Kit Car Engine Masses

[UQ Turbo]

Hi all,

I'm in the process of designing and building a mid-engined kitcar from scratch. I want to keep it around 500kg so am in need of an engine mass. I have a Getrag type 466 (6 speed transaxle) and was going to use a VG30DETT out of a 300ZX but it's simply too heavy.

My current idea is to build up an RB20DET and rev the t*ts off it with a GT30R turbo. About 24psi boost should reach the torque limit of the gearbox... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.en.getrag.de/180/180

Anyway, I've been trying to find a comprehensive list of engines and their massess but haven't had much luck. There was one list I found, but it didn't have any Nissan stuff.

If you know of anything or want to start up a post about building kitcars I'd be very much appreciative!

UQTurbo

[UQ Turbo]

Hi all,

I'm in the process of designing and building a mid-engined kitcar from scratch. I want to keep it around 500kg so am in need of an engine mass. I have a Getrag type 466 (6 speed transaxle) and was going to use a VG30DETT out of a 300ZX but it's simply too heavy.

My current idea is to build up an RB20DET and rev the t*ts off it with a GT30R turbo. About 24psi boost should reach the torque limit of the gearbox... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.en.getrag.de/180/180

Anyway, I've been trying to find a comprehensive list of engines and their massess but haven't had much luck. There was one list I found, but it didn't have any Nissan stuff.

If you know of anything or want to start up a post about building kitcars I'd be very much appreciative!

UQTurbo

[jdstuff]

Soo, how much power are you shooting for? I don't really know much about Nissan, but the Toyota 1.6L 4A-GE is a helluva motor...and it tips the scales at about 110kg.

A friend of mine built his Lotus 7 kit around a junkyard 4A-GE, and made 140hp with nothing more than carbs and a tuned exhaust. Until this year, we've been running the 4A-GE for many many years in the Champ Car (Toyota) Atlantic series. Last year we were still making ~250hp NA with our spec motor, spinning to 10,000rpm. If you start talking turbo, I've seen these little power plants crank out upwards of 400hp!

If you're interested in the 4A-GE, check out http://www.hasselgren.com/ , he's one of the best engine builders in the buisness. He would also probably have many of the parts that you would need to convert this to an in-line mounted motor. Best of luck!

[UQ Turbo]

About 265 kW @ 7500 RPM (350 hp)- it's a realistic goal I think.

10,000 RPM? That's awesome.. Did you have to change the valve springs? What kind of cams are you running?

Meh, must get back to work now...dammit

UQTurbo

[absolutepressure]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jdstuff:
Soo, how much power are you shooting for? I don't really know much about Nissan, but the Toyota 1.6L 4A-GE is a helluva motor...and it tips the scales at about 110kg.

A friend of mine built his Lotus 7 kit around a junkyard 4A-GE, and made 140hp with nothing more than carbs and a tuned exhaust. Until this year, we've been running the 4A-GE for many many years in the Champ Car (Toyota) Atlantic series. Last year we were still making ~250hp NA with our spec motor, spinning to 10,000rpm. If you start talking turbo, I've seen these little power plants crank out upwards of 400hp!

If you're interested in the 4A-GE, check out http://www.hasselgren.com/ , he's one of the best engine builders in the buisness. He would also probably have many of the parts that you would need to convert this to an in-line mounted motor. Best of luck! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Damn, I knew I missed out. I have the 4A-FE, chuggin along at 101hp. Any chance you can send one of those race engines my way?

[Micko..]

http://www.team.net/sol/tech/engine.html (not many nissan tho)

and here are the nissans (dont quote me)

A12 87 kg 192 lbs
A14 93 kg 205 lbs
L18 118 kg 260 lbs
CA18ET 118 kg 260 lbs
QR25DE 121 kg 267 lbs
CA18DET 128 kg 282 lbs
SR20DE 139 kg 306 lbs
SR20DET 149 kg 328 lbs
FJ20ET 166 kg 366 lbs (205 hp)
KA24DE 167 kg 368 lbs (est)

With Transmission:
SR20DET 490 lbs
RB25DET 667 lbs
VG30DET 589 lbs

[UQ Turbo]

Cheers miko,

Appreciate the effort, but I'd already found that data! You'd think that with such a commonly souped up bunch of engines as the RB series, there'd be data somewhere...

