Turbo questions for the experienced

[Matt N]

Several turbo related questions. To anyone who has actual experience with any of these units, advice and/or answers would be great.

1. Is there indeed an oil seal installation process for the GT12 or is that just a rumor? Does a seal exist? Is there any other way to cure the oil leakage problem (besides not using the GT12)?

2. Does the GT15V have a compressor shaft seal? (ie. will it burn oil like the GT12?)

3. Teams that use the IHI RHB3 (Cornell?) - where do you source the turbo? I cannot find distributors besides for stock rebuild applications for a Chevy Sprint Turbo - yuck.

4. Does anyone know of a tech support/FSAE sponsorship contact at Garrett/Honeywell? I cannot find one, but it must exist - even if its just an email address.

That's all for now. Real information would be much appreciated.

Matthew

[Matt N]

Several turbo related questions. To anyone who has actual experience with any of these units, advice and/or answers would be great.

1. Is there indeed an oil seal installation process for the GT12 or is that just a rumor? Does a seal exist? Is there any other way to cure the oil leakage problem (besides not using the GT12)?

2. Does the GT15V have a compressor shaft seal? (ie. will it burn oil like the GT12?)

3. Teams that use the IHI RHB3 (Cornell?) - where do you source the turbo? I cannot find distributors besides for stock rebuild applications for a Chevy Sprint Turbo - yuck.

4. Does anyone know of a tech support/FSAE sponsorship contact at Garrett/Honeywell? I cannot find one, but it must exist - even if its just an email address.

That's all for now. Real information would be much appreciated.

Matthew

[Kirk Feldkamp]

1. There is a normal bearing/shaft seal on the GT12. If you follow the instructions down at the bottom of the drawing, it says what max pressure the turbo should see. Make a little inline restrictor and it will solve 95% of the problem. That being said, you will still have some leakage (as we found), but it is GREATLY reduced. There is a carbon seal in the works for all future GT12s for FSAE. Talk to Cam about it for your next (or first in your case) turbo. The mystical carbon seal that you're always hearing about is a spring loaded pair of circumfrential carbon "pucks" that sit around the turbine shaft and provide a much better seal. We'll see how they work very soon... The Australian version of Honeywell Turbo Technologies first developed the prototypes for these seals. I think the Australian teams may have had the retrofit versions for quite some time. We (HTT in Torrance) now have a couple (2) retrofit with these seals that are now in service. We hope to have these in all the future GT12s that go to FSAE teams.

2. As far as I know, all the GT15Vs that have been sent to teams in the U.S. have the normal piston ring seal.

3. I'd call IHI and ask them. Talk to James up at Western Washington and ask him how they got theirs.

4. Um, me? I'm a actually a designer, not an application or product engineer. What kind of tech support are you looking for? The FSAE specific contact is Cam Thai. PLEASE FEEL FREE to PM me about this, and I can give you his contact info. I don't think he'd want me posting his email on here.

See everyone in a few days.

-Kirk

[James Waltman]

Matt,
Travis knows some of this stuff.

Kirk and I were setting up our GT12's at about the same time last year (I mean late 2003 I guess). He tipped us off about restricting the oil input. It did make a big difference but our engine guy was still uncomfortable with the amount of oil flow into the intake. During dyno testing we used a clear tube to connect the compressor to the intake and we could watch the oil flow. If we hadn't seen it we might not have worried as much.

Are you sure that Cornell is using the RHB3? We have an RHB5. We still don't have it installed yet so I don't know how well it works. Send me an email and I'll pass on some information about IHI turbos. We can talk in Detroit too.

Garrett Sponsorship info is here. (http://www.honeywell.com/sites/ts/tt/aboutus_formulaSAE.htm) When you get your turbos from Garrett you get contact info for tech support. This forum is probably a better place to find help though.

Kirk,
Are you going to be hanging out with the Berkley team this week? Give me a call if you still have my cell phone number and we can meet up or I'll try to find you in the pits.

[Kirk Feldkamp]

James,

Do you know if the RH3/4/5's have the normal thrust collar w/piston ring setup?

I will definitely be there! I am getting in to Detroit at 4pm on Wednesday. If you guys are going to be in town, give me a call (yes, I still have your # too) so we can all go catch a beer. I'm taking unpaid vacation for this, so I'm going to make the most of it! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

We never got a TON of oil into the plenum... but it was enough to worry about. I haven't heard back about the new seals yet, so we'll see.

-Kirk

[VFR750R]

Cornell used RHB5's for years, we have used an RHB3 but I think that was 1991. I've heard the RHB3 has the garrett style seals anyways. There is an RHB4! (which may have carbon seals but when I was researching them I got conflicting information from IHI) but it is Japan only and it has a huge leed time. The reason small turbos don't come with the carbon faced seal is the drag is higher reducing the efficiency on an already low efficiency turbo unit.

IHI's suck for FSAE anyway. They spool slow and you actually have to pay for them. Not to say GT12's are the only option but they are unbeatable for a team running turbos for the first time with a budget.

I talked to a guy at the PRI show last fall at Garrett and they said that nobody they knew did the seal swap. Aftermarket seals currently avaiable are too large for the turboshaft. I've heard of a place in the UK that does it...but probably rumors.

My current suggestion for any team thinking turbo next year is to include the cost of a single stage drysump to scavenge the turbo on the return side to the cost to run the turbo (and an electric water pump). I have seen this work now on two applications, one with a homemade pump and one with a bought drysump. Teams running dry sump...problem solved assuming they run enough scavenge stages to pull a vaccumm in the pan (good anyways).