Engines for FSAE

[arohit1911]

Hi
First of all congratulation for ETS,GFR and Bath for California.

1) I would like to know even though around 80% teams use either Honda CBR600 or Yamaha R6 still both these company do not sponsor or sell engine as a separate part. Is there any specific reason for that?

2) I also do not see any reason why cannot teams collectively make that happen, as was done by creating TTC for tyre data. It will be a really helpful especially for teams who do not have legacy to get easy early sponsors and try out their scarce money on some random person selling engine online(which might be fake).

I will really like to get some info on this topic.

Rohit Arora
IITK Motorsports

[Some Guy]

I was under the impression that Honda DID sell crate motors. I know that Suzuki (what we use) will not.

If i had to give a reason my guess is probably some sort of insurance or liability malarky, followed by the fact that it simply may not make any financial sense at all to do so.

[Ben K]

This is definitely something that I've thought about. The idea that 10 teams each could go to Suzuki, Honda, and Yamaha and say -- "Look we have this huge group of students who want your motors. Make a path at maybe some kind of a discounted price and people will more likely use your engine and be more involved with YOUR brand." It sells MORE motors and keeps brand loyalty. It is also a great marketing point that their engines stand up to race conditions. Not entirely a bad idea.

On a side note, I especially wish Suzuki would actually sell their engines separately as well @Some Guy.

Ben



Ben

[StevenWebb]

what happened to waiting on the side of a twisty mountain road with a big stick like the old days?

streetbike 4 engines are almost a dime a dozen over here because inexperience people buy them, spend most of the time idling around and go into a truck the first time the throttle is opened. and a dented streetbike is almost worthless so theyre sold.

450 dirtbikes on the other hand are usually bought by the experienced guys, who spend the whole time at WOT. occasionaly they crash, but they keep getting used until the engines are dead.

If you've got your mind set on getting a fresh one from the factory i wouldnt be looking at a japanese manufacturer- they would not want to disrupt their production line just for us. possibly try factory race teams as they might have some barely used engines around

p.s. http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/t...600868/m/31420213941 (http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/412600868/m/31420213941)

[Some Guy]

Racing teams come and go all the time. Teams that have closed up or may be changing manufacturers can be an excellent source of equipment.

For us the motors arent too bad, the GSX is priced like the Honda stuff, which depending in where you are very inexpensive. As said with the dirt bike motors, we looked into finding an LTR450 motor, and they were going for easily double the price of the GSX, in fact we found it to be the same with most singles. It is a simple matter of not many people total dirtbikes/quads the way sport bikes get totaled.

[Bemo]

Originally posted by Ben Kolodner:
This is definitely something that I've thought about. The idea that 10 teams each could go to Suzuki, Honda, and Yamaha and say -- "Look we have this huge group of students who want your motors. Make a path at maybe some kind of a discounted price and people will more likely use your engine and be more involved with YOUR brand." It sells MORE motors and keeps brand loyalty. It is also a great marketing point that their engines stand up to race conditions. Not entirely a bad idea.
You should be aware how many of these engines are built every year. A couple of FSAE engines isn't enough for the Japanese manufacturers to disrupt their processes.
Neither America nor Europe are interesting recruiting areas for them, so I don't see why they should have any interest in a collaboration with FSAE teams.
And as mentioned by a lot of people here already, at least the 4-cylinder engines are available for reasonable money...

[V-Twin]

Hi all,
I work for a private racing team, we're currently developing an engine specifically designed for FSAE competitions. We would like to know your suggestions about this topic, any kind of suggestion as you could be the users of our product.
Some detail: it's a V-Twin, 600cc (still under optimisation), crankshaft is ortogonal to gearbox so that the shape is pretty compact (common choice on formula car). We decided to design a 4 speed gearbox and to leave chain transmission instead of gears, so you can have more opportunities to design your vehicle.

Guys, we would like to know your point of view and to receive constructive suggestions, to know if we're going in the right direction, tell us the typical budget you set aside for engines and what you would like from this engine. Please, avoid replies as cost=0$ or torque=350Nm!

[Lorenzo Pessa]

I'm not an engine guy but the first thing I would like to know is the weight of this engine.

