Electric Water Pumps

[BeaverGuy]

I'm trying to gather information on electric water pumps as we may run one due to locating our drysump off of the water pump shaft.

I know that the Davies Craig pumps are faily popular when using an electric water pump but have you used anything else?

Have those using the EBP found the current draw as shown on the performance curve to be correct? It seems odd to me that the largest current draw is at the lowest pressure when with other pumps it is the opposite.

Also, does anyone have the performance curve for the EWP? I've emailed Davies Craig but my emails bounced back because their mail box was full.

[Akos]

I have found the EBP to be pretty unreliable. They seem to fail without warning. I had one fail, when I opened it up it was full of water. There was also one that was DOA.

The EWP is more reliable, but I had a lot of problems with the seals eventually leaking when used with water. I think they might have fixed this in the new design. The EWP is a bit oversized for fsae application though, never mind that it can suck up to 10A depending on your flow/pressure.

I would stick to the OEM automotive units, such as the ones from Bosch.

Cheers,

Akos

[B Hise]

I have found the EBP to be pretty unreliable. They seem to fail without warning. I had one fail, when I opened it up it was full of water.

How was your pump mounted? We've had similar problems with the EBP when it was mounted more or less rigidly. A little foam padding and many hours of driving later the pump is fine.

Bryan

[jonno]

Never had a problem with either of the davies craig models (ewp or ebp) the ewp uses several times the power though. If you spend tme carefully designing your cooling system, the ebp is fine for an FSAE engine ie really low coolant side pressure drop (no bends in any hoses)

[BeaverGuy]

My biggest concern with the smaller pumps is the considerably lower flowrate. With that lower flowrate comes a larger delta T and we are concerned that a larger delta T could lead to localized hotspots in the engine and potentially overheating.

[Bowtie Man]

I have a Dedenbear unit that we used for like 10 min. on the dyno that I can sell I believe the model is in this link. http://www.dedenbear.com/TXTwp.htm#WP3
email me at umgroen0@cc.umanitoba.ca if anyone is interested.

Luc

[Perry Harrington]

Consider using an RV water pump. These are continuous duty diaphragm pumps and can be had with viton parts to pump nasty stuff. They are usually around $60-100, run from 12v and have high flow rates and adjustable pressure switches. They'll run 45-60psi no problem and take 2-5 amps IIRC. I bought one to make a TIG torch cooler. I used a 1.5l water bottle as an accumulator post pump, worked pretty well.

The pump I have is a Shurflo, here are the specs:

Model 2088-422-444
Flow 2.8GPM
Volts 12
Amps 7.0 max
Pressure 45 psi

Use 10amp time delay fuse. Thermally protected 90deg C max.
Motor duty cycle will vary with load and ambient temp. 2 year warranty.

Shurflo:
Cypress, CA (800) 854-3218
Elkhart, IN (800) 762-8094

--Perry

[flybywire]

I was looking into this as well.

The "intermittent duty" rating on the RV pump spec sheets kind of makes me not want to go down this road. These types of rating usually mean that the motor is thermally a few sizes too small and will overheat if you run it continuously. Add onto that the heat transfered into the motor by the above boiling cooling water flying through the pump and I'm out.

At least I know the Davies Craig & Dedenbear pumps have been demonstrated to work under these conditions. Any more ideas out there?

[BeaverGuy]

I've found that the Bosh pumps are fairly common but haven't been able to find the higher capacity pumps. Their lower capacity pumps are available on many Volkswagen models but I don't think they would be appropriate for our application unless two or three of them were used. Which is possible because they draw less than 1 amp each. I have verified that Bosch part number 0392020024 is also part number G3050-60840 which is the most common on the Volkwagens.
However, I would like to find Bosch part number 0392022003 or 0392022002 as they have higher flows and pressure potentials, but have current draws from 2.5-4.5 amps.

