FS UK registration process

[Luniz]

I bet all of you who would like to attend the FS UK event next year have already heard of the strange registration process the organisers have come up with. If you didn't, here is a quote of the most important parts:

"Due to the over subscription of teams last year, the online registration process will consist of a selection process for 2010. Registration forms will be accepted 11-15 January. Please note that it will not be a ‘first come, first served’ basis, as previous years. Following 15 January, all registration forms will be reviewed and teams will find out if their application has been successful on 22 January."

"2. Selection process
15-22 January: The FS Steering Group will select 100 cars to invite. "


What do you think about that? Can you imagine how it must feel when you are denied to enter the competition for whatever reason you cannot figure out?

In my opinion, the way it used to be (fist come first serve) was not ideal either, but at least teams kind of had it in their own hands if they could manage to register or not.

[Luniz]

I bet all of you who would like to attend the FS UK event next year have already heard of the strange registration process the organisers have come up with. If you didn't, here is a quote of the most important parts:

"Due to the over subscription of teams last year, the online registration process will consist of a selection process for 2010. Registration forms will be accepted 11-15 January. Please note that it will not be a ‘first come, first served’ basis, as previous years. Following 15 January, all registration forms will be reviewed and teams will find out if their application has been successful on 22 January."

"2. Selection process
15-22 January: The FS Steering Group will select 100 cars to invite. "


What do you think about that? Can you imagine how it must feel when you are denied to enter the competition for whatever reason you cannot figure out?

In my opinion, the way it used to be (fist come first serve) was not ideal either, but at least teams kind of had it in their own hands if they could manage to register or not.

[Bemo]

In my opinion this is the worst solution to deal with the problem of over subscription.

First-come-first-serve or the rules quiz they're make for FSG (which was my idea by the way ;-)) are much better solutions. Like that every team has a chance to compete.

They don't even tell by which criterias they are planning to choose the teams. Does that mean that a new founded team which of course doesn't have any succes from the past can't compete because the organizers don't know the team. Or does that mean that new teams with new members can't attend because of bad performance by previous teams?

That's like Italy was in the past, but even the organizers there recognized that this isn't the way you should handle that...

[Bippi]

Hi guys,
I agree that this is the worst solution, and I also think that the solution with quiz is not so great idea (NHF). I think that if you (team) are planing to build a car like formula student is, you must be sure that you will compete with that car. We all know what a job is to build one FS car and we all know how expensive is to built it. I do not want to write how much time is needed because we all know that. So my opinion is that number of teams must be unlimited for all competitions. Last year our team wrote an e-mail to Fiona in which we said that the number of teams must be unlimited because it is only fair. She said that it is expensive to organize FS event, and paying the judges, rent a track etc. But how expensive is to build a FS car, what a time is spend to design and build it, and how much motivation for work you lose if you fail on registration? What will I tell to sponsors, why I failed, because of 10sec delay on registration..? Registration fee for FS Uk is £1,292.50 which is for our team big money, and it is more bigger because it is not refundable if you give up. So lot of money for build a car is our student money. I hope that you don't have problems like we have. And after all that who guarantees that we will be successfully registered into any of the competition..? I think that with registration fee of £1,292.50 and with six months time, they have enough time to organize themselve for unlimited number of teams, what will result compleatly fair competition.

Cheers

[Bemo]

First of all you should accept that the organizers of all competition are volunteers who are spending their free time to make FSAE possible at all. So you should be really careful about the way you are talking to them.

The second thing is, that everybody agrees that an unlimited number of teams at all competitions would be the best and most desireable solution, but unfortunately completely unrealistic.
If more teams attend at an event you need more space, more volunteers, more money (yes registration fee is expensive but still not at all enough to fund such a competition) and so on.

If you reach a certain number of teams you will also get into trouble running all the dynamic events within two days.
In the end it comes down to the fact that it is just not possible to have an unlimited number of teams at a single event. What we need is a system like in the US which makes sure that every team can attend at least at one event.

[PatClarke]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">University and Faculty don't give us money for project because they are all brain sick, corrupted people who think only on his own ass. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bippi,
I usually ignore anon rant posts, but when something as unpleasant as this is posted, I have to take the opportunity to tell you to Get Fuc*ed!