Two years ago I saw a Mahle 3 cyls for FSAE purpose exposed at Hockenheim. I think it was developed with Aachen team and I saw it also mounted on Esslingen 09 car. I don't know what was happened later but I never heard it more. Maybe some others could be more precise.

I can't suggest a price (we are a lucky team that never bought an engine), I think you can't sell it at a price too high compared to an used japan 4 cyls. With top teams investing time and money to hybrid and electric, I fear your market is going to be smaller.

If you are planning to be a competitor of Aprilia 550 you only need to be sure your engine taken off the crate last more than 20 minutes.

Have you planned some backup markets for you engine?

[MechanicalChris]

If engine sponsoring was going to occur, it would of happened in the 80's when everything was about to boom (computer controls), well...I guess for bikes that didn't happen until fairly later on.

I personally, as much as I would like to receive an engine for peanuts from honda and go bananas with R&D, simply can't see it happening, it's not smart or a financial gain on their behalf, they're not really getting much out of it by sponsoring us, FSAE is only really known to a select handful of people, they won't get that "oh look they can handle racing conditions" out of it....do you really think Honda need FSAE to prove that? LOL. Senna and his years must've been a failure for them!

Point is, would be cool, but nah.... can't see it happening.

Just like MoTeC, great product, nearly everyone uses one, but they know they are the best, so why should they give stuff out for free? At least they discount it..

[Mbirt]

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/9284/dsc0058cf.jpg

[Jon Oneill]

In terms of engine cost, we currently run the yamaha R6, and spend around $3000 for a new engine for our car (used usually).

I couldn't see us moving to a different engine until it was a proven, reliable package though. Our main justification with sticking to the R6 is reliability, so we would want to see significant reliability from your engine before we made the switch.

In terms of what I would like to see, I'd be most interested in a weight vs performance vs fuel usage. I would also want to see the performance throughout the rev range (aka. tourque & power curves). If I saw considerable improvements from this info, and the engine was reliable, we would definitely think about making a change.

Once this data was made available, then cost discussions could definitely be more productive.

[V-Twin]

Hi guys,
thank you for your feedback, we really appreciate it. I've already read about the Mahle engine, it's a nice project, but seems its length and weight are not so friendly for a fsae car. The estimatd dry weigth of the engine (based on 3D models) is 35kg, I'm working to try to reduce it a little, but for sure our aim is the reliability.

I would like to focus a little on the gearbox, internally we're discussing if we can reduce the the gearbox from 4 to 3 speeds. Do you think it could be a good choice or it could affect the performace, for example during the acceleration test?

[Bemo]

It's hard to say anything about the number of gears without knowing the torque curve of the engine. In general I'd say it's possible to do well in acceleration and on track with only three gears, if the rpm range of the engine is wide enough and the ratios fit in it very well.

Try to do a simple simulation of the acceleration event with gear ratios and the torque curve of the engine (just make a wild guess for the overall vehicle mass - 200kg would be a good start).
This will give you quite some information if 3 or 4 gears is the better option.

[RenM]

Originally posted by V-Twin:
Hi all,
I work for a private racing team, we're currently developing an engine specifically designed for FSAE competitions. We would like to know your suggestions about this topic, any kind of suggestion as you could be the users of our product.
Some detail: it's a V-Twin, 600cc (still under optimisation), crankshaft is ortogonal to gearbox so that the shape is pretty compact (common choice on formula car). We decided to design a 4 speed gearbox and to leave chain transmission instead of gears, so you can have more opportunities to design your vehicle.

Guys, we would like to know your point of view and to receive constructive suggestions, to know if we're going in the right direction, tell us the typical budget you set aside for engines and what you would like from this engine. Please, avoid replies as cost=0$ or torque=350Nm!

FSAE Teams are usually not very wealthy, so you really have to deliver an engine that is worth the price compared to the bike engines available.
Bike engines are already at a high performance level, i do believe that with the right concept you can at least achieve the same performance level and realise a better integration into your car (not with a V-Twin however). However i dont think that this can be done with resonable cost.

Something hat also has to be considered are spare parts. They are perfectly available for bike engines and at a rather resonable cost. For a custom engine it wont be sufficient to provide x engines but you also have to provide spare parts.