UQTurbo

[Bill Kunst]

Okay, this may sound WAY out there in Japan, but...

Why use the Nissan? Or any cast iron pig?

I recently worked on a subaru, and there is a lot to be said about the motors. Motor-ej25
Bottom ends-almost indestructable. The one i worked on had been run out of coolant and seized a cam with absolutely no bottom end damage.

Weight-freakin light. The crank is 13.5" long and weighs a rediculous 20#. not only that, water cooled and could be picked up by myself and a student and put into the car.

Stout on power- 350 horse would be easily a daily driver, 450 within range, 600 maybe a litttle hard to handle.

Another engine- GM's ecotec-bottom end supposed good to 1500hp. This is what I have heard, but for an inline four, it has a girdled block.

One word of advice with any engine, if it is open deck, have it closed up. There are shops that do the subaru's so that they don't blow head gaskets, but this is a problem with most open deck engines.

Good luck.

[UQ Turbo]

Hmm, I did think about the boxer Subaru engines - they'd be good for low CG too. I believe I'll think about this some more!

UQTurbo

[jdstuff]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by UQ Turbo:
About 265 kW @ 7500 RPM (350 hp)- it's a realistic goal I think.

10,000 RPM? That's awesome.. Did you have to change the valve springs? What kind of cams are you running?

Meh, must get back to work now...dammit

UQTurbo </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, the cams were definately Paul Hasselgren's own brew....he has a guy not too far from his shop do all of his custom grinds for him. I can't remember what springs he was running off the top of my head, though.

Absolute, what do you have your 4A-FE in...Celica, kit car? Anyway, check this little gem out....one of the guys at Hasselgren built it out of all Hasselgren/Atlantic spare parts.

Hasselgren's Website Feature (http://www.hasselgren.com/drift.htm)
Web Gallery (http://www.hasselgren.com/2006/images/AE86/index.html)

[PPAM20]

I second jdstuff opinion on the 4ag - to a point. They are VERRY strong and light. In club racing, Honda and rx-7 motors are legal but cant get the same performance (rx7 close). If you can get parts from an atlantic motor builder, parts can be reasonable because things like rods and pistons are life cycled out quickly. For instance 10 hrs is typical for pistons at 9500/9700. At 7500/8000 they should be quite adequate provided you can get the compression down. Cams are probably a no go - with carbs, they dont come in till 7k. The larger 1.8l 4a-- something from a MR2 might be an option.

In a lotus seven street car, my personal favorite is the Mazda MXR (MZR?)/ Ford Duretec motors. Extremely light (220lbs), 2.3l with a WIDE power band for the street and reasonably capable of 180 to 200 @ 7000 rpm non turbo hp. In sevens, thats beyound the limit of street tires so a turbo (along with the weight and drivablity problems) is not an issue. A heavier car with more top end might justify a turbo. The motor is the next Atlantic motor and I think they are saying about 300hp @ 8500 and 20 hrs motor life - significant improvements over the Toyotas 250@9800 and 8-12 hrs life.

Good luck

[absolutepressure]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Originally posted by jdstuff:
Absolute, what do you have your 4A-FE in...Celica, kit car? Anyway, check this little gem out....one of the guys at Hasselgren built it out of all Hasselgren/Atlantic spare parts.

Hasselgren's Website Feature (http://www.hasselgren.com/drift.htm)
Web Gallery (http://www.hasselgren.com/2006/images/AE86/index.html) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, a stock (well except for some "appearance modifications") '90 corolla. Duwe was kind enough to put a picture up for everyone to see. http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/648600998/m/50110395131

But yeah, that car reminds me of Kyenchui's(Or whatever the drift king's name is) car. Do you have anymore spare parts that I could build a car with? Having a 20v GE would be pretty sweet.