You are a selfish prat and attitudes like yours are why organisers make the decision to 'invite' applicants to compete.
With an attitude like this and a total disrespect for your faculty, your team would be the first to be struck off my list! Then in the following year when the team produced documentary evidence that they had beaten the crap out of you, they might again be considered!

At the moment all the major events are over subscribed so a solution has to be found. Regardless of the decision, teams are going to be hurt. From the organiser's perspective, taking 'First come first served' only to find a significant number of teams turn up with both a disgraceful effort of a car and an even worse attitude, they think "Oh dear, we knocked back some really deserving teams to let these clowns take up a space". I suspect this description fits your team!

I think it is a great idea to invite the applicants to compete, knowing the quality and attitude will be good and the competition will improve. If your team isn't good enough, then get your act together and compete next year.
FS/FSAE is a service provided to enhance your education. It is NOT motorsport and teams have no god given right to a start.

The competition mirrors real life. When a company calls for expressions of interest, they then cull the list before asking for tenders. That's how life is in the big dog eat dog world after school. Get used to it and get your attitude straight.

Meanwhile, just hide behind your clown handle and whinge that life isn't fair. You are right! It isn't!

Pat Clarke
(currently involved with FSG, FSUK, FSAE and FSAEA .....That's a lot of competitions you are jeopardising for your team)

[Luniz]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

At the moment all the major events are over subscribed so a solution has to be found. Regardless of the decision, teams are going to be hurt. From the organiser's perspective, taking 'First come first served' only to find a significant number of teams turn up with both a disgraceful effort of a car and an even worse attitude, they think "Oh dear, we knocked back some really deserving teams to let these clowns take up a space". I suspect this description fits your team!

I think it is a great idea to invite the applicants to compete, knowing the quality and attitude will be good and the competition will improve. If your team isn't good enough, then get your act together and compete next year.
FS/FSAE is a service provided to enhance your education. It is NOT motorsport and teams have no god given right to a start.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I totally agree with the points made in the above statement, BUT: How on earth are you going to judge the quality of a car or team when the car is not already built? You can only judge on previous achievements of one team, but that can only be done by assuming that the team in this year is just as well or badly organised as it has been the year before. This can lead to mis-judgement in the case that in one team the members have been completely interchanged. The other, more important case would be that you would kind of deny any further developement of a given team which has performed badly in the previous year ad have now "got their act together".

Well, I hope the organisation comittee of FSUK will come up with a better method of determining a team's performability.

[PatClarke]

Lutz. I'll let you into a little secret.

It's NOT about the car ;-)

Pat :-)

[Bemo]

So it's about the team I guess (what makes sense). But I still have to agree with Luniz. What if one year there is a team basically consisiting of clowns who ruin the reputation of the team and the next year there are almost only new team members.
These new members don't get a chance because of the clowns who aren't within the team anymore?

In the end you're right, no matter which procedure is chosen. Every team which can't attend will be disappointed and say that it isn't fair and so on.

[Crispy]

Other than maybe Pat, does anyone on here hav any idea what the selection criteria will be? For all we know they could be choosing the teams that are in the most need of help, or teams that were not able to register for other events, such as the quick filling FS-Germany and FSAE-Michigan (which both register before FS-UK). There are endless possibilities. It doesn't seem to be worth freaking out about at this point.

But, I am surprised that they have chosen to keep the selection criteria a secret. I don't see the advantage of creating such a large information void, as it obviously creates a lot of tension and anxiety. Perhaps they have a perfectly good reason for doing this.

[James-H]

Agree with Crispy about appreciating a bit more info on what's going on. But I'll reserve opnion on the whole thing until then.

As an aside does anyone have ay idea what this is in reference too, off the 'key dates' section of the FSUK website:

27 March 2010 - Class 1 & Class 1A
Helmet and driver suit request deadline

Never come across this in previous years and I can't find any more detail on the website.

[TMichaels]

As we all probably know, there are no perfect solutions in the real world only compromises with respect to the requirements.

