To all FSAE members. Help me out!

[David]

I'm very curious to know how did you people learn all about this stuff.

I own a 94 Honda Civic and I have become very insterested in doing a mid-engine placement, the fabrication of hubs, push rod inboard shocks with unequal length double wishbone ( if thats how its pronouced) and the strong know how on grades of metal.

I've always been told if I have a power to make a difference why not put it to good use?

[David]

I'm very curious to know how did you people learn all about this stuff.

I own a 94 Honda Civic and I have become very insterested in doing a mid-engine placement, the fabrication of hubs, push rod inboard shocks with unequal length double wishbone ( if thats how its pronouced) and the strong know how on grades of metal.

I've always been told if I have a power to make a difference why not put it to good use?

[Garlic]

Now that we have the internet people forget there is this thing called a library with books on almost every subject, not only that, but they are actually factual and have good sources unlike a lot of internet sites.

Engineering classes help but pretty much everything our team learned that was worthwhile we taught ourselves.

[GTmule]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...94 Honda Civic....mid-engine placement...inboard shocks... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Always a good use of time and money.

Seriously, if you wana know the math type stuff of it all, get a statics and mechanics of materials book, and go from there (assuming you know physics, etc).

Of course for the same amount of money (or less), you could buy and build a Westiefield/C-ham/7 or Cobra kit of some variety, and actually have something worth having, when it was all over with.

[David]

?


Well I been to serveral libraries and book stores http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif but I could not find anything of the such on this.

Can you tell me the book names?

[GTmule]

You need to go to a college bookstore at a college w/ an engineering dept, or a library at said school. That, or, go to amazon abd buy: "Statics and Mechanics of materials" by riley, sturges and morris used, I'm sure it's cheap.

[Denny Trimble]

Carroll Smith's "Engineer to Win", "Tune to Win", etc. are good books to start with, especially if you haven't had any engineering classes yet.

Also, you should really think about what you can do with a mid-engine, inboard-shock civic. Car classes for autocross and road racing (I don't know anything about drag racing) are pretty strict on which modifications can be done. You'd be up against Caterhams, etc. Not easy competition http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[MikeWaggoner at UW]

Go for it. I'm all in favor of people doing $20,000+ of modifications to a $3000 car (in time or money) to end up with a car worth $1500.

There's also a book called build your own race car for under 250 pounds (or something like that, it's british) that has some good practical info as well. They've got a group on yahoo called locost to talk about projects like this.

[Cement Legs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MikeWaggoner at UW:
Go for it. I'm all in favor of people doing $20,000+ of modifications to a $3000 car (in time or money) to end up with a car worth $1500.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HAHAHAHA ROTFLMSAO (stinkin)

PS add the following books to your list
- calculus
- linear algebra
- design of machinery

well now we are up to $20 450. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Erik Whoa]

Check out Car Craft and Hot Rod magazines. These are made for the enthusiast without the engineering background and are great to start out with. There was another magazine that was similar to all those ricer mags, except it had some engineering merit. It might have been called Automotive Engineering, but I think not.

[rjwoods77]

For the same money you can get a nice 2nd gen mr2. But if you are honda dork then sink your money into a worthless car. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But seriously. If you are going to go that far then you should consider a platform worth doing it with. Somehting with rwd and midengine. Basically a mr2 or a fiero. Or if you really want to be cool then buy a ferrari 308. They go for like 12k now and it wont be a converted, done up piece of shit. The 2nd gen mr2 will take a bunch of different motors and the fiero the sky is the limit.

[Denny Trimble]

Oh wait, here's the SHOGUN (http://www.fordfestiva.com/gallery/grassroots_festiva_shogun.htm)

http://www.fordfestiva.com/multimediaandfun/gallery/grshogun/My%20Pictures0004.jpg

http://www.fordfestiva.com/multimediaandfun/gallery/grshogun/My%20Pictures0015.jpg

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

sweet, nice wide body kit....ya, the internet is great, I was searchin around, found a forum about some 14 year old kids that wanted more power outa there 5hp go karts, read everything from a "smog pump supercharger" to jello, but I did come across a guy that build a fuel injection system, custom engine management software, and threw a turbo allo on an 8hp engine and had a video if it runnin pretty good, he was selling some of the parts so I bought the turbo and a crx powersteering pump from him for $40 bucks shipped http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[James Waltman]

Mike Waggoner is actually being serious. He was doing something similar when he was here. He was building a full custom car. Aluminum monocoque chassis with mid-mounted Acura drivetrain.

It is entirely possible to build a car from scratch (or do something wild like you are proposing) without a Masters Degree. Denny is right, buy the Carroll Smith books. Read them all before you buy any advanced books.

If you want a fast car this might not be good place to start. If you want to do it because you like weird stuff then - to each his own.

