M400 problems

[Nuno Cabete]

Hi everyone .
My first post, i hope that someone can help me.
We are trying to put a Motec M400 working in a CBR600RR of 2008 but we are having a lot of problems.

Its needed put some additional trigger wheel or the origin its ok??? With the old a Megasquirt we have but we dont need the cam sensor and with Motec its need.

One of the pictures its from the signal of crank sensor taked from the oscilloscope but i thing the signal its not very good probably because of the interference from original trigger, what you think.

Can some one give some advise for put that working.

http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/6760/originalid.jpg
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/1958/doubletrigger.jpg
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/1627/27032010175.jpg
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/4154/motecm400.jpg

[Nuno Cabete]

Hi everyone .
My first post, i hope that someone can help me.
We are trying to put a Motec M400 working in a CBR600RR of 2008 but we are having a lot of problems.

Its needed put some additional trigger wheel or the origin its ok??? With the old a Megasquirt we have but we dont need the cam sensor and with Motec its need.

One of the pictures its from the signal of crank sensor taked from the oscilloscope but i thing the signal its not very good probably because of the interference from original trigger, what you think.

Can some one give some advise for put that working.

http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/6760/originalid.jpg
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/1958/doubletrigger.jpg
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/1627/27032010175.jpg
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/4154/motecm400.jpg

[Tom W]

Firstly if you don't already have them go to the motec website and assuming you go to the Australian version select downloads and then seminar notes. These are definately worth reading if you haven't already.

I don't know a lot about the F4i engine so I don't know if the stock cam sensor setup is useable Careful checking of the seminar notes would let you work it out though.

Your ref/sync capture shows a pretty significant rpm fluctuation during cranking, I don't know what battery voltage you were at during cranking but if your battery voltage was getting down it might explain why one of the errors you have is a Ref low level error. You might also want to adjust the position of the sensor, if it can get closer to the trigger then that might increase the voltage enough to get rid of at least one error.

You probably also want to check, double check and triple check your CRIP value to make sure it isn't the reason you are getting a failure to get ref/sync synchronisation.

You probably also want to check your arm and trigger voltages on both the Ref and Sync. From memory the scope function in the hundred series ECU's shows the voltage, it would be worth checking if in the slower sections of the cranking cycle you are not getting a high enough voltage to trigger a count. Not really sure what would be causing a noise error, I think most likely that would turn up if you are getting to the arm voltage but not the trigger voltage in certain situations, if you are running a CDI it would also be worth making sure that none of the ignition cables are anywhere near the REF sensor cable.

Basically from looking at your error list I would take a guess that you can solve your problem through adjustments of:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>Checking your CRIP value
<LI>Check your arm and trigger voltages for both ref and sync sensors
<LI>Adjusting the distances between the sensors and triggers
[/list]

There is also a forum on the MoTeC website. It is monitored by the MoTeC guys that really know how all of these things work. If you continue to have issues its probably worth putting questions up there as well.

[Kirk Feldkamp]

The ref signal is clearly funky based on your oscilloscope picture, so if I were you, I'd focus there first. I highly doubt you're going to need the 36-1 ref (crank) trigger in this case. With the original even 12 tooth ref and single tooth sync, you should have no issues... assuming they're aligned correctly for the Motec to use them. The goal is to have the sync trigger as close to halfway in between two of the ref teeth as possible. With 36-1 teeth, that's lot trickier than getting between 12 evenly spaced teeth.

-Kirk

[Adambomb]

One thing I like about Motec is you effectively have nearly around-the-clock tech support. I'm pretty sure I remember calling the Australian tech support at something like 3:30 AM! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Tom W]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kirk Feldkamp:
The goal is to have the sync trigger as close to halfway in between two of the ref teeth as possible. With 36-1 teeth, that's lot trickier than getting between 12 evenly spaced teeth.

-Kirk </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A particularly good argument for running a hall effect sync sensor. Plus you get twice as many options for which edge to use.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Adambomb:
One thing I like about Motec is you effectively have nearly around-the-clock tech support. I'm pretty sure I remember calling the Australian tech support at something like 3:30 AM! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Damn you and your time difference!!!

[Nuno Cabete]

I already read the seminars before.
When i take that image from the oscilloscope the battery are low but i already try with them recharged and the error are the same.
With everything i read, I thing i have to test the crank sensor because i thing that its not ok, see the all cables because i thing are interference in the signal, put again the 36-1, calibrate the TPM because one of the error are because of that.

Any one now more literature like the seminars of the Motec about the Motec ECUs. I will post soon new developments.

Tanks

[Tom W]

What is your ref arm voltage?
What is your ref trigger voltage?

What ref voltage are you actually getting at what rpm?

Do you have an oscilloscope image that includes a voltage scale?

[RenM]

have you tried the original 12 tooth trigger?
the motec supports it.

[Ben K]

You definitely need the cam sensor. We run the MoTeC M400 and it just needs to see where the lobe is. Very simple to set up and put in...just look at the motec catalog to see some of the sensors they sell. Call them up if you have questions--they are INCREDIBLY helpful.