[whiltebeitel]

Originally posted by V-Twin:
Hi guys,
thank you for your feedback, we really appreciate it. I've already read about the Mahle engine, it's a nice project, but seems its length and weight are not so friendly for a fsae car. The estimatd dry weigth of the engine (based on 3D models) is 35kg, I'm working to try to reduce it a little, but for sure our aim is the reliability.

I would like to focus a little on the gearbox, internally we're discussing if we can reduce the the gearbox from 4 to 3 speeds. Do you think it could be a good choice or it could affect the performace, for example during the acceleration test?

For a great engine, some teams wouldn't mind spending up to 10k for a lightweight engine (65lbs or less neglecting manifolds and wiring) that produces power on par or better than the Ape. Breathing through the restrictor, much more can be gained looking for low end torque than screaming top end.

[Mbirt]

Why not a horizontally opposed twin similar to this:
http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/t...=101100563#101100563 (http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/125607348/m/112101343?r=101100563#101100563)

Its CG would be low and I think it's the packaging dream teams have fantasized of for some time. Evenly spaced induction events would allow less plenum volume at a given torque level. No balance shafts are required. If the stroke is short and the piston/rod package is lightweight, the rocking couple effect should be a non-issue in a racecar.

I spent a snowy winter day brainstorming ways to make this engine with as many existing parts as possible. A 61.5mm stroke crank from a BMW R45/R65 can pair with cylinders/pistons/heads from more modern 250/300cc thumpers for several combinations near 600cc. Choose a top-end donor with a SOHC supported by ball bearings to eliminate the need for pressurized oil in the heads. There are also combinations that allow it to be air-cooled if there is any weight reduction to be had there.

Just my $0.02. The availability and strength of the BMW crank is questionable.

[Adambomb]

Originally posted by Mbirt:
Why not a horizontally opposed twin similar to this:
http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/t...=101100563#101100563 (http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/125607348/m/112101343?r=101100563#101100563)

Its CG would be low and I think it's the packaging dream teams have fantasized of for some time. Evenly spaced induction events would allow less plenum volume at a given torque level. No balance shafts are required. If the stroke is short and the piston/rod package is lightweight, the rocking couple effect should be a non-issue in a racecar.

I spent a snowy winter day brainstorming ways to make this engine with as many existing parts as possible. A 61.5mm stroke crank from a BMW R45/R65 can pair with cylinders/pistons/heads from more modern 250/300cc thumpers for several combinations near 600cc. Choose a top-end donor with a SOHC supported by ball bearings to eliminate the need for pressurized oil in the heads. There are also combinations that allow it to be air-cooled if there is any weight reduction to be had there.

Just my $0.02. The availability and strength of the BMW crank is questionable.

+1

IMO this sounds like the most feasible option, using as many standard components as possible not only cuts a huge amount of R&D and fixed costs of production out, but also means more replacement parts that are readily available at the local parts store. And that base layout looks good for FSAE.

[df_fsmb]

Regarding the original topic - in the end the cost of the engine itself is not too big. Used block, absolutely fine for our purposes, is much cheaper than a Motec, for example. We got our 2008 Honda CBR 600 with all the perifery except the ECU for 1400 EUR (in USA, that would probably be under 1000 EUR) and then spent 2500 on M84+advanced functions... So perhaps we should focus on Motec to give FSAE more special offers, not engine makes http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[vandit]

Originally posted by arohit1911:

1) I would like to know even though around 80% teams use either Honda CBR600 or Yamaha R6 still both these company do not sponsor or sell engine as a separate part. Is there any specific reason for that?


The original intended purpose of the engine that they produce is to be inside the vehicle that they take responsibility and liability for. From the production point of view, i think each engine produced is supposed to be associated with a vehicle and the production numbers are all very rigid and almost non negotiable.

Plus, these previously mentioned engines gained their trust in people because of the performance of the whole vehicle that original manufacturers marketed and delivered. An engine is a power unit, you can do whole lot of other things if it is available on the shelf. We still do whole lot of things by using it second hand but somewhere in those fine prints the original manufacturer is safe from legal and insurance issues.