Denny,
Have you seen our mid-engine SHO powered car?
Viking 7
http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/James/Web%20Pics/Viking_7/Rear-3-4.jpg

[David]

I'm not for production mid-engines cars.
As they say, ''if you want something done right you got to do it yourself''

Thanks for all your anwsers I appreciate the suggestions, pictures and support.


So what else do I need to know? (cad/cam ?)

[The guru of guru's]

y dont you become an engineer and learn how to do it all?

[Denny Trimble]

Or, if you want to do it yourself, and do it right, it will take 10 years.

CAD is easy, just think "bling bling" and your dream car will emerge from your printer. Cut and fold, tab A into slot A, off you go.

Sorry for the cynicism, but your expectations don't seem to match up with your knowledge base at this juncture. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[David]

I do have plans to become an engineer, I would like to start familiarize myself before I jump into things. (I'm starting college soon)

Denny,

I dont know much on the subject as you can tell. This is my goal for this car, I realize that this stuff anit easy and thats what attracts me to it. It's gonna be a long term thing for me as I go to college, but I intend to learn everything.


I'm not looking for a DYI or anything like that. I'm looking for guidance. So can I get my read-on or what?

Fiber reinforced plastic and/or carbon composites books anyone?

[Denny Trimble]

David,
I'm glad to hear you're planning on going to engineering school. Try to join a student design project, especially FSAE or Mini Baja, and get your hands dirty.

Until you close the loop from conceptual design to detailed design (CAD modeling, analysis, and revision), manufacturing, assembly, and testing, even on the smallest of projects, you'll be underestimating the work that goes into your project.

You can also pick up student copies of SolidWorks for $90 nowadays. Go through the online tutorials and start modeling stuff, get to learn it inside-out, it will pay off.

You don't need our permission to start reading...

[GTmule]

The other thing you should do is volunteer for a while with a team that is racing a proper race car in SCCA. Either CSR, DSR, FC, FF, or FA should do nicely (FM sucks), you'll learn a ton just being around real racing, and seeing what it takes, plu you'll get to study a car.

[Nihal]

David: go check out www.grmotorsports.com (http://www.grmotorsports.com) . Many people therer have done similar to what you want to do. That SHOGUN car you saw above was done for around 2000 dollars for a competion that Grass Roots Motorsports has every year. If you help someone there they may help you learn the fabrication and such.

[fade]

is this jessie james? those mods will make your honda quicker than an Enzo.

[Courtney Waters]

Come on guys, give the guy a break. Show him how much you really do know and give him some reasonable answers.

David, what you propose is a huge undertaking so don't expect it to be done in 6 months or for $500. If you do it all yourself it will require quite a few resources (tools and materials) that don't come cheap, provided you really do "do it right." That said, I'm not going to knock the idea since I've entertained similar ideas myself (though not with a Honda). For the nay-sayers out there, not everyone builds a car to make money or have something faster than the latest offering from Ferrari. Come on, this forum is composed of a bunch of people who are building a car for zero profit and quite often it will cost way more than you could sell the end product for. Never mind how much freakin' time you spend on it. So why do it? For the experience, for the fun, to be different, tired of your girlfriend, whatever http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

How do we learn all this stuff? I can only speak from my own experience, but I bet it's quite similar to many others. Our engineering courses teach us the very fundamentals but they are seldom geared towards automotive design/engineering so we have to find other people in the know or self-educate ourselves. And that pretty much all comes down to reading. Internet forums are a great place to share ideas and get quick answers but don't take what everyone says as gospel. You should be able to back up all of your design decisions, not say "well I did it cuz this dude on the internet told me to, but I don't really understand why." A knowledge of CAD is a tremendous help. I can't even imagine designing a car on paper. Of course, since you're starting with a complete vehicle the number of parts you have to design or manufacture will probably be quite a bit less than a FSAE car. Learning CAD is still a very good idea. If you can't "borrow" a copy somewhere, many companies offer student licenses of their software for cheap. If you don't use CAD for design, at least grab a drafting/technical drawing book and learn some of that. If you have to have any custom parts made by a machine shop you will need to be able to communicate your ideas (and dimensions!) clearly.

To find reading material, the SAE (sae.org) bookstore has a ton of automotive engineering material. You can find a ton on Amazon and sometimes your local bookstore will have some stuff (usually less technical, more hands on). University libraries are an exellent place to check out as well. There was a thread on this forum some time ago about reading material. John Bucknell posted up an excellent FSAE Reading List which I'll repost here. I would add to the list any other books this guy has listed on his site: http://www.kimini.com/Reference/index.html

That guy's site is definitely worth checking out for inspiration for your project. It's a total ground-up car so it is probably more work than what you're proposing, but similar. Plus, it's mid-engined and Honda-powered.


