CBR 600 F4i ignition problem

[Andres]

We are having a hard time starting our engine.
There is a electric problem, that is keeping our car stopped.

There is no ignition and no signal at the coils to ignite. When we crank the engine, there is a voltage drop of only two to four volts in the ground signal of the primary of the coils.

The engine check give us a failure of the ignition pulse generator.

Is someone can help us it wouldll be real good.

We checked everything on the service manual. And everything seems to be right. The ignition pulse generator, generates a signal of three volts when we crank the engine.

There is only sporadic ignition, if you take out the side stand signal.

[Ryan Schoffer]

using the stock ECU? - i hope you are using a piggyback if you are, because the stock maps are WAY too rich, and the computer doesnt have enough range for self adjustment to make up for it

did you take out the ignition swtich (key switch) and not put in the proper circuit to bypass the anti-theft system? - if not fire an email my way and i'll detail what you need to do

[Andres]

Yes we bypassed the anti-theft system, we posted the diagram to bypass it a year ago... the fuel pump charges, but there is no ground signal in the ignition coil primary, so there is no spark.

Yes right now we only have the stock Ecu connected

[Brent Howard]

Hahahahaha, that is great. The diagram that we used came from none other than Andres anyway. It was made by their engine guy last year and I asked him to send it to us.

Sorry though, I have no idea why your engine won't start.

Brent

[Andres]

thanks Brent, maybe Ryan can thank us now that he knows who did that... hehe

cýa men

[Daves]

Is there a kickstand sensor?

[Andres]

There is a side stand switch, that doesnt let the engine start if the side stand is down. But we bypassed it...

[Ryan Schoffer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andres:
Yes we bypassed the anti-theft system, we posted the diagram to bypass it a year ago... the fuel pump charges, but there is no ground signal in the ignition coil primary, so there is no spark.

Yes right now we only have the stock Ecu connected <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ah - well thanks for saving me a bit of time then - it worked perfectly with our setup (using power commander)

in order to get it started with the stock ECU, you will probably need to remove the restrictor and use the stock TB assembly, but your mileage may vary

according to the circuit diagrams i used to wire the car, the individual coil packs take a ground directly from the chassis. I would make sure they are grounded properly first.

after that, check both the cam pulse generator (located on the head near #1 cylinder - sticks out side at wierd angle) and the ignition pulse generator (comes out of the side cap on #4 side, covering flywheel/other bits) for the proper signal

if those arent your problems, then its either something else to do with wiring (although i would doubt it as its just 4 wires going from the ECU to the coil packs, and signal wires from the cam pulse generator and ignition pulse generator) or a bum ECU

sorry if the 'solution' is a bit long, as i am still a little unsure of your problem, other than no spark of course

thanks again

[El Mug]

HI there, do you have any idea of how should be the amplitude of the voltage signal of the cam and ignition pulse generator sensors.

Another thing, there are major variations between differents models of the f4i? We have a wiring diagram that is not coincident with the real wiring, that`s in the service check connector.

Thanks for the help but we already try everything even changing the ecu. Anyway if something else come to your mind post it.

See yall

[Jon @ Electromotive, Inc.]

Andres
The coils on the f4i have a common +12v and ground into the ECU. The same is true for the injectors. I setup the stock wiring harness and used the Honda wiring diagram The the side stand, clutch and engine stop switch should be bypassed. The last thing to make sure of is to connect the red wire from the bank angle sensor to +12. This had me pulling my hair out for 3 weeks. My first method was to simply bypass the relays for the fuel pump and coils/injectors, but there is a wire (can't remember which) that is pulled to +12 in the ECU by the relays. So it is best to leave them in. Once I had all this worked out, the engine started right up. It ran like crap because we had an injector that was clogged from sitting 2 years with fuel in it.

El Mug
According to the Honda manual, you should get at least .7v peak at idle. This obviously goes up as speed increases. I had an o-scope hooked up but never ran past ~3500rpm and saw peak of about 3-4v.