We will try something new with the rules quiz this year. Is this fair? We think so, but teams not being able to register will have a different opinion.
But even if the process would be completely and statistically fair by putting all teams that wish to register in a big bowl and picking one after another blind, teams not being picked will say that it was not fair.

Regarding the financial aspect that always comes up, just do the math: 100 teams pay 1.250GBP this equals 1380 Euros or 2030 Dollar and is 125.000GBP, 138.000 Euros or 230.000 Dollars in total. What do you think is the price for renting a whole race track for a week? Or to pay for the food and accomodation of 250 Judges and 100 volunteers? Printing magazines, renting technical equipment, etc etc, etc. You may notice that the teams registration fee is a drop in the bucket even if it is a lot of money for the teams.

Regards,

Tobi

[chadd]

The invited teams are published!
www.formulastudent.com/universities/Registration (http://www.formulastudent.com/universities/Registration)

It would be interesting to know which teams didn't make it and why.

[TMichaels]

They are not telling teams why they did'nt make it as far as I know.

Regards,

Tobias

[Thrainer]

What surprised me: From 14 German FSE teams, only one is invited to FS UK. Two possibilities: They were rejected or they didn't register.
Can anybody comment?

[JR @ CFS]

A lot of good arguements, but as was stated above, something needed to be done to improve the quality of teams arriving rather than the "first come, first served" method that has been used in the past. I always watched to see who registered and my eyes and heart sank when I saw some of the entries who missed out and remember some of the desperate scrambling of these teams to find other competitions to attend.

The folks at FSUK are fair and well meaning people and I'm certain that although their method is by no means perfect, it is well thought through. I'm almost certain they will also invite and take on any polite and well structured feedback.

[Bemo]

The problem for FSE teams is that class 1A at FS UK has quite a different reglement. If you attend at Silverstone and Hockenheim, you have to make a Cost Report and a Sustainability Report for example. Especially for smaller teams this is a big effort.
Also the technical requirements are quite different. A car with which you can compete in both competitions will be a compromise.
These were in fact the reasons, why our FSE team didn't register for FS UK and I guess it was for several others.

[blister]

Bemo, let`s discuss the conceptual differencies in the rules of both events. I think this is interesting topic.

The only big difference is that the maximum energy is limited to around 9kWh in Class 1A. But i don`t think that running with more than 9kWh is good for your overall weight even at FSE.

[Bazanaius]

Pat Said:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">but when something as unpleasant as this is posted, I have to take the opportunity to tell you to Get Fuc*ed!

You are a selfish prat and attitudes like yours are why organisers make the decision to 'invite' applicants to compete. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pat, is this not quite a hypocritical response lol?

PS. I understand the frustration, just made me laugh :-)

[Bemo]

Another difference is that at FSE it is possible to run at 600V at FS UK only 400V. So you have to accept a lower voltage limit than necessary at FSG to be able to compete in the UK.
Another point is that in Germany only full electric powered cars are allowed. In my opinion the FS UK rules are much better for hybrid cars. One can say that FS UK gives you more conceptual freedom, because you can choose between hybrid and full electric, on the other hands it will always be dependent on the rules which concept will have better chances to win.

Next point is the higher score for efficiency in England. The ideal compromise between power and efficiency might be different in England and Germany.

These are big differences in my opinion which make it hard to build a car which is competitive in both events. And the differences in the statics make it a lot of work.

Hopefully in the future they will find a compromise and make it easier for teams to attend at both events.

[JR @ CFS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Hopefully in the future they will find a compromise and make it easier for teams to attend at both events. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Would be nice if they could bang heads on that one. It's the same as the Swedish Touring Car Championship and the British Touring Car Championship who brought their rules into line so that people could compete in both without compromise. Brings up numbers for both organisations. Maybe that's just a little too much smart thinking!

[Michael Royce]

Let me put the cat among the pigeons!

As both FS and FSG are over subscribed, the organizers don't want to have teams enter both competitions, thereby giving more teams a chance to enter at least one event!

[JR @ CFS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Michael Royce:
Let me put the cat among the pigeons!