[Bill Kunst]

I love the 4-age. In fact, I almost bought a ae-86 corolla hatchback. I was in love with the car, the engine, everything. It was just out of the price that I would pay.

As for the engine itself, in street car POWER AND RELIABILITY, there really is no replacement for displacement. The longevity of a 350hp 4age would be rediculously low for a street driven car. On the otherhand, an EJ25, which already has 300hp would have a much longer life at 350hp, as well as being lighter. This is not to mention the intercooler which is mounted ABOVE the engine (changing this yields great results), and the already turbocharged engine takes boost very nicely.

Just a list:

Lite as hell.
Low cG
Low rotational inertia
Already very close to HP wanted.
Reliable (severely girdled in H config)

The 4-age will never be as light, have as much displacement, have as low of a cG, and from what you say, it will not be as reliable.

But, I do love the 4-age.
Bill

[NetKev92]

The new MZR mills and the Duratec are good for a bit more than 200 already if you get one with 2.3 liter displacement. Cosworth tuned one streetable version for 260 hp and they have engines for sale up to 300 hp normally aspirated. They're pricey, but there's potential. You can find companies already selling IRTBs, cams, cnc head work, and a variety of other special parts. The engine should also make itself very common in a range of Fords and Mazdas

http://www.cosworth.com/shop_range.php?row=0&f_id=&level=2&typeid=40

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PPAM20:

In a lotus seven street car, my personal favorite is the Mazda MXR (MZR?)/ Ford Duretec motors. Extremely light (220lbs), 2.3l with a WIDE power band for the street and reasonably capable of 180 to 200 @ 7000 rpm non turbo hp. In sevens, thats beyound the limit of street tires so a turbo (along with the weight and drivablity problems) is not an issue. A heavier car with more top end might justify a turbo. The motor is the next Atlantic motor and I think they are saying about 300hp @ 8500 and 20 hrs motor life - significant improvements over the Toyotas 250@9800 and 8-12 hrs life.

Good luck </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Bill Kunst]

Kevin,
I think is imperative that you realize that price plays a major role in a decision like this. $13k for a 250hp rated motor versus $3k 300hp motor(taking a guess on junk yard pricing for a ej25 out of a STI, basing this off a nonturbo for $1500). This is a huge price difference, and it is highly possible that you would be looking at a significant reliability difference. Oh yeah, what about gas mileage?

Having a cossie would be cool, but a scooby would definitely have an advantage in lbs, $, and HP.


Bill

[UQ Turbo]

Hey guys,

I've been doing a lot of research and have decided on an RB20DET. The EJ20 was looking really promising, but it all comes down to cost and reliability in the end. Apparently you need a closed-deck block above 350HP? I also like the idea of revving the crap out of an engine with a big turbo. Totally undriveable!

Speaking of engines, we finally found a trasmission for our SAE car that can handle the torque we're putting out! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=01x6speedgetrag0060ai.jpg

UQTurbo

[VFR750R]

UQ, RB is a great choice and I'm sure your aware but maybe not everyone here is, it's the same block as the RB25 and RB26 so they're really isn't a weight savings running the 2.0 and cost between the 2.0 and 2.5 are similar. I have heard that the 2.5's being newer are a little bit better of a motor for most applications, and more reliable. Also, they are heavy and lonnnnng.

Good luck, sounds like a hell of a project, keep us updated!

[UQ Turbo]

Well it's been a while...but the project is back on track! After the stress of the Aussie comp the chassis guy and I are getting down to business.

Eventually went for the SR20DET - am doing the rebuild now. The Getrag 01X transaxle is torque limited to 380 N.m, so we're going to soup up the SR20 to about that (around 300kW @ engine).