Originally posted by Lorenzo Pessa:
Two years ago I saw a Mahle 3 cyls for FSAE purpose exposed at Hockenheim. I think it was developed with Aachen team and I saw it also mounted on Esslingen 09 car. I don't know what was happened later but I never heard it more

That engine had serious reliability problems. Plus, the unit had integrated drive-train and the team wanted to move in the direction of separate engine and drive-train. It was a right decision after all.

[Ash47]

Originally posted by Mbirt:
Why not a horizontally opposed twin similar to this:
http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/t...=101100563#101100563 (http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/125607348/m/112101343?r=101100563#101100563)

I spent a snowy winter day brainstorming ways to make this engine with as many existing parts as possible. A 61.5mm stroke crank from a BMW R45/R65 can pair with cylinders/pistons/heads from more modern 250/300cc thumpers for several combinations near 600cc. Choose a top-end donor with a SOHC supported by ball bearings to eliminate the need for pressurized oil in the heads. There are also combinations that allow it to be air-cooled if there is any weight reduction to be had there.


Check out the University of Auckland's Facebook page. There are some renders up there of something similar that I have been working on. Some of you may know that for a few years now our team has been making our own engine and transaxle. Originally the idea was to make a V-Twin with transaxle and to use a 450cc single cylinder engine as a stepping stone to the V-Twin. But instead the V-Single (as it's referred to by the team) took off instead. This was mainly due to lack of development resources for the V-Twin.

There has been a 'working' prototype for the V-Twin for several years now. The engine is basically two Yamaha YZ250F engines joined together at the crank. The crankpin has been lengthened 18mm so two conrods can be attached. This prototype was running back in 2007, it got about 4 hours running time on the dyno before the coupling blew up. Since then there have been several attempts at getting the V-Twin program up and running again but always collapsed before it got momentum because the V-Single still needed the attention and resources. This year being my last year in FSAE before I graduate, I really wanted to see the V-Twin project to some form of completion so I've basically started my own development wing of the team to complete this engine.

The original V-Twin crankcase was essentially just two bearing blocks for the crank and something to bolt the head to. There was no starter motor, oil pumps, water pumps etc. Also, both heads were facing the same direction in that in the middle of the Vee, there was an intake from one cylinder and the exhaust of the other. In the redesign of the engine I have flipped that cylinder around so that both intakes are in the middle of the Vee. This required a layshaft off the crank to reverse the direction of the camchain on that cylinder. I've also included oil pumps, starter motor, alternator, oil filter and internal oil galleries to the engine.

Getting back to the original topic of this post http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I have tried to use as many existing parts as possible. To keep Yamaha smiling, we don't use any standard parts from other competitors. I have used an R6 flywheel, alternator and starter motor, a YZ450F sprag clutch, starter motor geartrain, oil pumps (pressure and 2 scavenge), oil filter, gears and YZ250F crank, bearings, cylinders and heads. All up I have estimated the engine will weigh in the region of 25 to 26kg (no gearbox). The engine is also quite small, the crankcase is less than 250mm wide and similar in depth. It should be able to sit on an A4 piece of paper. It is designed to mate to the transaxle if it gets that far without destroying itself.

By using as many standard parts as possible, I was hoping to drive down the cost of manufacturing the engine. At the moment the V-Single has a CNC machined crankcase costing in the region of NZD$10,000. (I hope I'm allowed to say that). I am trying to redesign the V-Twin to cost less than half that to build. I designed the crankcase to be a cast part so that once the initial investment in the pattern has been made, each successive crankcase should only be $500 to make. (Tip: Don't make your first cast part something complex like a crankcase, especially when you are working by yourself http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) It was designed so all the machining of the casting can be done in house on a manual mill. Apart from that there is no machining that needs to be done on a CNC (although I will be using one).

