B-Teams

[Nam Tran]

I was recently approached by some current students at my alma mater about the logistics of starting a B-Team at the university. At first, I tried to get them away from the idea since it's tough enough to build just ONE running car a year, but they did provide some compelling arguments to start a second team.

Michigan registration is full and this school's primary team would compete in FSAE-West. You can't enter two cars in the same competition so that leaves FS-UK/Europe and FSAE-Asia.

My question for you guys is can you see any logistical problems in doing this? Are there potential rule infringements? Obviously, costs skyrocket and you have a much smaller talent-pool to draw from so you'd be short on resources. They are pretty adamant about doing this and right now I'm just trying to play devil's advocate. Your thoughts please...

[Nam Tran]

I was recently approached by some current students at my alma mater about the logistics of starting a B-Team at the university. At first, I tried to get them away from the idea since it's tough enough to build just ONE running car a year, but they did provide some compelling arguments to start a second team.

Michigan registration is full and this school's primary team would compete in FSAE-West. You can't enter two cars in the same competition so that leaves FS-UK/Europe and FSAE-Asia.

My question for you guys is can you see any logistical problems in doing this? Are there potential rule infringements? Obviously, costs skyrocket and you have a much smaller talent-pool to draw from so you'd be short on resources. They are pretty adamant about doing this and right now I'm just trying to play devil's advocate. Your thoughts please...

[Jersey Tom]

Your sponsoring/funding/talent pool issues should be enough to shut this one down.

[js10coastr]

How would you justify two different designs to the judges? Why did one team go one way while the the b-team went another?

You might want to check the rule book... I thought there might have been something against entering two cars from the same uni.

[JR @ CFS]

Here at Chalmers, the team enters one car in FS UK and one in FSAE-West, using the prior years car in the FSAEW. The remaining members of the team from the previous year take care of the project, but gain no credit towards their degree. It is simply for fun...that weeds out the hangers on pretty quickly! As for money...good question! It is up to the second team to lay out a budget, justify why it should happen and then beg borrow and steal to get the money...but of course, the current years team gets priority http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[flavorPacket]

hang on. you guys at chalmers get school credit for FSAE?

[/threadjack]

[Kirk Feldkamp]

I mean no disrespect, but based on UC Irvine's performance at FSAE West I'd recommend getting one car together and working before making two teams out of the available talent. Granted it looked like way too many cooks in the kitchen, but there has to be a better way to manage the program so that all those people can contribute. Keep it simple.

-Kirk

[JR @ CFS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by flavorPacket:
hang on. you guys at chalmers get school credit for FSAE?

[/threadjack] </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Also at my previous University. We are all part of a scheme call CDIO (www.cdio.org) It can lead to problems with people there simply for the sake of getting the points, but so far so good http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Nam Tran]

Just to clarify, I am not and will not be involved with the group in question, they're merely coming to me for what seems like a blessing.

turbotwig, no offense taken. In fact it was one of the points that I brought up first.

Let's assume that money isn't an issue (it's always an issue, but let's just assume it isn't). Can 5 dedicated guys build an FSAE car and get all of the paperwork done? It seems like on every team of 25 I've been on, there were only about 5 or 6 dedicated people anyways. These kids certainly have more motorsports and engineering experience coming into the project than my teams ever did. Can they do it and will they learn?

In terms of rules, it's not a covered topic. I'm certainly not saying that if it's not in the rules, it is allowed, just that I don't think it's covered since the scenario has not come up. Rule 2.2.3.3 seems to only apply to FSAE and FSAE-West (one vehicle per university per competition) so it doesn't seem to impact the idea of a B-Team. In any classification, a B-car would be classified as a first-year vehicle since it would have a completely new frame (unless we're talking about F1 and Super Aguri). I don't see why it would be disallowed, but I'm going to tell them to e-mail the rules committees anyways just to make sure.

I'm still not sure how they're going to fund this thing. For the most part, our/their cars have been self-funded anyways, but now you have a lot less wallets to pay for it.

Thanks for the feedback. I welcome more.

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

we have done it with five...and my gpa shows... you need more ppl to do all the small jobs, or it just beats the crap outa the senior members that should be working on the complicated issues

[JerryLH3]

My GPA doesn't show it. Grades of "W" don't affect my GPA. But that's another subject entirely...