As both FS and FSG are over subscribed, the organizers don't want to have teams enter both competitions, thereby giving more teams a chance to enter at least one event! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is a fair comment Michael. Can I put forward the suggestion that in the future you allow a team to stipulate that they have designed their car towards a single event (if you aren't doing that already. Apologies for the ignorance as I am not directly involved in the registration process this year). It may help people to focus their efforts on a single solution rather than a compromise for both events.

I look forward to the competition this year.

[Luniz]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Michael Royce:
Let me put the cat among the pigeons!

As both FS and FSG are over subscribed, the organizers don't want to have teams enter both competitions, thereby giving more teams a chance to enter at least one event! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are quite a few teams though who are lucky enough to be registered for both events. My team (Raceyard Kiel) for example.
On the other hand it seems to be quite obvious that preferrence has been given to British teams, with 33 British teams invited in class 1, that being 37% of all invited teams in class 1.

Please don't get me wrong, I am not complaining, why should I? I am just trying to figure out some reasons like eveybody else is...

[Thrainer]

Lutz, that statement was concerning the seperate set of rules for class 1A and FSE, I believe, not class 1 in the UK and FSG.

From the IMECHE website (http://www.imeche.org/publications/agenda/archives/0110/Formula+Student++2010+oversubscribed.htm)
"Class 1A cars (that allow new and novel powertrain technologies, resulting in race cars with low carbon emissions) have been encouraged as well as those without an FS / FSAE competition in their home country."

That might explain some obvious preferences. I hope that DART will get invited after the deadline for payment.

Bemo, why do you think class 1A is favouring hybrid concepts? I've seen that the "carbon footprint" of electricity is now higher than last year, but you should be able to build a much lighter and more effecient car with electric drive.
What is for sure is that the carbon footprint of a carbon monocoque (irony?) is a huge drawback in the sustainability event - even though carbon fiber can be recycled nowadays.
A maximum of 400 V is totally reasonable from my point of view, not only for security reasons, but it's also enough to push a 1500 kg car nicely.

Regards,
Thomas

[Howy76]

Dear Luniz,

Your comment that preference has been given to UK teams is misleading, indeed 37% of the slots have gone to home teams, however if you look at another 2 of the largest FS/ FSAE events, at FSG for example, over half have gone to home teams and at FSAE Michigan 65% have gone to their home teams. This is hardly making it unfair for non UK teams to register at FS!

Lets not forget the IMechE are the event organisers and ask yourself, who are their stakeholders? Yes, they do feel it appropriate that UK teams have a slot at their own event!

It is also unfair to expect FS to accept entries primarily from teams who have been unsuccessful in registering for an FS / FSAE elsewhere. Formula Student has been going since 1998 and in that time there are many overseas teams who have been coming each and every year. Why should they be turned away?

There are teams who have entered class 2 and 3 in the process of building up to a class 1 team, why should they be turned away?

Given that Class 1A is a relatively new and increasignly popular class, how can you put a cap on entries here? All Class 1A entries were accepted.

There is a huge spread of teams who will be competing at FS 2010, including several rookie teams which should be celebrated.

Unfortunately there aren't enough slots for teams at many FS / FSAE events and so the organisers are never going to please everyone.

I for one am very grateful to all the organisers and volunteers who serve to put on terrific world class events for our young engineers.

Kind regards,

Howard

[Luniz]

Dear Dr. Ash,

as I was saying, I am by no means complaining about the selection, I just wanted to chime in to the "gossip" around the factors for nominating a team in the FSUK event.

I am also very grateful that there are people around that make these competitions the way they are - a fantastic eyperience for soon-to-be-engineers as myself!

In reply to your statement: As the teams for FSUK have been chosen by a committee, you can not really compare the outcome of this selection process with the list of registered teams of any other competition. No one else but the teams themselves had any influence on the outcome of the registration quiz at FSG for example.

I am also not by any means saying that it is wrong to give a large percentage of slots to home teams. In fact I even suggested that to the FSG steering committee last year, when my team failed to register. Your point concerning the stakeholders hits it quite precisely...

So again, please don't get me wrong!

Kind regards,