I guess I will find out how sound all this theory is in practise in the coming months http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. The aim is to have the engine build complete by the Australian comp this year, maybe some bench testing too. Hopefully I will see it in the car in future years with a bit more development work. (I shotgun first drive)

[Will M]

This would make the coolest FSAE engine ever.

troybuiltmodels . com / items / RCS400R .html

[Jay Lawrence]

Ash, I love the idea of your V-Twin! That is the kind of thing that can make FSAE so great (provided it doesn't end up like the Washington V8...). I'm also very impressed that you had it running in 2007, but restrained yourselves and took the time to develop it properly before even considering putting in a car. I hope i can make it to comp this year and hopefully see it. If you can mate it to a less breaky version of your carbon transaxle, and squeeze it in the sexy little chassis you've had the last couple of years: epic win.

@Will M: $6000 for 25hp....

[Will M]

@Jay
And you would need to build your own gearbox, plus packaging would be a nightmare.

But sometimes you just gotta go for style points.

[Rex Chan]

@ V-Twin

We currently run a Honda CBR600RR 03-06, and have bought 2 such engines in the last 2 years for $2500AUD each, from a wreckers. So, a bit less than UTS for the R6, but not cheap either (cheap in FSAE = <$1000; when you only have $20000 cash for the whole car).

I'll respond to your question with some features I'd like in a "dream" FSAE engine, all of which are related to issues with using inline 4 cylinder sportsbike engines for FSAE.

First off, although you mention gears/gearbox and packaging benefits, I'm not sure thats the biggest concern for many FSAE teams. Someone else also mentioned weight, and while lighter is better, the weight of the engine is probably not what lets down FSAE teams either. A CBR600RR block weighs about 55kgs, so cutting 25kgs off that would be great, there are some teams running sub 200kg I4s, and many more running 240+kgs I4s too. All use the same basic engine layout, so the same weight saving can be gained by lighter designs (which does not cost money like an engine).

The biggest issues for a FSAE powerplant, as far as my experienece goes, are in the auxilliary systems, such as lubrication, cooling, and electrical systems.

It would be great to have an integrated dry sump system, with internal pickups, integrated scavenge pumps, oil-air seperators, and oil coolers. Have routing for external oil tanks, so that teams can package to suit their chassis. Since one of the points of having a dry sump is a lower CoG, this custom FSAE engine should have the crank very low, just above the flat sump pan.

A mechanical water pump eliminates the need to use electric pumps, which while are controllable, cannot provide the high pressure of a mechanical device. This allows smaller cooling lines, and smaller radiators.

Since many FSAE cars run lots of electronics, a large alternator would be ideal. Actually, what would be even better would be several external pulleys, so that teams can get engine power for whatever devices they desire (big alternator, fluid pumps, supercharger, etc). Starter motors are also another critical area, with restarting after enduro driver change a problem for some/many teams. FSAE engines also do a lot of starting + stopping, so a sturdy starter helps. Aprilia engines + starters are/were mentioned a lot, and at FSAE-A 2010, USyd had issues.

I'm not sure teams would want a stock/standard FSAE intake/exhaust system, as so much depends on chassis + other vehicle design decisions. A good throttle body/restrictor combo would be good though. We run a 40mm TB, but the last 30-40% is wasted.

With fuel economy becoming worth more points, direct injection may be worth considering. It would make intake design even simpler.

As to the actual block design features, lots of ports to measure temps and pressures would be desired (water temp, oil temp, oil pressure, block/head temps). Actually, if we're getting really fancy, could we have a port in the cylinder head for in-cylinder pressure traces. THAT would be awesome.

Slipper clutches would also be good, so that drivers can brake + downshift without funny noises + car skipping around. If a complete engine package is happening, then integrating provisons for pnuematic gear changing + clutching should be done too. Gear position sensor (via rotary pot or other means) should be accomodated.

I've seen some FSAE engines (Auckland) use a shaft drive with diff. I've also only heard of limited slip diffs with preset/manual control (set clutch pack preload, Torsen ramps, etc). But what about an active diff, actuated via hydraulics (of course, the engine would then need a hydraulic pump too)? You'd control them with electric solenoids, activated using the teams ECU of choice.

I've written way too much, but its fun to dream.

[Rex Chan]

@ V-Twin

One last thing I just thought of: an inline twin would be easier to package the intake/exhaust system. A V-Twin just seems to me to have too many wierd angles in the flow for the number of cylinders it has.