There are two differnet harnesses for the 01-02or03 generation. The only real difference is in the ignition switch. One has four wires and the other has six. Our system has the four wire switch and we found an ignition switch on ebay that had 6. I don't know much about the 6 wire switch but if you think that's what your system needs we can probably work out a sale or trade or something, email or PM me if interested.

[Jesus C]

Hey guys, we're trying to get a '03 CBR 600RR to run on the stock harness and ecu but running into a snag with the ignition. We're trying to bypass what is needed to get it running but no luck so far. Any suggestions to solve this problem would be appreciated. Thanks guys

~Jesus

[farides]

guys, currently we got a problem on our cbr600f4i ignition system.. i'm not sure where does the problem is but does no spark appeared.

I've done most of troubleshooting procedure as in manual where we managed to obtain a normal initial voltage and peak voltage. In addition, we also change to new spark plugs.. but still no spark at all ignition coils.

guys, do you have any idea? Is it because of ignition coil faulty?

thanks,
fe
malaysia

[Mikey Antonakakis]

This might be a stupid question, don't let it insult you... but how do you know there is no spark? In other words, how are you actually testing to see if there is spark?

[farides]

hmm.. i checked the spark by, pull out the ignition coil (already connected with spark plug) and touch it to the engine (ground), then try to crank the engine. I guess it is a common method..

anyway, how is your testing method if there is spark or not?

[Gaanja]

Which ECU are you using?? Try and get the waveform out of the crank and CAM angle sensor and post it. That'll probably give a clear picture of whether the ECU is picking up the trigger pulses properly.
I faced the same problem.

[Mikey Antonakakis]

Originally posted by farides:
stupid question?
I guess there is other 'good' word for you to used..
We are here to learn. Maybe i'm wrong.. Im sorry. tq

hmm.. i checked the spark by, pull out the ignition coil (already connected with spark plug) and touch it to the engine (ground), then try to crank the engine. I guess it is a common method..

anyway, how is your testing method if there is spark or not?
Okay yeah that's the same thing I do lol. I only asked because a surprising number of people with electrical engineering backgrounds forget to ground the plugs when they test them, in my experience. So that rules that bit out.

[Gaanja]

Electrical Engineers are'nt that bad you know... A sound Electrical Engineer would know how the spark plug works and how its grounded before he tries testing it would'nt you agree?? After all spark plugs are more electrical than mechanical..

[Mikey Antonakakis]

Originally posted by Gaanja:
Electrical Engineers are'nt that bad you know... A sound Electrical Engineer would know how the spark plug works and how its grounded before he tries testing it would'nt you agree?? After all spark plugs are more electrical than mechanical..
I was just joking, I was really just commenting on how we ALL (myself at least) have no common sense at times. Like my entire team trying to start our car with a dead battery, and fouled plugs, and checking everything BUT those two very basic things. The electrical engineer part was just for emphasis. I know next to NOTHING about that stuff and I am secretly jealous of their knowledge :P

[farides]

Originally posted by Gaanja:
Which ECU are you using?? Try and get the waveform out of the crank and CAM angle sensor and post it. That'll probably give a clear picture of whether the ECU is picking up the trigger pulses properly.
I faced the same problem.

Hi Gaanja,

Currently we are running a stock ECU. Sure, later i'll capture those waveforms and post it.

thanks a lot http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[farides]

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/sazukay/Crank02.jpg
Figure above: Crank sensor output waveform

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/sazukay/Cam02.jpg
Figure above: Cam sensor output waveform

Sorry, maybe the pictures are not that clear.

From that waveform, seem like the signal is not that bad.. but i'm not quite sure how the cam angle waveform.

Guys, do you have any suggestion?
Until today, we can't start the engine.. even MIL didnt show anything (I mean the FI light stay lit because service check connector is short cct)

[Gaanja]

hey,

i dont think the crank angle waveform is right. I cant see a clear transition from the arm voltage to trigger voltage. Did you check whether the crank wheel is healthy and free of any damage? The CAM seems ok though. It would help if you have a simultaneous capture of the crank and cam waveforms

[farides]

Hi Gaanja,

Have a look at this video capture,
http://s73.photobucket.com/alb...rent=25122008019.flv (http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/sazukay/?action=view&current=25122008019.flv)

the top is the crank waveform and bottom is the cam.

btw, do you have a correct capture of crank and cam waveform for the stock sensors? If so, I really appreciate if you could shared with me.. either post it here or email to me directly.