Anyone else planning on building a kitcar over the next few years? Would be cool to get a few happening then race them...oneday. Could be called Formula Postgrad...haha.

Next big mission is to mount the engine to the box - will post pics up after thats done. Then we can finalise our preliminary suspension and dimensional design. Anyone know a really bad reason why we shouldn't put the lower wishbones almost touching in the middle?

UQ Turbo

[rjwoods77]

Should have gone LSX engine. 60lbs more and has way better sound,driveability and reliability that an sr20det. Its kind of funny. All the import kids here in the states used to scoff at the use of a 2 liter engine over a 1.6 or 1.8. Now everyone is sucking a honda k series engine tit (2liter head with 2.4 block) not to mention the 2.5 subaru engine. People are dumping rotories for lightweight v8's in mazdas and the LSX engine in a 240 is really starting to catch interest. Is it any secret why the top level drift comp. cars all have big american motors? Big engine in a small car. Shelby did it best and that thing/concept still owns almost every modern car even today.

[Chris Boyden]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">. Is it any secret why the top level drift comp. cars all have big american motors? Big engine in a small car. Shelby did it best and that thing/concept still owns almost every modern car even today </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LS7 would be nice

[UQ Turbo]

That all sounds fine, apart from the total lack of availability of those engines in Australia... plus the SR20 has a massive aftermarket following and it was pretty cheap to pick up ($1650 AUD compared to say an S2000 engine for $6000).

Also, I would have gone for an RB26 or a small V8 if the gearbox wasn't limited to 380 Nm. With the SR20 in a moderate state of tune we can max out the gearbox and have a relatively light engine as well.

The whole drivetrain is only about 220kg - which leaves lots of room for out goal of between 500-600 kg overall (1100-1300 lbs).

UQTurbo

[ad]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by UQ Turbo:
That all sounds fine, apart from the total lack of availability of those engines in Australia... plus the SR20 has a massive aftermarket following and it was pretty cheap to pick up ($1650 AUD compared to say an S2000 engine for $6000).

Also, I would have gone for an RB26 or a small V8 if the gearbox wasn't limited to 380 Nm. With the SR20 in a moderate state of tune we can max out the gearbox and have a relatively light engine as well.

The whole drivetrain is only about 220kg - which leaves lots of room for out goal of between 500-600 kg overall (1100-1300 lbs).

UQTurbo </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Got any pictures of the progress to date?

[rjwoods77]

UQ,

I here you. You can definitely do well with that engine. Isnt ever V8 holden engine an LSX. Our GTO(your commadore) has one in it shipped right from AUS. And just for your knoledge an t56 tranny weighs 115lbs and a LSX weighs 400lbs with alternator,starter,full intake and exhaust manifolds. Its common knowledge that you can swap in and LSX and t56 tranny and be at the same weight as a k24 with all the turbo equipment in a 240sx. You have to pop in a R200 diff but that is no biggie. Just figured I throw that out. You going to run a spool? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Parker]

I see that nobody has mentioned any of the Honda motors; almost all of them are lightweight. B-series setups can be had for a bit cheaper now(and the aftermarket is there), and the K-series are STOUT little motors that should be able to make a good 300+ hp on less boost than you are talking about.

[Kurt Bilinski]

You really should consider buying my book, which virtually does what you're doing. The link's in my sig.

[UQ Turbo]

Some update pics for those who are interested:

Redtop
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z135/tardsncripples/SR20original006.jpg

The style we're aiming for (no this isn't part of the update - I wish!)
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z135/tardsncripples/caparotop.jpg

Rebuild Stuff
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z135/tardsncripples/170607001.jpg

Hone job
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z135/tardsncripples/170607002.jpg

Shiny Parts - JE Pistons
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z135/tardsncripples/170607003.jpg

It was either a turbo or this...fresh from Taiwan, complete with Engrish instructions!
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z135/tardsncripples/170607006.jpg