals Ltd +44 1217 810 999

(national pride says I shouldn't, but what the hell!)
Don Foster Racing +33 470 580 308

(and from the back of RCE)
Advanced Metals International +44 1923 210 250
AircoMetals Ltd +44 1189 730 509
Apperley Honing +44 1242 525 868
Brady Fabrications +44 1869 252 750
Byworth Material Services +44 1453 821 609
CTG +44 1295 220 130
Smiths High Performance +44 1767 604 708
Super Alloys International +44 1908 260 707 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Mr Impatial]

You may also want to try Aerocom Metals, half the price of other major stockists!