old dyno results

[Ahmed_9milli]

hey ppl,
can anybody give me some old dyno results of different engines( before and after the restirector) cuz i'm in the dark here, my GT-suite model gives me some serious shit and i need to validate this data...our engine is GSXR 600 06 by the way.
thanks a 10^6

[RollingCamel]

Why do one uses a dyno? For me I'd use it to test several designs for the intake and try to see the effect of changing certain parameters. Afterwards, I may try to simulate and validate the in order to learn.

Do you know how to build non-leaking intake and exhaust parts?
Do you know how to build proper fuel and cooling systems?

That is your challenge this year. And btw, you should check the engine's condition cause it was left with all kinds of fluids in it. Check if it needs a rebuild.

[Ahmed_9milli]

ok that's great akram...let's see the setuation over here.
we do not have an available dyno to test several intake models and if we had it, we dont have enough money to make several intake and exhaust manifolds to test them and choose the best for our engine.
so i have to simulate the engine using GT-suite and but all the data i have-not too much- in this model to get the results.
this process takes alot of time but guess what??
that's the only thing we have.
i really need the the dyno for the reasons you mentioned and more but we don't have it at this time.
all respect for the founder of AUM

[RollingCamel]

Simulation can go wrong and without the right experience it will be hard to judge the results.

We have been through this before and whatever we do will be pointless in real world if we can't fabricate right. Engineering is finding working solutions for your problems. Simulation or theory won't get the car running and then "may" complete any event.

In real world companies will take working products on time over nice research paper gladly, unless the research paper is on time to build a product.

How long or short should the runners be? I'd trust empirical data or subjective real time testing, especially when it comes with engines.

What is the design goals of the exhaust system for 1st year team?

1. Learn how to design and how it will be manufactured. What material and material source and the welder who will weld it. Where will it be bended and what die sizes are available?

2. Get it out of the way smartly.

3. Doesn't leak.

4. Noise under rule's level.

These are the basics things 1 st year student should learn, want to push more, then you may study the steady flow and may use the flow bench for testing. There is one but may need to convince the doctor to let you use it. Or build or get your own, many engine builders still use flow benches, check Guy Croft's website.

Tube metalworking ain't that expensive, if you weld yourself.

Yes the analytical knowledge and research is important and it what defines the best teams, they know how to build running cars already. New teams need to know this know how and build upon it, time is against you.

The current team has way more potential and definitely better than the previous one, learn from the previous experience so you don't have to repeat it.

Go learn how to weld, it will be a million time more beneficial for the team rather than using a simulation program cluelessly....are all the restictor designs the same?

With this knowledge next year you can delve deeper into non-steady flow analysis and then engine simulation.

[Edit: It is quite late so excuse my sleepy writing.]

[Ahmed_9milli]

thanks for ur reply and i want to tell u some thing.
all considerations u had mentioned r awfully important and hell yea i'm facing a serious problem with simulation results that's why i'm asking for some dyno results to validate mine.
and i'm talking about some dimensions to start , simulation programs help me to figure it out.
that's just the beginning but after that.... welcome 2 the real world.

[Sameh]

RollingCamel:

It's all about our greatest resource, time! The engine intake team has learned the principals very well so far, and it's their design process time. We've 3 months for that so for sure we've time to research over the materials and manufacturing techniques. Plus we've even more time in the assembly and testing so we've time to correct any errors, hopefully!

All what I'm trying to say is, your words are considered since you've first said them a year ago http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

What Ahmed is trying to do here is getting more specific about his design aiming for more convergent results and so, better design.

I don't have to remind you with team's success strategy http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

[Adambomb]

Hate to butt in, but I must add that RollingCamel is right. A perfect simulation of a system that you can't successfully execute is a complete waste of time. For example, CAN you make an intake and exhaust the doesn't leak? If you don't have that aspect planned out already (not to mention the other 50,000 "little things" that go along with making a car drivable and safe), you are doomed. Never forget that before you can finish first, first you must finish!

Engine simulation without dyno validation is a waste of time. Dyno tuning without engine simulation can still easily get you into the top 5, and engine simulation is by no means a prerequisite for winning. Also a dyno is not really that complex of a thing; all you really need is something to apply a load to the engine and measure torque and speed. In fact you really don't even NEED to measure torque and speed unless you WANT a hp figure, which again is not terribly important to making the car go around the track, and while nice at design judging is still not a show-stopper. If you WANT a hp figure, I do believe there are chassis dynos at competition teams can use for free (at least there used to be, at US competitions at least). If nothing along those lines can be bought, found, or jury-rigged, just get the car drivable early enough you can tune the engine in the car. That's what most people do with their street cars when adding aftermarket injection. For that matter, with only very basic instruments, like say a stopwatch, some scales, and a known distance, is there not a creative way to get a good estimate of power?

And time may be all you think you have, but in THE REAL WORLD time is the only thing you don't have enough of.

[RollingCamel]

There is a disease we (engineering student and graduates) suffer from, which I would call it "Designalis Epictus".