[TMichaels]

I also strongly recommend to get in touch with the Motec support. Usually they respond fast and are very helpful. It will probably save you a lot of time.

Regards,

Tobi

[Nuno Cabete]

The problems cont but work without oscilloscope its difficult, just today have one again. But i am read more carefully the seminars of Motec.

Right now like you see.
Sys 1 (http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/6720/80713788.jpg)
Sys 2 (http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7005/25372996.jpg)
Errors Image (http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/7915/31150825.jpg)

Some errors cont the same.
My ref values are hole zero, have to change right.
Right know i have the original 12 tooth trigger, and the cam sensor mounted to.
I already contact the Motec support by email email and post in the Motec forum, but nothing no one said nothing at almost one week .

So right now what the steps that i should do??

[JamesWolak]

Nuno Cabete,

Like the others pointed out it looks like your CRIP might be set wrong. But if you are sure it isn't, have already checked if its 360 degrees off (most common issue), and you're still having issues then try changing your ref trigger voltage and sync trigger voltage. Change one at at time until the noise error (or any other error) goes away from the corresponding sensor.

MoTeC actually specs out the spacing, width, and thickness of what an idea trigger wheel for their system. There is a document on their website with these specs(I would link it if my post wouldn't get delayed a week). By using this i assume you wouldn't have noise issues. But you can probably get trigger wheels that are not to their specs to work (I have).

If all this fails use the MoTeC Ref Sync Capture tool and save the file. Make sure you battery is charged when doing this because if your battery is low your cranking speed will vary and be hard to read. Once you get this you can call MoTeC and they will have you email them your capture file and help you out. If there is no MoTeC support centers open you can just email them.

Also:
Another question they will have is if your trigger for your sync and missing tooth on your ref happen at the same time. That is something that you want to avoid.

[Gaanja]

Nuno,

make sure that you use shielded cables for the crank and cam sensor. Otherwise, interference can wreck havoc. I learnt it the hard way.
And, just follow what tom and james have said... it should get the engine running

[TMichaels]

Using shielded cables usually has very little effect, use twisted pair instead, since the signal is differential this may significantly increase signal quality.

Regards,

Tobi

[Rizzo]

Disagree with TMichaels statement. I see from the o'scope trace that you are using two VRS's for cam and crank sensors. I agree that they are two wire sensors and can be hooked up in a differential setup, but they are not used in that configuration on the Motec M-series ECUs. They are merely grounded to the analog ground plane. With that said, make sure these signal wires are shielded and the shields are grounded. Try to keep high current wires such as the starter wires on the opposite side of the car from your ECU signals.

[TMichaels]

Rizzo, you forced me to search my "Wave propagation on conductors"-book...but now I have a resilient answer:

The signal of variable reluctance sensors, usually used for crank- and camshaft, is always differential. Connecting one of the signal lines to ground potential makes it asymmetric, but it still remains differential since the wave is propagating between the conductors not in the conductors (strange, isn't it?). Therefore radiated interference entering a twisted-pair cable will affect both signal lines identically until the wave reaches the input circuits. That is why the potential difference of the differential signal remains unchanged even if one of the signal lines is grounded at the ECU if twisted pair is used.

Conclusion: Use twisted-pair for VR-sensors, it will significantly increase signal quality. Shielding will have a minor effect in this setup.

Sorry to all the mech. engineers for boring you, but it had to be said http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Regards,

Tobias

[Nuno Cabete]

Sorry not participate this last times but star work and just have time to try to put the engine work at weekend.
Can some one said what angle should a put at cam sensor???
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/4696/cbr600refsync.jpg

But the problem with sys continuing, i thing probably i don t have the cam sensor activated.
Its possible???

[BryanH]

Change sync sensor edge polarity to 0

[Gaanja]

Try a crip value of 425.. worked for us...

[JamesWolak]

Nuno,

Are you using the 36-1 tooth or 12 tooth?

Ethier way your REF SYNC Mode shouldn't be 22...

[Sarun seree]

Hi,

I face with the problem with you.

Can u recoommand me? on set up for REf and SYNc setup



Hi Cabete,
Your scope capture does not have a whole 720 degrees of crank rotation but it looks like there is only one sync tooth? If there is only one sync tooth and you have 36-1 on the crank the ref/sync mode needs to be "5" for "one missing twice per cycle", this will automatically use the ref and sync sensors. The crank teeth need to be 36, The ref sensor is magnetic and needs a falling trigger, the sync is a magnetic and needs a rising trigger. If you can send a ref/sync capture that would be good......screen captures are really not very good so attache the file.

Was the scope capture done with the spark plugs in?

The placement of the sync tooth with reference to the crank is fine, you do not need to change it.
MoTeC Research Center Melbourne, Australia

User avatar
MarkMc
MoTeC

Posts: 232
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 12:28 pm

I found on motec au forum,Is to work?


thanks

SArun