Here's John's reading list:

Prepare to Win, Tune to Win, Engineer to Win, Drive to Win by Carroll Smith
Classics on car preparation, chassis tuning, structures and driving. Carroll Smith was one of the most respected race engineers ever.

Performance Handling - How to Make Your Car Handle by Don Alexander
ISBN 0-87938-418-2 Motorbooks International, 1991
Good primer on how and why cars handle.

Race Car Engineering and Mechanics by Paul Van Valkenburgh
ISBN 1-55788-064-6 HP Books, 1992
Equivalent to Carroll Smith's work by someone who had done it all. Much discussion of components and systems and ideas on how to go faster. One of my favorites.

Race Car Chassis - Design and Construction by Forbes Aird
ISBN 0-7603-0283-9 Motorbooks International, 1997
Excellent frame design book, only one like it I have seen.

Racer's Encyclopedia of Metals, Fibers and Materials by Forbes Aird
ISBN 0-87938-916-8 Motorbooks International, 1994
Comparison of racing materials, and what makes them good or bad alternatives for various subsystems including brakes and driveline.

Race and Rally Car Source Book by Allan Staniforth
ISBN 0-85429-848-7 JH Haynes & Co. Ltd. 1992
Another complete guide to race car development. Concentrates on dynamics of suspensions and much comparitive data.

The Anatomy and Development of the Formula One Racing Car from 1975 by Sal Incandela
ISBN 0-85429-714-6 Haynes Publishing Group, 1990
A how and why top level racing cars look like they do today. Great drawings and good explanations of what works and doesn't.

The Anatomy and Development of the Sports Prototype Racing Car by Ian Bamsley
ISBN 0-87938-586-3 Motorbooks International, 1991
Similar to the above, but with sports car bodies.

Vehicle and Engine Technology by Heinz Heisler
ISBN 0-7680-0237-0 SAE 1999
A huge reference book, an amazing amount of drawings on just about anything related to chassis or powertrain. This and his first book - Advanced Engine Technology will have nearly every subject explained.

The Design and Tuning of Competition Engines by Philip H. Smith
ISBN 0-8376-0140-1 Robert Bentley, Inc. Sixth Edition 1977
History of competition engines (first edition 1954), and how and why they got that way.

Four-Stroke Performance Tuning by A. Graham Bell
ISBN 0-85429-275-6 JH Haynes & Co. Ltd 1993
A straight tuning book, what works and what doesn't converting engines for competition use.

High-Performance Automotive Fuels & Fluids by Jeff Hartman
ISBN 0-7603-0054-2 Motorbooks International, 1996
Overview of fuels and lubrications, and why we use gasoline as a fuel.

The Unfair Advantage by Mark Donahue (as told by Paul Van Valkenburgh)
ISBN 0837600731 Bentley Publishers, 2000
A history of Mark Donahue's racing career. Mark basically invented chassis tuning, and made every mistake new race engineers make, worked through it and eventually became one of the greatest racing drivers ever.
If you read one book on this list, this should be it.

And recent additions:

Ferrari Formula 1: Under the Skin of the Championship-Winning F1-2000 by Peter G. Wright
ISBN 0-7680-1341-0 SAE, 2004
A jaw-dropping technical look inside a modern F1 car. Cutaways, test data, technical drawings, everything. $72 for members.

Driving Ambition: The Official Inside Story of the McLaren F1 by Doug Nye, Ron Dennis, Gordon Murray
ISBN 1852278412 Motorbooks International, 2000
I just love this car, pictures are amazing. This car is twelve years old?! $66 from Amazon

[jack]

how about...

Race Car Vehicle Dynamics by Milliken and Milliken
ISBN 1-56091-526-9
kind of a "bible"

The Shock Absorber Handbook by John C. Dixon
ISBN 0-7680-0050-5
may not be to relivent to your project

Formula One Technology by Peter Wright
ISBN 0-7680-0234-6
you should be reading this right nowhttp://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

...ok back to excel...

[David]

I really appreciate this Courtney W. and Jack http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

How about books on fiber reinforced plastics?

[Denny Trimble]

Oh, and I'd like to add, I wasn't kidding about the cut-and-fold technique. I think Jack knows all about it... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://usmb.net/albums/Paper-Models/impreza_wr.sized.jpg

I wish they imported the IMPLEZA to the US...

[David]

This technique is use for planning?

I thought there were called impreza not impleza


If this one is a joke I'm not getting it http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[James Waltman]

Denny,
Did Travis give you that engineering drawing? I let him onto our server a while ago and it looks like he must have stolen Jack's concept for our next car.

David,
"Cut & Fold"� is a fabrication technique for composites. We have been doing it for a while now. As it turns out I have already rambled on about it here on the forum (http://fsae.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=763607348&f=125607348&m=31010882711&r=31010882711#31010882711) .
Where will you be going to college?