This type of thinking wastes time and makes one unable to focus on what is really important. There is a Hindi movie called "The Three Idiots". It had the greatest explanation of "what is a machine?". All though the film has quite some cheesy old jokes, and the stereotypical characters, for an engineering student I'd recommend you to watch it.

I think that I was close to lose my job which is a very good one because of this type of thinking. Now I'm more productive and more happy seeing satisfied customers.

[Sameh]

Adambomb: The topic is public, then anyone is welcome to post, and we really need it http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

RollingCamel:
Can't get what you really mean.


I think we're reaching a point here and I want your input. Should we purchase a torque sensor and forget about a dyno? It will be more simpler to attach and operate, but it's around 1/5 the price of a dyno. We're also seeking some accurate results and minimize human error.

[RollingCamel]

Originally posted by Sameh:
Adambomb: The topic is public, then anyone is welcome to post, and we really need it http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

RollingCamel:
Can't get what you really mean.


I think we're reaching a point here and I want your input. Should we purchase a torque sensor and forget about a dyno? It will be more simpler to attach and operate, but it's around 1/5 the price of a dyno. We're also seeking some accurate results and minimize human error.

Engine dyno is a testing and development device for your prototype. You need functioning prototypes 1st.

Tire data would be worthless if the fabrication and compliance wasn't in good control, plus it would not make your car run....just run nearer to the design's potential or increase the potential by design.

In other words, buying tire data before getting Carroll Smith books will not help you achieve the goal of getting a running car and finishing endurance. Vehicle dynamics will not make you finish endurance neither do engine simulation. Furthermore, a considerable part of the vehicle dynamics comes after you finish the car and check it's inertial properties and more.

To "hopefully" finish autocross or endurance in one piece you need to break your car several times during testing, fix it and hope for the best.

I don't know about the torque sensor but it too will not get your car running. Did you dissemble the engine to check it's condition yet?

Is your fuel circuit and water circuit already planned, with the parts 3d modeled and put in place?

What will you go through is practical problems that you will face and when that time comes you'll say screw vehicle dynamics and CG. Get the mechanics right and hopefully some of your theory will pass through.

Don't rush trying to get everything done in one year. Experience plays a huge role focus on what you should learn and achieve this year and believe me the 2nd year it will be much different. Plan and act as an ongoing team not just a once-in-a-time project.

[Ahmed_9milli]

Engine dyno is a testing and development device for your prototype. You need functioning prototypes 1st.
u got it ( functioning prototypes).
that's what we r trying to do and yes we will have a serious technical problems in the future i'm bretty sure of this but the tuning concept must be achived.

beside that i won't replace a real dyno test with some computer games i'm just truing to make proper prototypes.

Technical stuff is our next station. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


A perfect simulation of a system that you can't successfully execute is a complete waste of time.

u r the most welcome it's a public topic as sameh mentioned above.

that's right i can't depend totally on engine simulation cuz i'm sure that it's not an accurate operation.

u said that a real engine testing even without a dyno is the shortest way 2 achive ur goal and i will say u r right cuz i sufferd from CAE programs for long time but the situation i'm in is not cool,actually i'have 2 do this.

[RenM]

in order to get a simulation model that correlates reasonably well with the reality you will need to do a dyno run for yourself. Airmassflow, airbox pressure, intake and exhaust temperatures and brake torque are the basic parameters you will need to calibrate. Furthermore you will need to know all the geometries of your intake and exhaust system , valve flow coefficients (measured on a flow bench), valve lift and cam timings. If you are missing one of those parameters you will not be able to calibrate your model! So before you start fiddling around with a 1D Simulation, be sure to get the Data needed!

Calculating the rough length of your runner lengths by hand and then trying out different lengths on the dyno, is a much faster and better way considering the resources available to you.
If you do have the possibility to get a dyno, do it. Otherwise you have no means of comparing different configurations and it makes mapping the ecu a lot easier.

[RollingCamel]

1. If I were you I'd start rebuilding the engine.

2. Plan the fuel, oil and cooling systems with all the parts specified and placed in the 3D model with the plumbing.

3. Get an aftermarket ECU and run the engine on the default map. Ofcourse, the wiring must be done properly.

4. Design the restrictor, or re-buy the AT-Power and design the air box focusing on near uniform air distribution to the runners although it is more complex than that. You can design several plenum prototypes with different volumes and attachable runners to test different runner lengths.

5. For exhaust use Guy Croft's rule of thumb for radius sizes and other things, although I don't guaranty that his knowledge will hold the same way on motorcycle engines. Read the book anyway, it is a good read. The main important things is to route it smartly out of the way and weld it good along with the proper shielding and fixture.

6. Once the engine is ready and the car, test it and change the parameters you have control of and see what you can figure out.

Just be sure to have proper throttle feel and response. Oh, and the clutch is just freak'n heavy.

[Adambomb]

RenM hit what I was getting at a little better. Without a lot of those parameters, your simulation may as well be on a Baja engine. And if it were as easy to get those parameters as just asking on a forum, then EVERYBODY would have an awesome engine simulation.

On the other hand, if you just worry about some basic parameters like RollingCamel said, things like intake runner and exhaust primary length, plenum volume, etc., that will get you 90% there and easily enough to do very well.