[flybywire]

HAHAHA It looks like the Bosch PN 0 392 020 064 (the big one) is used as an auxiliary water pump on the Lotus Exige (but only the model with A/C?).... That's a big help. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Edit: Actually, maybe this pump is used on the Audi 200QT on the ~1991 model too. Looks like VW likes to use these pumps as a run on pump to cool the turbo bearings after ignition shut-off. Also possibly found on the Peugot 205 I (15B) 1.9 Diesel whatever that is. -- Looks like it might be a different pump actually.

Edit#2: Okay, try three, how about G3050-28906 (Porsche 1986-91 944). Looks like Bosch part 0 392 020 064, complete with little round connector, can anyone confirm this? (Someone must have a 944...)

[JPaolicchi]

Hi,

I work on electric water pumps at Bosch. We make (3) electric water pumps. Two are smaller pumps normally used to increase coolant flow for heater performance and one higher flow pump used to cool super chargers etc.... I believe Cornell uses two of the smaller pumps in series. Send me a personal message with an e-mail address and I can provide technical specs and a limited amount of sample pumps. I would not recommend diaphram type pumps for this application. I can't imagine they would be reliable. Bosch uses a magnetic couple to completly seperate the water side of the pump from the electronics.

[magicweed]

Would the larger volume pump happen to be the one that is used in the Ford Lightning's intercooler system. I was looking at swaping out the mechanical pump for this piece. The current draw looked to be acceptable, and with our Performance Electronics ECU it could be run in parallel with the Fuel Pump, to give priming and constant coolant flow when running. I'm very interested in further details, and possible pumps for testing.

[BeaverGuy]

I have verified that the Ford Lightning pump is Bosch part number 0 392 022 002. Here is the info for that pump. Lightning Water Pump (http://www.boschmotorsandcontrols.co.uk/elektromotoren/aggregate/wasserumwaelzpumpen/0392022002/index.htm)

[James_C]

Hi everyone,

Just reviving a dormant discussion.... what other make/model of electric water pump do teams use?

I would really appreciate any kind of comments on their performance (reliability, lifetime etc.) from teams that have used such pumps in the past.

[Jersey Tom]

I wish I knew off hand what model of Davies Craig pump we used.. but we had 2 setup in parallel. Just recently one of them died without warning.

[Mike Claffey]

1 Davies Craig Electric booster pump should do the job.

[Maverik]

Just a warning, do the math and proper heats analysis and sure a davies craig EBP will work, but you'll have fairly drastic temperature differences across the engine. I would rather have a higher flow rate (and more heat transfer) than a band aided system with a very low flow rate and low heat dissipation capability. Q=mdot,cp,deltaT.... the only way to account for the change in mdot is to increase deltaT which can lead to drastic engine thermal differences.

[ad]

Good thread,

Davies Craig EBP are great... light, low current draw

Saying that we have only had two in 5 years fail, one on a dyno and the other at comp. We also check them (individually) before each run.

Id like to echo the point about compounding the pumps, it suits our (wollongong) turbo engine well and we able to move to 3/4" lines all round drastically reducing weight.

Have not tried the EWP but it was considered. But due to volume and current draw it was rejected. We did trial one EBP but the flow rates were inadequate. All the data you require can be found on their website.

I think so long as you follow the installation instructions (however vague they may be) you should be fine for the rated 1500 hrs. I have seen several mounted the wrong way, also dont forget the temperature rating, it may help to move it to the colder section of the cooling system (i.e. similar to the stock pump location within the circuit)

[James_C]

The dedenbear pumps seem a bit heavy (Wp3~3.25lbs)

In 2003 our single Davies Craig pump (likely the EBP) kicked the bucket during endurance, ever since, we've been running the stock CBR pump.

So we're pretty concerned about the reliability of electric pumps.

Has anyone used these pumps in the past, care to comment?

Stewart EMP (http://www.stewartcomponents.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=ElectPump)

Brusa MR1200 (http://www.brusa.biz/products/e_mr1200210.htm)

Turbonetics (http://tunerpartsdirect.com/Store/Product/ItmItem.aspx?ItemId=77430)
Buehler (http://www.buehlermotor.com/cgi-bin/sr.exe/newsviewus&NewsItem=2)

[Michael Hart]

Originally posted by flybywire:
HAHAHA It looks like the Bosch PN 0 392 020 064 (the big one) is used as an auxiliary water pump on the Lotus Exige (but only the model with A/C?).... That's a big help. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Edit: Actually, maybe this pump is used on the Audi 200QT on the ~1991 model too. Looks like VW likes to use these pumps as a run on pump to cool the turbo bearings after ignition shut-off. Also possibly found on the Peugot 205 I (15B) 1.9 Diesel whatever that is. -- Looks like it might be a different pump actually.