[Spetsnazos]

I have yet to see a wrecked WR450 where the person was willing to sell the engine. They might exist, but they're hard to find. Although I will say that it is not outside the realm of impossible to find a good deal on a full bike and just use the engine.

R6 engines depending on the year seem to run about 800-3k.

[bob.paasch]

Originally posted by Spetsnazos:
I have yet to see a wrecked WR450 where the person was willing to sell the engine. They might exist, but they're hard to find. Although I will say that it is not outside the realm of impossible to find a good deal on a full bike and just use the engine.


We have managed to find two of our CRF450X engines on ebay, they generally run around $1500. The others we bought new as crate motors.

In our decision making process, we didn't see a huge performance or reliability edge between the Yamaha and the Honda. In the end, for us, it came down to local dealer support (and discounts) for parts. We've bought a lot of parts. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[arohit1911]

I was just going to buy Royal Enfield 500 engine[~24bhp(w/o tuned) ~35bhp(after tuning) weight >60kg] when a team member suggested JAWA engines[ http://www.jawa.cz/products.html ], which had me perplexed.
JAWA engine specs : [~500cc,60bhp,30kg ,fabulous power to weight ratio] and are used in dirt racing so I assume they can endure tough conditions. Also as original manufacture sell engine, getting it imported in India is easy and without danger of being cheated.
Only thing is they run on methanol and we have too less info about them. [Does this can be reason for not using it in FSAE? ]

[RANeff]

Those little buggers run on meth. And look like pushrod singles...

[Mbirt]

Originally posted by arohit1911:
I was just going to buy Royal Enfield 500 engine[~24bhp(w/o tuned) ~35bhp(after tuning) weight >60kg] when a team member suggested JAWA engines[ http://www.jawa.cz/products.html ], which had me perplexed.
JAWA engine specs : [~500cc,60bhp,30kg ,fabulous power to weight ratio] and are used in dirt racing so I assume they can endure tough conditions. Also as original manufacture sell engine, getting it imported in India is easy and without danger of being cheated.
Only thing is they run on methanol and we have too less info about them. [Does this can be reason for not using it in FSAE? ] That is a minor reason, but the potential of the powertrain is far greater. The greater obstacles to overcome will be the addition of an electric starter, your EFI implementation on an engine which was once carbureted, and the power transmission from the gearbox-less engine to your tires.

Lots of info is in the service manual here: http://www.jawa.cz/download/engine_889_10_208.pdf You can get it with a 12.5:1 c/r piston, so the fact that most speedway bikes run methanol is no reason to exclude this motor from your search.

[vikram.]

Originally posted by arohit1911:
I was just going to buy Royal Enfield 500 engine[~24bhp(w/o tuned) ~35bhp(after tuning) weight >60kg] when a team member suggested JAWA engines[ http://www.jawa.cz/products.html ], which had me perplexed.
JAWA engine specs : [~500cc,60bhp,30kg ,fabulous power to weight ratio] and are used in dirt racing so I assume they can endure tough conditions. Also as original manufacture sell engine, getting it imported in India is easy and without danger of being cheated.
Only thing is they run on methanol and we have too less info about them. [Does this can be reason for not using it in FSAE? ]
i dont think anyone have pulled out 35 bhp from a 500 efi enfield till now in india..there are many better options in india as far as engines are concerned.. enfield engine is a waste of time

[Zac]

Originally posted by vikram.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by arohit1911:
I was just going to buy Royal Enfield 500 engine[~24bhp(w/o tuned) ~35bhp(after tuning) weight >60kg] when a team member suggested JAWA engines[ http://www.jawa.cz/products.html ], which had me perplexed.
JAWA engine specs : [~500cc,60bhp,30kg ,fabulous power to weight ratio] and are used in dirt racing so I assume they can endure tough conditions. Also as original manufacture sell engine, getting it imported in India is easy and without danger of being cheated.
Only thing is they run on methanol and we have too less info about them. [Does this can be reason for not using it in FSAE? ]
i dont think anyone have pulled out 35 bhp from a 500 efi enfield till now in india..there are many better options in india as far as engines are concerned.. enfield engine is a waste of time </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unless it is readily available and with easy access to spares and support. It seems like a lot of the Indian schools are still struggling with getting a reliable car to competition, getting through tech inspection, and scoring in all of the events. Maybe having an overly ambitious plan for the engine/powertrain is a large part of this?