[David]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by James Waltman:
Denny,
Did Travis give you that engineering drawing? I let him onto our server a while ago and it looks like he must have stolen Jack's concept for our next car.

David,
"Cut & Fold"� is a fabrication technique for composites. We have been doing it for a while now. As it turns out I have already rambled on about it http://fsae.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=763607348&f=125607348&m=31010882711&r=31010882711#31010882711 .
Where will you be going to college? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


University of Central Florida.

Thank You.

[jack]

AAAAH my secret design! revealed!

actually, everyone is going to have to wait untill '06 to see the fugly tub http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

..another stupid tube car for this year...

[prelude]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Denny Trimble:
Oh, and I'd like to add, I wasn't kidding about the cut-and-fold technique. I think Jack knows all about it... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://usmb.net/albums/Paper-Models/impreza_wr.sized.jpg

I wish they imported the IMPLEZA to the US... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just printed that.

[John Bucknell]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jack:
how about...

Formula One Technology by Peter Wright
ISBN 0-7680-0234-6
you should be reading this right nowhttp://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

...ok back to excel... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To hear Peter Wright tell it, he/Lotus came up with every innovation in F1 in the last thirty years. I'm using his skirt design for my hover/sucker car though http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Daves]

" . . .when the car is done, one or more of the following scenarios will occur:

Pushing it out of the garage for the very first time reveals that in your excitement, you neglected to put in brake fluid. This causes your car to coast down the driveway, across the street, and into the neighbor's yard -- the neighbor who is upset about the loud banging sounds and blinding blue-white light coming from your garage late at night.

Pushing it out of the garage for the very first time reveals that you have the steering rack installed such that a right turn is left. (This can actually happen.)

After getting it all done a friend casually says "You know, for all that work and money, you should've just bought a used Viper,"� and you agree.

After spending months making the perfect design decisions, people tell you how they would have done it, and you realize their ideas are superior to yours.

After putting it into gear for the very first time and popping the clutch, you realize your custom shift linkage cause Reverse to be where First should be.

After doing all the calculations, including multiplying in your safety factor, the very first pothole you hit causes a wheel to break off.

At the first event you enter, you are squarely beaten by a Honda Civic driven by a kid wearing baggy pants, crew cut, and backward baseball hat.

You take your car to The Big Event. You notice some guy looking at your car, shaking his head, and you realize it's Carroll Smith. He comes over and casually asks, "Is this yours?"� "Um, yes... sir."� He asks, "Why did you build it this way, what were you thinking, and this, this here, it's all wrong, and that over there is in single shear. Didn't you read any of my books?"�

In spite of all this... I pressed on... besides, the odds of meeting Carroll Smith must be really low..."

-- from http://www.kimini.com/Design/index.html

[Courtney Waters]

Dave, search amazon for "fiberglass" or "composites" and you'll find all sorts of stuff.

[gug]

speaking of "borrowing" software, did you realise that some exceptionally irresponsible person has put solid edge (a very good CAD program) onto a peer-to-peer network called overnet? just by going to www.edonkey2000.com (http://www.edonkey2000.com) and downloading the client, anyone can get access to solid edge and a license number generator? shocking...

[David]

http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Really, all of you thanks for giving me this advice and info.

[GTmule]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gug:
speaking of "borrowing" software, did you realise that some exceptionally irresponsible person has put solid edge (a very good CAD program) onto a peer-to-peer network called overnet? just by going to http://www.edonkey2000.com and downloading the client, anyone can get access to solid edge and a license number generator? shocking... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I heard that SolidWorks, an even BETTER CAD program is also on there.......shocking.

[David]

Fluid Dynamics.
Intake Tube -&gt; intake manifold resonance tuning?

[Matt N]

Back in the old school days, my dad's hot rod buddy built a reverse-steering car. They did drive it for a while - hehe....

Carroll Smith doesn't watch which way the driver is turning the steering wheel, does he?

Matt

10 hours of hw to do - isn't Rockstar great?

[CMURacing - Prometheus]

I met a guy at a local autocross who had a mid-engined 1984 FORD ESCORT, 2.2L and all. he was lapping near the front of his group, which included some fsae rip-offs (formula 500, its a 500cc two-stroke snowmobile engine...)

[Chuck Dean]

It's funny that you guys gave this guy such a hard time for wanting to mod a civic - as if Hondas are worthless.

At a couple of the autocross events I went to this year, one of the fastest cars was a Honda CRX.

[Harry]

Man, I'd say the best reply was the one you got on Carroll Smith. Read Tune, Engineer, and the Design to win books and you'll be set. You'll also have a basic course in engineering materials. So if you want to go into engineering, so that, but dont expect to be able to do all that to a civic without 10+ thousand dollars. Plus, we all learn for a least a couple years to do some of the stuff you're talking about.