Edit#2: Okay, try three, how about G3050-28906 (Porsche 1986-91 944). Looks like Bosch part 0 392 020 064, complete with little round connector, can anyone confirm this? (Someone must have a 944...)

I'm pretty sure that the 944 came with a mechanical waterpump

and by pretty sure, I mean that about a year ago, I had to replace my 924S' waterpump to prevent it from destroying the timing belt (and causing a catastrophic meeting between the pistons and valves...). Perhaps this part is an auxiliary pump for the 944 turbo or 944 S2? Possible, but neither of those models were produced from all of 86-91, so I don't know...

[Michael Hart]

More on topic, we ran an electric waterpump this year, and it worked well but was a huge drain on the electrical system and we believe that it was the source of instability we experienced with some of our electrical and electronic systems

[wyso0017]

I was wondering what you did for covering the hole left by removing the mechanical pump? Is there anything available for purchase?

[Mikey Antonakakis]

Originally posted by wyso0017:
I was wondering what you did for covering the hole left by removing the mechanical pump? Is there anything available for purchase?
I have no experience here, but usually clay epoxy works well for sealing various holes cheaply and easily (like the stuff you use to seal cracks in your pool, it comes in a stick).

[Discretely elite]

Originally posted by wyso0017:
I was wondering what you did for covering the hole left by removing the mechanical pump? Is there anything available for purchase?

Put in a dry sump pump.

I suppose you could JB weld an aluminum plug in. You may be able to find a freeze plug in the correct size too.

[dbbob1987]

on our last car we used a bosch water pump # 392 020 039 and that seemed to work out fine, no overheating issues at all. They come on the Mk3 and I think Mk4 VR6's which is convinient so in case one fails i can just grab the one off of my car http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Brian Barnhill]

Originally posted by Discretely elite:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wyso0017:
I was wondering what you did for covering the hole left by removing the mechanical pump? Is there anything available for purchase?

Put in a dry sump pump.

I suppose you could JB weld an aluminum plug in. You may be able to find a freeze plug in the correct size too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We've had success using a freeze plug in the past. We've also machined our own plug when we couldn't find a freeze plug to fit in stock anywhere.

[Adam J.]

Originally posted by dbbob1987:
on our last car we used a bosch water pump # 392 020 039 and that seemed to work out fine, no overheating issues at all. They come on the Mk3 and I think Mk4 VR6's which is convinient so in case one fails i can just grab the one off of my car http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

That's the first one that I thought to use. Do you know where I can find the flowrate, design life, and power consumption of this pump?

[RANeff]

That lightning pump is only rated at .3 bar, does anyone run this pump, and does it amke enough pressure?

[Mike Cook]

Still using the davies craig pumps. Work good as long as they are around the lowest point of the system. If you let them run dry for very long they will die.

[Fab]

Hello all

By using a flowmeter on a 600 CBR engine I found out that the coolant flow was around 65 L/min at around 12450 RPM.

Therefore electric water pumps like the Davies Craig EBP or the Bosch ones are really weak in terms of flow rate. And actually that's normal: They are supposed to boost the coolant flow or to cool very specific systems, and not an entire engine.

The EWP reaches 80L/min, which is obviously way better. And as far as I understand, the controller that can be provided does the job, so no need to worry about the mass flow function of the temperature or what...

But as always the major issue than is the current draw.

So, usually how does the teams do to solve it? I was thinking of mounting 2 booster pumps (Such as Bosch or EBP) in parallel, so we're still under the original value when reaching the max RPM, but it's closer, and the radiator and the fan choices could maybe solve the difference. I saw some posts talking about mounting it in series, but it won't increase the flow rate...