So what are these much better engines?

[vikram.]

Originally posted by Zac:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by vikram.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by arohit1911:
I was just going to buy Royal Enfield 500 engine[~24bhp(w/o tuned) ~35bhp(after tuning) weight >60kg] when a team member suggested JAWA engines[ http://www.jawa.cz/products.html ], which had me perplexed.
JAWA engine specs : [~500cc,60bhp,30kg ,fabulous power to weight ratio] and are used in dirt racing so I assume they can endure tough conditions. Also as original manufacture sell engine, getting it imported in India is easy and without danger of being cheated.
Only thing is they run on methanol and we have too less info about them. [Does this can be reason for not using it in FSAE? ]
i dont think anyone have pulled out 35 bhp from a 500 efi enfield till now in india..there are many better options in india as far as engines are concerned.. enfield engine is a waste of time </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unless it is readily available and with easy access to spares and support. It seems like a lot of the Indian schools are still struggling with getting a reliable car to competition, getting through tech inspection, and scoring in all of the events. Maybe having an overly ambitious plan for the engine/powertrain is a large part of this?

So what are these much better engines? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

if you'l talk about market ,then ya there are few engine which are readily available like ninja 250r parallel twin with spares available , honda cbr 250r single with spares readily available, and ya enfield is sadly the only manufacturer of 500 cc and less displacement of engine.The Royal Enfield 350 and 500 has been the four-stroke torchbearer in India for ages, still the quality of engines ,the old aged valve train the big bore long stroke engine with heaviest of the crankshaft and many other things makes me feel bad, but ya hope so now the market is improving , so not much of a options available but ya, where there's a will there's a way.

[Z]

Originally posted by arohit1911:
I was just going to buy Royal Enfield 500 engine ... when a team member suggested JAWA engines
arohit,

The JAWA engines have huge potential in FSAE. Note that JAWA also sell separate clutch and two speed + neutral gearboxes, which is all you need. Many different ratios are available. The fact that the gearbox is a separate unit is an advantage because it gives more flexibility of packaging. Their website gives a lot of useful information.

The reason no other teams use JAWA is that no team has yet been smart enough to see the advantages. It is easier for the sheep to follow the flock.

Whether a "newbie" team from India can capitalise on this advantage is unknown. You would have to think from "first principles", which means you would have to think for yourselves.

BTW, do you have any links showing the Royal Enfield engines and specs?

Z

[arohit1911]

Z
Enfield Specification
500cc carbureated : http://fixmybull.com/
500cc fuel injected : http://www.royalenfield.com/im...MANUAL_HGH%20RES.pdf (http://www.royalenfield.com/image/motorcycle/WEB_PDF-Classic_500_OWNERS_MANUAL_HGH%20RES.pdf)

@Karma : The reason for favoring Enfield was its unexploited range of tuning[1st year I am aiming at learning curve of the team]. For Indian market which is mileage frenzy they sell downgraded engine, you can tune it for higher power efficiency also. Secondly you can get ECU(plug and play from "Racedynamics") specifically designed for Enfield 500 fuel injected for $300. And yes weight is the biggest con for Enfield.
Ninja 250 though rated higher bhp give it at very high rpm.

[arohit1911]

Jawa. Yes I am trying to persuade our faculty advisor. But will keep this for next year.
Buggers are too expensive :|

[vikram.]

you'l tune the engine or make the car, both take a same amount of time ?
as if we have diversified tuning market in india.
and ya thats not a downgraded engine compare it with uk cl500 its same.

[vikram.]

i think this is what you are talking about,teams are doing this,for ages enfield has been the touring legends for indians, riding in high and low and now it enters fsae http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
http://www.flickr.com/photos/riteshrawat/6524465385/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/r...5223/in/photostream/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/riteshrawat/6524465223/in/photostream/)

[Z]

Rohit,

I have had a brief look at the Royal Enfield specs, and I reckon it is good enough to get you a top 50% finish in any FSAE comp in the world. Maybe top 20%. BUT, you must do the rest of the car right (which means SIMPLE!!! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif).