[CMURacing - Prometheus]

Someone from Virginia Tech care to comment? I believe they have two teams, but they're also on a two-year design cycle. So one team designs the 2008 car while the other builds the 07, etc.

[formula_wally]

I meet a few guys in East that were on their Sophmore teams. I think have a tierd structure like that would actually help the team, rather than parallel programs.

Again it comes down to time and commitment. Who would really want to be on a Formula B team. Thats a bit embarrasing I think, a little jab against you saying your not good enough for the real show.

[JerryLH3]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CMURacing - Prometheus:
Someone from Virginia Tech care to comment? I believe they have two teams, but they're also on a two-year design cycle. So one team designs the 2008 car while the other builds the 07, etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We talked with one of the VT guys at length while he was at Sebring this year. They are on a two year design cycle. I imagine they have plenty of funding to pull it off and help isn't a problem as you have to apply to be on their team.

I think in a case like this, where the two teams are working on cars for separate years would be of the most benefit. It definitely requires a lot of manpower though. This would be near impossible at a lot of schools.

[kwancho]

I was just thinking about this today. My idea on the topic is that you take your old car, and take off things like the ECU, shocks, brake calipers, uprights, diff, and wheels, but leave a mostly functioning car (frame + engine, mostly). The new group of freshmen or new recruits can spend their time making the car driveable again. This way, they can learn some of the more interesting design stuff on their own time, and be able to make mistakes without it affecting getting to competition.

[RiNaZ]

well ... if you're going to take an old car ... might as well try ...

www.formula-hybrid.com (http://www.formula-hybrid.com)

[Chris Boon]

I could never see a B-team paying off. Funding is the big issue and people that are commited to the cause for an entire year, not just at the start of semester when everything is cruisy. If you have two teams that are efficiently working it could make tracking down parts and odds and ends a lot more easier because you have the knowledge pool of two teams, however I could see two teams vehicles being very similar because they would discuss different design issues.

Also what does your school think of it. If we could actually claim some credit points for FSAE I think it would make it an infinitely amount easier to get a car together that is designed, built and tested to the degree teams want. otherwise as it seems to always become, its a balance between gpa vs car performance, both seem to suffer and we all just get sh*tty.

Thats my couple of cents worth on the issue,
Chris

[Ian M]

We have a 197,297,397, and 497 (senior project) class here at the University of Evansville in southern Indiana. We get credit for that class for being on the FSAE team. Everyone has to work on a project whether it is a senior design project or a class project. The nice thing is if you get on the FSAE team you don't have to do the rinky-dink class project. THe downside is that you end up spending like 5 times as much time, but if you love it, as I do, it is worth it. We have to write a 100 page or so proposal, design report, and final report, but that does help us get ready for the competition papers.
I think it is a great idea to get some real-world experience because so many young engineers come out with an immense amount of book smarts, but can't fabricate anything and therefore design things that are way more complicated and expensive than necessary.

We can't even keep one team organized or funded, two sounds suicidal!!! 12 or so guys on the team but like most schools only 5 or 6 do anything.

[HokiedOut]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Someone from Virginia Tech care to comment? I believe they have two teams, but they're also on a two-year design cycle. So one team designs the 2008 car while the other builds the 07, etc.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Our 2-year program here at Virginia Tech just started last year. We have Senior and Junior level teams with each team having leaders, subteam leaders, etc. The main goal, of course, is that the Juniors get to learn from the Senior team's mistakes and get to see how they perform at competition, and what the actual competition consists of so they can design their car around that.

That said, the only way we can pull off having two teams is with very good marketing and PR. We have a person on the Senior design team who's sole position that is, as well as a marketing subteam. This way, we can get over a hundred applicants to the team each year in the fall and get people started as sophomore volunteers or juniors straight onto the junior team. As far as funding, the Senior design team leader has the say on where the money goes, and the majority is spent on the Senior car. The Junior's dont actually build competition parts until their senior year (cause they're basing their design on the Senior car performance) so any expenses are in testing ideas. The exception to this is the chassis which gets started earlier.

Hope that helps clear things up...

Chris Barbour
VT Alum, FSAE 04-07