Thanks

[Gaanja]

ok... the waveform still doesn seem right..

check this thread out... http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/t...125607348/m/19510613 (http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/125607348/m/19510613)

i have posted the capture out of a motec. But the CAm has a lot of noise... The crank signal is perfect... I solved the noise on the cam later but i presently do not have a capture... I am not on campus... Il try and post one asap... The CAM signal is the blue line and crank is the yellow... The signal on your CAM should be the inverted form of this without the noise... It should go to a low peak then a high peak and stabilise at the mean point

[farides]

hi guys,

Gaanja: Thanks a lot for your advice. So far, I checked the crank and cam wheel, both seem in good condition. I'd photo captured if you like to see it. After that, we tried crank the engine but still there no spark.

Btw, I just noticed that the MIL (FI light) just stay lit without blink at all even I disconnect the sensor connector (let say MAP sensor). In the manual said the MIL will blink once whenever loose or poor contact on MAP sensor connector.
guys, do you have any suggestion on what should we do next? We really don't know what the problem is.. hope you guys can help us. =)

Fyi, we had bypass the anti-theft system and fuel pump is working good.

[Marshall.Hagen]

I know this may sound strange but...

We have three different F4i ECU's. Only one works with each respective engine. For example, our 2004 F4i ECU cannot start our 2001 F4i motor.

[farides]

Marshall: Yes, the ecu only suitable for a specific year.

This may sound strange but till now, we still cant find where the problem is.
For those experienced it before, hope that you guys can share with us or do you guys have any other suggestion?

Thanks a lot..

[Marshall.Hagen]

Last year we had troubles getting the F4i to run on the stock ECU and throttle bodies.

I would suggest triple checking the kickstand, clutch, and engine stop switches. It took us a while to get them all sorted.

If the F4i you are using has an unmodified trigger wheel and sensor, I don't see how that could be the problem.

You have the original harness and electricals correct? We had problems with starter interference on the coils, so double check to make sure the coil harness is routed far away from the starter and starter ground.

[stu.pattison]

Might be worth checking the original wiring diagram for a tilt switch - most bikes have them and it'll cut the engine (or stop it from starting) if it's tilted too far. Safety thing incase the bike is dropped, and it's separate from the sidestand switch. Probably not your problem, but it's surprising how often the most simple things are overlooked - ours was disabled during early engine testing (taped down), and unknown to us, a new first year untaped it to see what it was, and left it dangling minus the tape....... Needless to say, heads were scratched as to why an engine that was running 10 mins ago now refused to start!!!

[farides]

hi guys. Its been a long time I'm not update on this forum since I had to focus on the other stuff.

Yet, we are still struggling to fire-up the engine (with stock ecu), no spark. One thing I noticed, MIL indicator shows 12, 13, 14 and 15 blinks that means something wrong on the injectors side. We did troubleshooting as in manual and everything is good. But somehow I dont know why still there's no spark.
anyone here have any suggestion/opinion?

marshall: checked those thing and it working well.
stu.pattison: fyi, we bypass the sidestand switch

[Grant Mahler]

Originally posted by farides:
hi guys. Its been a long time I'm not update on this forum since I had to focus on the other stuff.

Yet, we are still struggling to fire-up the engine (with stock ecu), no spark. One thing I noticed, MIL indicator shows 12, 13, 14 and 15 blinks that means something wrong on the injectors side. We did troubleshooting as in manual and everything is good. But somehow I dont know why still there's no spark.
anyone here have any suggestion/opinion?

marshall: checked those thing and it working well.
stu.pattison: fyi, we bypass the sidestand switch

The vast, vast majority of the time in FSAE this is because people don't bypass ALL the sensors CORRECTLY. Check them, check them again, check them again again. Have someone else check them. Have someone who knows what they are doing check them.

[blacksun]

andres, i am from Vnzl to i got a problem whit my 2001 cbr 600 maybe you guys can help me, please let me know thanks in advance