The RE is very similar to the JAWA. Heavy roller bearing crank, separate gearbox, etc. So there is a good "succession" plan - start with cheaper, less powerful, RE > sort out problems (mainly with "team" operations, and rest of car design) > then when chassis can take more power fit JAWA.

The RE doesn't seem to have electric start, but Vikram's picture shows RE in an FSAE (?) car. How was this done??? (I'm not familiar with the rules at different comps.)

Remember, the engine is just a "lump of necessary ballast". More important is to get the "total" car design right. I repeat - KISS!!!

(Hint: The suspension push-rod-and-rockers in Vikram's picture are UNJUSTIFIABLE NONSENSE. Why, why, why???!!! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif )

Z

[vikram.]

Z,
The RE have a electric start,both 350 and 500. the engine which you are seeing in the car is the best engine ever developed by royal enfield from last 100 years or so,the first RE to have efi.
The car in the event is not an indian car i suppose,seeing from the members working in it

[Killer]

That is IIT Roorkee. Check out their facebook page.https://www.facebook.com/#!/iitrms.in

[vikram.]

ohh RE sponsored them ..

[arohit1911]

Hi Z
Thanks for the support.
Finally I was able to get my engine team agree to go for RE engine. I have read most of the forum topics but have not been able to figure out very direct relationship between hp and speed.
What I have seen a normal auto rickshaw( www.bajajauto.com/comm_psngr_re2s_specs.asp (http://www.bajajauto.com/comm_psngr_re2s_specs.asp) ) in India have ~8 bhp and carry ~400kg but still they run at 45kmph !
Can you please explain why people in FSAE competition run for more hp when because of non-straight track they have to run their car at average speed of 65kmph, which I guess a 20hp engine can easily do.

[Z]

Originally posted by arohit1911:
Can you please explain why people in FSAE competition run for more hp when ... a 20hp engine can easily do.
Boys will be boys. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Z

[vikram.]

Originally posted by arohit1911:
Hi Z
Thanks for the support.
Finally I was able to get my engine team agree to go for RE engine. I have read most of the forum topics but have not been able to figure out very direct relationship between hp and speed.
What I have seen a normal auto rickshaw( www.bajajauto.com/comm_psngr_re2s_specs.asp (http://www.bajajauto.com/comm_psngr_re2s_specs.asp) ) in India have ~8 bhp and carry ~400kg but still they run at 45kmph !
Can you please explain why people in FSAE competition run for more hp when because of non-straight track they have to run their car at average speed of 65kmph, which I guess a 20hp engine can easily do.

its not about how fast you go in fsae,its all about change in velocity per unit time http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Big Bird]

Absolutely, positively, 100%, 180 degree butt-about wrong

It is not about your change in velocity per unit time in fsae, it is about how fast you go.

Think about it...

[Big Bird]

p.s. I have been speaking to the Roorkee guys this week, regarding how they got their RE engine. For years we have been told by Indian teams that it is next to impossible to source a RE engine, the company does not want to deal with FSAE teams in any way, and subsequently Indian teams must import motors from OS. So I asked what was so special about Roorkee and what did they do to break through with RE. Their strategy with RE was a stroke of genius, and I will share it with you...

They asked.

[Z]

Vikram says;
"Its not about how fast you go in fsae, its all about change in velocity per unit time."

Big Bird says;
"It is not about your change in velocity per unit time in fsae, it is about how fast you go."

Z says;
"Velocity is a VECTOR.
FSAE is all about how fast you change the vector's direction per unit time, while maintaining a high average (possibly constant) magnitude."

Z

[vikram.]

what stroke of genius it was? please share

[Z]

Originally posted by Big Bird:
... Their strategy with RE was a stroke of genius, and I will share it with you...

They asked.

[Kirk Feldkamp]

Originally posted by Big Bird:
It is not about your change in velocity per unit time in fsae, it is about how fast you go.

Wait wait, isn't that called "racing"? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif There are so many teams that don't seem to make actually racing a priority in their racing programs. Time to shoot the engineers and just go run the thing!